Preliminary planning for AK flight

[[email protected]]

Hey all... I saw the other post on a "long x-c" and figured I'd throw this in
for thought (and not hijack his thread). One of my plane partners and I are planning
to fly to Alaska this upcoming summer. I'm from there, and have driven the Alaska
highway a number of times, but he's never been there. Thus, he's got no idea how far
it *really* is... :)

I'm planning on running through the AOPA's "How to fly to Alaska" info, but I
figured I'd get some preliminary info from those here who may have done it. Relevant
info:

Plane: PA-28-180 (We're not in that much of a hurry)
Departure: Southwest Virginia
Destination: Juneau, AK... possibly excursion up north to interior (Fairbanks, etc)
Approx straight-line distance: 3000nm

I plan on flying more or less like driving... i.e. a few long days during the
boring 2/3 of the trip (OH, IN, IL, WI, IA, MN, ND, SK, AB), and then slow down a bit
for the interesting parts. Do most people follow the highway up from BC, YT and
beyond?

My folks will be in Juneau at the time, so the destination is a "home-base."
Most likely fly in via White pass and Skagway if the weather permits. Well aware of
the bad weather issues of SE-AK, but not necessary as relating to light GA flight. I
figure it will be clear (ha ha!), or high VFR scud to get down the pass and the
channel. I don't think a Cherokee's up to IFR into Juneau.

Anway, I figured I'd get some prelim thoughts from others. Sounds like a
great adventure, and I hope to be celebrating the completion of my degree.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

wrote:
>
> I plan on flying more or less like driving... i.e. a few long days
during the
> boring 2/3 of the trip (OH, IN, IL, WI, IA, MN, ND, SK, AB), and then
slow down a bit
> for the interesting parts. Do most people follow the highway up from
BC, YT and
> beyond?

I followed the highway from BC. It generally has much better
weather than either the trench or coastal routes.

>
> My folks will be in Juneau at the time, so the destination is a
"home-base."
> Most likely fly in via White pass and Skagway if the weather permits.
Well aware of
> the bad weather issues of SE-AK, but not necessary as relating to
light GA flight. I
> figure it will be clear (ha ha!), or high VFR scud to get down the
pass and the
> channel. I don't think a Cherokee's up to IFR into Juneau.

This is a real tough one. Going from Whitehorse to Skagway via White
Pass can be iffy at best when VFR. Even when VFR conditions are being
reported on both sides, White Pass is often socked in. Sometimes for
days on end. If you are IFR capable and the conditions are right (no
freezing, reasonable winds) that might be your best bet.

I used White Pass (VFR) several times to get back and forth to
coastal destinations and let's just say it's a good thing I didn't have
to be anywhere at a specific time. Each time I either had to go over
the top and look for a hole on the other side, or slog through the
marginal VFR under the deck and close to the rocks. The local pilots'
definition of "the pass is open" is probably a lot different from that
of most pilots.

FWIW, I never once made it on time for Customs inspection in Skagway.
Customs is not onsite at the airport. They send someone out from the
highway station. If you're a few minutes late, they leave and you have
to call them back out when you arrive. Apparently, this ticks them
off.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

> wrote:
: I followed the highway from BC. It generally has much better
: weather than either the trench or coastal routes.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Besides, I know the highway, and it'd be
cool to see it in "accelerated" mode vs. driving. I just remember it being a helluva
long way between Laiird River and Laiird hotsprings (by road). I would think the
Alaska style of "camping wherever" isn't that uncommon, either.

: > the bad weather issues of SE-AK, but not necessary as relating to
: light GA flight. I
: > figure it will be clear (ha ha!), or high VFR scud to get down the
: pass and the
: > channel. I don't think a Cherokee's up to IFR into Juneau.

: This is a real tough one. Going from Whitehorse to Skagway via White
: Pass can be iffy at best when VFR. Even when VFR conditions are being
: reported on both sides, White Pass is often socked in. Sometimes for
: days on end. If you are IFR capable and the conditions are right (no
: freezing, reasonable winds) that might be your best bet.

Yeah, the pass is ugly, even on a good day. I figure worst case (given we
want to get into Juneau for some King crabbing) would be to have the backup plan of
leaving the plane in Whitehorse and figuring a way to take the ferry in. I'm IFR
capable, but having lived in Juneau I know how ugly the terrain around the airport is.
Aside from the fancy D-GPS pioneered by AK airlines (that only they can use), I think
that that the only thing I could fly would be a VOR/DME. Something like 1500' mins,
and 8500' MSA IIRC. Running the gauntlett down Gastineau channel doesn't sound like a
good plan in a Cherokee.

: I used White Pass (VFR) several times to get back and forth to
: coastal destinations and let's just say it's a good thing I didn't have
: to be anywhere at a specific time. Each time I either had to go over
: the top and look for a hole on the other side, or slog through the
: marginal VFR under the deck and close to the rocks.

Ughh... giving me willies already. Mountains are big enough there that it'd
have to be a pretty *big* hole to come down through. Easy to pull a "box canyon"
accidentally through a small hole.

The local pilots'
: definition of "the pass is open" is probably a lot different from that
: of most pilots.
Most assuredly. Something about old/bold pilots is especially true in SE-AK.
:)

: FWIW, I never once made it on time for Customs inspection in Skagway.
: Customs is not onsite at the airport. They send someone out from the
: highway station. If you're a few minutes late, they leave and you have
: to call them back out when you arrive. Apparently, this ticks them
: off.

Which brings up an interesting point... is White Pass or coming down
Haines-way better for flying? I haven't gotten far enough to look at a chart or
anything yet.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Montblack]

("jgalban" wrote)
<snip>
> FWIW, I never once made it on time for Customs inspection in Skagway.
> Customs is not onsite at the airport. They send someone out from the
> highway station. If you're a few minutes late, they leave and you have
> to call them back out when you arrive. Apparently, this ticks them
> off.


What's the skinny on carrying a gun when flying in Alaska?

Regs or recommendation?


Montblack

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("jgalban" wrote)
> <snip>
>
> What's the skinny on carrying a gun when flying in Alaska?
>
> Regs or recommendation?

Inside Alaska? I don't think the state requires a permit even for concealed
carry of handguns, and IIRC the state laws used to require carrying a rifle
or shotgun as part of survival supplies on commercial air taxis, though they
now only stipulate "reasonable supplies" or something like that. I think the
real issue is crossing in and out of Canada. Long guns properly secured and
declared shouldn't pose a problem but I don't think the customs guys will
take nicely to handguns.

-cwk.

[Montblack]

("Colin W Kingsbury" wrote)
<snip>
>I think the real issue is crossing in and out of Canada. Long guns properly
>secured and declared shouldn't pose a problem but I don't think the customs
>guys will take nicely to handguns.


I thought this was an issue until recently, when there was one of those
letters of understanding things issued between the two countries - since to
get to Alaska from the Lower 48, flying through (or into) Canada sometimes
happens.


Montblack

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> > wrote:
>
> : I used White Pass (VFR) several times to get back and forth to
> : coastal destinations and let's just say it's a good thing I didn't
have
> : to be anywhere at a specific time. Each time I either had to go
over
> : the top and look for a hole on the other side, or slog through the
> : marginal VFR under the deck and close to the rocks.
>
> Ughh... giving me willies already. Mountains are big enough there
that it'd
> have to be a pretty *big* hole to come down through. Easy to pull a
"box canyon"
> accidentally through a small hole.

Whoa! No holes over the mountains for me. With the pass socked in
and Skagway reporting 1,500 ft. ceilings, I'd just overfly Skagway out
into the channel until I found a nice sized hole over the water. Then
just duck under and fly back. I always found one, but the backup plan
was just to fly back to Whitehorse if none showed up. Note : This only
works if Skagway's ceiling is occsionally indicating broken. If it's
solid overcast, you might not find a hole until you get to Russia :-)

> Which brings up an interesting point... is White Pass or coming down

> Haines-way better for flying? I haven't gotten far enough to look at
a chart or
> anything yet.
>
Couldn't say. I only used W.P. to get to the coast.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[jsmith]

I remember driving from Glacier to the International Peace Park in 1981.
At the border checkpoint, the Canadian Customs officer was searching the
car.
We watched as his eyes opened wide and his body went stiff as he was
feeling under the drivers seat.
Inquiring what was wrong, he replied in a disappointed tone that he
thought he had found a handgun under the seat, only to learn that the
pistol grip and trigger were attached to a bottle of Windex.

> "Montblack" > wrote in message
>>What's the skinny on carrying a gun when flying in Alaska?
>>Regs or recommendation?

[ET]

"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in
nk.net:

>
> "Montblack" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ("jgalban" wrote)
>> <snip>
>>
>> What's the skinny on carrying a gun when flying in Alaska?
>>
>> Regs or recommendation?
>
> Inside Alaska? I don't think the state requires a permit even for
> concealed carry of handguns, and IIRC the state laws used to require
> carrying a rifle or shotgun as part of survival supplies on commercial
> air taxis, though they now only stipulate "reasonable supplies" or
> something like that. I think the real issue is crossing in and out of
> Canada. Long guns properly secured and declared shouldn't pose a
> problem but I don't think the customs guys will take nicely to
> handguns.
>
> -cwk.
>
>
>
I've heard horror stories from the RV (campers) crowd of whole RV's
being confiscated when a gun was found. I think I would Fedex my gun to
AK if I needed it....


--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[[email protected]]

Montblack wrote:
>
>
> What's the skinny on carrying a gun when flying in Alaska?

>
> Regs or recommendation?

There have been changes in both Alaska's and Canada's regs since I
went up. 5 yrs. ago, Canada had no problem with pilots taking a long
gun (IIRC 36+ ") on their way to Alaska. I read a few years ago that
they would be requiring either a multi-day "gun safety" class or you
can waive that by paying a fee for each firearm. I can't say for sure
whether or not that policy became a reality. Anyone made the trip
recently?

Alaska regs no longer require you to carry a firearm, but they highly
recommend it (as do I). I took a 12-gauge with slugs. The regs still
do require you to carry a detailed list of survival gear.

John Galban====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

> wrote:
: Whoa! No holes over the mountains for me. With the pass socked in
: and Skagway reporting 1,500 ft. ceilings, I'd just overfly Skagway out
: into the channel until I found a nice sized hole over the water. Then
: just duck under and fly back. I always found one, but the backup plan

That's what I meant... the hole would have to be big enough over the water, and the
wind slow enough to know you could circle through it before the hole drifted into the side of
the channel (and into a mountain).

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[vincent p. norris]

> I followed the highway from BC.

The Highway is one way to go to Fairbanks, although the Cassiar
Highway is more spectacular if the wx is good.

We rented a car in Whitehorse and drove down to Skagway. A good way
to do it.

vince norris

[Colin W Kingsbury]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Alaska regs no longer require you to carry a firearm, but they highly
> recommend it (as do I). I took a 12-gauge with slugs.

Hmm, never hunted brown bear, but my gut instinct is that I'd go with
buckshot in that use case. I'd much rather hit Yogi with one pellet of 00
than whizz a slug right past him. Maybe load a slug or two first and then
2-3 rounds of 00 and hope you never need them.

If you're talking real survival you might want to carry a box of birdshot
too to use for hunting. Hit anything smaller than a deer with a 12ga slug
and there isn't going to be much meat left.

-cwk.

[Matt Whiting]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>> Alaska regs no longer require you to carry a firearm, but they highly
>>recommend it (as do I). I took a 12-gauge with slugs.
>
>
> Hmm, never hunted brown bear, but my gut instinct is that I'd go with
> buckshot in that use case. I'd much rather hit Yogi with one pellet of 00
> than whizz a slug right past him. Maybe load a slug or two first and then
> 2-3 rounds of 00 and hope you never need them.

An 00 pellet would just make a brown bear really mad. I'd definitely
stick with the slugs. Personally, I'd prefer a .338 Win Mag or larger,
but a slug at close range would like be effective.


> If you're talking real survival you might want to carry a box of birdshot
> too to use for hunting. Hit anything smaller than a deer with a 12ga slug
> and there isn't going to be much meat left.

Yes, that is one advantage of a scattergun ... you can carry a variety
of ammo. Personally, I'd probably be just as happy with my Super
Blackhawk. It is much more compact than a shotgun and you can get shot
loads for the .44 Mag as well that are adequate for small game.

The .44 is marginal for bear, but better than a stick!

Matt

[George Patterson]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
>
> Hmm, never hunted brown bear, but my gut instinct is that I'd go with
> buckshot in that use case. I'd much rather hit Yogi with one pellet of 00
> than whizz a slug right past him. Maybe load a slug or two first and then
> 2-3 rounds of 00 and hope you never need them.

I did a photo trip with L.L. Rue once, and he described going after bears in
Alaska. He said the outfit that flew them in provided them with short shotguns
for defense. IIRC, he said the first two shells were buckshot and the last was a
slug.

He and his son were trying to get in a good position, and one of the bears
started heading for his son. He said that after the bear moved off, he didn't
know until the film was processed whether he had reached for the camera or the
shotgun (turned out it was the camera). His son didn't seem to be real pleased
with that story.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Doug]

I've been up to Alaska and back twice in my Husky, as well as two trips
to Canada.
There are usually tailwinds up the coast and tail winds down the Alaska
highway, or the more more scenic but less historical Cassiar highway
(through Smithers). The coast in the summer is doable, but cloudier
than inland. There really is no way to know where the best weather
would be. I would fly where the good weather is. Any and all of the
routes are doable in a small airplane, though the Coast route does not
follow a highway. There are three highways connecting the inland to the
coast, all are mountainous.

Canada permits longguns, essentially no pistols. There is a $50
Canadian fee and you have to declare them. Although there is a rather
outdated, almost never enforced rule that you have a radio permit, if
you doon't have one, don't bother. No one asks. I'd recommend carrying
some food and survival gear, though it is not mandatory. Pistols are ok
in a plane in Alaska but how are you going to get it there? No
concealed carry on your person without permits in Alaska. Basically if
you bring a gun, a shotgun makes the most sense and is the most
politically correct. I've haven't been bothering, never have needed
one.

To cross the border, file a US flightplan and call Canadian Customs. It
is easier to clear Customs at an airport that is not major, but is
still big enough to have a full time Customs officer, so he doesn't
have to drive in. Better to be a little late than early with your
arrival. Flight plans are pretty much mandatory in Canada.

Sporty's or some similar place sells charts, and you need the Canadian
equivalent to the US Airport Facilities book. I used WACs and my
updated GPS. Flying under Canadian rules is not a problem, there are
some differences but not much.

Go ahead and plan your flight, but be prepared to change your plans
because one route can be weathered in and the other routes still
flyable.

The coast route is the most scenic and adventurous especially if you
fly over the mountains to get there from inland. The Cassiar highway is
more scenic than the Alaskan highway, but the Alaskan highway is more
"historically interesting". But all three routes are doable, along
with various combinations, though the coastal route is over water for
at least some of the trip. You are going to have to fly over some water
to get to Juneau, so you will be exposed to water anyway (unless you
come in HIGH right over the mountain wilderness from the east, no road
to follow and some of the MOST remote terrain I've ever seen). There is
no road that connects Juneau to ANYWHERE. When you fly the coast you
are usually flying over water but near land. This is true for the
entire route. If you go to the coast count on getting weathered in for
a day or two somewhere. Statistically July 4th is th clearest weather,
certainly is the warment week of the year and has looong days.

The trip is certainly doable. Get your aircraft in the best shape you
can, buy the charts, update your GPS and go. It is a fantastic trip!

[vincent p. norris]

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:23:22 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:
>An 00 pellet would just make a brown bear really mad.

That was my reaction, too.

> Personally, I'd probably be just as happy with my Super Blackhawk.

I have one of those, too, that I've used for deer hunting, but I took
a 12 ga. pump and slugs on my Alaska trips. Handguns are forbidden in
Canada; but I'd have carried the shotgun in any case.

A fellow I know hunts bears (successfully) here in PA with a .44, but
our bears aren't grizzlies. Besides, he was a member of the USMC
pistol team. (I wasn't.)

> you can get shot loads for the .44 Mag as well that are adequate for small game.

I have no evidence, but I'd guess that's an extremely short-range
weapon.

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

> I'd recommend carrying some food and survival gear, though it is not mandatory.

Is that a recent change? A booklet I obtained from Transport Canada
before my first trip to Alaska had a list of *required* survival gear.
It included 10,000 calories per person, fishing gear, mosquito
netting, sleeping bag, flares, and a number of other items.

> if you bring a gun, a shotgun makes the most sense and is the most
>politically correct. I've haven't been bothering

IIRC, a gun is *required* in Alaska. Has that changed? My last trip
there was about six years ago.
>
> Flight plans are pretty much mandatory in Canada.

There is (or was) a loophole: As an alternative to a flight plan, you
can "notify a reponsible adult" of your plans. On our trips we had
several airplanes, so the pilot of one plane "notified" the pilot of
another plane, etc.

vince norris

[Mike Rapoport]

The guides up there all carry 12ga slug guns.

Mike
MU-2


"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> Alaska regs no longer require you to carry a firearm, but they highly
>> recommend it (as do I). I took a 12-gauge with slugs.
>
> Hmm, never hunted brown bear, but my gut instinct is that I'd go with
> buckshot in that use case. I'd much rather hit Yogi with one pellet of 00
> than whizz a slug right past him. Maybe load a slug or two first and then
> 2-3 rounds of 00 and hope you never need them.
>
> If you're talking real survival you might want to carry a box of birdshot
> too to use for hunting. Hit anything smaller than a deer with a 12ga slug
> and there isn't going to be much meat left.
>
> -cwk.
>
>
>

[Ron McKinnon]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
>> I'd recommend carrying some food and survival gear, though it is not
>> mandatory.
>
> Is that a recent change? A booklet I obtained from Transport Canada
> before my first trip to Alaska had a list of *required* survival gear.
> It included 10,000 calories per person, fishing gear, mosquito
> netting, sleeping bag, flares, and a number of other items.

Such particulars are no doubt a good idea, but the regulations are not this
specific. The regulations require:

: 602.61 ... no person shall operate an aircraft over
: land unless there is carried on board survival equipment, sufficient for
: the survival on the ground of each person on board, given the
: geographical area, the season of the year and anticipated seasonal
: climatic variations, that provides the means for
: (a) starting a fire;
: (b) providing shelter;
: (c) providing or purifying water; and
: (d) visually signalling distress.

There are of course reasonable requirements for flights over water
as well.

>> ... >
>> Flight plans are pretty much mandatory in Canada.
>
> There is (or was) a loophole: As an alternative to a flight plan, you
> can "notify a reponsible adult" of your plans. On our trips we had
> several airplanes, so the pilot of one plane "notified" the pilot of
> another plane, etc.

Not a loophole. An alternative. The VFR alternative to a VFR
Flight Plan is a Flight Itinerary. One or the other is required for
any flight more than 25 nm from the departure aerodrome, except
that a Flight *Plan* is required for flights between Canada and a
foreign state. A flight *Itinerary* can be filed formally
with FSS/tower etc., or with a responsible person. A responsible
person is "an individual who has agreed with the person who has
filed a flight itinerary to ensure that the following are notified in
the manner prescribed in this Division, if the aircraft is overdue,
namely, (a) an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a
community aerodrome radio station, or (b) a Rescue Co-ordination
Centre."

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART6/602.htm#602_73

[Howard Nelson]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART6/602.htm#602_73
>

An interesting link. I was sure that when I researched this issue several
years ago that Canada had very specific survival equipment requirements for
flight over the "northern territories which included saw, hatchet, fishing
line, long gun, etc. Seems all that has been simplified.

Howard
C182