View Full Version : Re: Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform
Larry Dighera
July 21st 16, 01:22 AM
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 15:37:30 -0000, wrote:
>
>Personally, I thought the medical requirements were a hold over of WWII
>fighter pilot requirments.
>
>--
>Jim Pennino
How has the human body changed since then? :-)
Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 15:37:30 -0000, wrote:
>
>>
>>Personally, I thought the medical requirements were a hold over of WWII
>>fighter pilot requirments.
>>
>>--
>>Jim Pennino
>
>
> How has the human body changed since then? :-)
The average person is a bit taller and weighs more.
"Since data on Americans' average height was first collected in the early
20th century, children and adolescents grew about an inch and a half
taller every 20 years."
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98438
Medical knowledge has changed a lot since then.
GA pilots do not engage in dogfights.
There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
has accomplished anything.
--
Jim Pennino
Vaughn Simon[_2_]
July 21st 16, 02:24 PM
On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
> There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
> has accomplished anything.
That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
> On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
> > There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
> > has accomplished anything.
>
> That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
> century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
> anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
> populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
> operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
logically it will become an issue.
---
---
wrote:
> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
>> > There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
>> > has accomplished anything.
>>
>> That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
>> century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
>> anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
>> populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
>> operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
>
> People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
> dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
> by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
> the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
> one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
> being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
> among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
> significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
> logically it will become an issue.
I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.
--
Jim Pennino
Larry Dighera
July 21st 16, 08:49 PM
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 17:22:48 -0000, wrote:
>I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
>the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
>guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
Here's a case in point:
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=adc0ae7e-4854-41a4-98a6-17b4751406da
National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594
Accident
05/29/2007
LAX06FA043 File No. 21545 11/19/2005 Dana Point ,CA Aircraft Reg No. N546BC
Time (Local): 14:03 PST
Cessna/T210N Continental / TSIO-520-R9 Destroyed 1 None Personal Part 91:
General Aviation
San Diego, CA Santa Ana, CA Off Airport/Airstrip
1 0 0 3 0 0
Day Weather Observation Facility Visual Conditions None 10.00 SM Variable / 004
kts 28 No Obscuration; No Precipitation
The airplane impacted the ocean following a departure from controlled cruise
flight. The airplane had decelerated from 120 knots to approximately 60 knots
while maintaining an altitude of 3,500 feet mean sea level (msl), then
descended as rapidly as 7,000 feet per minute, finally spiraling toward the
ocean in a corkscrew manner before it impacted the water. No pre-accident
anomalies were noted with any systems examined, and no distress calls or
communications preceded or followed the upset. The autopsy report on the
51-year-old airline transport pilot was consistent with a condition known as
left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH), a substantially thickened main heart
chamber. It also noted moderate to severe coronary artery disease with
evidence of at least one prior small heart attack. The combination of coronary
artery disease and LVH would have substantially increased the risk for sudden
cardiac death in this pilot. There was no evidence that the pilot was aware of
his heart disease. The behavior of the aircraft cannot be explained by any
reasonable scenario in which the 11,500-hour pilot was deliberately controlling
the aircraft. Therefore, it seems likely that the pilot was unable to control
the aircraft, an inability that can reasonably be explained by an
incapacitating cardiac event.
51
Airline Transport; Flight Instructor; Commercial; Multi-engine Land;
Single-engine Land; Single-engine Sea
Airplane
11534 79 Unk/Nr UnK/Nr
Type of Flight Operation: Reg. Flight Conducted Under:
Brief of
LAX06FA043 File No. 21545 11/19/2005 Dana Point ,CA Aircraft Reg No. N546BC
Time (Local): 14:03 PST
Occurrence #1: LOSS OF CONTROL - IN FLIGHT Phase of Operation: CRUISE
- NORMAL
Findings 1. (C) AIRCRAFT CONTROL - NOT POSSIBLE - PILOT IN COMMAND 2.
AIRSPEED - NOT MAINTAINED - PILOT IN COMMAND 3. STALL/SPIN - INADVERTENT
- PILOT IN COMMAND 4. (C) INCAPACITATION(CARDIOVASCULAR) - PILOT IN
COMMAND ----------
Occurrence #2: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER Phase of
Operation: DESCENT - UNCONTROLLED
Findings 5. TERRAIN CONDITION - WATER
Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor
Accident (Continued)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows: The pilot's inability to maintain aircraft control,
which resulted in a loss of airspeed and a stall/spin. The inability of the
pilot to maintain control of the airplane was likely due to an incapacitating
cardiac event.
================================================== ==========
Newspaper account:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/neuman-184592-baldwin-family.html
Foothill Ranch pilot killed in crash
Nov. 25, 2005 Updated Aug. 21, 2013 1:17 p.m.
By ERIKA I. RITCHIE and LAYLAN CONNELLY / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER
DANIEL NEUMAN
AGE: 51
RESIDENCE: Foothill Ranch
FAMILY: Wife, Zandra; children Nikolas, 13; Kayla, 10; Samantha, 7
PROFESSION: Pilot, flight instructor at Royal Aviation Flying Club and Orange
Coast College
EDUCATION: Orange Coast College
INFO: memorypost.com/dantheman
MEMORIAL: Dan Neuman Memorial Fund at Wells Fargo Bank, Account No. 8384621408
Flying for the Neuman family was life.
An early-morning breakfast in Fallbrook, a quick jaunt to San Diego for a
Chargers game and a hop over the mountains for a family vacation in Las Vegas -
that was what "Dan-the-Man" Neuman was about.
"It was a love we all shared," Zandra Neuman, his wife of 14 years, said Monday
at her home as her daughter Samantha flew a toy plane over her head. "Even
though it was his job, it was never a drag. Dan loved making safe pilots and
putting people out there who knew what to do in any situation. They would all
say the aviation world has lost a great teacher."
Neuman, a flight instructor at Orange Coast College, was flying the Cessna
T210N that crashed Saturday afternoon three nautical miles off Dana Point.
Family and friends are mourning Neuman and his three passengers, who were
flying back from an off-road race in Mexico. The others on the plane were
well-known off-road racer Jason Baldwin, 35, and his two longtime friends,
Jeffrey TenEyck, 35, and Rick Olauson, 36.
The victims were described as adventure- and thrill-seekers who lived life to
the fullest.
Neuman, 51, was the Baldwin family's private pilot. He was chief instructor,
part owner and founder of Royal Aviation Flying Club at John Wayne Airport. He
had more than 15,000 hours of flight time and also taught flight ground school
at Orange Coast College, said friend and pilot Nate Morrissey, 27.
Zandra Neuman, already a pilot, met her husband at the college and sometimes
sat in on his classes.
"The students whose lives he touched thought he was God," she said. "He had a
great way of passing on his knowledge. I've had young people calling and asking
for him. They just want to think he's OK and it wasn't really him."
The plane was on its way back from San Felipe, Mexico, after Baldwin competed
in the Baja 1000. It was en route to John Wayne Airport when it crashed.
Nicole Charon, from the National Transportation Safety Board, said
investigators were gathering maintenance and pilot records Monday. There was no
communication from the plane once it left San Diego after a customs stop, but
investigators have radar information showing it was cruising at 3,500 feet in a
northwest direction.
The single-engine plane and the four occupants were recovered Tuesday night
from about 200 feet down on the ocean floor.
Fellow pilots who worked with Neuman at Royal Aviation were in shock Monday.
"I'm not sure reality has set in," said Reza Malek, 23, a pilot and instructor.
"This was the last person this should happen to. We want answers. We're all
thinking something physical must have happened to him or the plane. Pilot error
is not an option with Dan."
Jason Baldwin competed against his younger brother, Josh Baldwin, in the Baja
race. "We're all having a really tough time," said Josh Baldwin, 29. "Our
family is so close. It's like a circle and now there's a piece missing. But
he's only physically missing."
Baldwin's sister, Kelley Renezeder, said they will continue doing the things
her brother loved most - diving, snorkeling with his two young daughters, and
racing.
"We will carry our brother high on our shoulders," she said.
Josh plans on using his brother's number 56 in future races.
Jeffrey TenEyck had known Jason Baldwin since nursery school. Although TenEyck
moved out of Laguna Beach to go to college in Colorado, the two remained close.
TenEyck joined on the trip to "chase" Baldwin, meaning he was following his
vehicle with spare parts and fuel during the race.
Susan Champion, TenEyck's mother, said her son was supposed to visit for dinner
at her Corona del Mar home the night of the crash.
A few months ago, TenEyck bought a home with his fiancée, Jennifer Husman, in
Jackson Hole, Wyo. The two were to marry in April.
"Now instead of having a wedding, we're planning a funeral," Champion said,
choking back tears.
Champion and other family members went to the crash site Monday to scatter
flowers in the water.
"He loved his friends, he loved his family. He would walk into a room and make
everyone laugh," said his sister, Tori Keyes.
Zandra Neuman said the tragedy won't keep her family from the sky.
"I'm expecting Dan's friends to keep my kids in the air," she said. "I know
it's safe. Things just happen sometimes. I know airplanes just don't drop out
of the air."
"When I play with planes, I think I'm with my daddy," said Samantha Neuman, 7.
================================================== ===========
My Jan 8, 2007 post to this newsgroup:
In Memory of Dan Neuman
While researching Dan Neuman's contact information for a friend who
wants to get current again, I learned of the news of Dan's last
flight. At the moment I am weeping over our tragic loss, but I feel
compelled to contribute something to his memory.
Dan returned me to flight status in 1996 after 17 years away from
aviation. It was his patient, thoughtful, and insightful tutelage
that enabled me to return to life in the third dimension. Later, in
1998, Dan trained me for my instrument rating. I recall well one IMC
flight to KVNY that February second.
Two dripping wet flight instructors burst into the Royal Aviation
office loudly remarking about their turbulent flight in the storm
going on overhead that afternoon. They were exuberantly remarking
about how bad the weather was, and how it had been nearly impossible
to remain in control of their little Cessna 152. Dan looked at me and
asked if I still wanted to fly our scheduled lesson. Not knowing any
better, I thought it was a good opportunity to get some more actual
IMC experience, so I said yes. We'd be flying the Archer with a
little heavier wing loading, so it should be a bit more stable. Dan
was game, and I trusted his judgment, so we got a SID and launched.
The ceiling was low, and there was a lot of convective activity, but
we managed to bounce along in the gray-black clag through KLAX Class
B. The KLAX approach controller sounded like a non-stop auctioneer
without waiting for pilot acknowledgements to his calls. His
intensity added to the tumult we were all experiencing.
I was fighting to keep within 30 degrees of our assigned heading as
the turbulence tossed us back and forth. It was the roughest flight I
had ever experienced, and I was clammy with perspiration from trying
to retain control. Dan was cool, and let me keep at it without
interfering.
Things finally settled down a bit as we were cleared for the KVNY
Runway 34L ILS approach. There was a pretty good cross wind component
and it was still very gusty. We broke out of the ceiling lined up
with the runway centerline, and as I was about to touch down, a gust
nearly blew us off the western edge. Dan was calm and cool. Thanks
to his courage and confidence, I now knew what to expect when I had to
face real-weather IFR conditions. That sort of preparation is
priceless.
Dan was a real prince. He never bragged, or behaved boisterously like
some arrogant pilots. He maintained his cool, professional, cordial
demeanor, and I've always tried to emulate his thoughtful prudence as
a pilot. He's with me on every flight; still today I hear his terse,
calm instructions as I ply the skies. Dan "The Man" Neuman may no
longer walk the Earth, but he lives in the hearts and minds of the
hundreds of airmen he trained.
Dan said it well:
THOUGHT FOR THE DAY (month - year etc.?)
Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying
accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon
the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in
it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. -- that his
judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. -- Every
instructor, supervisor and contemporary who ever spoke to him, had
an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all
of us goes with every pilot we lose.
http://www.memorypost.com/post.php?id=334
Dan Neuman "Dan the Man"
http://www.memorypost.com/gallery.php?id=334&imageid=1409
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=adc0ae7e-4854-41a4-98a6-17b4751406da
The airplane impacted the ocean following a departure from controlled cruise
flight. The airplane had decelerated from 120 knots to approximately 60 knots
while maintaining an altitude of 3,500 feet mean sea level (msl), then
descended as rapidly as 7,000 feet per minute, finally spiraling toward the
ocean in a corkscrew manner before it impacted the water. No pre-accident
anomalies were noted with any systems examined, and no distress calls or
communications preceded or followed the upset. The autopsy report on the
51-year-old airline transport pilot was consistent with a condition known as
left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH), a substantially thickened main heart
chamber. It also noted moderate to severe coronary artery disease with
evidence of at least one prior small heart attack. The combination of coronary
artery disease and LVH would have substantially increased the risk for sudden
cardiac death in this pilot. There was no evidence that the pilot was aware of
his heart disease. The behavior of the aircraft cannot be explained by any
reasonable scenario in which the 11,500-hour pilot was deliberately controlling
the aircraft. Therefore, it seems likely that the pilot was unable to control
the aircraft, an inability that can reasonably be explained by an
incapacitating cardiac event.
51
Airline Transport; Flight Instructor; Commercial; Multi-engine Land;
Single-engine Land; Single-engine Sea
Airplane
11534 79 Unk/Nr UnK/Nr
Type of Flight Operation: Reg. Flight Conducted Under:
Brief of
LAX06FA043 File No. 21545 11/19/2005 Dana Point ,CA Aircraft Reg No. N546BC
Time (Local): 14:03 PST
Occurrence #1: LOSS OF CONTROL - IN FLIGHT Phase of Operation: CRUISE
- NORMAL
Findings 1. (C) AIRCRAFT CONTROL - NOT POSSIBLE - PILOT IN COMMAND 2.
AIRSPEED - NOT MAINTAINED - PILOT IN COMMAND 3. STALL/SPIN - INADVERTENT
- PILOT IN COMMAND 4. (C) INCAPACITATION(CARDIOVASCULAR) - PILOT IN
COMMAND ----------
Occurrence #2: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER Phase of
Operation: DESCENT - UNCONTROLLED
Findings 5. TERRAIN CONDITION - WATER
Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor
Accident (Continued)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows: The pilot's inability to maintain aircraft control,
which resulted in a loss of airspeed and a stall/spin. The inability of the
pilot to maintain control of the airplane was likely due to an incapacitating
cardiac event.
Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 17:22:48 -0000, wrote:
>
>>I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
>>the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
>>guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
>
> Here's a case in point:
<snip details>
Yep, and he probably had better than a 3rd class medical.
A CT scan (average US cost $1,200 and not payed for by insurance unless
there was a good reason to start with) may have caught this, but unless
he was showing symptoms it would not be done.
--
Jim Pennino
Vaughn Simon[_2_]
July 21st 16, 09:53 PM
On 7/21/2016 3:49 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
> Here's a case in point:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=adc0ae7e-4854-41a4-98a6-17b4751406da
> National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594
OK, but what exactly IS your point?
That pilot apparently had a valid medical certificate, which did NOTHING
to prevent the accident, because a cursory one-time physical exam simply
has little chance of predicting a sudden incapacitation event.
Wouldn't it have been better to train him to self-recognize dangerous
symptoms in himself? In that case, perhaps he wouldn't have taken that
flight, or perhaps turned around in time?
Also, not to belabor the point, but the present system presents a huge
disincentive to pilots who detect symptoms in themselves. If they go to
the doctor, they run the risk of receiving a diagnosis that will ground
them. So that's an incentive to not go, and just to hope that the
symptoms go away!
Larry Dighera
July 21st 16, 11:51 PM
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:53:38 -0400, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>On 7/21/2016 3:49 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>> Here's a case in point:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=adc0ae7e-4854-41a4-98a6-17b4751406da
>> National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594
>
>OK, but what exactly IS your point?
>
Jim caught it. :-)
>
>That pilot apparently had a valid medical certificate, which did NOTHING
>to prevent the accident, because a cursory one-time physical exam simply
>has little chance of predicting a sudden incapacitation event.
>
See. You got it too.
>
>Wouldn't it have been better to train him to self-recognize dangerous
>symptoms in himself? In that case, perhaps he wouldn't have taken that
>flight, or perhaps turned around in time?
>
How do you know Dan wasn't aware of his medical condition?
I recall reading somewhere back then that the postmortem examination revealed
evidence of past cardiac scaring events.
>
>Also, not to belabor the point, but the present system presents a huge
>disincentive to pilots who detect symptoms in themselves.
>
With all due respect, I would say that that disincentive is only present in
those who are unreasonable, but unable to admit it to them selves.
>
>If they go to
>the doctor, they run the risk of receiving a diagnosis that will ground
>them. So that's an incentive to not go, and just to hope that the
>symptoms go away!
The incentive for every _reasonable_ (read: sane) pilot to assure that s/he is
medically fit to assume the duties and responsibilities of Pilot In Command of
the flight upon which s/he is about to embark, is her/his own safety, and that
of her/his passengers and those over whom s/he navigates. The unreasonable
pilot who disregards her/his own limitations when committing aviation will
likely become a statistic of natural selection, hopefully sooner than later.
About 2,016 years ago, a wise fellow said it pretty well:
<http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/3.htm>
"There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity
under the heavens"
When the time comes to cease flying for medical reasons, only a fool (or a
pilot with a vendetta against the IRS[1]) ignores that fact. Does Joe Stack
sound rational to you? Here are his "last words:"
<http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/us/20100218-stack-suicide-letter.pdf>
[1] <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEl6t2zHtv0>
The point is, when a pilot is unfit for duty, her/his time has come to cease
flying despite how difficult it is for him/her to admit the fact.
Vaughn Simon > wrote:
> On 7/21/2016 3:49 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>> Here's a case in point:
>>
>> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=adc0ae7e-4854-41a4-98a6-17b4751406da
>> National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594
>
> OK, but what exactly IS your point?
>
> That pilot apparently had a valid medical certificate, which did NOTHING
> to prevent the accident, because a cursory one-time physical exam simply
> has little chance of predicting a sudden incapacitation event.
>
> Wouldn't it have been better to train him to self-recognize dangerous
> symptoms in himself? In that case, perhaps he wouldn't have taken that
> flight, or perhaps turned around in time?
Which is what will be required when the 3rd class requirement goes away
though it is likely in this particular case there no symptoms before the
"big one" hit.
Things like that tend to stay hidden until the first time you keel over.
> Also, not to belabor the point, but the present system presents a huge
> disincentive to pilots who detect symptoms in themselves. If they go to
> the doctor, they run the risk of receiving a diagnosis that will ground
> them. So that's an incentive to not go, and just to hope that the
> symptoms go away!
True, and the new system eliminates that issue because no one has
to report this to the FAA. You do have to ground yourself during treatment
until the doctor tells you you are good to go.
--
Jim Pennino
On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 1:31:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
> >> On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
> >> > There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
> >> > has accomplished anything.
> >>
> >> That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
> >> century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
> >> anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
> >> populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
> >> operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
> >
> > People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
> > dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
> > by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
> > the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
> > one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
> > being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
> > among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
> > significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
> > logically it will become an issue.
>
> I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
> the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
> guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
Then maybe under the new rules there should be a few *specific*
tests relevant to piloting. The first one being a "plaque test",
and then a focus on possible hypertension.
> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
> A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
> a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.
To tell you the truth, I'd rather go before an AME than a non-pilot
GP who's lack of familiarity with the experience would cause them to
flag non-issues off the "top of their head".
---
Mark
>
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
Vaughn Simon[_2_]
July 22nd 16, 01:21 AM
On 7/21/2016 6:51 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:53:38 -0400, Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>
>> >On 7/21/2016 3:49 PM, Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> >> Here's a case in point:
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=adc0ae7e-4854-41a4-98a6-17b4751406da
>>> >> National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594
>> >
>> >OK, but what exactly IS your point?
>> >
> Jim caught it. :-)
>
>> >
>> >That pilot apparently had a valid medical certificate, which did NOTHING
>> >to prevent the accident, because a cursory one-time physical exam simply
>> >has little chance of predicting a sudden incapacitation event.
>> >
> See. You got it too.
>
Excuse my confusion here, but weren't you the person who wrote:
"Personally, I thought the medical requirements were prudent and
acceptable, but then I'm healthy."???
You said "prudent and acceptable", I say ineffective, unacceptable, and
in some cases, actually counterproductive.
Vaughn
wrote:
> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 1:31:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> >> On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
>> >> > There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
>> >> > has accomplished anything.
>> >>
>> >> That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
>> >> century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
>> >> anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
>> >> populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
>> >> operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
>> >
>> > People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
>> > dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
>> > by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
>> > the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
>> > one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
>> > being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
>> > among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
>> > significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
>> > logically it will become an issue.
>>
>> I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
>> the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
>> guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
>
> Then maybe under the new rules there should be a few *specific*
> tests relevant to piloting. The first one being a "plaque test",
> and then a focus on possible hypertension.
And the other 5 to 10 things that could cause one to keel over with
little to no previous symptoms?
Perhaps semi-annual MRI's and CT scans at about $4,000 a pop just to be
sure.
>> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
>
> Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
> doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
> insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
If what history?
Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
big problem.
>> A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
>> a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.
>
> To tell you the truth, I'd rather go before an AME than a non-pilot
> GP who's lack of familiarity with the experience would cause them to
> flag non-issues off the "top of their head".
1) The 3rd class physical is a joke and less extensive than the normal
physical my docotor gives.
2) There is a checklist of items for your doctor to check, it is just
not forwarded to the FAA.
--
Jim Pennino
On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:16:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 1:31:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
> >> >> On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
> >> >> > There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
> >> >> > has accomplished anything.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
> >> >> century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
> >> >> anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
> >> >> populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
> >> >> operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
> >> >
> >> > People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
> >> > dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
> >> > by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
> >> > the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
> >> > one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
> >> > being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
> >> > among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
> >> > significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
> >> > logically it will become an issue.
> >>
> >> I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
> >> the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
> >> guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
> >
> > Then maybe under the new rules there should be a few *specific*
> > tests relevant to piloting. The first one being a "plaque test",
> > and then a focus on possible hypertension.
>
> And the other 5 to 10 things that could cause one to keel over with
> little to no previous symptoms?
>
> Perhaps semi-annual MRI's and CT scans at about $4,000 a pop just to be
> sure.
Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
> >
> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
>
> If what history?
>
> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
> big problem.
Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
> >> A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
> >> a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.
> >
> > To tell you the truth, I'd rather go before an AME than a non-pilot
> > GP who's lack of familiarity with the experience would cause them to
> > flag non-issues off the "top of their head".
>
> 1) The 3rd class physical is a joke and less extensive than the normal
> physical my docotor gives.
Ok.
> 2) There is a checklist of items for your doctor to check, it is just
> not forwarded to the FAA.
A good doctor is hard to find.
I'm in favor of expediting the screening process, and making it
easier for me to fly.
This fellow seems to think it won't:
"This reform bill is going to be more trouble than it is worth. Think about it - you still have to see a doctor every four years. I can assure you that their physical will be a lot more intense - blood work, EKG - the works. Second, you still have to do something to qualify - take an online training class every two years. I'll bet it will take a lot longer than the 30 to 45 minutes that a Third Class Medical takes. What happened to being medically fit if you have a driver's license? This entire thing is a joke and politically driven by the AOPA and the EAA. Additionally, they could not get the original bill passed on its own so they had to follow the Pork process and stuff into another bill. This entire thing was written in such a way to appease the FAA and ALPA. It does not benefit the GA Private Pilot. You can be assured that if the doctor, who most likely has never done an FAA medical, is not happy with his findings, he or she will not sign you off. You are in no better shape. Remember you do not need a physical to drive a car!!"
---
> --
> Jim Pennino
wrote:
> On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:16:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 1:31:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> >> >> On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
>> >> >> > There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
>> >> >> > has accomplished anything.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
>> >> >> century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
>> >> >> anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
>> >> >> populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
>> >> >> operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.
>> >> >
>> >> > People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
>> >> > dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
>> >> > by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
>> >> > the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
>> >> > one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
>> >> > being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
>> >> > among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
>> >> > significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
>> >> > logically it will become an issue.
>> >>
>> >> I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
>> >> the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
>> >> guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.
>> >
>> > Then maybe under the new rules there should be a few *specific*
>> > tests relevant to piloting. The first one being a "plaque test",
>> > and then a focus on possible hypertension.
>>
>> And the other 5 to 10 things that could cause one to keel over with
>> little to no previous symptoms?
>>
>> Perhaps semi-annual MRI's and CT scans at about $4,000 a pop just to be
>> sure.
>
> Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
> arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
> has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
> otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
> the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
recommend doing this?
>> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
>> >
>> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
>> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
>> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
>>
>> If what history?
>>
>> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
>> big problem.
>
> Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
> and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
> quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
> a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
> be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
> very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
> Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
> > >> A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
>> >> a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.
>> >
>> > To tell you the truth, I'd rather go before an AME than a non-pilot
>> > GP who's lack of familiarity with the experience would cause them to
>> > flag non-issues off the "top of their head".
>>
>> 1) The 3rd class physical is a joke and less extensive than the normal
>> physical my docotor gives.
>
> Ok.
>
>> 2) There is a checklist of items for your doctor to check, it is just
>> not forwarded to the FAA.
>
> A good doctor is hard to find.
>
> I'm in favor of expediting the screening process, and making it
> easier for me to fly.
>
> This fellow seems to think it won't:
>
> "This reform bill is going to be more trouble than it is worth. Think
> about it - you still have to see a doctor every four years. I can
> assure you that their physical will be a lot more intense - blood work,
> EKG - the works.
My doctor already does all this; if you are over 40 any decent doctor
should.
> Second, you still have to do something to qualify - take an online
> training class every two years. I'll bet it will take a lot longer
> than the 30 to 45 minutes that a Third Class Medical takes.
Something that can be done at any time including the middle of the night
on a weekend, and it is free.
> What happened to being medically fit if you have a driver's license?
You have to be able to see and hear; flying doesn't require much more.
> This entire thing is a joke and politically driven by the AOPA and
> the EAA. Additionally, they could not get the original bill passed
> on its own so they had to follow the Pork process and stuff into
> another bill. This entire thing was written in such a way to
> appease the FAA and ALPA. It does not benefit the GA Private Pilot.
> You can be assured that if the doctor, who most likely has never
> done an FAA medical, is not happy with his findings, he or she
> will not sign you off. You are in no better shape. Remember you
> do not need a physical to drive a car!!"
Sounds like an AME who is about to lose his 3rd class gravey train.
I explained what happens in a 3rd class to my doctor and how much it
costs. He shook his head and asked how to get in on this.
--
Jim Pennino
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
>
> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
> recommend doing this?
If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
numerous plane crashes.
> >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
> >> >
> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
> >>
> >> If what history?
> >>
> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
> >> big problem.
> >
> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
>
> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
---
wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
>> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
>> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
>> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
>> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
>>
>> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
>> recommend doing this?
>
> If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.
> My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
> there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
> 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
> don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
that did not show up in a routine physical.
So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
> You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
> afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
> is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
> numerous plane crashes.
As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
it is irrelevant to the issue.
> > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
>> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
>> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
>> >>
>> >> If what history?
>> >>
>> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
>> >> big problem.
>> >
>> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
>> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
>> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
>> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
>> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
>> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
>> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
>>
>> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
>
> Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
> cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
> commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
> I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
> abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
> Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
--
Jim Pennino
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
> >> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
> >> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
> >> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
> >> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
> >>
> >> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
> >> recommend doing this?
> >
> > If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
>
> Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
> have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
Mine does. And without referrals.
> And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
> the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical..
No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
be proven.
> > My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
> > there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
> > 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
> > don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
>
> And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
> exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
> that did not show up in a routine physical.
Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.
> So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.
Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
(a) Myocardial infarction;
(b) Angina pectoris;
(c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;
(d) Cardiac valve replacement;
(e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or
(f) Heart replacement.
A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.
> > You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
> > afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
> > is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
> > numerous plane crashes.
>
> As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
> it is irrelevant to the issue.
My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.
> > > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
> >> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
> >> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
> >> >>
> >> >> If what history?
> >> >>
> >> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
> >> >> big problem.
> >> >
> >> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
> >> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
> >> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
> >> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
> >> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
> >> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
> >> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
> >>
> >> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
> >
> > Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
> > cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
> > commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
> > I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
> > abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
>
> And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.
Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
(1) A personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts.
(2) A psychosis. As used in this section, “psychosis†refers to a mental disorder in which—
(i) The individual has manifested delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition; or
(ii) The individual may reasonably be expected to manifest delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition.
(3) A bipolar disorder.
(4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section—
(i) “Substance†includes: alcohol; other sedatives and hypnotics; anxiolytics; opioids; central nervous system stimulants such as cocaine, amphetamines, and similarly acting sympathomimetics; hallucinogens; phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines; cannabis; inhalants; and other psychoactive drugs and chemicals; and
(ii) “Substance dependence†means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance, other than tobacco or ordinary xanthine-containing (e.g., caffeine) beverages, as evidenced by—
(A) Increased tolerance;
(B) Manifestation of withdrawal symptoms;
(C) Impaired control of use; or
(D) Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning.
(b) No substance abuse within the preceding 2 years defined as:
(1) Use of a substance in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous, if there has been at any other time an instance of the use of a substance also in a situation in which that use was physically hazardous;
(2) A verified positive drug test result, an alcohol test result of 0.04 or greater alcohol concentration, or a refusal to submit to a drug or alcohol test required by the U.S. Department of Transportation or an agency of the U.S. Department of Transportation; or
(3) Misuse of a substance that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the substance involved, finds—
(i) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or
(ii) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.
(c) No other personality disorder, neurosis, or other mental condition that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the condition involved, finds—
(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or
(2) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.
>
> > Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
>
> Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
> get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
So, then, mental.
---
> --
> Jim Pennino
wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
>> >> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
>> >> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
>> >> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
>> >> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
>> >>
>> >> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
>> >> recommend doing this?
>> >
>> > If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
>>
>> Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
>> have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
>
> Mine does. And without referrals.
Aren't you lucky; very few do.
>> And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
>> the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.
>
> No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
> such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
> because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
> may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
> failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
> be proven.
You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
which don't require a medical?
>> > My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
>> > there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
>> > 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
>> > don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
>>
>> And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
>> exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
>> that did not show up in a routine physical.
>
> Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.
No, not in droves, but it does happen.
>> So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
>
> What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
> states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
> for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
> never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.
But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
light sport pilots if it actually were happening.
> Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
>
> (a) Myocardial infarction;
>
> (b) Angina pectoris;
>
> (c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;
>
> (d) Cardiac valve replacement;
>
> (e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or
>
> (f) Heart replacement.
>
> A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.
All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.
And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
self certify.
>> > You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
>> > afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
>> > is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
>> > numerous plane crashes.
>>
>> As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
>> it is irrelevant to the issue.
>
> My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
> that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
> the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.
And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
happens.
>
>> > > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
>> >> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
>> >> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If what history?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
>> >> >> big problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
>> >> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
>> >> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
>> >> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
>> >> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
>> >> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
>> >> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
>> >>
>> >> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
>> >
>> > Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
>> > cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
>> > commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
>> > I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
>> > abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
>>
>> And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
>
> The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
> it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
> individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
> crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
> that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.
You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
have NO medical requirements?
> Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.
>> > Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
>>
>> Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
>> get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
>
> So, then, mental.
As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?
--
Jim Pennino
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> >> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
> >> >> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
> >> >> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
> >> >> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
> >> >> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
> >> >>
> >> >> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
> >> >> recommend doing this?
> >> >
> >> > If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
> >>
> >> Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
> >> have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
> >
> > Mine does. And without referrals.
>
> Aren't you lucky; very few do.
That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.
> >> And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
> >> the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.
> >
> > No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
> > such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
> > because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
> > may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
> > failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
> > be proven.
>
> You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
> which don't require a medical?
The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
from this group too, is small to non-existent.
> >> > My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
> >> > there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
> >> > 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
> >> > don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
> >>
> >> And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
> >> exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
> >> that did not show up in a routine physical.
> >
> > Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.
>
> No, not in droves, but it does happen.
And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
no benefit?
> >> So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
> >
> > What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
> > states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
> > for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
> > never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.
>
> But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
> light sport pilots if it actually were happening.
Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.
> > Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
> >
> > (a) Myocardial infarction;
> >
> > (b) Angina pectoris;
> >
> > (c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;
> >
> > (d) Cardiac valve replacement;
> >
> > (e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or
> >
> > (f) Heart replacement.
> >
> > A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.
>
> All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.
Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?
> And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
> self certify.
Like one fellow said:
"All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some—maybe most—pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's the point?"
So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.
> >> > You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
> >> > afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
> >> > is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
> >> > numerous plane crashes.
> >>
> >> As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
> >> it is irrelevant to the issue.
> >
> > My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
> > that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
> > the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.
>
> And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
> happens.
Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
disease is the number one killer.
> >
> >> > > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
> >> >> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
> >> >> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If what history?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
> >> >> >> big problem.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
> >> >> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
> >> >> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
> >> >> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
> >> >> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
> >> >> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
> >> >> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
> >> >>
> >> >> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
> >> >
> >> > Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
> >> > cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
> >> > commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
> >> > I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
> >> > abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
> >>
> >> And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
> >
> > The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
> > it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
> > individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
> > crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
> > that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.
>
> You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
> have NO medical requirements?
No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
Apples, oranges, hidden data.
> > Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
>
> Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.
Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.
> >> > Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
> >>
> >> Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
> >> get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
> >
> > So, then, mental.
>
> As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?
Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
and crash".
Then it would be gastrointestinal.
---
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
wrote:
> On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> >> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
>> >> >> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
>> >> >> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
>> >> >> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
>> >> >> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
>> >> >> recommend doing this?
>> >> >
>> >> > If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
>> >>
>> >> Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
>> >> have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
>> >
>> > Mine does. And without referrals.
>>
>> Aren't you lucky; very few do.
>
> That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
> cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
> everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.
There is a word for people that take tests just because the test exists.
>> >> And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
>> >> the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.
>> >
>> > No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
>> > such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
>> > because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
>> > may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
>> > failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
>> > be proven.
>>
>> You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
>> which don't require a medical?
>
> The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
> are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
> problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
> The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
> floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
> from this group too, is small to non-existent.
Nonsense.
There is nothing special about the physical requirments to fly in Class C
and the same investigative system investigates all aviation accidents
whether it is one guy in a hot air balloon or an airliner with hundreds
of people.
While the absolute number of flight hours for balloon, glider, and light
sport pilots are smaller than for private pilots, the percentage of
medically caused accidents is not statistically different.
>> >> > My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
>> >> > there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
>> >> > 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
>> >> > don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
>> >>
>> >> And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
>> >> exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
>> >> that did not show up in a routine physical.
>> >
>> > Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.
>>
>> No, not in droves, but it does happen.
>
> And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
> obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
> no benefit?
**** happens.
Since the percentage of medically caused accidents are not statistically
different for those with a 3rd class medical and those without, the 3rd
class medical appears to serve no usefull purpose.
>> >> So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
>> >
>> > What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
>> > states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
>> > for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
>> > never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.
>>
>> But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
>> light sport pilots if it actually were happening.
>
> Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
> slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
> medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
> necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
> saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.
No, there is no difference in the physical requirements for any type of
private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.
And again, the same investigation applies to ALL accidents and the percentage
of medically related accidents is not statistically different for those
with a 3rd class physical and those without it.
And there is STILL the requirement to get a phsical, just not all the
extra time, expense, and paperwork required for a 3rd class.
>> > Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
>> >
>> > (a) Myocardial infarction;
>> >
>> > (b) Angina pectoris;
>> >
>> > (c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;
>> >
>> > (d) Cardiac valve replacement;
>> >
>> > (e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or
>> >
>> > (f) Heart replacement.
>> >
>> > A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.
>>
>> All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.
>
> Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?
Waivered means, after extensive tests, lots of time, lots of money, and
lots of paperwork, a bunch of doctors have decided you are fit to fly.
You have a strange definition of "beat the system".
>> And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
>> self certify.
>
> Like one fellow said:
>
> "All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly
> larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to
> justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the
> Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some
> maybe most pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the
> Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your
> AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's
> the point?"
And doing so is both stupid and illegal.
Also I highly doubt there are very many people that have a heart attack
and then go fly.
> So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
> I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
> take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
> Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.
I highly doubt there are very many people that have bypass surgery or
a pace maker implanted and then go fly.
>> >> > You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
>> >> > afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
>> >> > is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
>> >> > numerous plane crashes.
>> >>
>> >> As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
>> >> it is irrelevant to the issue.
>> >
>> > My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
>> > that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
>> > the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.
>>
>> And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
>> happens.
>
> Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
> suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
> These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
> disease is the number one killer.
We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.
>> >
>> >> > > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
>> >> >> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
>> >> >> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If what history?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
>> >> >> >> big problem.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
>> >> >> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
>> >> >> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
>> >> >> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
>> >> >> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
>> >> >> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
>> >> >> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
>> >> >
>> >> > Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
>> >> > cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
>> >> > commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
>> >> > I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
>> >> > abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
>> >>
>> >> And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
>> >
>> > The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
>> > it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
>> > individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
>> > crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
>> > that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.
>>
>> You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
>> have NO medical requirements?
>
> No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
> enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
> Apples, oranges, hidden data.
You seem to forget we are talking about the probability of medically
caused accidents and the same investigation happens for both people
without medicals and 3rd class holders.
And again, there is nothing special physcially about Class C airspace, or
Class B for that matter.
You do know light sport pilots can fly in both, don't you?
>> > Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
>>
>> Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.
>
> Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.
A childish appeal to emotion.
>> >> > Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
>> >>
>> >> Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
>> >> get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
>> >
>> > So, then, mental.
>>
>> As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?
>
> Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
> and crash".
>
> Then it would be gastrointestinal.
So how does one medically diagnose get home-itis?
--
Jim Pennino
On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 12:31:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> >> >> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
> >> >> >> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
> >> >> >> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
> >> >> >> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
> >> >> >> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
> >> >> >> recommend doing this?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
> >> >>
> >> >> Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
> >> >> have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
> >> >
> >> > Mine does. And without referrals.
> >>
> >> Aren't you lucky; very few do.
> >
> > That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
> > cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
> > everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.
>
> There is a word for people that take tests just because the test exists.
Off topic. Aviators need a healthy cardiac report.
> >> >> And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
> >> >> the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.
> >> >
> >> > No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
> >> > such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
> >> > because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
> >> > may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
> >> > failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
> >> > be proven.
> >>
> >> You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
> >> which don't require a medical?
> >
> > The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
> > are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
> > problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
> > The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
> > floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
> > from this group too, is small to non-existent.
>
> Nonsense.
>
> There is nothing special about the physical requirments to fly in Class C
> and the same investigative system investigates all aviation accidents
> whether it is one guy in a hot air balloon or an airliner with hundreds
> of people.
>
> While the absolute number of flight hours for balloon, glider, and light
> sport pilots are smaller than for private pilots, the percentage of
> medically caused accidents is not statistically different.
Your entire argument here is mute, as it is predicated on the assumption
that people who fly balloons, light sport, and gliders prove that 3rd
class medicals are unnecessary. Captain Obvious says that we don't
know what percentage of that community WOULD HAVE PASSED their 3RD class
medical anyway. I'm telling you that this is a minority community, and
the folks in that community who can't pass a 3rd class medical, are a
minority of a minority, and the folks in that minority of a minority
who end up in an *FAA report*, are a minority, of a minority, of a
minority. Even with ALL THAT, you still have glider, ballonists, and
light sport pilots in FAA reports due to medical reasons.
> >> >> > My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
> >> >> > there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
> >> >> > 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
> >> >> > don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
> >> >>
> >> >> And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
> >> >> exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
> >> >> that did not show up in a routine physical.
> >> >
> >> > Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.
> >>
> >> No, not in droves, but it does happen.
> >
> > And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
> > obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
> > no benefit?
>
> **** happens.
Irrelevant.
> Since the percentage of medically caused accidents are not statistically
> different for those with a 3rd class medical and those without, the 3rd
> class medical appears to serve no usefull purpose.
Again, fails on the logical fallacy of assumption, and false analogy.
You failed to consider the second group which would have passed the
3rd class medical.
> >> >> So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
> >> >
> >> > What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
> >> > states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
> >> > for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
> >> > never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.
> >>
> >> But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
> >> light sport pilots if it actually were happening.
> >
> > Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
> > slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
> > medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
> > necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
> > saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.
>
> No, there is no difference in the physical requirements for any type of
> private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. The 3rd class medical has professional (albeit
often manipulatable) oversight by a doctor. The other group is the HONOR
SYSTEM. Big difference.
> And again, the same investigation applies to ALL accidents and the percentage
> of medically related accidents is not statistically different for those
> with a 3rd class physical and those without it.
You can' plot statistics on that which goes unreported, like, when
your little balloon lands in Martha's swimming pool. Very different
than a Mooney missing the threshold.
> And there is STILL the requirement to get a phsical, just not all the
> extra time, expense, and paperwork required for a 3rd class.
No there isn't. Light Sport medicals, and Glider medicals aren't
required at all.
> >> > Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
> >> >
> >> > (a) Myocardial infarction;
> >> >
> >> > (b) Angina pectoris;
> >> >
> >> > (c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;
> >> >
> >> > (d) Cardiac valve replacement;
> >> >
> >> > (e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or
> >> >
> >> > (f) Heart replacement.
> >> >
> >> > A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.
> >>
> >> All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.
> >
> > Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?
>
> Waivered means, after extensive tests, lots of time, lots of money, and
> lots of paperwork, a bunch of doctors have decided you are fit to fly.
That is perfectly acceptable.
> You have a strange definition of "beat the system".
Oh, I'm quite familiar with how it *actually* works, when the
buddy system gives a guy a break. And frankly, most the time it's
justified if proven as you say. And sometimes it's favoritism.
> >> And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
> >> self certify.
> >
> > Like one fellow said:
> >
> > "All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly
> > larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to
> > justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the
> > Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some
> > maybe most pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the
> > Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your
> > AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's
> > the point?"
>
> And doing so is both stupid and illegal.
Ok. So given human nature, as it is, then you advocate oversight.
> Also I highly doubt there are very many people that have a heart attack
> and then go fly.
No, they go fly, then they have the heart attack.
> > So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
> > I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
> > take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
> > Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.
>
> I highly doubt there are very many people that have bypass surgery or
> a pace maker implanted and then go fly.
I agree.
> >> >> > You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
> >> >> > afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
> >> >> > is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
> >> >> > numerous plane crashes.
> >> >>
> >> >> As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
> >> >> it is irrelevant to the issue.
> >> >
> >> > My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
> >> > that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
> >> > the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.
> >>
> >> And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
> >> happens.
> >
> > Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
> > suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
> > These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
> > disease is the number one killer.
>
> We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.
Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
and Anti-Behavior tendencies.
> >> >
> >> >> > > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
> >> >> >> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
> >> >> >> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If what history?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
> >> >> >> >> big problem.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
> >> >> >> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
> >> >> >> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
> >> >> >> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
> >> >> >> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
> >> >> >> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
> >> >> >> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
> >> >> > cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
> >> >> > commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
> >> >> > I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
> >> >> > abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
> >> >>
> >> >> And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
> >> >
> >> > The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
> >> > it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
> >> > individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
> >> > crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
> >> > that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.
> >>
> >> You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
> >> have NO medical requirements?
> >
> > No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
> > enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
> > Apples, oranges, hidden data.
>
> You seem to forget we are talking about the probability of medically
> caused accidents and the same investigation happens for both people
> without medicals and 3rd class holders.
That's patently false. What about all the folks who can't pass a medical?
Take a thousand of them and send them off flying and look at *those*
statistics. Now look at the group who didn't take a medical. A high
percentage of them COULD pass. And those who couldn't and end up in
an FAA report... again, are a % of a % of a %.
> And again, there is nothing special physcially about Class C airspace, or
> Class B for that matter.
Well, that isn't fully correct either. There is much more interaction,
squawking, and memorization with these classes (I've landed Cessnas in
Jetports) and it's done at higher speeds. Way different than throwing
peanuts out of a balloon, or spiraling in circles over the bluff. You
can't be larking in Class B and C.
> You do know light sport pilots can fly in both, don't you?
In limited capacity.
> >> > Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
> >>
> >> Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.
> >
> > Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.
>
> A childish appeal to emotion.
Oh, well you snipped the entire FAR requirements for mental standards
and called it boring, so... I thought I'd keep it on your level.
> >> >> > Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
> >> >>
> >> >> Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
> >> >> get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
> >> >
> >> > So, then, mental.
> >>
> >> As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?
> >
> > Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
> > and crash".
> >
> > Then it would be gastrointestinal.
>
> So how does one medically diagnose get home-itis?
Mental.
> --
> Jim Pennino
On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 6:32:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.
>
> Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
> by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
> most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
> and Anti-Behavior tendencies.
Typo. Should be, Anti-Social Behavior. As in, doesn't play well with others.
Or make transceivers a priority. We all know that guy.
---
wrote:
> On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 12:31:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
>> >> >> >> > arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
>> >> >> >> > has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
>> >> >> >> > otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
>> >> >> >> > the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
>> >> >> >> recommend doing this?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
>> >> >> have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.
>> >> >
>> >> > Mine does. And without referrals.
>> >>
>> >> Aren't you lucky; very few do.
>> >
>> > That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
>> > cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
>> > everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.
>>
>> There is a word for people that take tests just because the test exists.
>
> Off topic. Aviators need a healthy cardiac report.
Yeah, a standard report, not every test that exists.
>> >> >> And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
>> >> >> the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.
>> >> >
>> >> > No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
>> >> > such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
>> >> > because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
>> >> > may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
>> >> > failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
>> >> > be proven.
>> >>
>> >> You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
>> >> which don't require a medical?
>> >
>> > The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
>> > are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
>> > problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
>> > The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
>> > floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
>> > from this group too, is small to non-existent.
>>
>> Nonsense.
>>
>> There is nothing special about the physical requirments to fly in Class C
>> and the same investigative system investigates all aviation accidents
>> whether it is one guy in a hot air balloon or an airliner with hundreds
>> of people.
>>
>> While the absolute number of flight hours for balloon, glider, and light
>> sport pilots are smaller than for private pilots, the percentage of
>> medically caused accidents is not statistically different.
>
> Your entire argument here is mute, as it is predicated on the assumption
> that people who fly balloons, light sport, and gliders prove that 3rd
> class medicals are unnecessary. Captain Obvious says that we don't
> know what percentage of that community WOULD HAVE PASSED their 3RD class
> medical anyway. I'm telling you that this is a minority community, and
> the folks in that community who can't pass a 3rd class medical, are a
> minority of a minority, and the folks in that minority of a minority
> who end up in an *FAA report*, are a minority, of a minority, of a
> minority. Even with ALL THAT, you still have glider, ballonists, and
> light sport pilots in FAA reports due to medical reasons.
What happens to non-pilots is irrelevant to what happens to pilots.
The big push for 3rd class reform was higly motivated by the fact that
the RATE of medical incidents for light sport pilots, as well as glider
and balloon pilots, with no medical is not statistically different from
the RATE of medical incidents for pilots with a 3rd class medical.
Do you understand the difference between rate and absolute numbers?
Do you understand that the FAA investigates ALL aviation incidents
irrespective of medical, certification, of even if the pilot was
never certified?
>> >> >> > My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
>> >> >> > there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
>> >> >> > 10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
>> >> >> > don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
>> >> >> exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
>> >> >> that did not show up in a routine physical.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.
>> >>
>> >> No, not in droves, but it does happen.
>> >
>> > And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
>> > obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
>> > no benefit?
>>
>> **** happens.
>
> Irrelevant.
What it means is 100% detection of 100% of potential medical problems
is a fantasy.
>> Since the percentage of medically caused accidents are not statistically
>> different for those with a 3rd class medical and those without, the 3rd
>> class medical appears to serve no usefull purpose.
>
> Again, fails on the logical fallacy of assumption, and false analogy.
> You failed to consider the second group which would have passed the
> 3rd class medical.
Whether of not some group who did not take a 3rd class medical could
or could not pass it is irrelevant to the accident data for pilots.
The accident data is the accident data and that data shows that for
PILOTS, having a 3rd class medical makes no difference in the accident
rate.
One could assume that with the training ALL pilots receive, most people
are smart enough to not fly when they are not well.
>> >> >> So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?
>> >> >
>> >> > What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
>> >> > states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
>> >> > for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
>> >> > never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.
>> >>
>> >> But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
>> >> light sport pilots if it actually were happening.
>> >
>> > Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
>> > slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
>> > medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
>> > necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
>> > saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.
>>
>> No, there is no difference in the physical requirements for any type of
>> private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.
>
> There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. The 3rd class medical has professional (albeit
> often manipulatable) oversight by a doctor. The other group is the HONOR
> SYSTEM. Big difference.
Point totally missed.
The physical requirements on a pilot to operate an aircarft are not
different for any type of private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.
This has NOTHING to do with doctors.
>> And again, the same investigation applies to ALL accidents and the percentage
>> of medically related accidents is not statistically different for those
>> with a 3rd class physical and those without it.
>
> You can' plot statistics on that which goes unreported, like, when
> your little balloon lands in Martha's swimming pool. Very different
> than a Mooney missing the threshold.
All ACCIDENTS are investigated.
Your remark of "little balloon" is childish nonsense.
>> And there is STILL the requirement to get a phsical, just not all the
>> extra time, expense, and paperwork required for a 3rd class.
>
> No there isn't. Light Sport medicals, and Glider medicals aren't
> required at all.
We are discussing, well, at least I am, 3rd class medical reform.
And after the 3rd class medical is eliminated, there is STILL the
requirement to get a phsical and document it.
>> >> > Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
>> >> >
>> >> > (a) Myocardial infarction;
>> >> >
>> >> > (b) Angina pectoris;
>> >> >
>> >> > (c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;
>> >> >
>> >> > (d) Cardiac valve replacement;
>> >> >
>> >> > (e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or
>> >> >
>> >> > (f) Heart replacement.
>> >> >
>> >> > A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.
>> >>
>> >> All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.
>> >
>> > Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?
>>
>> Waivered means, after extensive tests, lots of time, lots of money, and
>> lots of paperwork, a bunch of doctors have decided you are fit to fly.
>
> That is perfectly acceptable.
>
>> You have a strange definition of "beat the system".
>
> Oh, I'm quite familiar with how it *actually* works, when the
> buddy system gives a guy a break. And frankly, most the time it's
> justified if proven as you say. And sometimes it's favoritism.
Getting signed off on the most minor of discrepancies is a major effort,
getting waivered is a HUGE effort.
And since getting a waiver usually takes the agreement of several private
doctors as well as FAA doctors, I don't see where you are coming from
with your snarky remark about "the buddy system".
>> >> And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
>> >> self certify.
>> >
>> > Like one fellow said:
>> >
>> > "All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly
>> > larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to
>> > justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the
>> > Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some
>> > maybe most pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the
>> > Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your
>> > AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's
>> > the point?"
>>
>> And doing so is both stupid and illegal.
>
> Ok. So given human nature, as it is, then you advocate oversight.
Yeah, every pilot should have a physical before each flight and be
connected to an EKG machine during flight, all of which should be
streamed in real time to the FAA.
Since most people do have a survival instinct, education appears to be
sufficient as has been shown by the accident history for light sport
pilots/
>> Also I highly doubt there are very many people that have a heart attack
>> and then go fly.
>
> No, they go fly, then they have the heart attack.
If they haven't had a history, there is no teason not to.
>> > So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
>> > I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
>> > take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
>> > Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.
>>
>> I highly doubt there are very many people that have bypass surgery or
>> a pace maker implanted and then go fly.
>
> I agree.
>
>> >> >> > You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
>> >> >> > afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
>> >> >> > is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
>> >> >> > numerous plane crashes.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
>> >> >> it is irrelevant to the issue.
>> >> >
>> >> > My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
>> >> > that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
>> >> > the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.
>> >>
>> >> And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
>> >> happens.
>> >
>> > Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
>> > suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
>> > These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
>> > disease is the number one killer.
>>
>> We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.
>
> Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
> by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
> most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
> and Anti-Behavior tendencies.
There has never been any test for Vertigo, Senility, or Anti-Behavior
tendencies in the 3rd class medical. The only thing even close is the
inner ear exam and basic balance test.
Where do you get this stuff?
>> >> >
>> >> >> > > >> >> There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
>> >> >> >> >> > doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
>> >> >> >> >> > insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> If what history?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
>> >> >> >> >> big problem.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
>> >> >> >> > and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
>> >> >> >> > quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
>> >> >> >> > a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
>> >> >> >> > be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
>> >> >> >> > very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
>> >> >> >> > Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
>> >> >> > cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
>> >> >> > commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
>> >> >> > I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
>> >> >> > abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?
>> >> >
>> >> > The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
>> >> > it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
>> >> > individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
>> >> > crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
>> >> > that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.
>> >>
>> >> You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
>> >> have NO medical requirements?
>> >
>> > No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
>> > enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
>> > Apples, oranges, hidden data.
>>
>> You seem to forget we are talking about the probability of medically
>> caused accidents and the same investigation happens for both people
>> without medicals and 3rd class holders.
>
> That's patently false. What about all the folks who can't pass a medical?
They never flew in the first place so they never had an aviation accident.
> Take a thousand of them and send them off flying and look at *those*
> statistics. Now look at the group who didn't take a medical. A high
> percentage of them COULD pass. And those who couldn't and end up in
> an FAA report... again, are a % of a % of a %.
Just another red herring.
>> And again, there is nothing special physcially about Class C airspace, or
>> Class B for that matter.
>
> Well, that isn't fully correct either. There is much more interaction,
> squawking, and memorization with these classes (I've landed Cessnas in
> Jetports) and it's done at higher speeds. Way different than throwing
> peanuts out of a balloon, or spiraling in circles over the bluff. You
> can't be larking in Class B and C.
Utter nonsense and I'm beginng to doubt you are a pilot at all.
The physical requirements are no different.
The control forces don't magically change when you fly into controlled
airspace.
The approach speed for an airplane is the approach speed.
Squawk codes are seldom changed in flight.
You don't memorize anything, you jot it down on your kneepad.
Throwing peanuts out of a balloon is illegal.
Busy uncontrolled airports are much more intense than any Class C or B
airport as you never know when some yahoo is going to appear out of
nowhere without having bothered to announce his presense.
>> You do know light sport pilots can fly in both, don't you?
>
> In limited capacity.
Nope, no different.
The ONLY diffenece is that the training for flying in Class B is part
of the private curriculum while for light sport it is additional training.
>> >> > Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
>> >>
>> >> Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.
>> >
>> > Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.
>>
>> A childish appeal to emotion.
>
> Oh, well you snipped the entire FAR requirements for mental standards
> and called it boring, so... I thought I'd keep it on your level.
Yes, posting in the entire FAR requirements for mental standards IS
boring; a link would have been much more appropriate.
>> >> >> > Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
>> >> >> get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, then, mental.
>> >>
>> >> As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?
>> >
>> > Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
>> > and crash".
>> >
>> > Then it would be gastrointestinal.
>>
>> So how does one medically diagnose get home-itis?
>
> Mental.
And the appropriate objective medical test is?
--
Jim Pennino
wrote:
> On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 6:32:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> > We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.
>>
>> Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
>> by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
>> most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
>> and Anti-Behavior tendencies.
>
> Typo. Should be, Anti-Social Behavior. As in, doesn't play well with others.
> Or make transceivers a priority. We all know that guy.
As the topic is 3rd class medical reform and there has never been any
tests for such conditions in the 3rd class medical examination, there
was no reason to post it in the first place.
--
Jim Pennino
< S N I P >
Ooops!
LOL! Just a well. We all know you can't pass your medical.
wrote:
>
> < S N I P >
>
> Ooops!
>
> LOL! Just a well. We all know you can't pass your medical.
I see; no rational response so you go to a childish ad hominem.
--
Jim Pennino
On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 3:07:02 PM UTC-4, Larry Dighera wrote:
>> The legislation specifically lists three medical areas of concern: cardiac,
>> mental health and neurological conditions.<<
Equally important should be diabetes, so... endocrinological.
Hypoglycemia is ubiquitous, and commonly results in mass confusion
and or black-outs.
---
wrote:
> On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 3:07:02 PM UTC-4, Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>>> The legislation specifically lists three medical areas of concern: cardiac,
>>> mental health and neurological conditions.<<
>
> Equally important should be diabetes, so... endocrinological.
> Hypoglycemia is ubiquitous, and commonly results in mass confusion
> and or black-outs.
Thank you for your input doctor, but diabetes has long been and continues to
be a disqualifying condition.
Oh, and diabetes doesn't cause mass confusion, it only causes confusion
in the person with diabetes.
Oh, and diabetes doesn't result in a black-out, it results in a coma from
which you never wake without treatment.
--
Jim Pennino
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.