Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 15:37:30 -0000, wrote:


Personally, I thought the medical requirements were a hold over of WWII
fighter pilot requirments.

--
Jim Pennino


How has the human body changed since then? :-)

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 15:37:30 -0000, wrote:


Personally, I thought the medical requirements were a hold over of WWII
fighter pilot requirments.

--
Jim Pennino


How has the human body changed since then? :-)

The average person is a bit taller and weighs more.

"Since data on Americans' average height was first collected in the early
20th century, children and adolescents grew about an inch and a half
taller every 20 years."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98438

Medical knowledge has changed a lot since then.

GA pilots do not engage in dogfights.

There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
has accomplished anything.


--
Jim Pennino

On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
has accomplished anything.

That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
has accomplished anything.

That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.

People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
logically it will become an issue.

---

---

wrote:
On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
has accomplished anything.

That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.

People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
logically it will become an issue.

I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.

There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.

A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.



--
Jim Pennino

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 17:22:48 -0000, wrote:

I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.

Here's a case in point:

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...6-17b4751406da
National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594

Accident
05/29/2007
LAX06FA043 File No. 21545 11/19/2005 Dana Point ,CA Aircraft Reg No. N546BC
Time (Local): 14:03 PST
Cessna/T210N Continental / TSIO-520-R9 Destroyed 1 None Personal Part 91:
General Aviation
San Diego, CA Santa Ana, CA Off Airport/Airstrip
1 0 0 3 0 0
Day Weather Observation Facility Visual Conditions None 10.00 SM Variable / 004
kts 28 No Obscuration; No Precipitation

The airplane impacted the ocean following a departure from controlled cruise
flight. The airplane had decelerated from 120 knots to approximately 60 knots
while maintaining an altitude of 3,500 feet mean sea level (msl), then
descended as rapidly as 7,000 feet per minute, finally spiraling toward the
ocean in a corkscrew manner before it impacted the water. No pre-accident
anomalies were noted with any systems examined, and no distress calls or
communications preceded or followed the upset. The autopsy report on the
51-year-old airline transport pilot was consistent with a condition known as
left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH), a substantially thickened main heart
chamber. It also noted moderate to severe coronary artery disease with
evidence of at least one prior small heart attack. The combination of coronary
artery disease and LVH would have substantially increased the risk for sudden
cardiac death in this pilot. There was no evidence that the pilot was aware of
his heart disease. The behavior of the aircraft cannot be explained by any
reasonable scenario in which the 11,500-hour pilot was deliberately controlling
the aircraft. Therefore, it seems likely that the pilot was unable to control
the aircraft, an inability that can reasonably be explained by an
incapacitating cardiac event.

51
Airline Transport; Flight Instructor; Commercial; Multi-engine Land;
Single-engine Land; Single-engine Sea
Airplane
11534 79 Unk/Nr UnK/Nr
Type of Flight Operation: Reg. Flight Conducted Under:
Brief of
LAX06FA043 File No. 21545 11/19/2005 Dana Point ,CA Aircraft Reg No. N546BC
Time (Local): 14:03 PST
Occurrence #1: LOSS OF CONTROL - IN FLIGHT Phase of Operation: CRUISE
- NORMAL
Findings 1. (C) AIRCRAFT CONTROL - NOT POSSIBLE - PILOT IN COMMAND 2.
AIRSPEED - NOT MAINTAINED - PILOT IN COMMAND 3. STALL/SPIN - INADVERTENT
- PILOT IN COMMAND 4. (C) INCAPACITATION(CARDIOVASCULAR) - PILOT IN
COMMAND ----------
Occurrence #2: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER Phase of
Operation: DESCENT - UNCONTROLLED
Findings 5. TERRAIN CONDITION - WATER
Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor
Accident (Continued)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows: The pilot's inability to maintain aircraft control,
which resulted in a loss of airspeed and a stall/spin. The inability of the
pilot to maintain control of the airplane was likely due to an incapacitating
cardiac event.

================================================== ==========
Newspaper account:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/n...in-family.html

Foothill Ranch pilot killed in crash
Nov. 25, 2005 Updated Aug. 21, 2013 1:17 p.m.
By ERIKA I. RITCHIE and LAYLAN CONNELLY / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

DANIEL NEUMAN
AGE: 51
RESIDENCE: Foothill Ranch
FAMILY: Wife, Zandra; children Nikolas, 13; Kayla, 10; Samantha, 7
PROFESSION: Pilot, flight instructor at Royal Aviation Flying Club and Orange
Coast College
EDUCATION: Orange Coast College
INFO: memorypost.com/dantheman

MEMORIAL: Dan Neuman Memorial Fund at Wells Fargo Bank, Account No. 8384621408
Flying for the Neuman family was life.

An early-morning breakfast in Fallbrook, a quick jaunt to San Diego for a
Chargers game and a hop over the mountains for a family vacation in Las Vegas -
that was what "Dan-the-Man" Neuman was about.

"It was a love we all shared," Zandra Neuman, his wife of 14 years, said Monday
at her home as her daughter Samantha flew a toy plane over her head. "Even
though it was his job, it was never a drag. Dan loved making safe pilots and
putting people out there who knew what to do in any situation. They would all
say the aviation world has lost a great teacher."

Neuman, a flight instructor at Orange Coast College, was flying the Cessna
T210N that crashed Saturday afternoon three nautical miles off Dana Point.

Family and friends are mourning Neuman and his three passengers, who were
flying back from an off-road race in Mexico. The others on the plane were
well-known off-road racer Jason Baldwin, 35, and his two longtime friends,
Jeffrey TenEyck, 35, and Rick Olauson, 36.

The victims were described as adventure- and thrill-seekers who lived life to
the fullest.

Neuman, 51, was the Baldwin family's private pilot. He was chief instructor,
part owner and founder of Royal Aviation Flying Club at John Wayne Airport. He
had more than 15,000 hours of flight time and also taught flight ground school
at Orange Coast College, said friend and pilot Nate Morrissey, 27.

Zandra Neuman, already a pilot, met her husband at the college and sometimes
sat in on his classes.

"The students whose lives he touched thought he was God," she said. "He had a
great way of passing on his knowledge. I've had young people calling and asking
for him. They just want to think he's OK and it wasn't really him."

The plane was on its way back from San Felipe, Mexico, after Baldwin competed
in the Baja 1000. It was en route to John Wayne Airport when it crashed.

Nicole Charon, from the National Transportation Safety Board, said
investigators were gathering maintenance and pilot records Monday. There was no
communication from the plane once it left San Diego after a customs stop, but
investigators have radar information showing it was cruising at 3,500 feet in a
northwest direction.

The single-engine plane and the four occupants were recovered Tuesday night
from about 200 feet down on the ocean floor.

Fellow pilots who worked with Neuman at Royal Aviation were in shock Monday.

"I'm not sure reality has set in," said Reza Malek, 23, a pilot and instructor.
"This was the last person this should happen to. We want answers. We're all
thinking something physical must have happened to him or the plane. Pilot error
is not an option with Dan."

Jason Baldwin competed against his younger brother, Josh Baldwin, in the Baja
race. "We're all having a really tough time," said Josh Baldwin, 29. "Our
family is so close. It's like a circle and now there's a piece missing. But
he's only physically missing."

Baldwin's sister, Kelley Renezeder, said they will continue doing the things
her brother loved most - diving, snorkeling with his two young daughters, and
racing.

"We will carry our brother high on our shoulders," she said.

Josh plans on using his brother's number 56 in future races.

Jeffrey TenEyck had known Jason Baldwin since nursery school. Although TenEyck
moved out of Laguna Beach to go to college in Colorado, the two remained close.

TenEyck joined on the trip to "chase" Baldwin, meaning he was following his
vehicle with spare parts and fuel during the race.

Susan Champion, TenEyck's mother, said her son was supposed to visit for dinner
at her Corona del Mar home the night of the crash.

A few months ago, TenEyck bought a home with his fiancée, Jennifer Husman, in
Jackson Hole, Wyo. The two were to marry in April.

"Now instead of having a wedding, we're planning a funeral," Champion said,
choking back tears.

Champion and other family members went to the crash site Monday to scatter
flowers in the water.

"He loved his friends, he loved his family. He would walk into a room and make
everyone laugh," said his sister, Tori Keyes.

Zandra Neuman said the tragedy won't keep her family from the sky.

"I'm expecting Dan's friends to keep my kids in the air," she said. "I know
it's safe. Things just happen sometimes. I know airplanes just don't drop out
of the air."

"When I play with planes, I think I'm with my daddy," said Samantha Neuman, 7.


================================================== ===========

My Jan 8, 2007 post to this newsgroup:

In Memory of Dan Neuman
While researching Dan Neuman's contact information for a friend who
wants to get current again, I learned of the news of Dan's last
flight. At the moment I am weeping over our tragic loss, but I feel
compelled to contribute something to his memory.

Dan returned me to flight status in 1996 after 17 years away from
aviation. It was his patient, thoughtful, and insightful tutelage
that enabled me to return to life in the third dimension. Later, in
1998, Dan trained me for my instrument rating. I recall well one IMC
flight to KVNY that February second.

Two dripping wet flight instructors burst into the Royal Aviation
office loudly remarking about their turbulent flight in the storm
going on overhead that afternoon. They were exuberantly remarking
about how bad the weather was, and how it had been nearly impossible
to remain in control of their little Cessna 152. Dan looked at me and
asked if I still wanted to fly our scheduled lesson. Not knowing any
better, I thought it was a good opportunity to get some more actual
IMC experience, so I said yes. We'd be flying the Archer with a
little heavier wing loading, so it should be a bit more stable. Dan
was game, and I trusted his judgment, so we got a SID and launched.

The ceiling was low, and there was a lot of convective activity, but
we managed to bounce along in the gray-black clag through KLAX Class
B. The KLAX approach controller sounded like a non-stop auctioneer
without waiting for pilot acknowledgements to his calls. His
intensity added to the tumult we were all experiencing.

I was fighting to keep within 30 degrees of our assigned heading as
the turbulence tossed us back and forth. It was the roughest flight I
had ever experienced, and I was clammy with perspiration from trying
to retain control. Dan was cool, and let me keep at it without
interfering.

Things finally settled down a bit as we were cleared for the KVNY
Runway 34L ILS approach. There was a pretty good cross wind component
and it was still very gusty. We broke out of the ceiling lined up
with the runway centerline, and as I was about to touch down, a gust
nearly blew us off the western edge. Dan was calm and cool. Thanks
to his courage and confidence, I now knew what to expect when I had to
face real-weather IFR conditions. That sort of preparation is
priceless.

Dan was a real prince. He never bragged, or behaved boisterously like
some arrogant pilots. He maintained his cool, professional, cordial
demeanor, and I've always tried to emulate his thoughtful prudence as
a pilot. He's with me on every flight; still today I hear his terse,
calm instructions as I ply the skies. Dan "The Man" Neuman may no
longer walk the Earth, but he lives in the hearts and minds of the
hundreds of airmen he trained.

Dan said it well:


THOUGHT FOR THE DAY (month - year etc.?)

Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying
accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon
the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in
it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. -- that his
judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. -- Every
instructor, supervisor and contemporary who ever spoke to him, had
an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all
of us goes with every pilot we lose.

http://www.memorypost.com/post.php?id=334
Dan Neuman "Dan the Man"

http://www.memorypost.com/gallery.ph...4&imageid=1409

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...6-17b4751406da

The airplane impacted the ocean following a departure from controlled cruise
flight. The airplane had decelerated from 120 knots to approximately 60 knots
while maintaining an altitude of 3,500 feet mean sea level (msl), then
descended as rapidly as 7,000 feet per minute, finally spiraling toward the
ocean in a corkscrew manner before it impacted the water. No pre-accident
anomalies were noted with any systems examined, and no distress calls or
communications preceded or followed the upset. The autopsy report on the
51-year-old airline transport pilot was consistent with a condition known as
left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH), a substantially thickened main heart
chamber. It also noted moderate to severe coronary artery disease with
evidence of at least one prior small heart attack. The combination of coronary
artery disease and LVH would have substantially increased the risk for sudden
cardiac death in this pilot. There was no evidence that the pilot was aware of
his heart disease. The behavior of the aircraft cannot be explained by any
reasonable scenario in which the 11,500-hour pilot was deliberately controlling
the aircraft. Therefore, it seems likely that the pilot was unable to control
the aircraft, an inability that can reasonably be explained by an
incapacitating cardiac event.
51
Airline Transport; Flight Instructor; Commercial; Multi-engine Land;
Single-engine Land; Single-engine Sea
Airplane
11534 79 Unk/Nr UnK/Nr
Type of Flight Operation: Reg. Flight Conducted Under:
Brief of
LAX06FA043 File No. 21545 11/19/2005 Dana Point ,CA Aircraft Reg No. N546BC
Time (Local): 14:03 PST
Occurrence #1: LOSS OF CONTROL - IN FLIGHT Phase of Operation: CRUISE
- NORMAL
Findings 1. (C) AIRCRAFT CONTROL - NOT POSSIBLE - PILOT IN COMMAND 2.
AIRSPEED - NOT MAINTAINED - PILOT IN COMMAND 3. STALL/SPIN - INADVERTENT
- PILOT IN COMMAND 4. (C) INCAPACITATION(CARDIOVASCULAR) - PILOT IN
COMMAND ----------
Occurrence #2: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER Phase of
Operation: DESCENT - UNCONTROLLED
Findings 5. TERRAIN CONDITION - WATER
Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor
Accident (Continued)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows: The pilot's inability to maintain aircraft control,
which resulted in a loss of airspeed and a stall/spin. The inability of the
pilot to maintain control of the airplane was likely due to an incapacitating
cardiac event.

On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 1:31:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, Vaughn Simon wrote:
On 7/20/2016 8:44 PM, wrote:
There is no data showing having all GA pilots take a 3rd class medical
has accomplished anything.

That's the real take-away point. After doing this for (what? a half
century?) there is no data that shows that the third class physical does
anything to reduce accidents. At the same time, we have parallel
populations of pilots, glider pilots in particular, that have long
operated perfectly well without any requirement for physicals.

People who got turned down due to medical reasons, and then later
dropped dead at the grocery store, aren't statistically charted
by someone who follows their lives and makes an FAA report after
the fact. Same for mentally unstable. If they commit suicide, no
one calls the FAA about a non-pilot. In flight medical emergencies
being a small percentage anyway, would appear to be a non-issue
among a smaller population of flyers. Should that population
significantly increase, and should there be no oversight, then
logically it will become an issue.

I watched a guy in his 40's drop dead while sipping a cup of coffee
the day after an extensive physical; a physical in general is no
guarantee of much of anything, and particularly a 3rd class physical.

Then maybe under the new rules there should be a few *specific*
tests relevant to piloting. The first one being a "plaque test",
and then a focus on possible hypertension.

There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.

Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.

A lot of peiple are missing the point that you do still need to take
a physical, just not one with the FAA paperwork burden in front of an AME.

To tell you the truth, I'd rather go before an AME than a non-pilot
GP who's lack of familiarity with the experience would cause them to
flag non-issues off the "top of their head".

---

Mark



--
Jim Pennino