Are there any motorgliders that can be logged as complex time?

[Chris Snyder]

Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?

Retractable landing gear: CHECK
Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
Flaps: CHECK

[Greg Delp]

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:46:14 PM UTC-5, Chris Snyder wrote:
> Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
>
> Retractable landing gear: CHECK
> Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
> Flaps: CHECK

It's 10 hours required in an airplane not a glider. Uncheck

61.129(a) (3) (ii)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 11:46:14 AM UTC-8, Chris Snyder wrote:
> Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
>
> Retractable landing gear: CHECK
> Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
> Flaps: CHECK

Glider CHECK
Airplane NOT CHECK

[Chris Snyder]

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:58:10 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 11:46:14 AM UTC-8, Chris Snyder wrote:
> > Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
> >
> > Retractable landing gear: CHECK
> > Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
> > Flaps: CHECK
>
> Glider CHECK
> Airplane NOT CHECK

I suppose that makes sense. I just got the notion after helping a friend with the motor brake on his Grob 103. It sounded pretty "complex" to operate while in-flight :)

[PGS]

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:55:07 PM UTC-5, Greg Delp wrote:
> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:46:14 PM UTC-5, Chris Snyder wrote:
> > Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
> >
> > Retractable landing gear: CHECK
> > Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
> > Flaps: CHECK
>
> It's 10 hours required in an airplane not a glider. Uncheck
>
> 61.129(a) (3) (ii)

It would appear that a motor glider is indeed an airplane by the definitions.

Sec. 1.1 -- General definitions.

Airplane means an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.

Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 11:48:17 AM UTC-8, PGS wrote:
> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:55:07 PM UTC-5, Greg Delp wrote:
> > On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:46:14 PM UTC-5, Chris Snyder wrote:
> > > Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
> > >
> > > Retractable landing gear: CHECK
> > > Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
> > > Flaps: CHECK
> >
> > It's 10 hours required in an airplane not a glider. Uncheck
> >
> > 61.129(a) (3) (ii)
>
> It would appear that a motor glider is indeed an airplane by the definitions.
>
> Sec. 1.1 -- General definitions.
>
> Airplane means an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.
>
> Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

What nonsense. A motorglider is registered as type glider, not an airplane.

[PGS]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 11:48:17 AM UTC-8, PGS wrote:
> > On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:55:07 PM UTC-5, Greg Delp wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:46:14 PM UTC-5, Chris Snyder wrote:
> > > > Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
> > > >
> > > > Retractable landing gear: CHECK
> > > > Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
> > > > Flaps: CHECK
> > >
> > > It's 10 hours required in an airplane not a glider. Uncheck
> > >
> > > 61.129(a) (3) (ii)
> >
> > It would appear that a motor glider is indeed an airplane by the definitions.
> >
> > Sec. 1.1 -- General definitions.
> >
> > Airplane means an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.
> >
> > Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.
>
> What nonsense. A motorglider is registered as type glider, not an airplane.

Yes, the FARs are full of "nonsense", what's your point? 61.129 does not say "type", it says airplane. The definition of airplane, according to the FARs is as mentioned above.

[Dan Marotta]

Let us know how this works out for you.

On 12/22/2015 1:15 PM, PGS wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 11:48:17 AM UTC-8, PGS wrote:
>>> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:55:07 PM UTC-5, Greg Delp wrote:
>>>> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 2:46:14 PM UTC-5, Chris Snyder wrote:
>>>>> Power pilots need 10 hours of complex time to earn a commercial rating...could it be done in a motorglider?
>>>>>
>>>>> Retractable landing gear: CHECK
>>>>> Controllable pitch prop: CHECK
>>>>> Flaps: CHECK
>>>> It's 10 hours required in an airplane not a glider. Uncheck
>>>>
>>>> 61.129(a) (3) (ii)
>>> It would appear that a motor glider is indeed an airplane by the definitions.
>>>
>>> Sec. 1.1 -- General definitions.
>>>
>>> Airplane means an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.
>>>
>>> Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.
>> What nonsense. A motorglider is registered as type glider, not an airplane.
> Yes, the FARs are full of "nonsense", what's your point? 61.129 does not say "type", it says airplane. The definition of airplane, according to the FARs is as mentioned above.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Casey Cox]

Complex is as you state, but I'm wondering, does your motor glider have required lights and instrumentation required of airplanes and not just glider? I'm just asking.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 2:51:42 PM UTC-8, Casey Cox wrote:
> Complex is as you state, but I'm wondering, does your motor glider have required lights and instrumentation required of airplanes and not just glider? I'm just asking.

What does that have to do with anything?

1. There are gliders and there are airplanes. You cannot meet experience requirements that require an airplane in a glider. Same question has been asked on r.a.s. before...

2. Airplanes do not have automatic light requirements, well not for VFR day at least. They have instrumentation requirements, which vary greatly depending on certified or experimental category. But that is all beyond irrelevant because of #1.

[Mark628CA]

To expand on Darryl's accurate observations, there are two terms unfortunately often confused and mistakenly used interchangeably by some who have not analyzed the FARs correctly.

There are AIRPLANES and there are AIRCRAFT. These two words look like they should mean the same thing, but they do not. Balloons, gliders, hang gliders, ultralights, hang gliders and a host of other things are AIRCRAFT.

Boeing 787s, Beech Bonanzas, Cirrus 22s, Gulfstream 650s, Cessna Citations and all the other similar flying machines are AIRPLANES.

You cannot get an AIRPLANE rating in an AIRCRAFT.

Although there is a particularly confusing exception involving a turbojet powered two-seat glider (Aircraft) being stuffed into an Airplane category.

I have a Private Pilot Certificate (Glider), but I also have a turbojet rating in Bob Carlton's BonusJet glider (www.desertaerospace.com). Right now, I think I am the only pilot in the world with a turbojet type rating, but no power certificate. I have the certificate in my pocket, but the FAA is still scratching its collective head trying to figure out how this is possible.

It's simple. We read their regulations better than they wrote them.

[SoaringXCellence]

When I took my DPE training at the FAA, one of the instructors was fond of saying "it doesn't have to be fair, it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to be right, But it's the regulation"

[Casey Cox]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 7:42:38 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 2:51:42 PM UTC-8, Casey Cox wrote:
> > Complex is as you state, but I'm wondering, does your motor glider have required lights and instrumentation required of airplanes and not just glider? I'm just asking.
>
> What does that have to do with anything?
>
> 1. There are gliders and there are airplanes. You cannot meet experience requirements that require an airplane in a glider. Same question has been asked on r.a.s. before...
>
> 2. Airplanes do not have automatic light requirements, well not for VFR day at least. They have instrumentation requirements, which vary greatly depending on certified or experimental category. But that is all beyond irrelevant because of #1.

I think what I was getting at was if gliders and airplanes have same instrument/light requirements then it would be easier for someone to sign off on.

And the original question is: Is there any motor gliders meet the requirement.

[Dan Marotta]

As the secretary says when she answers the phone at the FSDO, "FAA,
we're not happy until you're not happy".

And Mark, you CAN get an airPLANE rating in an airCRAFT, so long as the
airCRAFT is an airPLANE. Simple, right?

Oh yeah... The Stemme I've been looking at has navigation lights,
controllable propeller (two-speed, not constant speed), retractable
gear, and flaps (flaperons). It's way more complex than a C-182 RG, but
regs are regs. Gotta play the game.

On 12/22/2015 8:01 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> When I took my DPE training at the FAA, one of the instructors was fond of saying "it doesn't have to be fair, it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to be right, But it's the regulation"

--
Dan, 5J

[Bill T]

No, no motor gliders meet the requirement.
BillT

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Bill T wrote on 12/23/2015 8:37 PM:
> No, no motor gliders meet the requirement.
> BillT


In fact, in the FAA world, there are no motorgliders. You might as well
say "No unicorns meet the requirement". ;^)

I used to think it was an anomaly that what we call "touring
motorgliders" were categorized as gliders, and wondered how long we
could "get away with it". After all, many of them are quite complex with
engine-on performance and range that exceeds many airplanes, and the
majority are used mostly as airplanes by pilots that don't have medicals.

Eventually, I realized that the accident rates weren't significantly
different than pilots with medicals flying similar aircraft, that the
FAA was aware of situation, and did nothing to change it because there
wasn't a problem. The introduction of the LSA license gave pilots
another way to fly airplanes besides the touring motorglider route, and
provided further evidence that a medical was not an asset. It probably
reduced the sales and prices of touring motorgliders, too.

Now, it appears the standard airplane category will finally have reduced
medical certificate requirements, likely reducing the interest in and
sales of LSA airplanes.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Bill T]

Eric, you are correct, "motor" gliders are simply "gliders with a self launch capability." In the "eyes" of the FAA. (Friendly Aviation Assoc)

BillT