two seat motor gliders, feedback.

Any Ximango or Diamond pilots out there who would share their experiences.
Maybe even a Europa . I am looking for 100 kt cruise , 30+/1 L/D
motor off and good baggage capacity.
Any offers

John firth

an old , no longer bold, ex contest pilot.

Hi Jphn,

The Ximango just about meets your requirements and
is probably the best soaring machine amongst the TMG's.
Its main handling drawback is that the huge fin and
rudder and tailwheel configuration mean it is very
limited in its ability to cope with cross-winds.

The Super Dimona/Katana Extreme is a lot easier to
fly, but probably only about 27:1 and that drops off
quite rapidly with increasing speed. Higher stalling
speed too, so not so good in small thermals.

Seem to recollect that the Ximango won out on luggage
space too.

My view is, the Dimona is an aeroplane you can sometimes
soar, the Ximango is a low performance sailplane that
can be used as an aeroplane as well.

At 23:00 27 February 2005, John Firth wrote:

Any Ximango or Diamond pilots out there who would
share their experiences.
Maybe even a Europa . I am looking for 100 kt cruise
, 30+/1 L/D
motor off and good baggage capacity.
Any offers

John firth

an old , no longer bold, ex contest pilot.

Hi,

Chris Rollings wrote:

My view is, the Dimona is an aeroplane you can sometimes
soar, ...

That hits it quite well. It's a nice motor plane with L/D of a Ka8 but
thermalling is not much fun because the stick forces are high. It is also
quite heavy for a glider - with 2 people in it you almost always fly at
MTOW.

Greetings, Erik.

If a single place powered sailplane fits your needs, the Carat
motorglider has a reliable 4-stroke, 100 kt cruise, and 35+/1 L/D with
good baggage capacity. It is built around the Discus wing, tail, and
control linkages - so the handling is light and perfectly balanced like
the Discus with a light load of water. You can check it out at
http://www.ams-flight.si/ and also join the Carat discussion group
through a link at the bottom of the AMS Carat page.

Jamey Jacobs
Carat N415PS

I had a Super Dimona (now known as Katana Xtreme) from 1995-1998 and
found it much better than some of the disparaging remarks here would
indicate. Soon after I got it, another "old, but no longer bold, ex
contest pilot" (as John's signature describes him) who was thinking of
getting a similar ship went up with me out of Minden to see if the
thing really could do any soaring. What, with the prop (even feathered)
and the gear hanging down, he was worried it was really a power plane
that only pretended to soar. When we successfully did a 40 nm final
glide from Hilton Ranch into Minden, he told me "You've just cost me a
lot of money." He ended up buying a Grob 109B while continuing to fly
his 15 meter ship as well -- even setting a speed record in it. So
these draggy motor gliders can appeal to even some of the best among
us.

Yes, all that drag means you can't set records or even do most 300 km
flights without using the engine a little here and there. But (at least
out of Minden or Tonopah) if you're willing to use the engine 5-10
minutes per hour, you can do many x-country tasks that even an open
class ship couldn't. Admittedly, that's not "pure soaring", but it's
still a lot of fun -- at least for some of us. Hopefully soaring has
room for us too. In areas with less powerful thermals, the ability to
turn on the engine to get through sink (or non-lift) would seem even
more important.

On the Super Dimona vs. the Super Ximango: When I bought mine the
Ximango didn't have good representation in the US so getting service
was a concern of mine. Also, in calling around to owners of both types,
I got the impression that the Ximango had poorer climb performance --
which was a big issue for me since I fly out of high altitude airports
and cross 10k foot passes. The Super Dimona lived up to its specs and
did fine for me at the higher altitudes. The difference in climb
performance is less of an issue now that both have 914 (turbocharged)
options, but if you're looking at a used 912 (normally aspirated) ship,
I'd check into that. If memory serves me, the published climb rates
were not that different, but the actual performance (at least among the
people I talked to) was different.

One last point, if you want to hangar it, you should probably buy a
Ximango. The wing folding is truly one-person, five minutes, whereas
I've heard the Super Dimona's "folding wing" option is not much better
than taking them off. (Mine didn't have that option.)

Martin

wrote:

Yes, all that drag means you can't set records or even do most 300 km
flights without using the engine a little here and there. But (at least
out of Minden or Tonopah) if you're willing to use the engine 5-10
minutes per hour, you can do many x-country tasks that even an open
class ship couldn't. Admittedly, that's not "pure soaring", but it's
still a lot of fun -- at least for some of us. Hopefully soaring has
room for us too. In areas with less powerful thermals, the ability to
turn on the engine to get through sink (or non-lift) would seem even
more important.

They have other advantages:

- getting to wave upwind (especially 30 or more miles away) is easier
than a self-launching sailplane (SLS) due to the Dimona 100 knot vs 70
cruise of the SLS (think about the ground speeds into a 40 knot wind)
- idling the engine in the wave keeps the pilots warm and canopy frost free
- extended unassisted safaris (no crew or trailer) are easier because
there is actually baggage space, and you can cruise home easily if the
soaring is bad during the trip

As the owner of an SLS, I envy these traits of the "touring" motorglider.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric's response added some good points and also made me think of one
other issue. When I had my Super Dimona, I tagged along on one week of
High Country Soaring's Great Basin Safari. While it was great, I
decided that I would do future safaris only with other touring motor
gliders. Why? When bad wx hit, the pure gliders and SLS's could trailer
their way out, while I could not. But, on the positive side, when bad
wx was forecast, I could change my destination by 500 nm or more in one
day, while the ground crews couldn't have kept up with that pace, esp
since my 500 nm straight line distance could easily be 750 using roads.

Martin