Re: Aviation Safety Counselor's???

[NW_PILOT]

"captain bill" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Contact the FSDO, Aviation Safety Program Manager. That person is 'in
> charge' of the ASC's in the district.
>
> In the mean time, what is it that you are interested in?
>
> ASC Denver
>
> NW_PILOT wrote:
> > How do we find out who are our local Aviation Safety Counselor's?
>

I Want to do some spins but no one here seems to want to provide instruction
in them unless I rent their airplane witch is either a cub or something
other than a Cessna 150, I am thinking about just going out and doing them
my self just to be able to learn spin & recovery the characteristics of my
150. I do have a few willing instructors but I would have to depart with 6
gallons of fuel and still be slightly over gross. Oh I am not BS about the
lazy instructors you all should see how their boss dose 337's and log book
entry's call them up and tell them you want to schedule 2 hours of flight
time and 1 hours ground in the morning and the same in the afternoon they
will say they are unable to do it its to physically demanding on the
instructors.


Look how lazy their boss is their instructors are not any better.

Yes this is a real 337 & log book entry that is being redone by my IA.

Front

http://www.warflying.net/337/337F.jpg

Back

http://www.warflying.net/337/337B.jpg

Engine Log book Entry

http://www.warflying.net/337/logbook1.jpg

[Doug]

I suggest you get spin training with an instructor. That is what I did.
I then was able to go out and spin my airplane by myself without
mishap. I would not recommend you teaching yourself how to spin in your
Cessna 150 without someone else along who can get you out of trouble.
It could be fatal if you get disoriented. For most people, spins are
scary at first. Panic can set in. Just the comfort of having an
instructor along will give the confidence needed to successfully and
without fear complete the manuever. Once you have recovered from
several spins, you should be in good shape to do it on your own.

As for the paperwork entries in your logbook. What I do is have them
give me the sticker with work description. I then put it, by itself, in
an 8x10 folder, on it's own sheet of paper in a glassene envelope. All
nice and neat, and if mistakes are found later on, they can be fixed
without making a mess. This is the best way to keep a logbook that
results in a neat, readable, sequential logbook that has no mistakes or
messes in it. It is a flexible system that will stand the test of
time. I never let any mechanic put anything in my logbooks. They all
do it differently and it's a guaranteed mess.

[Montblack]

("NW_PILOT" wrote)
> I do have a few willing instructors but I would have to depart with 6
> gallons of fuel and still be slightly over gross.


How much does cold weather play into your decision to take off in your 150
at, or slightly over, gross? Just wondering?


Montblack
It's in the mid 20's F in Minnesota today.
Sun has alreday destroyed the skating rinks.
Ice houses must be off the lakes Feb 28. Up North they get a few more weeks.

[NW_PILOT]

"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I suggest you get spin training with an instructor. That is what I did.
> I then was able to go out and spin my airplane by myself without
> mishap. I would not recommend you teaching yourself how to spin in your
> Cessna 150 without someone else along who can get you out of trouble.
> It could be fatal if you get disoriented. For most people, spins are
> scary at first. Panic can set in. Just the comfort of having an
> instructor along will give the confidence needed to successfully and
> without fear complete the manuever. Once you have recovered from
> several spins, you should be in good shape to do it on your own.

I would if I could find an instructor to do it with!

>
> As for the paperwork entries in your logbook. What I do is have them
> give me the sticker with work description. I then put it, by itself, in
> an 8x10 folder, on it's own sheet of paper in a glassene envelope. All
> nice and neat, and if mistakes are found later on, they can be fixed
> without making a mess. This is the best way to keep a logbook that
> results in a neat, readable, sequential logbook that has no mistakes or
> messes in it. It is a flexible system that will stand the test of
> time. I never let any mechanic put anything in my logbooks. They all
> do it differently and it's a guaranteed mess.
>

The shady paperwork shows their incompetence and laziness to do their job,
And they also hire lazy instructors that don't want to do anything other
than primary instruction.

[Stefan]

NW_PILOT wrote:

> I would if I could find an instructor to do it with!

You wrote they were willing to do it in their plane. It makes a lot of
sense when an instructor wants to do spin training in a plane he
actually knows. On the other hand, it's a very bad idea to even consider
spin training over gross. My sympathies are for the instructors.

> The shady paperwork shows their incompetence and laziness to do their job,

Nothing stops you to look for another school. If you're serious about
spin training (which is a good thing), your best choice is to look for a
dedicated aerobatics school with instructors who really understand spins
in their various modes.

Stefan

[Doug]

If you cannot find an instructor to teach you spins in your airplane,
find one that will teach you them in their airplane. Then you can go
out and spin your airplane. Don't spin your own airplane just because
you couldn't get an instructor to show you how. Donnot compromise on
this. There is no need to spin an airplane. Just don't spin it. Flying
involves being able to say no. Sometimes you have to say no to
yourself. It is called resisting temptation. Learn how to do it. It
will make you stronger.

As for the incorrect paperwork. Welcome to the real world. A long time
ago I found that I could not change other peoples behavior (I have a
hard time changing my own). I cannot change how the world works.
Therefore I must adapt to how the world works. If mechanics put
incorrect paperwork into your logbooks, stop that from happening. Find
a way. I gave you my way. It might work for you. There are other ways.
Find one.

[tony roberts]

If you have instructors who will do it in your plane with 6 gall fuel,
then you do have instructors who will do it in your plane.

If you want to depart with more than 6 gallons of fuel, you have
instructors who will do it in their plane.

You talk about doing it alone in your plane.

Of the above 3 scenarios, doing it alone in your plane seems to me to be
the only no-go scenario.

I have many many spins under my belt.
And I can tell you one thing.
If my first spin had been on my own, I wouldn't be here now.

So - don't even think about it.
Go with the instructor - any fool can spin - but you need to know a
couple of things to recover from it.

Tony
C-GICE


In article >,
"NW_PILOT" > wrote:

> "captain bill" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > Contact the FSDO, Aviation Safety Program Manager. That person is 'in
> > charge' of the ASC's in the district.
> >
> > In the mean time, what is it that you are interested in?
> >
> > ASC Denver
> >
> > NW_PILOT wrote:
> > > How do we find out who are our local Aviation Safety Counselor's?
> >
>
> I Want to do some spins but no one here seems to want to provide instruction
> in them unless I rent their airplane witch is either a cub or something
> other than a Cessna 150, I am thinking about just going out and doing them
> my self just to be able to learn spin & recovery the characteristics of my
> 150. I do have a few willing instructors but I would have to depart with 6
> gallons of fuel and still be slightly over gross. Oh I am not BS about the
> lazy instructors you all should see how their boss dose 337's and log book
> entry's call them up and tell them you want to schedule 2 hours of flight
> time and 1 hours ground in the morning and the same in the afternoon they
> will say they are unable to do it its to physically demanding on the
> instructors.
>
>
> Look how lazy their boss is their instructors are not any better.
>
> Yes this is a real 337 & log book entry that is being redone by my IA.
>
> Front
>
> http://www.warflying.net/337/337F.jpg
>
> Back
>
> http://www.warflying.net/337/337B.jpg
>
> Engine Log book Entry
>
> http://www.warflying.net/337/logbook1.jpg




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Steve.T]

I have a few suggestions. These are to be done in parallel:

1) Before you go and do a spin in your airplane, make sure that you
have obtained the latest updates to the POH (or equivalent) for your
airplane (by serial number). Review all STCs that have been installed
to see what they have done relative to spins in your aircraft.

Next, read, re-read, and read again what it says to do should you get
into a spin. Now make sure that all the placards are in place in your
aircraft concerning spins.

2) Find a CFI that is familiar with your a/c type that knows how to do
a spin and will teach you recovery. Go there and learn to do it right.

---------
Having someone teach you how to do it in a plane, as opposed to talking
you through it makes a world of difference. However, my dad talked me
through how he did spin recovery in a J3. My first CFI refused to teach
spin recovery, because no one should aggravate a stall into a spin.

I said #1 because I have inadvertantly agravated a stall into a spin on
two occassions. The first one was with that CFI (the one who refused to
teach spin recovery) in the plane, during the summer in Texas in the
'70s (my dad's voice came firm and clear from the back seat on what to
do to recover, because that CFI just sat there rather pale). The second
one was after I had started flight training again and was about 10 days
from the check ride - I was doing t/o stalls and slow speed stalls on
my own trying to improve my recovery to the point that I lost no more
than 20' (I actually got real good at this and started recovering with
no loss of altitude -- with just me in the plane).

Remember, if you want to recover from a stall during base to final,
KEEP THE PLANE COORDINATED. If you want to discover what happens if you
don't, at altitude (I'd recommend 3000 AGL), get real slow, nose high
and make an uncoordinated turn just as you stall and you too can flip
over on your back and spin (that was basically what happened to me just
before I took the check ride). After you recover look at how much
altitude you lost before pull out. You are probably 100+' in the
ground. Try it again with the plane coordinated (ball centered) and use
the rudder to pick up the wing AFTER you push the yoke forward -- see
how much altitude you lost on that one.

BTW - I never had problems with motion sickness until that inadvertant
spin in East Texas while I was in college. Now steep turn practice will
make me rather queasy. The first time you do a spin that you didn't
intend to do will stay with you for a long time.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[tony roberts]

Hi Steve

Your item 2 is essential.
The rest is optional.
I only hope that NW Pilot gets that before he tries it alone.

Tony
C-GICE

In article . com>,
"Steve.T" > wrote:

> I have a few suggestions. These are to be done in parallel:
>
> 1) Before you go and do a spin in your airplane, make sure that you
> have obtained the latest updates to the POH (or equivalent) for your
> airplane (by serial number). Review all STCs that have been installed
> to see what they have done relative to spins in your aircraft.
>
> Next, read, re-read, and read again what it says to do should you get
> into a spin. Now make sure that all the placards are in place in your
> aircraft concerning spins.
>
> 2) Find a CFI that is familiar with your a/c type that knows how to do
> a spin and will teach you recovery. Go there and learn to do it right.
>
> ---------
> Having someone teach you how to do it in a plane, as opposed to talking
> you through it makes a world of difference. However, my dad talked me
> through how he did spin recovery in a J3. My first CFI refused to teach
> spin recovery, because no one should aggravate a stall into a spin.
>
> I said #1 because I have inadvertantly agravated a stall into a spin on
> two occassions. The first one was with that CFI (the one who refused to
> teach spin recovery) in the plane, during the summer in Texas in the
> '70s (my dad's voice came firm and clear from the back seat on what to
> do to recover, because that CFI just sat there rather pale). The second
> one was after I had started flight training again and was about 10 days
> from the check ride - I was doing t/o stalls and slow speed stalls on
> my own trying to improve my recovery to the point that I lost no more
> than 20' (I actually got real good at this and started recovering with
> no loss of altitude -- with just me in the plane).
>
> Remember, if you want to recover from a stall during base to final,
> KEEP THE PLANE COORDINATED. If you want to discover what happens if you
> don't, at altitude (I'd recommend 3000 AGL), get real slow, nose high
> and make an uncoordinated turn just as you stall and you too can flip
> over on your back and spin (that was basically what happened to me just
> before I took the check ride). After you recover look at how much
> altitude you lost before pull out. You are probably 100+' in the
> ground. Try it again with the plane coordinated (ball centered) and use
> the rudder to pick up the wing AFTER you push the yoke forward -- see
> how much altitude you lost on that one.
>
> BTW - I never had problems with motion sickness until that inadvertant
> spin in East Texas while I was in college. Now steep turn practice will
> make me rather queasy. The first time you do a spin that you didn't
> intend to do will stay with you for a long time.
>
> Later,
> Steve.T
> PP ASEL/Instrument




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[George Patterson]

NW_PILOT wrote:
>
> I do have a few willing instructors but I would have to depart with 6
> gallons of fuel and still be slightly over gross.

That's an hour in a 150. Can you reach a practice area, do a few spins, and
return in half an hour?

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[NW_PILOT]

"Steve.T" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I have a few suggestions. These are to be done in parallel:
>
> 1) Before you go and do a spin in your airplane, make sure that you
> have obtained the latest updates to the POH (or equivalent) for your
> airplane (by serial number). Review all STCs that have been installed
> to see what they have done relative to spins in your aircraft.
>
> Next, read, re-read, and read again what it says to do should you get
> into a spin. Now make sure that all the placards are in place in your
> aircraft concerning spins.

Already Done.

>
> 2) Find a CFI that is familiar with your a/c type that knows how to do
> a spin and will teach you recovery. Go there and learn to do it right.

Hard to find someone local that wants to teach spin recovery, If I could
find someone local that wont put me over gross even with 6 gallons of fuel I
would. Its just a thought in my mind right now of doing it alone. I may
never do it but as the names of the instructors that refuse in my little
black book get longer and longer the more I think about just going out and
giving it a try as I have pushed almost every limit of my little 150 already
except spins.

[[email protected]]

Ummmm...are you looking for a CFI to do some spin training? Do you have
your own aircraft? This whole thread seems to have been diluted to the
point I can't understand it or who is saying what to who!
I am in central Oregon at present, have done literally thousands of
spins as an instructor in a variety of aircraft. What are you trying to
do? Would be happy to help if I can.
Ol Shy & bashful
p.s. I am not free but cost effective

[tony roberts]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Ummmm...are you looking for a CFI to do some spin training? Do you have
> your own aircraft? This whole thread seems to have been diluted to the
> point I can't understand it or who is saying what to who!

As I read it, this thread is about trying to talk NWPILOT out of going
up on his own, without any instruction, and practicing spins,

If I am wrong I apologise to anyone that I may have offended,
If I am right then I can only say that this is a really dumb thread, and
that NWPILOT should give his head a shake and rethink this whole thing.
You do NOT go practice spins, regardless of any excuses, by anyone,

Tony
C-GICE



> I am in central Oregon at present, have done literally thousands of
> spins as an instructor in a variety of aircraft. What are you trying to
> do? Would be happy to help if I can.
> Ol Shy & bashful
> p.s. I am not free but cost effective




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[NW_PILOT]

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-573A93.22324626022005@shawnews...
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
> > Ummmm...are you looking for a CFI to do some spin training? Do you have
> > your own aircraft? This whole thread seems to have been diluted to the
> > point I can't understand it or who is saying what to who!
>
> As I read it, this thread is about trying to talk NWPILOT out of going
> up on his own, without any instruction, and practicing spins,
>
> If I am wrong I apologise to anyone that I may have offended,
> If I am right then I can only say that this is a really dumb thread, and
> that NWPILOT should give his head a shake and rethink this whole thing.
> You do NOT go practice spins, regardless of any excuses, by anyone,
>
> Tony
> C-GICE


Tony, It's just a thought I probably will not do it. Just ****es me off that
instructors will deny instruction to people unless you rent the flight
schools airplanes or will be willing to go over gross with min fuel.

[[email protected]]

Tony
Unfortunately that is the mid set of many today. I did my first spin on
my first solo and found it of enough interest that I did several before
I came back to do the obligatory takeoff and landings. Of course that
was in the 50's when pilots still did spins without the trepidation so
prevelant today. And, of course the aircraft were different then too.
Since then, I have done spins in quite a large variety of aircraft with
and without students. Yes I still go out to practice them.
22,000 hours in general aviation and licensed in both the USA and
Canada
Cheers
Ol Shy & Bashful ATP ASMELS-Rotor IFR/CFII-RAM

[[email protected]]

Hey
We can go up with short fuel, do the spins, then you can practice a for
real dead stick landing! No big deal except for the paperwork if it
gets screwed up........<ggg ;<)...

[[email protected]]

There's also the insurance issue. I don't think you can expect
an instructor to get in a privately owned airplane unless they
are "named insured" on the owner's insurance policy and the
policy provides a level of coverage that the instructor is
comfortable with. (If I was the instructor, I would also want
to know the aircraft's maintenance history, etc.)

As for the 6gal/over gross, I found that comment confusing.
(Unless either this individual or all the instructors they've
talked to are big, heavy types, I would think that the W&B
would be ok with 6gal in the tanks, which would be ok for
a 45min spin trip, I'd think?)

Doing intentional spins when outside the utility W&B limits
is definitely a no no. (The W&B for typical 150s around here
would allow student+instructor+6gal, unless the student and/or
instructor are pretty darn heavy.)

And I'll add my name to the "don't try the first spins on your
own" list, rick

[Aaron Coolidge]

In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
: There's also the insurance issue. I don't think you can expect
: an instructor to get in a privately owned airplane unless they
: are "named insured" on the owner's insurance policy and the
: policy provides a level of coverage that the instructor is
: comfortable with.

Why would you think this? I (and others) have taken instruction in my
(and other) privately owned airplanes without naming anyone additional
on the insurance.
--
Aaron C.

[Steve Foley]

Let me see if I have this straight.

You, minimum fuel, and an instructor are over gross for your plane.

You are not willing to fly under these conditions.

You are ****ed off at the instructor for these reasons.

What, specifically, do you expect the instructor to do about this?


"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...


> Tony, It's just a thought I probably will not do it. Just ****es me off
that
> instructors will deny instruction to people unless you rent the flight
> schools airplanes or will be willing to go over gross with min fuel.

[Morgans]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:735Vd.88525$QS5.21384@trndny06...
> Let me see if I have this straight.
>
> You, minimum fuel, and an instructor are over gross for your plane.
>
> You are not willing to fly under these conditions.
>
> You are ****ed off at the instructor for these reasons.
>
> What, specifically, do you expect the instructor to do about this?

It's just NW pilot; you can't expect him to be rational, either.
--
Jim in NC

[George Patterson]

Steve Foley wrote:
>
> What, specifically, do you expect the instructor to do about this?

Go on a diet? :-)

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.