Aerobatic Two Seat Gliders?

[Terry Pitts]

There was a recent thread about inexpensive two seat gliders. I made me wonder how crazy I might be.

I'd like to buy a two seat glider that could be used for beginner to intermediate-ish aerobatics. Fun for me, perhaps someone might want to do some aerobatics for a flight review instead of an hour in a thermal. Etc.

Some options include:

L-23
L-13AC
Kr-03a
G-103 (Some)
SF-34
SZD 50-3
What else?

Way out of my price range: ASK-21. Way beyond my needs or desires: MDM-1 Fox (Though I've enjoyed it) and Perkoz.

I am in Germany at the moment. I will return to the USA in the not too distant future. Right now there is a Krosno for sale in Poland. There's a Puchacz for sale in Germany. The Krosno is much cheaper (12,500 Euro, plus open trailer) than the Puchacz (30,000 Euro plus open trailer). The Krosno is back on the market after a prospective buyer couldn't get financing.

People I trust have advised me to buy or run from both of these!

In some ways buying an existing glider in the USA is a better idea since all the issues associated with emigration are resolved - shipping, instruments, registration, etc.

Buing a glider in the UK would solve the instrument units issue. Something in Canada would even solve the shipping issue, but is hard for me to get to for a weekend visit.

There's an L-13AC on W&W at a price I think is too high. At least for my budget.

I realize an Export Certificate of Airworthiness is required. Ditto with deregistration with the local civil aviation authority, etc.

If I choose to import something, it has to arrive in the USA at a total cost less than or equal to what it's worth there or it makes little/no sense.

A practical question - how do you remove painted on registration markings?

Not really a rhetorical question - am I out of my mind? Looking for the collective wisdom/knowledge of the group...

Terry

PS the Dollar is about ten percent better against the Euro than a year ago.

[Roy B.]

Consider a Schweizer 2-32. I've done lots of loops, spins & slow rolls in them. Rugged as anything, very responsive, real terminal velocity limiting brakes, and not that expensive. Just don't tell Mom what you are doing . . .
ROY

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 12:48:16 AM UTC+3, Terry Pitts wrote:
> There was a recent thread about inexpensive two seat gliders. I made me wonder how crazy I might be.
>
> I'd like to buy a two seat glider that could be used for beginner to intermediate-ish aerobatics. Fun for me, perhaps someone might want to do some aerobatics for a flight review instead of an hour in a thermal. Etc.
>
> Some options include:
>
> L-23
> L-13AC
> Kr-03a
> G-103 (Some)
> SF-34
> SZD 50-3
> What else?
>
> Way out of my price range: ASK-21. Way beyond my needs or desires: MDM-1 Fox (Though I've enjoyed it) and Perkoz.
>
> I am in Germany at the moment. I will return to the USA in the not too distant future. Right now there is a Krosno for sale in Poland. There's a Puchacz for sale in Germany. The Krosno is much cheaper (12,500 Euro, plus open trailer) than the Puchacz (30,000 Euro plus open trailer). The Krosno is back on the market after a prospective buyer couldn't get financing.
>
> People I trust have advised me to buy or run from both of these!
>
> In some ways buying an existing glider in the USA is a better idea since all the issues associated with emigration are resolved - shipping, instruments, registration, etc.
>
> Buing a glider in the UK would solve the instrument units issue. Something in Canada would even solve the shipping issue, but is hard for me to get to for a weekend visit.
>
> There's an L-13AC on W&W at a price I think is too high. At least for my budget.
>
> I realize an Export Certificate of Airworthiness is required. Ditto with deregistration with the local civil aviation authority, etc.
>
> If I choose to import something, it has to arrive in the USA at a total cost less than or equal to what it's worth there or it makes little/no sense..
>
> A practical question - how do you remove painted on registration markings?
>
> Not really a rhetorical question - am I out of my mind? Looking for the collective wisdom/knowledge of the group...
>
> Terry
>
> PS the Dollar is about ten percent better against the Euro than a year ago.

DG500/505/1000/1001

Older ones are presumably not too expensive now. (There are also rather old K21s, since it's a 39 year old model!)

I'm just not sure that "cheap" and "aerobatic" belong in the same sentence!!!

[[email protected]]

If price is an issue, I wonder how you plan to stay current. Tows with my B4 are roughly 40 euro to 3500ft.

If you are set on being able to do aerobatics, why not look for a 21 or DG-1000 and try to pay the glider back using aerobatic rides?

My club offers these on our DGs and people happily pay 75 euros for a tow to 2500ft with some loops and chandelles.

I personally like the 21 over the DG, but the latter probably offers better value for money, due to the wider weight restrictions and increased glide performance.

Have flown 21,DG and Fox. Own a B4.

[Terry Pitts]

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 10:03:45 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> If price is an issue, I wonder how you plan to stay current. Tows with my B4 are roughly 40 euro to 3500ft.

I average about 100 glider flights a year. I stay current. In the winter, too. It's not about currency. It's not even about what I can afford. It's about how much I'm willing to spend on something that's frivolously for fun. (I also do power aerobatics at 249 Euro/hour.)

> If you are set on being able to do aerobatics, why not look for a 21 or DG-1000 and try to pay the glider back using aerobatic rides?

$100,000 for a DG-1000 is over $1,000/month at 5% for 10 years. I'm not going to "pay that back using aerobatic rides."

There is currently a 1983 K-21 listed with an asking price of 69,000 Euro ($77,000). It will likely sell for close to that. My budget is about $35,000..

>
> My club offers these on our DGs and people happily pay 75 euros for a tow to 2500ft with some loops and chandelles.

Why only to 2,500 ft? That only gives 1,000' for aerobatics. I've seen people pay $200 for a tow to 4,000' for an aerobatic ride.

> Have flown 21,DG and Fox. Own a B4.

Same as above except I've only flown a B4 rather than owning one. Rather like the B4 actually.

I am asking for help in finding an aerobatic capable two seat glider that I can use for an occasional contest at my basic level and give some training.. An SGS 2-32 might do loops and rolls, but likely not much else for sportsman aerobatics. Picking on my budget or suggesting gliders that I've clearly indicated are outside my price range by a factor of 2 or 3 does not help.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 12:45:17 PM UTC+3, Terry Pitts wrote:
> On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 10:03:45 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> > If price is an issue, I wonder how you plan to stay current. Tows with my B4 are roughly 40 euro to 3500ft.
>
> I average about 100 glider flights a year. I stay current. In the winter, too. It's not about currency. It's not even about what I can afford. It's about how much I'm willing to spend on something that's frivolously for fun.. (I also do power aerobatics at 249 Euro/hour.)
>
> > If you are set on being able to do aerobatics, why not look for a 21 or DG-1000 and try to pay the glider back using aerobatic rides?
>
> $100,000 for a DG-1000 is over $1,000/month at 5% for 10 years. I'm not going to "pay that back using aerobatic rides."

About $1060, yes. If, as you say (and I agree), people will pay $200 for an aerobatic ride, then that's only five flights a month. Seven if it's $50 for a tow and $150 for the glider.

Capacity-wise, you could do that in a day.

Seems like it's a matter of marketing, not finance.

[[email protected]]

For 35k I can't help you.

Single seaters like the B4 or Salto are within reach, with a good trailer and some spare change for instruments and maintainance.

[Tango Whisky]

2 seats for 35k, that's about a Grob Twin 1 which does aerobatics reasonably well.

[Vaughn Simon[_2_]]

On 1/22/2017 4:45 AM, Terry Pitts wrote:
> An SGS 2-32 might do loops and rolls, but likely not much else for sportsman aerobatics.

Well then you can also eliminate the Krosno, which (at least in my copy
of the flight manual) doesn't even include rolls in its approved
maneuvers list. As a basic trainer and a glider rides bird I LOVE the
Krosno, and have more time in it than any other glider. But I have
trouble seeing it as an aero trainer.

[Dan Marotta]

I recall doing aerobatics in a Twin Astir, FWIW.

On 1/22/2017 2:08 PM, Tango Whisky wrote:
> 2 seats for 35k, that's about a Grob Twin 1 which does aerobatics reasonably well.

--
Dan, 5J

[Papa3[_2_]]

We used to have a KR-03 in the fleet where I did commercial rides. VNE is (from memory) not much over 100kts. Very easy to exceed that in any sort of botched maneuver. I did some dual aerobatic instruction in a Blanik L-13AC, which was actually quite nice. Better roll rate than the Grob 103 and a relatively decent VNE. Spins nicely.

The type certificate data sheets and AD history for all of the gliders you've listed are available online. I'd spend some time going through those as well as online copies of POHs. Especially if you are planning to take others up, it would be nice if you were operating within the current limitations. For example, Service Bulletin SA-003 prohibits aerobatics in Schweizer gliders overriding the POH (answering the question about an SGS-2-32).

[Eurofighter]

The IS28B2 is well within your budget. It might suit your needs.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 4:29:51 AM UTC+3, Papa3 wrote:
> We used to have a KR-03 in the fleet where I did commercial rides. VNE is (from memory) not much over 100kts. Very easy to exceed that in any sort of botched maneuver. I did some dual aerobatic instruction in a Blanik L-13AC, which was actually quite nice. Better roll rate than the Grob 103 and a relatively decent VNE. Spins nicely.

Yes, Blaniks are very manoeuvrable. We did a lot of aero in them back in the 80s. I'd be more worried now about whether they are as strong as they should be! They're pretty draggy and will lose energy and height quicker than the glass gliders. But on the other hand you've got to work REALLY hard to get them to 135 knots! Seriously nose down. And the brakes limit you to about 120 knots even in a vertical dive.

[Papa3[_2_]]

Bruce,

The L-13AC is a different aircraft. It's more of an L-23 but shortened wings, no flaps, and new empennage optimized for aerobatics. Good compromise between maneuverability without being too slick for newbies.

P3

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 7:19:58 PM UTC+3, Papa3 wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> The L-13AC is a different aircraft. It's more of an L-23 but shortened wings, no flaps, and new empennage optimized for aerobatics. Good compromise between maneuverability without being too slick for newbies.

Ahh, missed that. Thanks.

[[email protected]]

"Service Bulletin SA-003 prohibits aerobatics in Schweizer gliders overriding the POH (answering the question about an SGS-2-32)."

Actually, legally it doesn't. A service bulletin or note or advisory about an aircraft cannot override the approved flight manual or type certificate of an aircraft operated under the aegis of the FAA (Unless it was an alert service bulletin issued in order to get information out quickly while an AD is being processed - it wasn't an alert service bulletin). For it to be legally binding they would have to get an airworthiness directive issued. They did not do this. Not to long ago one of the engine manufacturers tried this sort of tactic and got in a bit of trouble. Whether its a good idea to do aerobatics in a 2-32 being flown in the utility category is a different matter and one I don't have an opinion on seeing as how I've never flown one or worked on one.

You can get a Grob Twin Astir or Twin II for a reasonable amount of money but unless you can find a Twin II Acro which has had the rear fuselage strengthening modification you won't have a glider approved for inverted flight or slow rolls.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 11:43:13 PM UTC-8, Eurofighter wrote:
> The IS28B2 is well within your budget. It might suit your needs.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Eurofighter

one for sale on W&W for $24K, in Oregon.

[Eric Munk]

The Twin Astir is according to the FM approved for simple aerobatics only
(loops, stall turn, lazy 8, chandelle, spin).

t 20:44 23 January 2017, wrote:
>"Service Bulletin SA-003 prohibits aerobatics in Schweizer gliders
>overridi=
>ng the POH (answering the question about an SGS-2-32)."
>
>Actually, legally it doesn't. A service bulletin or note or advisory
about
>=
>an aircraft cannot override the approved flight manual or type
certificate
>=
>of an aircraft operated under the aegis of the FAA (Unless it was an
alert
>=
>service bulletin issued in order to get information out quickly while an
>AD=
> is being processed - it wasn't an alert service bulletin). For it to be
>le=
>gally binding they would have to get an airworthiness directive issued.
>The=
>y did not do this. Not to long ago one of the engine manufacturers tried
>th=
>is sort of tactic and got in a bit of trouble. Whether its a good idea to
>d=
>o aerobatics in a 2-32 being flown in the utility category is a different
>m=
>atter and one I don't have an opinion on seeing as how I've never flown
>one=
> or worked on one.
>
>You can get a Grob Twin Astir or Twin II for a reasonable amount of money
>b=
>ut unless you can find a Twin II Acro which has had the rear fuselage
>stren=
>gthening modification you won't have a glider approved for inverted
flight
>=
>or slow rolls.
>

[Tango Whisky]

Le mardi 24 janvier 2017 16:45:06 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écritÂ*:
> The Twin Astir is according to the FM approved for simple aerobatics only
> (loops, stall turn, lazy 8, chandelle, spin).

The Twin 1 is full aerobatics (but I don't know about flick rolls).

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 8:07:09 AM UTC-8, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le mardi 24 janvier 2017 16:45:06 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écritÂ*:
> > The Twin Astir is according to the FM approved for simple aerobatics only
> > (loops, stall turn, lazy 8, chandelle, spin).
>
> The Twin 1 is full aerobatics (but I don't know about flick rolls).

No, it's not. Simple aerobatics only: loop, stall turn, spin, chandelle.

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 26 janvier 2017 06:32:07 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 8:07:09 AM UTC-8, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > Le mardi 24 janvier 2017 16:45:06 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écritÂ*:
> > > The Twin Astir is according to the FM approved for simple aerobatics only
> > > (loops, stall turn, lazy 8, chandelle, spin).
> >
> > The Twin 1 is full aerobatics (but I don't know about flick rolls).
>
> No, it's not. Simple aerobatics only: loop, stall turn, spin, chandelle.

Sorry, my fault. The Twin II Acro is fully aerobatics, except snap rolls. The Twin I is simple aerobatics.

[Eric Munk]

At 10:23 26 January 2017, Tango Whisky wrote:
>Le jeudi 26 janvier 2017 06:32:07 UTC+1, a
=C3=A9crit=
>=C2=A0:
>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 8:07:09 AM UTC-8, Tango Whisky
wrote:
>> > Le mardi 24 janvier 2017 16:45:06 UTC+1, Eric Munk a
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>> > > The Twin Astir is according to the FM approved for simple
aerobatics
>=
>only
>> > > (loops, stall turn, lazy 8, chandelle, spin).
>> >=20
>> > The Twin 1 is full aerobatics (but I don't know about flick rolls).
>>=20
>> No, it's not. Simple aerobatics only: loop, stall turn, spin,
chandelle.
>
>Sorry, my fault. The Twin II Acro is fully aerobatics, except snap rolls.
>T=
>he Twin I is simple aerobatics.
>
Twin II Acro is only fully aerobatic if TM 315-66 has been carried out.