More 3's?

[[email protected]]

With tried and true Ventus 3 and JS3, wonder how long before the ASG-33?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 4:13:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> With tried and true Ventus 3 and JS3, wonder how long before the ASG-33?

And maybe soon the 2-33B

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 4:13:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> With tried and true Ventus 3 and JS3, wonder how long before the ASG-33?

Why would you want ASG-33 if ASG-29 can outfly V3 in strong conditions? It seems there was a need to put a limit on wing loading for Grand Prix to make the V3 competitive.

[[email protected]]

You will need an ASG-33 not to outfly a V3 - but the JS-3. The V3 and JS-1c (18m) match each other with the same wingloading as seen in Chile yesterday - and the JS-3 is a decade newer than the JS-1.....

Maybe I am just biased being a South African - but I am thinking the Germans have some catching up to do in the next few years. The JS-3 is going to be unbeatable in 15m and 18m Classes - and the JS-1c will still be very competitive in the Open Class in any competition. This advantage will be even greater where wingloading is a factor (strong days) and especially where it's weight that's limited, and not wingloading (like the Sailplane GrandPrix)..

[krasw]

torstai 18. tammikuuta 2018 5.14.33 UTC+2 kirjoitti:
> You will need an ASG-33 not to outfly a V3 - but the JS-3. The V3 and JS-1c (18m) match each other with the same wingloading as seen in Chile yesterday - and the JS-3 is a decade newer than the JS-1.....
>
> Maybe I am just biased being a South African - but I am thinking the Germans have some catching up to do in the next few years. The JS-3 is going to be unbeatable in 15m and 18m Classes - and the JS-1c will still be very competitive in the Open Class in any competition. This advantage will be even greater where wingloading is a factor (strong days) and especially where it's weight that's limited, and not wingloading (like the Sailplane GrandPrix).

Sebastian Kawa commented that V3 was much better in final glide, and it was quite obvious just by watcing races. No doubt engineers at Schleicher are at drawing board as we speak. Currently only interesting thing is how V3 and JS3 compares, JS1 and '29 belong to previous generation.

[Ian[_2_]]

On 18/01/2018 05:14, wrote:

> Maybe I am just biased being a South African - but I am thinking the Germans have some catching up to do in the next few years. The JS-3 is going to be unbeatable in 15m and 18m Classes - and the JS-1c will still be very competitive in the Open Class in any competition. This advantage will be even greater where wingloading is a factor (strong days) and especially where it's weight that's limited, and not wingloading (like the Sailplane GrandPrix).
>

I am also a biased South African :-). With 3 declared 1250km FAI
triangles logged on OLC in 2018, the JS3 is clearly very competitive.
But the most remarkable thing that the Jonker's achieved is the time
line for the progress from concept -> prototype -> competition results
-> production -> certification. In terms of competitive flying, I think
the Jonkers have the advantage for a while (unless the IGC reinvents the
rules).

But in terms of the market, a lot will depend on engine packages, all of
the manufacturers have a lot of work to do, with both self launchers and
sustainers. I have seen both S-H and Schleicher "self launchers" opting
to take aerotows this season (for heat, maintenance or serviceability
reasons) as well as outlandings from self launchers and sustainers. The
FES's got grounded due to battery fires :-( The only package that seems
to be delivering consistently reliably seems to be the DG's, but they do
not feature in the competitions. And the engine packages are ALL high
maintenance!

Ian

[[email protected]]

DG self launchers use the same Solo engine/Binder pylon systems as SH, EB (Binder) and HPH.

[[email protected]]

Hi Krasw,

apologies for my ignorance in this case, but could you briefly guide me to a link to that Kawa interview/comment?

My (superficial) impression from the last two long final glides was that both ships are performing more or less equally in capable hands even under slightly different conditions
- Tuesday was a 87 Km final glide (with practically identical flight paths from TP 4 with 55 Km to go) at assumed airspeeds above the "optimized" flight envelope (i.e. above 220-230 km/h IAS) - the winning V3 and JS1 crossed the finish line within 9 seconds
- Yesterday the 5 leaders were within 5 seconds after their 100+ Km spectacular ridge line dash at probably more representative speeds around 170-200 Km/h (in this case probably with some small differences in micromanaging their individual flight paths and their willingness to hug the rocks). Even the ASG 29 which is probably a bit handicapped due to the 52 Kg/m2 wingload limit instead of the usual MTOW limitation came in within 25 secs...

With these few data points I was under an initial low confidence impression of some kind of "equality" of V3 and JS 1 at least in the high speed ranges (I have no useful observations regarding handling/climbing differences or performance in the low to mid speed range...) - but obviously a comment from Kawa that the V3 outperforms his JS 1 in final glide would supersede that initial impression.

Thanks and best
Marc

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 11:55:02 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hi Krasw,
>
> apologies for my ignorance in this case, but could you briefly guide me to a link to that Kawa interview/comment?
>
> My (superficial) impression from the last two long final glides was that both ships are performing more or less equally in capable hands even under slightly different conditions
> - Tuesday was a 87 Km final glide (with practically identical flight paths from TP 4 with 55 Km to go) at assumed airspeeds above the "optimized" flight envelope (i.e. above 220-230 km/h IAS) - the winning V3 and JS1 crossed the finish line within 9 seconds
> - Yesterday the 5 leaders were within 5 seconds after their 100+ Km spectacular ridge line dash at probably more representative speeds around 170-200 Km/h (in this case probably with some small differences in micromanaging their individual flight paths and their willingness to hug the rocks). Even the ASG 29 which is probably a bit handicapped due to the 52 Kg/m2 wingload limit instead of the usual MTOW limitation came in within 25 secs...
>
> With these few data points I was under an initial low confidence impression of some kind of "equality" of V3 and JS 1 at least in the high speed ranges (I have no useful observations regarding handling/climbing differences or performance in the low to mid speed range...) - but obviously a comment from Kawa that the V3 outperforms his JS 1 in final glide would supersede that initial impression.
>
> Thanks and best
> Marc

The fact that the JS-1 was flown by Kawa might have contributed to it being closer than it might have been! Note that the Ventus2cT also was in the mix, but flown by someone with thousands of hours locally (buy that man a beer!)... It looks to me like the V3 in those conditions is the one to have. It would have been nice to see a JS-3 or two as well.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:13:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>With tried and true Ventus 3 and JS3, wonder how long before the ASG-33?

Well...
let me put it this way.
A 33 is in the works, but it won't be be amed ASG.


Cheers
Andreas

[krasw]

On Thursday, 18 January 2018 18:55:02 UTC+2, wrote:
> Hi Krasw,
>
> apologies for my ignorance in this case, but could you briefly guide me to a link to that Kawa interview/comment?
>
> Thanks and best
> Marc

http://www.sebastiankawa.pl/12132/polamania-skrzydel-oby-nie/

[[email protected]]

Dziękuję

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 1:13:46 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> With tried and true Ventus 3 and JS3, wonder how long before the ASG-33?

Since Michael Greiner left Schleicher a few years ago it wouldn't be an "ASG". I have not seen anything that would make me want to make a decision between a Ventus 3; JS-3 or ASG-29, other than the 29 is an older design. The ventus cannot get to as high a wing loading of the of the 29 nor the Js-3.. While the JS-3 can get to the highest wing loading, it is light on established norms of wing area and apparently one needs to thermal it at higher speeds than the JS-1C. Remember the issues with both the LS-7 nd ASW-24? I am sure they are all great gliders, 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Could be one glider might me better for strong conditions (Js-3) and another better in lighter conditions (V3) and one might be the perfect balance between the two (ASG-29) or might not. However, if I was in a position to purchase I would want to wait at least until after this race season to see how the gliders compare. Now if S-H came out with a Qunitus 2!

[Ian[_2_]]

On 18/01/2018 11:52, wrote:

> DG self launchers use the same Solo engine/Binder pylon systems as SH, EB (Binder) and HPH.

There are a few DG400's and DG500's at our club. I think they still have
Rotax engines. But they all seem to have better climb performance than
the self launching Ventus, Arcus and ASG 32.

Maybe DG tolerate heavier, bulkier and more draggy installations in
return for better climb performance. Or maybe the older airframes have
thicker profiles and less wing loading which gives them a better climb rate.

Ian

PS: I was wrong about the JS3. They have now flown 4, not 3, declared
1250 FAI triangles in 2018. Watch this space ...

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 12:25:50 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:

> Sebastian Kawa commented that V3 was much better in final glide, and it was quite obvious just by watcing races. No doubt engineers at Schleicher are at drawing board as we speak. Currently only interesting thing is how V3 and JS3 compares, JS1 and '29 belong to previous generation.

With all due respect, the SGP racers are limited to same wing loading not the design limit of the 18 meter. So gliders with a bit more wing area are loaded heavier. One final glide I watched, the winning glider was 60 kg heavier than 2nd place, or so said the 2nd place pilot. I would want to see a final glide at all up weight before deciding which is better in glide.

[Tom BravoMike]

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 12:11:46 PM UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 January 2018 18:55:02 UTC+2, wrote:
> > Hi Krasw,
> >
> > apologies for my ignorance in this case, but could you briefly guide me to a link to that Kawa interview/comment?
> >
> > Thanks and best
> > Marc
>
> http://www.sebastiankawa.pl/12132/polamania-skrzydel-oby-nie/

I believe this passage is meant (Sebastian's comment on the second race):

"Odskoczyłem do przodu i wyrównały się wysokosci, ale to niestety nie wystarczyło. 15 lat rozwoju profili aerodynamicznych okazało się zbyt dużym skokiem, by równać się z Ventusami 3.Do tego te fatalne deformacje skrzydła które szlifowałem tyle dni, ale całkowicie zlkwidować się ich nie dało. Obaj mnie przegonili."

which in free translaton means:

I sprang forward, and the altitudes were now equal, but unfortunately that was not sufficient. The 15 years of the development of the aerodynamic profiles proved to be too big a leap in order to compare with the Venti3s. Additionally, those fatal deformations in the wing which I tried to polish out over so many days, but could not be removed completely. They both outran me.."

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 6:32:39 PM UTC-5, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 12:11:46 PM UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> > On Thursday, 18 January 2018 18:55:02 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > Hi Krasw,
> > >
> > > apologies for my ignorance in this case, but could you briefly guide me to a link to that Kawa interview/comment?
> > >
> > > Thanks and best
> > > Marc
> >
> > http://www.sebastiankawa.pl/12132/polamania-skrzydel-oby-nie/
>
> I believe this passage is meant (Sebastian's comment on the second race):
>
> "Odskoczyłem do przodu i wyrównały się wysokosci, ale to niestety nie wystarczyło. 15 lat rozwoju profili aerodynamicznych okazało się zbyt dużym skokiem, by równać się z Ventusami 3.Do tego te fatalne deformacje skrzydła które szlifowałem tyle dni, ale całkowicie zlkwidować się ich nie dało. Obaj mnie przegonili."
>
> which in free translaton means:
>
> I sprang forward, and the altitudes were now equal, but unfortunately that was not sufficient. The 15 years of the development of the aerodynamic profiles proved to be too big a leap in order to compare with the Venti3s. Additionally, those fatal deformations in the wing which I tried to polish out over so many days, but could not be removed completely. They both outran me."

Today however we saw that this was not true.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

If you watch some of the earlier video's of this race you will hear the commentators' talk about how rough Kawa"s JS-1C is and how much work he did not it prior to the race. Might be a factor.

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 12:25:50 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> torstai 18. tammikuuta 2018 5.14.33 UTC+2 kirjoitti:
> > You will need an ASG-33 not to outfly a V3 - but the JS-3. The V3 and JS-1c (18m) match each other with the same wingloading as seen in Chile yesterday - and the JS-3 is a decade newer than the JS-1.....
> >
> > Maybe I am just biased being a South African - but I am thinking the Germans have some catching up to do in the next few years. The JS-3 is going to be unbeatable in 15m and 18m Classes - and the JS-1c will still be very competitive in the Open Class in any competition. This advantage will be even greater where wingloading is a factor (strong days) and especially where it's weight that's limited, and not wingloading (like the Sailplane GrandPrix).
>
> Sebastian Kawa commented that V3 was much better in final glide, and it was quite obvious just by watcing races. No doubt engineers at Schleicher are at drawing board as we speak. Currently only interesting thing is how V3 and JS3 compares, JS1 and '29 belong to previous generation.

[Tony[_5_]]

a factor in what? how he was able to reel in V3's on the last two racing days? how he is leading overall with 2 days to go?

[[email protected]]

Would you rather have the best glider in the world or be the best pilot in the world? It’s obvious who that is.

[[email protected]]

The beauty of the Sailplane Grand Prix is that by controlling wingloading - they effectively handicap the latest gliders. This allows pilot skill to shine through even if flying the previous generation of 18m gliders.

[Peter Purdie[_3_]]

Anyone know why none of the JS3s in the Australian Nationals are no
longer flying?

At 07:03 19 January 2018, wrote:
>The beauty of the Sailplane Grand Prix is that by controlling wingloading
-
>they effectively handicap the latest gliders. This allows pilot skill to
>shine through even if flying the previous generation of 18m gliders.
>

[[email protected]]

1 is still flying
1 was damaged during an outlanding
1 unknown

CJ

[[email protected]]

P.S. It's a damn shame that Norm's 179.6kph in his new JS3 was reduced to a leisurely 167.8kph due coming home 14 minutes under time :( It would have been trumped the very deserving winner by over 5%

CJ

[[email protected]]

Am Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2018 18:55:24 UTC+1 schrieb Andreas Maurer:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:13:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:

> A 33 is in the works, but it won't be be amed ASG.
>

What will it be then?

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 7:56:05 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2018 18:55:24 UTC+1 schrieb Andreas Maurer:
> > On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 13:13:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:
>
> > A 33 is in the works, but it won't be be amed ASG.
> >
>
> What will it be then?

My guess is that the third letter will go away.
Jim

[krasw]

Another "3" saw daylight, this time 18m Diana-3:

https://www.facebook.com/KKGTeam/posts/1652307018191732

[[email protected]]

Uh oh! Look out world!!

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

There was a link to a presentation by the Jonkers of the design and build of the JS-3. Could not find that link was wondering if someone could post please.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 7:14:33 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> You will need an ASG-33 not to outfly a V3 - but the JS-3. The V3 and JS-1c (18m) match each other with the same wingloading as seen in Chile yesterday - and the JS-3 is a decade newer than the JS-1.....
>
> Maybe I am just biased being a South African - but I am thinking the Germans have some catching up to do in the next few years. The JS-3 is going to be unbeatable in 15m and 18m Classes - and the JS-1c will still be very competitive in the Open Class in any competition. This advantage will be even greater where wingloading is a factor (strong days) and especially where it's weight that's limited, and not wingloading (like the Sailplane GrandPrix).

[RobKol]

https://livestream.com/accounts/19840380/events/7714527/player?width=640&height=360&enableInfoAndActivity=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=true&mute=false

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 11:55:24 AM UTC-6, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> A 33 is in the works, but it won't be be amed ASG.

Sorry, is there another designer who would do a competition glider? Waibel is, to the best of my knowledge retired, and Heide doesn't normally do balls-out competition gliders.

[[email protected]]

Yes. Saw a couple of them a few weeks ago at Waikerie
1 damaged outlanding, 2 had tailwheel retract cable swaging issues, in one case causing other damage.
All had same problem, from new.
Hmmmm....

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Michael Greiner, the designer of the ASG-29 and ASG-32 left Schleicher after he completed his work on the ASG-32. I believe that was several years ago now.

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 7:07:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 11:55:24 AM UTC-6, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> > A 33 is in the works, but it won't be be amed ASG.
>
> Sorry, is there another designer who would do a competition glider? Waibel is, to the best of my knowledge retired, and Heide doesn't normally do balls-out competition gliders.