Aerobatic Two Seat Gliders?

There was a recent thread about inexpensive two seat gliders. I made me wonder how crazy I might be.

I'd like to buy a two seat glider that could be used for beginner to intermediate-ish aerobatics. Fun for me, perhaps someone might want to do some aerobatics for a flight review instead of an hour in a thermal. Etc.

Some options include:

L-23
L-13AC
Kr-03a
G-103 (Some)
SF-34
SZD 50-3
What else?

Way out of my price range: ASK-21. Way beyond my needs or desires: MDM-1 Fox (Though I've enjoyed it) and Perkoz.

I am in Germany at the moment. I will return to the USA in the not too distant future. Right now there is a Krosno for sale in Poland. There's a Puchacz for sale in Germany. The Krosno is much cheaper (12,500 Euro, plus open trailer) than the Puchacz (30,000 Euro plus open trailer). The Krosno is back on the market after a prospective buyer couldn't get financing.

People I trust have advised me to buy or run from both of these!

In some ways buying an existing glider in the USA is a better idea since all the issues associated with emigration are resolved - shipping, instruments, registration, etc.

Buing a glider in the UK would solve the instrument units issue. Something in Canada would even solve the shipping issue, but is hard for me to get to for a weekend visit.

There's an L-13AC on W&W at a price I think is too high. At least for my budget.

I realize an Export Certificate of Airworthiness is required. Ditto with deregistration with the local civil aviation authority, etc.

If I choose to import something, it has to arrive in the USA at a total cost less than or equal to what it's worth there or it makes little/no sense.

A practical question - how do you remove painted on registration markings?

Not really a rhetorical question - am I out of my mind? Looking for the collective wisdom/knowledge of the group...

Terry

PS the Dollar is about ten percent better against the Euro than a year ago.

Consider a Schweizer 2-32. I've done lots of loops, spins & slow rolls in them. Rugged as anything, very responsive, real terminal velocity limiting brakes, and not that expensive. Just don't tell Mom what you are doing . . .
ROY

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 12:48:16 AM UTC+3, Terry Pitts wrote:
There was a recent thread about inexpensive two seat gliders. I made me wonder how crazy I might be.

I'd like to buy a two seat glider that could be used for beginner to intermediate-ish aerobatics. Fun for me, perhaps someone might want to do some aerobatics for a flight review instead of an hour in a thermal. Etc.

Some options include:

L-23
L-13AC
Kr-03a
G-103 (Some)
SF-34
SZD 50-3
What else?

Way out of my price range: ASK-21. Way beyond my needs or desires: MDM-1 Fox (Though I've enjoyed it) and Perkoz.

I am in Germany at the moment. I will return to the USA in the not too distant future. Right now there is a Krosno for sale in Poland. There's a Puchacz for sale in Germany. The Krosno is much cheaper (12,500 Euro, plus open trailer) than the Puchacz (30,000 Euro plus open trailer). The Krosno is back on the market after a prospective buyer couldn't get financing.

People I trust have advised me to buy or run from both of these!

In some ways buying an existing glider in the USA is a better idea since all the issues associated with emigration are resolved - shipping, instruments, registration, etc.

Buing a glider in the UK would solve the instrument units issue. Something in Canada would even solve the shipping issue, but is hard for me to get to for a weekend visit.

There's an L-13AC on W&W at a price I think is too high. At least for my budget.

I realize an Export Certificate of Airworthiness is required. Ditto with deregistration with the local civil aviation authority, etc.

If I choose to import something, it has to arrive in the USA at a total cost less than or equal to what it's worth there or it makes little/no sense..

A practical question - how do you remove painted on registration markings?

Not really a rhetorical question - am I out of my mind? Looking for the collective wisdom/knowledge of the group...

Terry

PS the Dollar is about ten percent better against the Euro than a year ago.

DG500/505/1000/1001

Older ones are presumably not too expensive now. (There are also rather old K21s, since it's a 39 year old model!)

I'm just not sure that "cheap" and "aerobatic" belong in the same sentence!!!

If price is an issue, I wonder how you plan to stay current. Tows with my B4 are roughly 40 euro to 3500ft.

If you are set on being able to do aerobatics, why not look for a 21 or DG-1000 and try to pay the glider back using aerobatic rides?

My club offers these on our DGs and people happily pay 75 euros for a tow to 2500ft with some loops and chandelles.

I personally like the 21 over the DG, but the latter probably offers better value for money, due to the wider weight restrictions and increased glide performance.

Have flown 21,DG and Fox. Own a B4.

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 10:03:45 AM UTC+1, wrote:
If price is an issue, I wonder how you plan to stay current. Tows with my B4 are roughly 40 euro to 3500ft.

I average about 100 glider flights a year. I stay current. In the winter, too. It's not about currency. It's not even about what I can afford. It's about how much I'm willing to spend on something that's frivolously for fun. (I also do power aerobatics at 249 Euro/hour.)

If you are set on being able to do aerobatics, why not look for a 21 or DG-1000 and try to pay the glider back using aerobatic rides?

$100,000 for a DG-1000 is over $1,000/month at 5% for 10 years. I'm not going to "pay that back using aerobatic rides."

There is currently a 1983 K-21 listed with an asking price of 69,000 Euro ($77,000). It will likely sell for close to that. My budget is about $35,000..


My club offers these on our DGs and people happily pay 75 euros for a tow to 2500ft with some loops and chandelles.

Why only to 2,500 ft? That only gives 1,000' for aerobatics. I've seen people pay $200 for a tow to 4,000' for an aerobatic ride.

Have flown 21,DG and Fox. Own a B4.

Same as above except I've only flown a B4 rather than owning one. Rather like the B4 actually.

I am asking for help in finding an aerobatic capable two seat glider that I can use for an occasional contest at my basic level and give some training.. An SGS 2-32 might do loops and rolls, but likely not much else for sportsman aerobatics. Picking on my budget or suggesting gliders that I've clearly indicated are outside my price range by a factor of 2 or 3 does not help.

On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 12:45:17 PM UTC+3, Terry Pitts wrote:
On Sunday, January 22, 2017 at 10:03:45 AM UTC+1, wrote:
If price is an issue, I wonder how you plan to stay current. Tows with my B4 are roughly 40 euro to 3500ft.

I average about 100 glider flights a year. I stay current. In the winter, too. It's not about currency. It's not even about what I can afford. It's about how much I'm willing to spend on something that's frivolously for fun.. (I also do power aerobatics at 249 Euro/hour.)

If you are set on being able to do aerobatics, why not look for a 21 or DG-1000 and try to pay the glider back using aerobatic rides?

$100,000 for a DG-1000 is over $1,000/month at 5% for 10 years. I'm not going to "pay that back using aerobatic rides."

About $1060, yes. If, as you say (and I agree), people will pay $200 for an aerobatic ride, then that's only five flights a month. Seven if it's $50 for a tow and $150 for the glider.

Capacity-wise, you could do that in a day.

Seems like it's a matter of marketing, not finance.

For 35k I can't help you.

Single seaters like the B4 or Salto are within reach, with a good trailer and some spare change for instruments and maintainance.

2 seats for 35k, that's about a Grob Twin 1 which does aerobatics reasonably well.

On 1/22/2017 4:45 AM, Terry Pitts wrote:
An SGS 2-32 might do loops and rolls, but likely not much else for sportsman aerobatics.

Well then you can also eliminate the Krosno, which (at least in my copy
of the flight manual) doesn't even include rolls in its approved
maneuvers list. As a basic trainer and a glider rides bird I LOVE the
Krosno, and have more time in it than any other glider. But I have
trouble seeing it as an aero trainer.

I recall doing aerobatics in a Twin Astir, FWIW.

On 1/22/2017 2:08 PM, Tango Whisky wrote:
2 seats for 35k, that's about a Grob Twin 1 which does aerobatics reasonably well.

--
Dan, 5J