Minooka Accident?

[[email protected]]

Anyone in Chicago area know of a glider incident Saturday? We received a sketchy third hand notification and have mostly non pilot friends there. Thank for any steerage or link. Karen

[Renny[_2_]]

On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Anyone in Chicago area know of a glider incident Saturday? We received a sketchy third hand notification and have mostly non pilot friends there. Thank for any steerage or link. Karen

Sad news...

http://www.theherald-news.com/2016/08/07/tinley-park-pilot-dies-in-minooka-after-glider-crashes-into-field/a9fcd8u/

[Gianni Isotope]

Another early news report: http://patch.com/illinois/channahon-minooka/glider-crash-claims-tinley-park-man-s-life

[Skytime]

On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 10:45:03 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Anyone in Chicago area know of a glider incident Saturday? We received a sketchy third hand notification and have mostly non pilot friends there. Thank for any steerage or link. Karen

Witnesses said that they saw one of wings of the glider "dip" shortly after it was released from the tow plane. The glider then stalled and "nose dived" into the field.
No other details of the accident. The initial accident report from the FAA indicates that the aircraft was a PLZ Bielsko SZD55 glider of "pending" registration. It is classified as an "Experimental" aircraft in the "Racing" category.

[[email protected]]

> Witnesses said that they saw one of wings of the glider "dip" shortly after it was released from the tow plane. The glider then stalled and "nose dived" into the field.
> No other details of the accident. The initial accident report from the FAA indicates that the aircraft was a PLZ Bielsko SZD55 glider of "pending" registration. It is classified as an "Experimental" aircraft in the "Racing" category.

The preliminary report is now available on ntsb page. Has a little clearer description of events. Horrible and unneeded loss.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 11:15:12 AM UTC-6, Renny wrote:
> On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > Anyone in Chicago area know of a glider incident Saturday? We received a sketchy third hand notification and have mostly non pilot friends there. Thank for any steerage or link. Karen
>
> Sad news...
>
> http://www.theherald-news.com/2016/08/07/tinley-park-pilot-dies-in-minooka-after-glider-crashes-into-field/a9fcd8u/

The NTSB preliminary report has now been posted...

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160807X20843&key=1&queryId=0190ba5d-d6df-4b79-9c4a-7aa744429207&pgno=3&pgsize=200

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 2:46:34 AM UTC+12, wrote:
> On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 11:15:12 AM UTC-6, Renny wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > Anyone in Chicago area know of a glider incident Saturday? We received a sketchy third hand notification and have mostly non pilot friends there.. Thank for any steerage or link. Karen
> >
> > Sad news...
> >
> > http://www.theherald-news.com/2016/08/07/tinley-park-pilot-dies-in-minooka-after-glider-crashes-into-field/a9fcd8u/
>
> The NTSB preliminary report has now been posted...
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160807X20843&key=1&queryId=0190ba5d-d6df-4b79-9c4a-7aa744429207&pgno=3&pgsize=200

Bloody 'ell!

I was confused by the term "chin tow cable release". Looking at photos, it seems the '55 has the aerotow hook approximately under the instrument panel..

http://www.wildbergair.com/photos/airports/Austria/LOXN/090314/20090314_051..JPG

According to manufacturer's information, they can come with a hook "on the nose section" (NOT "on the nose"), on the undercarriage fork, or both. Winching is to be carried out only on the hook on the undercarriage, aerotow can be done on the winching hook if that is the only one fitted.

That raises some questions:

- did the NTSB inspector check for a tow hook on the undercarriage? Was there one? Was it in use on this launch? Have to assume no to all three questions, as they didn't mention one and they're not idiots.

- is the aerotow hook far enough back to cause a noticeable pitch up if a slack tow rope comes tight suddenly?

- the report says the glider was pointing left with the left wing down on the second wing drop. Did it slalom enough to get slack rope on recovery?

It's hard to imagine why you'd get a 30 - 40 degree pitch up unless the glider decided to winch launch behind the towplane. Short of an incapacitated pilot anyway.

[FZ[_2_]]

There is a history of collapsing of the back rest in SZD-55.
Mine was equipped by the previous owner with a custom made wood inserts, supposedly preventing of such events. Collapsing of the back rest would certainly cause pilot to fall back and sudden back pull on the stick.
Following stall would be consistent with this scenario.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 4:16:20 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 2:46:34 AM UTC+12, wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 11:15:12 AM UTC-6, Renny wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > > Anyone in Chicago area know of a glider incident Saturday? We received a sketchy third hand notification and have mostly non pilot friends there. Thank for any steerage or link. Karen
> > >
> > > Sad news...
> > >
> > > http://www.theherald-news.com/2016/08/07/tinley-park-pilot-dies-in-minooka-after-glider-crashes-into-field/a9fcd8u/
> >
> > The NTSB preliminary report has now been posted...
> >
> > http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160807X20843&key=1&queryId=0190ba5d-d6df-4b79-9c4a-7aa744429207&pgno=3&pgsize=200
>
> Bloody 'ell!
>
> I was confused by the term "chin tow cable release". Looking at photos, it seems the '55 has the aerotow hook approximately under the instrument panel.
>
> http://www.wildbergair.com/photos/airports/Austria/LOXN/090314/20090314_051.JPG
>
> According to manufacturer's information, they can come with a hook "on the nose section" (NOT "on the nose"), on the undercarriage fork, or both. Winching is to be carried out only on the hook on the undercarriage, aerotow can be done on the winching hook if that is the only one fitted.
>
> That raises some questions:
>
> - did the NTSB inspector check for a tow hook on the undercarriage? Was there one? Was it in use on this launch? Have to assume no to all three questions, as they didn't mention one and they're not idiots.
>
> - is the aerotow hook far enough back to cause a noticeable pitch up if a slack tow rope comes tight suddenly?
>
> - the report says the glider was pointing left with the left wing down on the second wing drop. Did it slalom enough to get slack rope on recovery?
>
> It's hard to imagine why you'd get a 30 - 40 degree pitch up unless the glider decided to winch launch behind the towplane. Short of an incapacitated pilot anyway.

The term "chin hook" seems to well describe the low forward hooks some gliders have to try to comply with the expectation of a nose hook. Being further forward will likely help with yaw to some degree, but most are not all that much higher than the CG hook and thus will only have limited benefit in terms of pitching moment when the big yank comes.
True nose hooks accomplish both.
Another example of not pulling the release early when stuff starts to go wrong. My comment assumes pilot could get to the release.
Sad
UH

[IA DPE]

I believe that ship sold on W&W just a few months ago, as I called about it.

[[email protected]]

That's very interesting... where can one find this 'History'?


On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 6:33:59 PM UTC-4, FZ wrote:
> There is a history of collapsing of the back rest in SZD-55.
> Mine was equipped by the previous owner with a custom made wood inserts, supposedly preventing of such events. Collapsing of the back rest would certainly cause pilot to fall back and sudden back pull on the stick.
> Following stall would be consistent with this scenario.

If my back support was being reinforced with wooden blocks I would assume something was broken and it would not be flown until fixed!

Regards,

Bob 7U

[FZ[_2_]]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:40:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> That's very interesting... where can one find this 'History'?
>
>
> On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 6:33:59 PM UTC-4, FZ wrote:
> > There is a history of collapsing of the back rest in SZD-55.
> > Mine was equipped by the previous owner with a custom made wood inserts, supposedly preventing of such events. Collapsing of the back rest would certainly cause pilot to fall back and sudden back pull on the stick.
> > Following stall would be consistent with this scenario.
>
> If my back support was being reinforced with wooden blocks I would assume something was broken and it would not be flown until fixed!
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob 7U

We are not talking here of some broken parts or wooden blocks.
The back-rest is adjustable by moving of two rails into one of few positions/cutouts/notches. Fixed pins go into notches and should stay there by the virtue of two springs pulling the rails downward. Sit stays put.
Given some unusual movement of pilot ( see dropped wing twice, some action inside a cockpit) it may happen that the springs are not pulling the rail strong enough to keep the rail in the selected position.
To prevent this from happening you will insert into the rails two long pieces of plastic or wood of certain shape. It positively prevent the movement of rails and back-rest.
I don't know if this is a factory part or some custom made improvement. SZD manual do not say anything on sit adjustment. It would be a good idea to ask the manufacturer.

[RW[_2_]]

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 5:29:50 PM UTC-4, FZ wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:40:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > That's very interesting... where can one find this 'History'?
> >
> >
> > On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 6:33:59 PM UTC-4, FZ wrote:
> > > There is a history of collapsing of the back rest in SZD-55.
> > > Mine was equipped by the previous owner with a custom made wood inserts, supposedly preventing of such events. Collapsing of the back rest would certainly cause pilot to fall back and sudden back pull on the stick.
> > > Following stall would be consistent with this scenario.
> >
> > If my back support was being reinforced with wooden blocks I would assume something was broken and it would not be flown until fixed!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bob 7U
>
> We are not talking here of some broken parts or wooden blocks.
> The back-rest is adjustable by moving of two rails into one of few positions/cutouts/notches. Fixed pins go into notches and should stay there by the virtue of two springs pulling the rails downward. Sit stays put.
> Given some unusual movement of pilot ( see dropped wing twice, some action inside a cockpit) it may happen that the springs are not pulling the rail strong enough to keep the rail in the selected position.
> To prevent this from happening you will insert into the rails two long pieces of plastic or wood of certain shape. It positively prevent the movement of rails and back-rest.
> I don't know if this is a factory part or some custom made improvement. SZD manual do not say anything on sit adjustment. It would be a good idea to ask the manufacturer.

Someone should check the wreck if there is anything there to help jamming adjustment of the back rest.
Ship was designed for too easy adjustment,maybe for club fliers.
I lock it by 2 1 foot long 1/4 inch thick plexiglass sticks with springs on the ends for locking on the end of tracks.
It looks like a factory made.
Other point of interest is the clip holding down ruder.
I found this piece many times missing or badly corroded,by pilots urine.
Ryszard Krolikowski RW

[[email protected]]

Yes, for sure, someone in the Chicago club should take a look at the wreckage to see if the seat back is broken. If it is, then contact the investigators (NTSB & FAA) and tell them what was found. I was at the field when a G-103 flew into the cliff, short of the runway. All the Federalli was interested in was checking AD's and to see if the ship was in annual. Glider pilots found the cause which was spoiler opened too far because of a worn stop, resulting in spoiler plate jammed on top of wing skin. Also, fill out a malfunction or defect report with your findings and send it to your local Feds and NTSB.
JJ

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 6:42:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Yes, for sure, someone in the Chicago club should take a look at the wreckage to see if the seat back is broken. If it is, then contact the investigators (NTSB & FAA) and tell them what was found. I was at the field when a G-103 flew into the cliff, short of the runway. All the Federalli was interested in was checking AD's and to see if the ship was in annual. Glider pilots found the cause which was spoiler opened too far because of a worn stop, resulting in spoiler plate jammed on top of wing skin. Also, fill out a malfunction or defect report with your findings and send it to your local Feds and NTSB.
> JJ

Absolutely. We should not rely on NTSB to find the root cause of accidents for us and we should not assume that they're not idiots. All they care about is filling the blanks in their accident report forms. The only useful accident reports I've seen were those which received good information either from the pilot involved, or other pilots.
If it will be found that the backrest was the likely cause, this will be yet another case of accident which could have been avoided if the pilot knew about an issue. There should have been an AD. I cant count how many fatalities could have been avoided if the pilots were aware of potential issues with their gliders. So far I found RAS to be the most reliable source of such knowledge. There should be a database for such things.

According to NTSB, this was the first glider fatality this year. Unfortunately, there was another one near Minden the following day:
http://mynews4.com/news/local/glider-pilot-killed-in-crash-east-of-minden-tahoe-airport

Ramy

[Eric Munk]

At 19:08 17 August 2016, Ramy wrote:
> There should be a database for such things.=20

There is. https://members.gliding.co.uk/library/tns/

[James Thomson[_2_]]

At 06:17 18 August 2016, Eric Munk wrote:
>At 19:08 17 August 2016, Ramy wrote:
>> There should be a database for such things.=20
>
>There is. https://members.gliding.co.uk/library/tns/
>
The database is in the BGA Compendium, easily accessible via this link:

https://members.gliding.co.uk/airworthiness-2/airworthiness-
directives/

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 3:08:04 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 6:42:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Yes, for sure, someone in the Chicago club should take a look at the wreckage to see if the seat back is broken. If it is, then contact the investigators (NTSB & FAA) and tell them what was found. I was at the field when a G-103 flew into the cliff, short of the runway. All the Federalli was interested in was checking AD's and to see if the ship was in annual. Glider pilots found the cause which was spoiler opened too far because of a worn stop, resulting in spoiler plate jammed on top of wing skin. Also, fill out a malfunction or defect report with your findings and send it to your local Feds and NTSB.
> > JJ
>
> Absolutely. We should not rely on NTSB to find the root cause of accidents for us and we should not assume that they're not idiots. All they care about is filling the blanks in their accident report forms. The only useful accident reports I've seen were those which received good information either from the pilot involved, or other pilots.
> If it will be found that the backrest was the likely cause, this will be yet another case of accident which could have been avoided if the pilot knew about an issue. There should have been an AD. I cant count how many fatalities could have been avoided if the pilots were aware of potential issues with their gliders. So far I found RAS to be the most reliable source of such knowledge. There should be a database for such things.
>
> According to NTSB, this was the first glider fatality this year. Unfortunately, there was another one near Minden the following day:
> http://mynews4.com/news/local/glider-pilot-killed-in-crash-east-of-minden-tahoe-airport
>
> Ramy

It would take some care to determine if the seat moved before the accident, or as a result of the accident. Obviously if it is in the "correct" position, one could probably remove as an issue.
Many tow releases are hard to get to, especially in emergencies or maybe a slipped seat. For a number of ships with low center releases, a loop of parachute cord connected to the release, and laid over the left thigh during launch, can be a meaningful safety improvement.
Lastly- Emergency plan. Ya gotta have one. Right at the top of that plan list is "If something starts to go wrong- I will released and tray again". That includes a wing dropping and hitting the ground in many(most?) cases.
FWIW
UH

[Dan Marotta]

How do you find information for a particular type of glider? Is there
some way to cross reference from the TN numbers?

On 8/19/2016 3:17 AM, James Thomson wrote:
> At 06:17 18 August 2016, Eric Munk wrote:
>> At 19:08 17 August 2016, Ramy wrote:
>>> There should be a database for such things.=20
>> There is. https://members.gliding.co.uk/library/tns/
>>
> The database is in the BGA Compendium, easily accessible via this link:
>
> https://members.gliding.co.uk/airworthiness-2/airworthiness-
> directives/
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 09:56:03 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

> How do you find information for a particular type of glider? Is there
> some way to cross reference from the TN numbers?
>
Click the 'Search Airworthiness Library' on the lower right of that page
and enter a word or phrase on the search page that brings up. "SZD55"
brings up two references (the BGA data sheet and a German TN page).



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[James Thomson[_2_]]

At 15:56 19 August 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
>How do you find information for a particular type of glider? Is there
>some way to cross reference from the TN numbers?
>
>On 8/19/2016 3:17 AM, James Thomson wrote:
>> At 06:17 18 August 2016, Eric Munk wrote:
>>> At 19:08 17 August 2016, Ramy wrote:
>>>> There should be a database for such things.=20
>>> There is. https://members.gliding.co.uk/library/tns/
>>>
>> The database is in the BGA Compendium, easily accessible via this
link:
>>
>> https://members.gliding.co.uk/airworthiness-2/airworthiness-
>> directives/
>>
>
>--
>Dan, 5J

On the BGA page scroll down to find the list of manufacturers and type
certificate holders. Click on the one of interest (eg Allstar PZL)
You will now be offered a pdf of reported problems - both general for
the manufacturer and type specific. Each entry identifies the relevant
TNS for more information.

[[email protected]]

I had a seat back failure in my youth (hundred years ago) I was driving my 1939 ford, doing about 40 when suddenly I was in the back seat looking at the cieling! A drunk, driving an Oldsmobile, ran into me. I can still remember pulling myself back up into the normal driving position.
Suppose this is what happened to the pilot in this accident? Will anyone ever know why he crashed? Most failures leave whitness marks, I'll bet carefully examination could determine if it failed in the aft direction.
JJ