Purchase Questions

[Steve.T]

I'm looking at buying into a partnership. The plane is a Piper Lance (6
place, complex single engine).

>From you Piper drivers, particularly those who have Lance experience,
is there anything I need to know about? I asked an IA about 6 place
aircraft and he told me that C210s I was looking at tend to have gear
problems. What are the common Lance problems?

Being a PA28-180 driver, what should I expect in moving to a mid-70s
Lance?

Note that I do have C182 (straight and retract) time after flying C15x
and C172 before the purchase of the Cherokee.

Regards,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[jsmith]

Steve.T wrote:
> I'm looking at buying into a partnership. The plane is a Piper Lance (6
> place, complex single engine).
> From you Piper drivers, particularly those who have Lance experience,
> is there anything I need to know about? I asked an IA about 6 place
> aircraft and he told me that C210s I was looking at tend to have gear
> problems. What are the common Lance problems?

Do you want to know about flying and/or maintenance?

> Being a PA28-180 driver, what should I expect in moving to a mid-70s
> Lance?

Is it a T-tail or a straight-tail?

Always calculate a takeoff AND a landing CG.

[BTIZ]

check with the partnership about insurance with any 6 place aircraft before
you join the partnership and make that part of your decision making process.

Many insurance underwriters have drastically increased the insurance premium
and the pilot qualification requirements for 6 place aircraft.

Do a google search on this topic.. it was all over the usenet a couple of
months ago.

BT

"Steve.T" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm looking at buying into a partnership. The plane is a Piper Lance (6
> place, complex single engine).
>
>>From you Piper drivers, particularly those who have Lance experience,
> is there anything I need to know about? I asked an IA about 6 place
> aircraft and he told me that C210s I was looking at tend to have gear
> problems. What are the common Lance problems?
>
> Being a PA28-180 driver, what should I expect in moving to a mid-70s
> Lance?
>
> Note that I do have C182 (straight and retract) time after flying C15x
> and C172 before the purchase of the Cherokee.
>
> Regards,
> Steve.T
> PP ASEL/Instrument
>

[Robert M. Gary]

You need to know what insurance will be for you. Rates vary A LOT
depending on time. Also, you'll want to get a prepurchase inspection.
Don't forget to include items other than the aircraft in your evalution
such as partnership owned handheld equipment, bank account balances etc.

[Mike Rapoport]

I had a 79 Turbo Lance as a first airplane. A 79 is a T-tail. Not
surprisingly, it flys like a big PA28 since that is what it is. Control
forces are heavy in all three axis but you get used to this and most pilots
prefer this type of handling in instrument conditions. Nothing about the
maitenance is particularly unusual and there are no real "weak points". You
need to set the pitch and rudder trim properly before takeoff, but that is
about the only change from flying a PA28. The cg with two large people in
the front seats and full fuel is likely to be forward of the limit and will
require a higher approach speed in this configuration. The airplane is very
easy to land softly with someone in the rear most seat. The turbo models
tended to overheat at higher altitudes and having a TurboPlus intercooler
was a big advantage. Keep in mind that there is a lot more "stuff" on a
Lance (retractable gear, probably autopilot, probably an HSI ect) and it all
wears out, so the cost is going to be a lot more than a PA28. I had mine a
year and flew it coast to coast twice and to Mexico once puting about 350hrs
on it. Lances, particularly the turbo ones offer a lot of capability for
the money.

Mike
MU-2


"Steve.T" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm looking at buying into a partnership. The plane is a Piper Lance (6
> place, complex single engine).
>
>>From you Piper drivers, particularly those who have Lance experience,
> is there anything I need to know about? I asked an IA about 6 place
> aircraft and he told me that C210s I was looking at tend to have gear
> problems. What are the common Lance problems?
>
> Being a PA28-180 driver, what should I expect in moving to a mid-70s
> Lance?
>
> Note that I do have C182 (straight and retract) time after flying C15x
> and C172 before the purchase of the Cherokee.
>
> Regards,
> Steve.T
> PP ASEL/Instrument
>

[Steve.T]

Mike:

Thanks for your reply.

I understand what you are saying. I flew C15x until I got my PP. Then
transitioned to the C172 and it just felt like a heavier C152. When I
started complex training in a C182, now there we are talking about a
heavier airplane. Glad the elevators are balanced so that when you are
at 60Knotts you don't need to have been doing curls with 60# bars!

The Lance I'm starting to consider is not a Turbo. And my PA28 also has
rudder trim (which I get to change on rare occasions). And if I
remember correctly, this one is not a "T" tail. And right you are about
heavy controls for IFR -- I hate these simulators with the light
controls -- I apply the amount of pressure I use in my PA28 (or a
rented C172) and I get 2-8x the reaction.

I am also used to having to carry ballast to fix the CG issues. When my
wife and I are in the plane, I typically stick enough stuff in the
baggage compartment to give me 50# back there. Our PA28 flies and lands
much better that way.

The point about more stuff -- that is why I am wanting to move up. I
want an autopilot, anti-ice, complex a/c and I need to carry 4 adults
with BAGGAGE not shaving kits. This way I can work on my commercial
with my "own" a/c, get both hi-perf and complex signoffs and get my
CFI/I (well, that is the plan). AND I can do the trips that I want in
the weather we have here in Ohio.

But I wanted to ask this goup about issues that I wouldn't otherwise
know about. The C210s do have gear problems. The 337s now have an AD
about the rear engine (you must start it first - because most don't and
then sometimes forget to start it before they pull out on a runway -- I
do know a few 337 owner/pilots).

Later,
Steve.T

[Steve.T]

I've read the insurance posts. Good points. I'm trying to get our agent
to give me some idea as to what I'm looking at. They do tell me that my
having some complex/hiperf time is good, and that my instrument rating
is getting me a break on rates.

At this point it is expected that I will have to have at least 15 hours
(w/ CFI) in type and possibly 25 before passengers (that is, solo or
CFI to a total of 25 hours). So I figure this is a good time to do all
the commercial prep and check ride.

The pre-purchase inspection is one that I hadn't really thought about,
but it makes *VERY* good sense considering the disaster that I had when
I bought our PA28.

And you have another good point, inventory of what the partnership owns
(hand helds, oil, etc.).

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Mike Rapoport]

"Steve.T" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >
> The point about more stuff -- that is why I am wanting to move up. I
> want an autopilot, anti-ice, complex a/c and I need to carry 4 adults
> with BAGGAGE not shaving kits. This way I can work on my commercial
> with my "own" a/c, get both hi-perf and complex signoffs and get my
> CFI/I (well, that is the plan). AND I can do the trips that I want in
> the weather we have here in Ohio.
>
> But I wanted to ask this goup about issues that I wouldn't otherwise
> know about. The C210s do have gear problems. The 337s now have an AD
> about the rear engine (you must start it first - because most don't and
> then sometimes forget to start it before they pull out on a runway -- I
> do know a few 337 owner/pilots).
>
> Later,
> Steve.T
>

I don't think any PA32s are certified for known ice.

Mike
MU-2

[aluckyguess]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>I had a 79 Turbo Lance as a first airplane. A 79 is a T-tail. Not
>surprisingly, it flys like a big PA28 since that is what it is. Control
>forces are heavy in all three axis but you get used to this and most pilots
>prefer this type of handling in instrument conditions. Nothing about the
>maitenance is particularly unusual and there are no real "weak points".
>You need to set the pitch and rudder trim properly before takeoff, but that
>is about the only change from flying a PA28. The cg with two large people
>in the front seats and full fuel is likely to be forward of the limit and
>will require a higher approach speed in this configuration. The airplane
>is very easy to land softly with someone in the rear most seat. The turbo
>models tended to overheat at higher altitudes and having a TurboPlus
>intercooler was a big advantage. Keep in mind that there is a lot more
>"stuff" on a Lance (retractable gear, probably autopilot, probably an HSI
>ect) and it all wears out, so the cost is going to be a lot more than a
>PA28. I had mine a year and flew it coast to coast twice and to Mexico
>once puting about 350hrs on it. Lances, particularly the turbo ones offer
>a lot of capability for the money.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
So why did you get rid of it? And what did you end up with. I have PA-28 180
and have been thinking about a new plane and a Lance was on the list. I am
now thinking about buying a friends V tail Bonanza.

[Mike Rapoport]

"aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>I had a 79 Turbo Lance as a first airplane. A 79 is a T-tail. Not
>>surprisingly, it flys like a big PA28 since that is what it is. Control
>>forces are heavy in all three axis but you get used to this and most
>>pilots prefer this type of handling in instrument conditions. Nothing
>>about the maitenance is particularly unusual and there are no real "weak
>>points". You need to set the pitch and rudder trim properly before
>>takeoff, but that is about the only change from flying a PA28. The cg
>>with two large people in the front seats and full fuel is likely to be
>>forward of the limit and will require a higher approach speed in this
>>configuration. The airplane is very easy to land softly with someone in
>>the rear most seat. The turbo models tended to overheat at higher
>>altitudes and having a TurboPlus intercooler was a big advantage. Keep in
>>mind that there is a lot more "stuff" on a Lance (retractable gear,
>>probably autopilot, probably an HSI ect) and it all wears out, so the cost
>>is going to be a lot more than a PA28. I had mine a year and flew it
>>coast to coast twice and to Mexico once puting about 350hrs on it.
>>Lances, particularly the turbo ones offer a lot of capability for the
>>money.
>>
>> Mike
>> MU-2
> So why did you get rid of it? And what did you end up with. I have PA-28
> 180 and have been thinking about a new plane and a Lance was on the list.
> I am now thinking about buying a friends V tail Bonanza.

I got rid of it because it lacked real weather capibility, particularly
known-ice certification. I kept getting stuck on the west side of the
Sierra waiting for the weather to improve enough to return to Minden, NV. I
replaced it with a Mitsubishi MU-2 Marquise. I had meetings that I *had* to
attend regardless of the weather.

Mike
MU-2

[Steve.T]

I didn't say it was. Having anti-ice does not mean you are certified
for known icing. But it sure beats being naked and picking up ice and
having nothing you can do about it.

Just having a weeping wing would help with rime problems while climbing
out.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Mike Rapoport]

AFAIK the only anti ice equipment availible for a Lance is a heated prop and
heated pitot.

Mike
MU-2


"Steve.T" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I didn't say it was. Having anti-ice does not mean you are certified
> for known icing. But it sure beats being naked and picking up ice and
> having nothing you can do about it.
>
> Just having a weeping wing would help with rime problems while climbing
> out.
>
> Later,
> Steve.T
> PP ASEL/Instrument
>

[Dave Butler]

Steve.T wrote:
> I'm looking at buying into a partnership. The plane is a Piper Lance (6
> place, complex single engine).
>
>>From you Piper drivers, particularly those who have Lance experience,
> is there anything I need to know about? I asked an IA about 6 place
> aircraft and he told me that C210s I was looking at tend to have gear
> problems. What are the common Lance problems?
>
> Being a PA28-180 driver, what should I expect in moving to a mid-70s
> Lance?

I made the same transition a few years ago when I owned a PA28-180 and was
renting a Lance when I needed more capacity, and just for the experience and
speed. I finally gave it up when I decided I didn't need the capacity very
often, it was expensive to fly, and I wasn't flying it enough to stay proficient
in it.

It's not what you'd call nimble. Control forces are high compared to your PA28-180.

Lots of right rudder required for t/o and climb. I used to set the rudder trim
all the way to the right for t/o, and all the way to the left for cruise.

It's a ground-lover on the takeoff roll. The one I flew was a T-tail, so maybe
the straight tail is more enthusiastic about leaving the ground.

It will carry some ice. Fat wings are not so vulnerable to the loss of lift due
to changing the shape of the airfoil. I'm not recommending experimenting with
this, obviously.

Easy to get a forward CG. Think about your loading.

With club seating the second row of seats rubs against your seat, and you may
not be able to move your seat all the way back.

Fuel-injected Lyc was reluctant to start when hot. I've flown behind some other
FIed Lycs, but this one was the worst for hot starts.

Don't forget about the other non-model-specific evaluations when entering a
partnership, like your compatibility with your partners, a common view of how
the plane is to be maintained (they all *say* they maintain it in tip-top
shape), how upgrades and maintenance are financed, how to decide when to do an
overhaul, etc.

Good luck. Sounds like fun.

Dave