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IFR class E



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 26th 05, 04:18 AM
mindenpilot
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Default IFR class E

I'm VFR and have some questions about IFR.
I've been toying with the idea of pursuing an IFR rating, especially due to
the recent (uncharacteristic) fog.
I've only flown real in IMC once.
I was at a class D airport, and the CFI got clearance before takeoff.
He got all kinds of instructions for going up through the soup.

I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based at
in Minden, NV.
For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
allowed to take off?
If so, what would be the procedure?
How would you ensure separation from other traffic?
The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.

Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
ILS, etc).
What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III


  #2  
Old January 26th 05, 04:34 AM
Peter R.
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Default

mindenpilot ) wrote:

I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based at
in Minden, NV.
For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
allowed to take off?
If so, what would be the procedure?


The communication note for Minden reads (area code left out in the event
of some Usenet telephone number spam harvester, if there is such a
thing):

FOR CD/P CALL RENO APCH CTL ON (xxx) 348-8840

Thus, you would call this number while on the ground after your
preflight to receive your clearance. Assuming there was not an IFR
aircraft approaching to land, Reno approach would issue you a clearance
on the ground with a void time. This means you have until that time to
take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.

During this block of time, the airport is yours. No other aircraft can
take off IFR until you do.

How would you ensure separation from other traffic?


If the field were IFR, the system restricts other IFR aircraft from
taking off until you do. Again, if an aircraft were on an IFR
approach, it would have to land and call to cancel the IFR flight plan
before Reno would issue you the clearance to depart.


The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.


Take off, follow the departure/obstacle clearance procedure, then fly
your clearance. As soon as able, make contact with Reno. Even if they
cannot pick you up you might be able to establish radio contact with
them to let them know you are off and climbing.

Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
ILS, etc).
What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?


Reno would vector you to the IAF, then clear you for the approach. At
that point, you are on your own to fly the published approach to the
best of your ability.

Once on the ground, you must immediately call Reno on a land line to
cancel your IFR flight plan so that a) they know you landed safely and
b) they can release the airport for other IFR operations.


--
Peter






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  #3  
Old January 26th 05, 04:37 AM
Peter R.
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Default

Peter R. ) wrote:

This means you have until that time to
take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.


I made a mistake here. I should have typed: This means that you have
until that time to take off and make radio contact with Reno approach.

Big difference between that wording and Reno making radar contact, since
it is possible to make radio contact well before radar contact.


--
Peter






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  #4  
Old January 26th 05, 01:23 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Peter R. ) wrote:

This means you have until that time to
take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.


I made a mistake here. I should have typed: This means that you have
until that time to take off and make radio contact with Reno approach.

Big difference between that wording and Reno making radar contact, since
it is possible to make radio contact well before radar contact.


It means that you have until that time to take off, neither radar or radio
cantact is required by that time.


  #5  
Old January 26th 05, 02:00 PM
Peter R.
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Default

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Peter R. ) wrote:

This means you have until that time to
take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.


I made a mistake here. I should have typed: This means that you have
until that time to take off and make radio contact with Reno approach.

Big difference between that wording and Reno making radar contact, since
it is possible to make radio contact well before radar contact.


It means that you have until that time to take off, neither radar or radio
cantact is required by that time.


Oh, OK, so I was wrong on both counts. I guess I have been
building in a healthy departure cushion.




--
Peter






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  #6  
Old January 26th 05, 04:40 AM
BTIZ
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Default

I'll let the Reno/Minden pilots answer the particulars for that airport...

but in general, at an airport out side ClassD, you'll need to get an IFR
clearance from the controlling agency, whether that be Reno Approach or
Center. Normally a phone or radio relay through a FSS. My Minden approach
plates tell me Reno Appch Control is in charge.

Remember, a ClassD tower is a VFR tower, he had to get the IFR clearance
from the local IFR ATC facility, rather it be an approach control or Air
Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC).

ok, so I looked up MEV in my approach charts: I only see GPS approaches into
Minden (MEV), the minimum descent altitude is 6220MSL (1494 AGL), so... a
smart minded IFR pilot would not depart into a 300ft ceiling knowing he
could not get back to MEV in an emergency.. Even the ILS approach into RNO
has an 1100ft AGL Decision Altitude, so that would not be a suitable
situation/alternate on a 300ft day. But there is nothing stopping a Part91
IFR pilot from departing into a 300ft overcast in this situation.

As for Radar coverage from ATC.. not an issue, you need to be able to, and
will be expected to fly anywhere without radar coverage. ATC using radar
makes it nicer to run traffic closer together and handle more aircraft than
using the tried and true manual separation methods. ATC will be blocking all
IFR traffic up to the minimum IFR altitude that you are cleared to until
they can see you, and if they cant see you (radar failure or your
transponder failure), then all traffic stays above until you get "found" and
have cleared the area.

Now, the weather issue, snow on the ground? fog in the area (warm air over
cold ground). What is the outside temperature and where is the freezing
level... does the cloud layer go to the freezing level or higher?.. flying
your Musketeer SuperIII into a freezing layer would not be good.

It is difficult to maintain IFR proficiency even down here in LAS single
engine with a Piper Arrow or Bonanza. When the IFR rolls in, the minimum IFR
altitude is well into or above the freezing level. The lowest minimum IFR
altitude (on airways) around the Mustang VOR is 10,000MSL.

I came back VFR from Cal City to VGT at 9,500MSL through the MOAs and the
OAT was 36F. If IFR were required, long way around and minimum IFR altitude
on the airway is 12,000 or 14,000ft.

But getting an instrument rating is a smart thing to do, but not always a
save all.

BT
(former ZBOS ARTCC)

"mindenpilot" wrote in message
...
I'm VFR and have some questions about IFR.
I've been toying with the idea of pursuing an IFR rating, especially due
to the recent (uncharacteristic) fog.
I've only flown real in IMC once.
I was at a class D airport, and the CFI got clearance before takeoff.
He got all kinds of instructions for going up through the soup.

I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based
at in Minden, NV.
For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
allowed to take off?
If so, what would be the procedure?
How would you ensure separation from other traffic?
The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.

Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
ILS, etc).
What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III



  #7  
Old January 26th 05, 04:47 AM
Peter R.
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Default

BTIZ ) wrote:

BT
(former ZBOS ARTCC)


Really? That's the first time I read you were a former controller in
the few years I have been reading these groups.

I have an additional respect for you, as I tried, but failed, to become
a controller in the late 80s.

--
Peter






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  #8  
Old January 26th 05, 06:09 AM
BTIZ
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Default

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
BTIZ ) wrote:

BT
(former ZBOS ARTCC)


Really? That's the first time I read you were a former controller in
the few years I have been reading these groups.

I have an additional respect for you, as I tried, but failed, to become
a controller in the late 80s.

--
Peter


Thanx Peter... it does not get out too often.. my background..

Iron Worker, ARTCC (pre 1980), MAJ USAF B-1 (RETIRED), had to go fly instead
of control.. not happy on the ground... Instrument, Commercial ASEL, AMEL,
Glider, and CFI-G
BT


  #9  
Old January 26th 05, 05:10 AM
mindenpilot
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Posts: n/a
Default

Now, the weather issue, snow on the ground? fog in the area (warm air over
cold ground). What is the outside temperature and where is the freezing
level... does the cloud layer go to the freezing level or higher?.. flying
your Musketeer SuperIII into a freezing layer would not be good.


Thanks to all for the responses.
I picked a hypothetical situation.
Actual conditions have actually been just as you described above, but with
fog at the surface, and visiblity at 1/4 SM, so I wouldn't even be able to
see the other end of the runway!

I was citing conditions I saw in both Dallas and the SF Bay area.
Thin layer of clouds (maybe 200 ft thick) at about 300-500 AGL, then
beautiful on top.

I should have been more clear, stating that I wouldn't even be able to get
radio contact with Reno until 3000-3500 AGL.
Currently, I can't even get ATIS until I'm about 3000' AGL.

Anyway, I think you've answered my questions..now I have one more.
Since the only approach in Minden is GPS, does it make sense to get an
IFR-certified GPS?
Anyone have any preferences.
I don't want to put a $10K upgrade in ;-)

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III


  #10  
Old January 26th 05, 05:15 AM
Mike Rapoport
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Posts: n/a
Default


"mindenpilot" wrote in message
...
Now, the weather issue, snow on the ground? fog in the area (warm air
over cold ground). What is the outside temperature and where is the
freezing level... does the cloud layer go to the freezing level or
higher?.. flying your Musketeer SuperIII into a freezing layer would not
be good.


Thanks to all for the responses.
I picked a hypothetical situation.
Actual conditions have actually been just as you described above, but with
fog at the surface, and visiblity at 1/4 SM, so I wouldn't even be able to
see the other end of the runway!

I was citing conditions I saw in both Dallas and the SF Bay area.
Thin layer of clouds (maybe 200 ft thick) at about 300-500 AGL, then
beautiful on top.

I should have been more clear, stating that I wouldn't even be able to get
radio contact with Reno until 3000-3500 AGL.
Currently, I can't even get ATIS until I'm about 3000' AGL.

Anyway, I think you've answered my questions..now I have one more.
Since the only approach in Minden is GPS, does it make sense to get an
IFR-certified GPS?
Anyone have any preferences.
I don't want to put a $10K upgrade in ;-)

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

Read my other post. You might want to spend some time talking to Bill Hutt
or someone else who has flown a lot in the area about the utility of flying
IMC in your current airplane. Basically it isn't enough airplane for IMC
flying in that area. Even a heavy twin like a 421 is marginal.

Mike
MU-2


 




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