opinions on a K13

[Scott Macleman]

I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.

We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.

we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
will need to sell our K13.

I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several
drawbacks.

mainly -

asking for a grant from the university.
selling the k13
not having a trailer with it.

Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.

Thanks,

[Tim Mara]

Keep the K-13!
it's one of the best and sweetest trainers ever made!
not just MHO but shared by 100's all over the world! For a trainer and just
plain nice ole ship to fly everything else is just at best a giant leap
sideways! :o)
tim

"Scott Macleman" > wrote in message
...
> I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
> compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.
>
> We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.
>
> we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
> will need to sell our K13.
>
> I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
> been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several
> drawbacks.
>
> mainly -
>
> asking for a grant from the university.
> selling the k13
> not having a trailer with it.
>
> Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.
>
> Thanks,

[nowhere]

If you REALLY NEED the extra L/D for flying farther afield that MIGHT
be a slight reason to consider the Acro. Other than that replacing an
ASK13 with a trailerless Acro would probably be a bad move. Actually,
with no trailer available you would have to be even more conservative
and stay closer to the field with the Acro than the ASK13. The Acro
also hasn't been given the "plastic pig" nickname for nothing. Heavy
to fly, heavy to rig and, currently, not even aerobatic thank's to an
A.D.

[Marc Ramsey]

Scott Macleman wrote:

> I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
> compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.
>
> We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.
>
> we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
> will need to sell our K13.
>
> I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
> been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several
> drawbacks.

I have to agree with those who think the ASK-13 is just about the nicest
trainer around. Especially, if you have a hangar to keep it in. I'll
bet you'll get more fun for the money by keeping the ASK-13, and getting
a grant from the university for a nice low cost single place ship, like
a Libelle or Standard Cirrus...

Marc

[Mark Davies]

Dear Nowhere!!

If you actually knew anything at all about this you
would know that the nickname of plastic pig was actually
regarding the earlier Twin Astir and NOT the completly
different Twin II Acro on which thousands of people
have learnt to fly. And as for the AD banning aerobatics,
again if you knew what you were talking about you would
know that the Twin II Acro limitations have been lifted
to allow it to do the same aerobatics (including spinning)
as a K13, only rolling and inverted is still currently
unallowed without modification and this type of flying
is definitaly only for those who have recieved training
in this fine art.
An Acro can be taken out in stronger winds (with care)
than you would do with a K13 and the maintenance will
be a lot less on a GRP 2 seater than an ageing K13.
The K13 is a nice glider, I learnt to fly on one but
times move on, I am sure the old pilots flying T21's
and T31's reacted the same when the K13 came along.
Let go of your inhibitions and move with the times
or else you may stay nowhere for ever!.



At 04:36 27 April 2004, Nowhere wrote:
>If you REALLY NEED the extra L/D for flying farther
>afield that MIGHT
>be a slight reason to consider the Acro. Other than
>that replacing an
>ASK13 with a trailerless Acro would probably be a bad
>move. Actually,
>with no trailer available you would have to be even
>more conservative
>and stay closer to the field with the Acro than the
>ASK13. The Acro
>also hasn't been given the 'plastic pig' nickname for
>nothing. Heavy
>to fly, heavy to rig and, currently, not even aerobatic
>thank's to an
>A.D.
>
mark

[Bert Willing]

I agree with Mark. Although the k13 is a very good trainer, a Twin is
definitively a step upward which still allows a very good ab initio
training. Any concrete advice depends on the exact deal, but a Twin without
trailer (which can be bought second hand, too) is, hm, sub-optimal.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mark Davies" > a écrit dans le
message de ...
> Dear Nowhere!!
>
> If you actually knew anything at all about this you
> would know that the nickname of plastic pig was actually
> regarding the earlier Twin Astir and NOT the completly
> different Twin II Acro on which thousands of people
> have learnt to fly. And as for the AD banning aerobatics,
> again if you knew what you were talking about you would
> know that the Twin II Acro limitations have been lifted
> to allow it to do the same aerobatics (including spinning)
> as a K13, only rolling and inverted is still currently
> unallowed without modification and this type of flying
> is definitaly only for those who have recieved training
> in this fine art.
> An Acro can be taken out in stronger winds (with care)
> than you would do with a K13 and the maintenance will
> be a lot less on a GRP 2 seater than an ageing K13.
> The K13 is a nice glider, I learnt to fly on one but
> times move on, I am sure the old pilots flying T21's
> and T31's reacted the same when the K13 came along.
> Let go of your inhibitions and move with the times
> or else you may stay nowhere for ever!.
>
>
>
> At 04:36 27 April 2004, Nowhere wrote:
> >If you REALLY NEED the extra L/D for flying farther
> >afield that MIGHT
> >be a slight reason to consider the Acro. Other than
> >that replacing an
> >ASK13 with a trailerless Acro would probably be a bad
> >move. Actually,
> >with no trailer available you would have to be even
> >more conservative
> >and stay closer to the field with the Acro than the
> >ASK13. The Acro
> >also hasn't been given the 'plastic pig' nickname for
> >nothing. Heavy
> >to fly, heavy to rig and, currently, not even aerobatic
> >thank's to an
> >A.D.
> >
> mark
>
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

Don't even think of selling the K13. For a site such as Syerston a K13 is
probably the best buy regardless of price.

The basic training fleet at Lasham is entirely K13s, they have no intention
of changing. The same is true at Nympsfield, when they broke a K13 two or
three years ago they bought another one.

I am sure that Tim Mara is correct.

If you have some money, look for a good K8 or K6cr. Don't be seduced by a
white finish and a T tail. If you want to know why e-mail me.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Scott Macleman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
> compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey I enjoy it.
>
> We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.
>
> we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
> will need to sell our K13.
>
> I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
> been offered for the acro is not massively great and there are several
> drawbacks.
>
> mainly -
>
> asking for a grant from the university.
> selling the k13
> not having a trailer with it.
>
> Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.
>
> Thanks.
>

[Robert Richards]

Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a lot of embarrassment and caused
me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could make it clear that you
are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student
union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight, the coments below
are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt 15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:>I am a member of the council for my University gliding
>club - fairly new >compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey
>i enjoy it.>>We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable
>trailer.>>we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in
>order to buy it we >will need to sell our K13.>>I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because
>the deal we have >been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and
>there are several >drawbacks.>>mainly ->> asking for a grant from the university.> selling the k13> not having a trailer with it.>>Just wondering what some of the more experienced people
>think.>>Thanks,>

[Vaughn]

"Robert Richards" > wrote in message
...
> Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
> with the rest of the committee before making statements
> in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
> but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
> committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
> as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a lot
of embarrassment and caused
> me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
> time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could make
it clear that you
> are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
> that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on here
tod know anything about getting a grant from our student
> union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight, the
coments below
> are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.

Well Robert; I don't know about your relative flying skills or club
management skills, but Scott certainly has the edge on coherency.

Vaughn

[mrw]

Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!



"Robert Richards" > wrote in
message ...
> Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
> with the rest of the committee before making statements
> in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
> but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
> committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
> as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a
lot of embarrassment and caused
> me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
> time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could
make it clear that you
> are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
> that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on
here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student
> union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight,
the coments below
> are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt
15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:>I am a member of the council for
my University gliding
> >club - fairly new >compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey
> >i enjoy it.>>We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable
> >trailer.>>we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in
> >order to buy it we >will need to sell our K13.>>I was wondering whether
it would be worth it - because
> >the deal we have >been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and
> >there are several >drawbacks.>>mainly ->> asking for a grant from the
university.> selling the k13> not having a trailer with it.>>Just wondering
what some of the more experienced people
> >think.>>Thanks,>
>
>
>

[Robert Richards]

At 23:30 27 April 2004, Vaughn wrote:> Well Robert; I don't know about your relative
>flying skills or club>management skills, but Scott certainly has the edge
>on coherency.>My posting got munged for some reason. Not a lot I
can do about that!

[Robert Richards]

At 00:06 28 April 2004, Mrw wrote:>Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours
>Robert?>Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!Not at all. Of course someone is entitled to ask peoples
opinions. But it isn't helpful when they slag off (albeit
unintentionally) someone who has put in some considerable
effort for us.You can see why that is unhelpful.That's all I have to say on the subject.

[elZee]

"Scott Macleman" > wrote in message
...
> Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.

Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee

[Graeme Cant]

mrw wrote:
> Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert?
> Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!

It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however. Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer. The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies from ras will be
quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot (you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant

> "Robert Richards" > wrote in
> message ...
>
>>Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
>>with the rest of the committee before making statements
>>in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
>>but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
>>committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
>>as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've
caused a
>
> lot of embarrassment and caused
>
>>me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
>>time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could
>
> make it clear that you
>
>>are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
>>that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on
>
> here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student
>
>>union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record
straight,
>
> the coments below
>
>>are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt
>
> 15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:>I am a member of the
council for
> my University gliding
>
>>>club - fairly new >compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey
>>>i enjoy it.>>We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable
>>>trailer.>>we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in
>>>order to buy it we >will need to sell our K13.>>I was wondering whether
>
> it would be worth it - because
>
>>>the deal we have >been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and
>>>there are several >drawbacks.>>mainly ->> asking for a grant from the
>
> university.> selling the k13> not having a trailer with it.>>Just
wondering
> what some of the more experienced people
>
>>>think.>>Thanks,>

[Bert Willing]

As an instructor having trained ab initio students in Ka7, Ka13 and Janus,
your remark seems completely unfounded to me. Somebody starting his training
on glass learns the same things in the same laps of time as if he would
start on wood & fabric.
And maintainance on a glass ship is a lot easier than wood & fabric.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"elZee" > a écrit dans le message de
...
>
> "Scott Macleman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.
>
> Keep the ASK13.
>
> I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into
a lot
> more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for
> training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance
of a
> familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance
costs
> will be higher too I'm sure!
>
> Keep the ASK13
>
> HTH
>
> elZee
>
>

[Don Johnstone]

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.
To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob)
If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.
In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote:
>mrw wrote:
> > Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than
>>yours Robert?
> > Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!
>
>It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real
>problem is something
>like this:
>
>Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds
>available from the
>Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops
>to jump through and
>have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric
>K13 does not
>qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting
>the purchase of
> a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might
>well qualify.
>
>In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant
>application and
>successfully sounded out his mates who were operators
>on the Union
>Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.
>
>Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents
>on the Union
>(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on
>holidays to sunny
>places as delegates attending conferences on student
>poverty and
>homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however.
> Scott has
>successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.
>
>Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but
>Robert can't kick
>contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer.
>The majority of
>respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick
>with the K13 and
>stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without
>a trailer.
>
>Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for
>nothing. When the
> Council debates the GC's application, all the replies
>from ras will be
>quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write
>it up as an
>assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!
>
>Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot
>(you won't be doing
>much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily
>checks for years).
>
>Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep
>the K13.
>Best of luck with your next project.
>
>Graeme Cant
>
> > 'Robert Richards' wrote in
> > message ...
> >
> >>Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff
>>>out
> >>with the rest of the committee before making statements
> >>in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
> >>but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on
>>>the
> >>committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
> >>as being the position of the committee as a whole.As
>>>it is you've
>caused a
> >
> > lot of embarrassment and caused
> >
> >>me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
> >>time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps
>>>in future you could
> >
> > make it clear that you
> >
> >>are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
> >>that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth
>>>you expect anyone on
> >
> > here tod know anything about getting a grant from
>>our student
> >
> >>union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to
>>>set the record
>straight,
> >
> > the coments below
> >
> >>are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres.
>>>NUGCAt
> >
> > 15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:>I am a
>>>member of the
>council for
> > my University gliding
> >
> >>>club - fairly new >compared to most of the people in
>>>>>this forum, but hey
> >>>i enjoy it.>>We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly)
>>>>>>serviceable
> >>>trailer.>>we have been offered an Acro with no trailer,
>>>>>>and in
> >>>order to buy it we >will need to sell our K13.>>I was wondering whether
> >
> > it would be worth it - because
> >
> >>>the deal we have >been offered for the acro is not
>>>>>massivly great. and
> >>>there are several >drawbacks.>>mainly ->> asking for a grant from the
> >
> > university.> selling the k13> not having a trailer
>>>>with it.>>Just
>wondering
> > what some of the more experienced people
> >
> >>>think.>>Thanks,>
>
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

It may well be that in the rather specialised world of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils aged under 21. Of
the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many went on to get their
Silver 'C'?

However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a Grob, in fact I think
they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless, Lasham still continue to
use the K13 as their main training glider, they have no plans to replace
them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have 1 Duo-Discus, 1
ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit on a DG1000, this
is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing the order to a turbo
DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and the K13s quite long
enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from the maintenance point
of view.

Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach them to soar, fly
cross-country and win competitions at world level so they must be doing
something right!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Don Johnstone" > wrote in
> message ...
>
> The original post was asking for an opinion on the
> relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
> someone with experience. I would have thought that
> was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
> on ras is perhaps open to debate.
>
> To answer the original question, as always it depends.
> I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
> launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
> under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
> of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
> flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
> gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
> to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
> have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
> in a Grob).
>
> If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
> go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
> you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
> option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
> them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
> single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
> If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
> then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
> recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
> almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
> bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
> a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
> the Grob is the answer.
>
> In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
> a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
> but for overall robustness, suitability for training
> for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
> xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
> the best option even if you have to find a trailer
> for it.
>

[Ben Flewett]

I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Having said that… If all you want to do is bash the
circuit – stick with the 13. No better than glass
once you are downwind.



At 05:42 28 April 2004, Elzee wrote:
>
>'Scott Macleman' wrote in message
...
>> Just wondering what some of the more experienced people
>>think.
>
>Keep the ASK13.
>
>I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are
>going to get you into a lot
>more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more
>forgiving platform for
>training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer
>and maintenance of a
>familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of
>an FRP ship. Insurance costs
>will be higher too I'm sure!
>
>Keep the ASK13
>
>HTH
>
>elZee
>
>
>

[mrw]

I certainly hope either Scott or the prickly Robert will post as to how
this is resolved. This is better than any soap opera on the tee vee :)

RAS WANTS TO KNOW!!!!!!!!



"Scott Macleman" > wrote in message
...
> I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
> compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.
>
> We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.
>
> we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
> will need to sell our K13.
>
> I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
> been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several
> drawbacks.
>
> mainly -
>
> asking for a grant from the university.
> selling the k13
> not having a trailer with it.
>
> Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.
>
> Thanks,

[Don Johnstone]

Sorry Bill, the ATC world is not specialised, it just
teaches people the basics, enough to fly solo, that
is all it sets out to do and it achieves it with the
Grob Acro. My point was that it is no more difficult
to be taught to fly in an Acro than it is in a K13.
The Acro is nearer to most GRP single seaters which
your soaring members will fly.

One question, as an instructor you are given the choice
between sitting for 8 hours in the back seat of a K13
or a Grob Acro. Which would you choose, for me there
is no contest, sitting for any length of time in the
K13 would require a large spend on an osteopath.

The question was not about a fleet but which was more
suitable for a clubs only 2 seater. For my money, and
I have flown most the Acro is the most suitable.

I learned to fly in a T31 and instucted in them for
many years, I would not recommend them for training
today.

As an aside the best and most effective 'glider' I
have flown for teaching is without doubt the Venture,
so I am not against wood or metal and fabric per se.
Of course the CAA rules do not allow their use in that
way in the wider world.

DJ 401

At 14:48 28 April 2004, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote:
>It may well be that in the rather specialised world
>of the Air Training
>Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils
>aged under 21. Of
>the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many
>went on to get their
>Silver 'C'?
>
>However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a
>Grob, in fact I think
>they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless,
>Lasham still continue to
>use the K13 as their main training glider, they have
>no plans to replace
>them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have
>1 Duo-Discus, 1
>ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit
>on a DG1000, this
>is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing
>the order to a turbo
>DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and
>the K13s quite long
>enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from
>the maintenance point
>of view.
>
>Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach
>them to soar, fly
>cross-country and win competitions at world level so
>they must be doing
>something right!
>
>W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>Remove 'ic' to reply.
>
>>
>> 'Don Johnstone' wrote in
>> message ...
>>
>> The original post was asking for an opinion on the
>> relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
>> someone with experience. I would have thought that
>> was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
>> on ras is perhaps open to debate.
>>
>> To answer the original question, as always it depends.
>> I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
>> launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
>> under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
>> of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
>> flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
>> gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
>> to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust.
>> (I
>> have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
>> in a Grob).
>>
>> If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
>> go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
>> you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
>> option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
>> them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
>> single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
>> If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
>> then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
>> recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
>> almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
>> bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
>> a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
>> the Grob is the answer.
>>
>> In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13
>>was
>> a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
>> but for overall robustness, suitability for training
>> for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
>> xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob
>>is
>> the best option even if you have to find a trailer
>> for it.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Mike Lindsay]

In article >, Ben Flewett
> writes
>I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
> A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
>than a fabric over metal ship.
>
>I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
>Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
>event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.
>
Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?
--
Mike Lindsay

[Bruce Greeff]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> The original post was asking for an opinion on the
> relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
> someone with experience. I would have thought that
> was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
> on ras is perhaps open to debate.
> To answer the original question, as always it depends.
> I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
> launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
> under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
> of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
> flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
> gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
> to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
> have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
> in a Grob)
> If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
> go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
> you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper
> option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
> them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
> single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
> If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
> then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
> recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
> almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
> bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
> a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
> the Grob is the answer.
> In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
> a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
> but for overall robustness, suitability for training
> for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
> xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
> the best option even if you have to find a trailer
> for it.
>
> At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote:
>
>>mrw wrote:
>>
>>>Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than
>>>yours Robert?
>>>Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!
>>
>>It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real
>>problem is something
>>like this:
>>
>>Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds
>>available from the
>>Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops
>>to jump through and
>>have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric
>>K13 does not
>>qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting
>>the purchase of
>> a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might
>>well qualify.
>>
>>In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant
>>application and
>>successfully sounded out his mates who were operators
>>on the Union
>>Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.
>>
>>Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents
>>on the Union
>>(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on
>>holidays to sunny
>>places as delegates attending conferences on student
>>poverty and
>>homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however.
>>Scott has
>>successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.
>>
>>Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but
>>Robert can't kick
>>contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer.
>>The majority of
>>respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick
>>with the K13 and
>>stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without
>>a trailer.
>>
>>Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for
>>nothing. When the
>> Council debates the GC's application, all the replies
>
>>from ras will be
>
>>quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write
>>it up as an
>>assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!
>>
>>Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot
>>(you won't be doing
>>much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily
>>checks for years).
>>
>>Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep
>>the K13.
>>Best of luck with your next project.
>>
>>Graeme Cant
>>
>>
>>>'Robert Richards' wrote in
>>>message ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff
>>>>out
>>>>with the rest of the committee before making statements
>>>>in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
>>>>but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on
>>>>the
>>>>committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
>>>>as being the position of the committee as a whole.As
>>>>it is you've
>>
>>caused a
>>
>>>lot of embarrassment and caused
>>>
>>>
>>>>me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
>>>>time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps
>>>>in future you could
>>>
>>>make it clear that you
>>>
>>>
>>>>are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
>>>>that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth
>>>>you expect anyone on
>>>
>>>here tod know anything about getting a grant from
>>>our student
>>>
>>>
>>>>union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to
>>>>set the record
>>
>>straight,
>>
>>>the coments below
>>>
>>>
>>>>are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres.
>>>>NUGCAt
>>>
>>>15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:>I am a
>>>
>>>>member of the
>>
>>council for
>>
>>>my University gliding
>>>
>>>
>>>>>club - fairly new >compared to most of the people in
>>>>>
>>>>>>this forum, but hey
>>>>>
>>>>>i enjoy it.>>We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly)
>>>>>
>>>>>>>serviceable
>>>>>
>>>>>trailer.>>we have been offered an Acro with no trailer,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>and in
>>>>>
>>>>>order to buy it we >will need to sell our K13.>>I was wondering whether
>>>
>>>it would be worth it - because
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the deal we have >been offered for the acro is not
>>>>>
>>>>>>massivly great. and
>>>>>
>>>>>there are several >drawbacks.>>mainly ->> asking for a grant from the
>>>
>>>university.> selling the k13> not having a trailer
>>>
>>>>>with it.>>Just
>>
>>wondering
>>
>>>what some of the more experienced people
>>>
>>>
>>>>>think.>>Thanks,>
>>
>>
>
>
>
I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir (much
maligned earlier version)

Some comments -
In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to man
handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals
better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on marginal days.
The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir because of
the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally prefer the
Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is more
comfortable.
The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like, but
after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you take
the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members
actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it) the
K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob.
Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out of
gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to
recover her from a field.
On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob.

For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on cross
country. Not bad for a "plastic pig".

If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both is
great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin would
be best.

[nowhere]

Mark Davies > wrote in message
> If you actually knew anything at all about this you
> would know that the nickname of plastic pig was actually
> regarding the earlier Twin Astir and NOT the completly
> different Twin II Acro on which thousands of people
> have learnt to fly.

Well actually my club has BOTH a Twin II Acro and a Twin Astir and,
with many hours in both, I find the Astir to be much nicer to fly! The
ailerons on the Astir, though just as heavy as the Acro, actually ROLL
the aircraft and the spoilers don't snatch the way they do on the
Acro. Admittedly the back seat on the Acro is a huge improvement on
the Astir.

And as for the AD banning aerobatics,
> again if you knew what you were talking about you would
> know that the Twin II Acro limitations have been lifted
> to allow it to do the same aerobatics (including spinning)
> as a K13, only rolling and inverted is still currently
> unallowed without modification and this type of flying
> is definitaly only for those who have recieved training
> in this fine art.

You're right about the A.D of course. It has been modified to allow
these manouvers. The more advanced aerobatics it was certified for are
still off limits which means that while we paid for a fully aerobatic
trainer we no longer can use it as such. The point I was trying (and
failing) to make was that, at the moment, the Acro wouldn't provide
them any more functionality than a K13 in this area. Oddly enough, in
speaking up for the Acro you made this point much clearer thans I did.
As for spinning, good luck. the Acro's very docile in the stall but
difficult to get a good spin out of.

> Let go of your inhibitions and move with the times
> or else you may stay nowhere for ever!.

Actually I own a glass single seater and I feel the best two seater
I've ever flown is the Duo Discus so I'm hardly mired in the past. I
just don't like the Acro that much and don't see how this deal would
be of any benefit to this club.

[Tim Mara]

I think what many have overlooked is that even today with the K-13 still
increasing in value (no club that I know wants to give one up!) it is still
a great trainer fully capable of taking a student from first flight to early
X/C (no one says you have to see how quick you get it over with!), an
enjoyable Sunday afternoon flyer, and safe.....it's also not yet so
expensive we have to restrict who can fly it or raise the dues or rental
fees to own it....sure a Grob is nice enough and feels more like an old
Buick than a sports car, the K-13 is almost like the family wagon that did
take us all on vacations and still will....the K13 will fly slower and stay
up when the rest of the fleet is on the ground..
Most pilots will eventually own their own single seaters anyway (at least in
the USA) and progress beyond the 2 seat trainer, so if they spend less on
more K13's the logic is they will have better access to club members and
more members....makes sense to me at least....
regardless....go fly!
tim


> I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir
(much
> maligned earlier version)
>
> Some comments -
> In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to
man
> handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals
> better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on
marginal days.
> The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir
because of
> the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally
prefer the
> Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is
more
> comfortable.
> The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like,
but
> after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you
take
> the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members
> actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it)
the
> K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob.
> Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out
of
> gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to
> recover her from a field.
> On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob.
>
> For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on
cross
> country. Not bad for a "plastic pig".
>
> If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both
is
> great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin
would
> be best.

[Michel Talon]

Mike Lindsay > wrote:
> In article >, Ben Flewett
> > writes
>>I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
>> A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
>>than a fabric over metal ship.
>>
>>I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
>>Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
>>event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.
>>
> Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to
> impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON

[Mark Stevens]

The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
>Mike Lindsay wrote:
>> In article , Ben Flewett
>> writes
>>>I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
>>> A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
>>>than a fabric over metal ship.
>>>
>>>I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
>>>Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
>>>event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.
>>>
>> Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
>>it must be next to
>> impossible to do spin training in the glass job?
>
>An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
>assure you there is
>no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
>up quite fast,
>and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
>possible.
>But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
>It demonstrates
>spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
>contrarily to what
>has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
>people have
>generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
>or Twin Astirs
>(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
>the K13 allows
>to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
>gilders cannot?
>Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
>lightest wind, you
>will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
>you can still go
>against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.
>
>
>--
>
>Michel TALON
>
>

[Mark Stevens]

The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
>Mike Lindsay wrote:
>> In article , Ben Flewett
>> writes
>>>I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
>>> A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
>>>than a fabric over metal ship.
>>>
>>>I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
>>>Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
>>>event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.
>>>
>> Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
>>it must be next to
>> impossible to do spin training in the glass job?
>
>An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
>assure you there is
>no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
>up quite fast,
>and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
>possible.
>But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
>It demonstrates
>spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
>contrarily to what
>has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
>people have
>generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
>or Twin Astirs
>(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
>the K13 allows
>to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
>gilders cannot?
>Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
>lightest wind, you
>will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
>you can still go
>against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.
>
>
>--
>
>Michel TALON
>
>

[Chris Marren]

At 10:06 29 April 2004, Mark Stevens wrote:
>The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
>close to the rear CofG ..
>
>From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
>too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
>tough as an airframe..
>
>Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
>department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
>be hard work to soar in weak conditions..
>
>My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
>Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
>...
>
>Mark
>
>
>At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
>>Mike Lindsay wrote:
>>> In article , Ben Flewett
>>> writes
>>>>I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
>>>> A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
>>>>than a fabric over metal ship.
>>>>
>>>>I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
>>>>Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
>>>>event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.
>>>>
>>> Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
>>>it must be next to
>>> impossible to do spin training in the glass job?
>>
>>An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
>>assure you there is
>>no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
>>up quite fast,
>>and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
>>possible.
>>But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
>>It demonstrates
>>spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
>>contrarily to what
>>has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
>>people have
>>generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
>>or Twin Astirs
>>(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
>>the K13 allows
>>to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
>>gilders cannot?
>>Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
>>lightest wind, you
>>will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
>>you can still go
>>against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>Michel TALON
>>
>>
>
>
>
>At my club we still retain a K-13 for spin training
>as our K-21's are almost impossible to spin. We checked
with the BGA some time ago and they confirmed that
it is a requirement to undergo full spin training prior
to solo. We also explored the possibility of using
the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of
our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification,
manuals etc. However we're getting a DG-1000 and so
we will then sell the K-13. It will be sad to see it
go; we've crunched it around since 1968 and it's still
going strong. Many of our instructors still prefer
to instruct in it. Provided you do in house maintainance
on the cheap with club members then your costs are
lower. One thing we are finding is the size of your
average pilot has grown since 1968 and 40% don't fit
in it. We operate alongside Vikings (Grob Acro) and
they are a fine trainer although the undercarriage
is not as strong as either the K-13 or K-21.

[Stefan]

Chris Marren wrote:

> We also explored the possibility of using
> the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of
> our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification,
> manuals etc.

In Switzerland, it's certificated, and there is a weight calculation
table. Try to ask AS directly for it and refer to Switzerland.

BTW: It spins beautifully with the proper tail weight.

Stefan

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

When London Sailplanes were still the Schleicher agents they imported at
least one K21 fitted with the tail weight kit, I flew it with the kit.
They also converted one of their machines, EDW, the one which was sold to
University College London and later went to Halton, where I believe it is
now.

You could ask the people at Halton how they find it, or go there to try it
yourself.

I believe that Caracole Soaring in California use K21s with the tail weight
kit for spin training.

Both Dunstable and the Midland Club, Long Mynd went to a K21 fleet for
training, but retain a K13 used for spin training.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Chris Marren" >
> wrote in message ...
>
> At my club we still retain a K-13 for spin training
> as our K-21's are almost impossible to spin. We checked
> with the BGA some time ago and they confirmed that
> it is a requirement to undergo full spin training prior
> to solo.
>
> We also explored the possibility of using
> the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of
> our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification,
> manuals etc.
>
> However we're getting a DG-1000 and so
> we will then sell the K-13. It will be sad to see it
> go; we've crunched it around since 1968 and it's still
> going strong. Many of our instructors still prefer
> to instruct in it. Provided you do in house maintenance
> on the cheap with club members then your costs are
> lower. One thing we are finding is the size of your
> average pilot has grown since 1968 and 40% don't fit
> in it. We operate alongside Vikings (Grob Acro) and
> they are a fine trainer although the undercarriage
> is not as strong as either the K-13 or K-21.
>

[Jean]

> However, and contrarily to what
> has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
> generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
> (at least those who were rich enough).

Well, not generally - A number of large and "rich" french clubs are keeping
their K13's and btw their market value is not decreasing.
K13s are much cheaper to purchase but do require skilled staff for
maintenance, so the large clubs tend to keep their K13s while small club
tend to move to plastic.

Having been trainee and trainer on both K13 and Twin - IMHO the K13 is much
more demonstrative and forgiving for instruction and first solo flights.
However a Twin would be more versatile for XC purposes

Jean

[Michel Talon]

Jean > wrote:
>> However, and contrarily to what
>> has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
>> generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
>> (at least those who were rich enough).
>
> Well, not generally - A number of large and "rich" french clubs are keeping
> their K13's and btw their market value is not decreasing.
> K13s are much cheaper to purchase but do require skilled staff for
> maintenance, so the large clubs tend to keep their K13s while small club
> tend to move to plastic.

Well i mean Moret, Buno, Beynes, Chartres, Cherence don't qualify as small
clubs and have moved plastic long ago. Are you speaking clubs in the
Alps?

>
> Having been trainee and trainer on both K13 and Twin - IMHO the K13 is much
> more demonstrative and forgiving for instruction and first solo flights.
> However a Twin would be more versatile for XC purposes
>
> Jean
>
>
>

--

Michel TALON

[Michel Talon]

Jean > wrote:
>> However, and contrarily to what
>> has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
>> generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
>> (at least those who were rich enough).
>
> Well, not generally - A number of large and "rich" french clubs are keeping
> their K13's and btw their market value is not decreasing.
> K13s are much cheaper to purchase but do require skilled staff for
> maintenance, so the large clubs tend to keep their K13s while small club
> tend to move to plastic.

Well i mean Moret, Buno, Beynes, Chartres, Cherence or Montpellier
don't qualify as small clubs and have moved plastic long ago. Are you
speaking clubs in the Alps?

>
> Having been trainee and trainer on both K13 and Twin - IMHO the K13 is much
> more demonstrative and forgiving for instruction and first solo flights.
> However a Twin would be more versatile for XC purposes
>
> Jean
>
>
>

--

Michel TALON