Initial Training Help

[chris]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I was inquiring about traing for a rotorcraft license. Initially for a
private license and eventually going commercial. I'm a former flight
paramedic and wanted to get into the pilot seat, however the pilots I
work with have all received their training in the military so for a
civilian like me they arent much help other than a great resource..

I was wondering about anyones thoughts or ideas on receiving training.
Do the Mom n Pop shops provide adequate training and experience? or
would I receive more/better from a larger company? I know mostly it
depends on me.
Would it be better or helop any to obtain my private pilot license 1st
then "convert" to the rotary? Has anyone had experience with this
process?

Any and all thoughts and/or ideas would be greatly appreciated..!
Thanks in advance..

Chris
Soon to be student..

[Skyking]

(chris) wrote in message >...
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> I was inquiring about traing for a rotorcraft license. Initially for a
> private license and eventually going commercial. I'm a former flight
> paramedic and wanted to get into the pilot seat, however the pilots I
> work with have all received their training in the military so for a
> civilian like me they arent much help other than a great resource..
>
> I was wondering about anyones thoughts or ideas on receiving training.
> Do the Mom n Pop shops provide adequate training and experience? or
> would I receive more/better from a larger company? I know mostly it
> depends on me.
> Would it be better or helop any to obtain my private pilot license 1st
> then "convert" to the rotary? Has anyone had experience with this
> process?
>
Due to costs, it would be wise to get your Airplane, Commercial-Instrument
or at leat Commercial before working on the Rotorcraft Rating.
You can read FAR Part 61 for the hourly requirements.

Oh, BTW, "Catch 22", once you obtain that coveted rating all of the
ptoential employers will want you to have logged thousands of hours
that you won't have.

Good luck,

Skyking

[[email protected]]

Once you have a fixed wing PPL, the FAA min to get a rotorcraft rating
is only 16 hours. The catch is that most of schools I have looked at
will only credit you 10 hours toward your 40 total required for
rotorcraft. That leave a minimum of 30 that they want you to have in
a real helicopter.

Dennis.


(Skyking) wrote:

> (chris) wrote in message >...
> > Ladies and Gentlemen,
> > I was inquiring about traing for a rotorcraft license. Initially for a
> > private license and eventually going commercial. I'm a former flight
> > paramedic and wanted to get into the pilot seat, however the pilots I
> > work with have all received their training in the military so for a
> > civilian like me they arent much help other than a great resource..
> >
> > I was wondering about anyones thoughts or ideas on receiving training.
> > Do the Mom n Pop shops provide adequate training and experience? or
> > would I receive more/better from a larger company? I know mostly it
> > depends on me.
> > Would it be better or helop any to obtain my private pilot license 1st
> > then "convert" to the rotary? Has anyone had experience with this
> > process?
> >
> Due to costs, it would be wise to get your Airplane, Commercial-Instrument
> or at leat Commercial before working on the Rotorcraft Rating.
> You can read FAR Part 61 for the hourly requirements.
>
> Oh, BTW, "Catch 22", once you obtain that coveted rating all of the
> ptoential employers will want you to have logged thousands of hours
> that you won't have.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Skyking

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Andrew Crane]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Once you have a fixed wing PPL, the FAA min to get a rotorcraft rating
> is only 16 hours. The catch is that most of schools I have looked at
> will only credit you 10 hours toward your 40 total required for
> rotorcraft. That leave a minimum of 30 that they want you to have in
> a real helicopter.
>

If someone can pass their test after 16 hours or even 30, they'd be one in a
million though. In which case this isn't really that much of a catch...


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welcome

[Bart]

Transition to rotorcraft is not like a new type rating. I really wish
people would stop promulgating this myth. It is NOT faster or cheaper
to get your ASEL stuff first. You can not be a safe helicopter pilot
with only 16 hours in one. Also, transitoning from fixed wing
to rotorcraft requires you to un-learn some nasty "instinctual"
behaviors that might get you killed if you apply them.

If you need to be convinced of this just take a quick lesson where
you land the helicopter on a dolly on the leeward side of some
buildings on a gusty day. That'll shrink your sphincter and ego
enough to ensure you'll want a few more lessons before taking a
checkride. Part 61 does not govern the laws of physics or physiology.

Bart


Skyking wrote:

> Due to costs, it would be wise to get your Airplane, Commercial-Instrument
> or at leat Commercial before working on the Rotorcraft Rating.
> You can read FAR Part 61 for the hourly requirements.
>
> Oh, BTW, "Catch 22", once you obtain that coveted rating all of the
> ptoential employers will want you to have logged thousands of hours
> that you won't have.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Skyking

[[email protected]]

"Andrew Crane" > wrote:

> If someone can pass their test after 16 hours or even 30, they'd be one in a
> million though. In which case this isn't really that much of a catch...
>

Thats the legal requirement - not the practical requirement. I am,
myself, currently using fixed wing instruction to learn about
navigation, airport operations, communication, traffic patterns and
other things common to both. However, it is a total, absolute myth
that there is any similarity between controlling the two aircraft
beyond the fact that they both fly. I had been told that flying a
stick plane was similar to a helicopter in straight & level flight,
but after doing this, I learned it is not true.

However, I have been hearing more and more people claim that they have
been using simulators to greatly reduce the number of real helicopter
hours. I was able to hover in 1.5 hours. I thought that was good
until another guy was able to do it on his introductory flight after
15 minutes thanks to a lot of practice on sims.

I have yet to see a really decent helicopter sim, but most of the
better ones are good enough to help you out a lot even if they aren't
perfect. Obviously, even when they don't count towards your hours
(some do), they are far cheaper than a real helicopter and a lot
safer. If a sim can cause you to master an operation in a real
helicopter faster, then it is saving you the money you would have
spent in the real helicopter doing the same thing.

In short, I believe it is possible to get the HPPL in 30 real hours
with the aid of simulators and a background in fixed wing.

Dennis H.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Davdirect]

I'll put in my 2 cents worth as well since I'm in the midst of the same kind of
journey as you. I'm age 40 (too old for military) and got the bug at work (TV
Station) when we got a helicopter and I flew as a passenger/photographer. My
brother in law is a professional pilot (Citations) and strongly advised me
(wisely so) that if what I wanted was to fly helicopters, to train to fly them
and not try to transition. There are too many things to unlearn. There is
even a robinson safety notice about accidents caused by fixed wingers doing the
wrong thing. I'm about 30hrs into this and so far its going well, I've gotten
the written out of the way pretty easily, and I don't regret the decision to go
with rotorcraft training. By the way, I'm at a small place with only a
handfull of helicopters and the one on one attention from an instructor with
thousands of hours and an A&P IA license is worth every penny.
Dave
davdirect

[Stu Fields]

Bart is so right that the only way he could be so right is to have the
Tshirt, Shorts, Sox , anc Jock Strap for having Been There and Done That. I
soloed my Safari and was flying about OK as long as nothing went wrong. One
day it did and I reacted like a well trained fixed wing pilot and nearly got
killed. There certainly are some serious fixed wing trainings that need to
be erased the moment you start up with the collective. If I had done what I
know now to be the proper response, I wouldn't have rolled my Safari up in a
very little ball and dinged my body up. I've done the add-on training and
still feel like I got a license to learn and have to be very careful. I
taught myself to fly a Benson Gyrocopter in the 60's when dual was not
available. I never dinged a thing. The helicopter is another story. I
can't imagine even after having several beers teaching myself to fly a
helo. I'm sure that I don't have enough dual to achieve the safety level I
would like to have yet. I have more than 200hrs. now. The only 16hr helo
pilots that I would ride with are Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover and I would
have a dialogue with them first.
Stu Fields.
"Bart" > wrote in message
...
> Transition to rotorcraft is not like a new type rating. I really wish
> people would stop promulgating this myth. It is NOT faster or cheaper
> to get your ASEL stuff first. You can not be a safe helicopter pilot
> with only 16 hours in one. Also, transitoning from fixed wing
> to rotorcraft requires you to un-learn some nasty "instinctual"
> behaviors that might get you killed if you apply them.
>
> If you need to be convinced of this just take a quick lesson where
> you land the helicopter on a dolly on the leeward side of some
> buildings on a gusty day. That'll shrink your sphincter and ego
> enough to ensure you'll want a few more lessons before taking a
> checkride. Part 61 does not govern the laws of physics or physiology.
>
> Bart
>
>
> Skyking wrote:
>
> > Due to costs, it would be wise to get your Airplane,
Commercial-Instrument
> > or at leat Commercial before working on the Rotorcraft Rating.
> > You can read FAR Part 61 for the hourly requirements.
> >
> > Oh, BTW, "Catch 22", once you obtain that coveted rating all of the
> > ptoential employers will want you to have logged thousands of hours
> > that you won't have.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Skyking
>

[Steve R.]

"Stu Fields" > wrote in message
...
> Bart is so right that the only way he could be so right is to have the
> Tshirt, Shorts, Sox , anc Jock Strap for having Been There and Done That.
I
> soloed my Safari and was flying about OK as long as nothing went wrong.
One
> day it did and I reacted like a well trained fixed wing pilot and nearly
got
> killed. There certainly are some serious fixed wing trainings that need
to
> be erased the moment you start up with the collective. If I had done what
I
> know now to be the proper response, I wouldn't have rolled my Safari up in
a
> very little ball and dinged my body up. I've done the add-on training and
> still feel like I got a license to learn and have to be very careful. I
> taught myself to fly a Benson Gyrocopter in the 60's when dual was not
> available. I never dinged a thing. The helicopter is another story. I
> can't imagine even after having several beers teaching myself to fly a
> helo. I'm sure that I don't have enough dual to achieve the safety level
I
> would like to have yet. I have more than 200hrs. now. The only 16hr helo
> pilots that I would ride with are Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover and I would
> have a dialogue with them first.
> Stu Fields.

Hi Stu,

Interesting response to Bart's comments. Out of curiosity, would you care
to elaborate on the error(s) you made with your Safari? If you'd rather
not, that's Ok, but I "am" curious! ;-)

Your comments on teaching one's self to fly a helicopter is also well taken.
Kind of put's in perspective what Igor Sikorski did when he taught himself
to fly "and" design a helicopter all at the same time, doesn't it? :-o

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Skyking]

"Andrew Crane" > wrote in message >...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Once you have a fixed wing PPL, the FAA min to get a rotorcraft rating
> > is only 16 hours. The catch is that most of schools I have looked at
> > will only credit you 10 hours toward your 40 total required for
> > rotorcraft. That leave a minimum of 30 that they want you to have in
> > a real helicopter.
> >
>
> If someone can pass their test after 16 hours or even 30, they'd be one in a
> million though. In which case this isn't really that much of a catch...

Well, I had my CPL,Multi,CFI and transitioned to Comm. Rotor-Helo,CFI-Helo
in less than 50 hours. Of course maybe my total time and experience may
have had something to do with it. I allocated two weeks for this project.

Skyking

[Bart]

Skyking wrote:
> Well, I had my CPL,Multi,CFI and transitioned to Comm. Rotor-Helo,CFI-Helo
> in less than 50 hours. Of course maybe my total time and experience may
> have had something to do with it. I allocated two weeks for this project.
>
> Skyking

Having no prior flight experience they cut me loose at about 16 hours in
a million dollar helicopter. I have little doubt that I could have
passed an FAA exam at that point as well. None of it means diddley.
When I soloed that helicopter I had three things going for me;
fear, pride, and little knowledge of my limitations. In hindsight
I can't believe that at the skill level I had then that I had the balls
to let them make me solo.

A couple years and a few hundred hours later I went back and took a week
long "Advanced Airmanship" class where they teach real-world emergency
procs. and decision making (eg. 0 A/S 300ft autos). The IP and I didn't
hit it off at a personal level, which was good because he really went
out of his way to demonstrate how little I really knew. The guy really
knew his stuff though, and I learned a whole lot more and gained a new
appreciation for how much I still didn't know. At one point during
this experience I seriously botched a recovery and we found ourselves
engine-out at 15-20 ft flying sideways at about 50 knots. I thought for
sure we were gonna ball it up. Nope, he turned it into a perfectly
executed no-run landing. The real lesson was that as long as the machine
was operating within my limitations it was all-good and I looked and
flew like an expert helicopter pilot, but if events compounded that
took me outside my range of experience then it could get really exciting
really fast.

The reason I came down so hard on the guy who said you could do it in 16
hours was related to something I'm going through right now; A friend of
mine who has way-way more money than brains is a collector of type
ratings and old warbirds. He's somehow managed to get people to sign
him off on some seriously powerful hardware which he then goes out and
buys. He's also pretty arrogant and cocksure esp. when everyone who's
flown with him says that he's a terrible pilot and his attitude is gonna
kill him. ( I've personally seen him take off 3 times with the speed
brakes on in his most recent 1800 HP acquisition. )

The only rating this guy doesn't have now is "Rotorcraft." So the other
day he walks up and tells me (brags actually) that he's gonna go out and
buy a MD500 and get his Rotorcraft ticket. He also says he should be
able to do it in less than a week. Sure enough, a couple days later
I see him flying backwards 200agl with a MD500 operator/CFI who I'm
guessing needed the money badly. Now I'm absolutely sure that my friend
is gonna go out and do exactly what he said. The trouble is that the
skills required to pass the FAA exam are so marginal that I'm sure he'll
pass in the minimum time. I'm also equally sure that he'll make some
kind of mistake equivalent to taking off with speed brakes. Hopefully
it happens early and the gods are smiling on him enough to just scare
the living crap outa him.

Bart

[LM Scott]

"Bart" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Skyking wrote:
> > Well, I had my CPL,Multi,CFI and transitioned to Comm.
Rotor-Helo,CFI-Helo
> > in less than 50 hours. Of course maybe my total time and experience may
> > have had something to do with it. I allocated two weeks for this
project.
> >
> > Skyking


>
>
> The only rating this guy doesn't have now is "Rotorcraft." So the other
> day he walks up and tells me (brags actually) that he's gonna go out and
> buy a MD500 and get his Rotorcraft ticket. He also says he should be
> able to do it in less than a week. Sure enough, a couple days later
>
> Bart
>
> Thanks for a very interesting post Bart! Could you tell us how much
harder an MD 500 is to fly than some other turbine ships? I understand the
Jetranger is very forgiving and the MD 500 is on the other end of the
spectrum. How close to right am I?<G> Thanks again. Larry

[Stu Fields]

Steve: The orginal method of tracking the blade on the Safar was to loosen
the pinch bolt on the pitch arm where it contacted the blade grip and slip
the pitch arm and re-tighten and torque the pinch bolt. The bolt got
installed and safetied but not properly torqued. We discovered this in a
post crash investigation. At any rate, there I was with about 30hrs Total
Helo time at lift off and about 40' and 40mph when the pitch arm slipped,
the blade went out of track(pitching up) and the ship began shaking hard
enough so that I couldn't read the tach. I decided to put it down and my
fixed wing training had me reducing the throttle. Almost instantly the
rotor speed decayed, the ship yawed left inspite of full pedal and rolled
left inspite of full opposite cyclic and became a Lawn Dart. The two
seconds I had to analyze the problem were not enough. I have since
ingrained it into my head (I hope) that when everything turns to crap:KEEP
THE ROTOR SPEED.
Like Bart said, up until something ocurred outside of my skill level, I
looked like a pro. I could hover like an angel, play with the traffic cones
etc. As long as every thing worked right I was OK. Ididn't have the skills
to handle the problem I encountered. BTW the present pitch arm desigh has
an indicating ball that will not allow the pitch arm to slip. The tracking
adjustments are done with the pitch link and it's opposing threaded rod
ends.
"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stu Fields" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Bart is so right that the only way he could be so right is to have the
> > Tshirt, Shorts, Sox , anc Jock Strap for having Been There and Done
That.
> I
> > soloed my Safari and was flying about OK as long as nothing went wrong.
> One
> > day it did and I reacted like a well trained fixed wing pilot and nearly
> got
> > killed. There certainly are some serious fixed wing trainings that need
> to
> > be erased the moment you start up with the collective. If I had done
what
> I
> > know now to be the proper response, I wouldn't have rolled my Safari up
in
> a
> > very little ball and dinged my body up. I've done the add-on training
and
> > still feel like I got a license to learn and have to be very careful. I
> > taught myself to fly a Benson Gyrocopter in the 60's when dual was not
> > available. I never dinged a thing. The helicopter is another story. I
> > can't imagine even after having several beers teaching myself to fly a
> > helo. I'm sure that I don't have enough dual to achieve the safety
level
> I
> > would like to have yet. I have more than 200hrs. now. The only 16hr
helo
> > pilots that I would ride with are Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover and I
would
> > have a dialogue with them first.
> > Stu Fields.
>
> Hi Stu,
>
> Interesting response to Bart's comments. Out of curiosity, would you care
> to elaborate on the error(s) you made with your Safari? If you'd rather
> not, that's Ok, but I "am" curious! ;-)
>
> Your comments on teaching one's self to fly a helicopter is also well
taken.
> Kind of put's in perspective what Igor Sikorski did when he taught himself
> to fly "and" design a helicopter all at the same time, doesn't it? :-o
>
> Fly Safe,
> Steve R.
>
>

[Bart]

LM Scott wrote:
>>Thanks for a very interesting post Bart! Could you tell us how much
>
> harder an MD 500 is to fly than some other turbine ships? I understand the
> Jetranger is very forgiving and the MD 500 is on the other end of the
> spectrum. How close to right am I?<G> Thanks again. Larry
>
>
If the two were cars, I'd say that its like comparing a Buick to a
Pontiac.

I only have a little bit of time in the 500, so my opinion isn't
worth that much. It certainly does come out of the sky faster than
the 'Ranger but its not bad or scary. The 500 is very nimble and
responsive in contrast to the Jet Ranger's more docile handling.
I don't think the 500 is more difficult to fly, if anything I had
an initial tough time with the Jet Ranger's overboosted hydraulics
because the cyclic is so totally devoid of tactile feedback.

I got to fly a 500 near Donner Pass at about 12,000ft in the
mountains and was impressed. The owner demonstrated a confined
pinnacle departure there that I was certain was impossible.

In spite of its few minor foibles, there's a whole lot of reasons
why I'd still rather be in a Jet Ranger.

Bart

[Steve R.]

"Stu Fields" > wrote in message
...
> Steve: The orginal method of tracking the blade on the Safar was to loosen
> the pinch bolt on the pitch arm where it contacted the blade grip and slip
> the pitch arm and re-tighten and torque the pinch bolt. The bolt got
> installed and safetied but not properly torqued. We discovered this in a
> post crash investigation. At any rate, there I was with about 30hrs Total
> Helo time at lift off and about 40' and 40mph when the pitch arm slipped,
> the blade went out of track(pitching up) and the ship began shaking hard
> enough so that I couldn't read the tach. I decided to put it down and my
> fixed wing training had me reducing the throttle. Almost instantly the
> rotor speed decayed, the ship yawed left inspite of full pedal and rolled
> left inspite of full opposite cyclic and became a Lawn Dart. The two
> seconds I had to analyze the problem were not enough. I have since
> ingrained it into my head (I hope) that when everything turns to crap:KEEP
> THE ROTOR SPEED.

Hi Stu,

Thanks for the story. Keep the rotor speed? Amen to that!

I'm glad you survived to learn the lesson and were able to pinpoint the
problem so you could avoid it in the future. The one's I hate are the one's
that they never fully identify an overriding cause which just leaves
everyone guessing as to what happened. At least you can avoid this one in
the future.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[LM Scott]

"Bart" > wrote in message
.
>
> In spite of its few minor foibles, there's a whole lot of reasons
> why I'd still rather be in a Jet Ranger.
>
> Bart
>
> Thanks Bart. I've not read very many complaints about a Jetranger and
most all of the ships in my area are 206s of one model or another. I'm sorry
to say I've never seen an MD 500 flying or ready for operation at any of our
local airports. I've been curious as to why it is a less popular helo if
that's even the case<G> We do have some NOTARS
working Lifeflight here but the venerable Bell is still well represented.
Larry

[El Gran Cantinflas]

Bart wrote:
>
>
> Skyking wrote:
>
>> Well, I had my CPL,Multi,CFI and transitioned to Comm.
>> Rotor-Helo,CFI-Helo
>> in less than 50 hours. Of course maybe my total time and experience may
>> have had something to do with it. I allocated two weeks for this project.
>>
>> Skyking
>
>
> Having no prior flight experience they cut me loose at about 16 hours in
> a million dollar helicopter. I have little doubt that I could have
> passed an FAA exam at that point as well. None of it means diddley.
> When I soloed that helicopter I had three things going for me;
> fear, pride, and little knowledge of my limitations. In hindsight
> I can't believe that at the skill level I had then that I had the balls
> to let them make me solo.
>
> A couple years and a few hundred hours later I went back and took a week
> long "Advanced Airmanship" class where they teach real-world emergency
> procs. and decision making (eg. 0 A/S 300ft autos). The IP and I didn't
> hit it off at a personal level, which was good because he really went
> out of his way to demonstrate how little I really knew. The guy really
> knew his stuff though, and I learned a whole lot more and gained a new
> appreciation for how much I still didn't know. At one point during
> this experience I seriously botched a recovery and we found ourselves
> engine-out at 15-20 ft flying sideways at about 50 knots. I thought for
> sure we were gonna ball it up. Nope, he turned it into a perfectly
> executed no-run landing. The real lesson was that as long as the machine
> was operating within my limitations it was all-good and I looked and
> flew like an expert helicopter pilot, but if events compounded that
> took me outside my range of experience then it could get really exciting
> really fast.
>
> The reason I came down so hard on the guy who said you could do it in 16
> hours was related to something I'm going through right now; A friend of
> mine who has way-way more money than brains is a collector of type
> ratings and old warbirds. He's somehow managed to get people to sign
> him off on some seriously powerful hardware which he then goes out and
> buys. He's also pretty arrogant and cocksure esp. when everyone who's
> flown with him says that he's a terrible pilot and his attitude is gonna
> kill him. ( I've personally seen him take off 3 times with the speed
> brakes

What a speed brake?

ref



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[Steve R.]

"El Gran Cantinflas" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> What a speed brake?
>
A speed brake is a device that pops up out of the wing on a fixed wing
aircraft. It's purpose is to add lots of drag and partially kill lift to
assist an aerodymically clean aircraft to slow down and/or descend more
steeply without gaining unwanted airspeed.

I found some pictures of a speed brake at
http://www.express-builder.com/gallery/album09/aaj. In this case it's an
installation on an experimental aircraft but it'll give you a little idea of
what the assembly looks like.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.