Why not a hinged panel?

[Jay Honeck]

As many of you may recall, we had the Skycraft landing lights installed
in our 235 last month. During our first night flight with them last
week we popped the 5 amp circuit breaker for the left side panel
lights.

This had no effect on the landing lights, which continued to work
perfectly (and, wow, are they terrific!), but after re-setting the
breaker once -- and smelling hot wiring -- we decided to have it
checked by the shop who installed the landing lights.

Sure enough, there is a transistor on the side of the box holding the
"bank" of switches in the panel that was intermittently touching a
screw head, causing it to short out. This was evidently caused by a
slight shifting of the assembly during installation of the Skycraft
switch, and was easily fixed by moving the assembly 1/4 inch and
re-tightening the screw a few more turns. They also put a dab of
silicone on the end of the screw -- just in case.

It's amazing. No matter what I have done in the panel, or which shop I
use, this kind of "collateral damage" always seems to happen. And,
after working under the panel for a few hours myself, it's hard to
really blame anyone -- there is just NO room to maneuver behind that
panel!

Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
switches?

Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

Yep.... it's called the FAA. Sorry Jay... no common sense fix for a
repetative problem outside the original certification is allowed. All 30 and
40 year old planes were designed perfectly, no changed required or approved!
:)

Actually, if you have any good contacts at your local FSDO, you may inquire
about a field approval. Especially if you could find an STC or field
approval where it has previously been done.

Jim

[jsmith]

You should take a look at the Trinadad and Tobago aircraft made by
(senior moment... what's the name of that French company???).
They have this feature for accessing the instruments.

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
> that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
> panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
> switches?
> Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?

[Billy]

> As many of you may recall, we had the Skycraft landing lights installed
> in our 235 last month. During our first night flight with them last
> week we popped the 5 amp circuit breaker for the left side panel
> lights.
>
> This had no effect on the landing lights, which continued to work
> perfectly (and, wow, are they terrific!), but after re-setting the
> breaker once -- and smelling hot wiring -- we decided to have it
> checked by the shop who installed the landing lights.
>
> Sure enough, there is a transistor on the side of the box holding the
> "bank" of switches in the panel that was intermittently touching a
> screw head, causing it to short out. This was evidently caused by a
> slight shifting of the assembly during installation of the Skycraft
> switch, and was easily fixed by moving the assembly 1/4 inch and
> re-tightening the screw a few more turns. They also put a dab of
> silicone on the end of the screw -- just in case.
>
> It's amazing. No matter what I have done in the panel, or which shop I
> use, this kind of "collateral damage" always seems to happen. And,
> after working under the panel for a few hours myself, it's hard to
> really blame anyone -- there is just NO room to maneuver behind that
> panel!
>
> Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
> that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
> panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
> switches?
>
> Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?
> --

Deep instruments in the top of the panel will hit the glareshield.

[[email protected]]

Billy wrote:
> >
> > Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?
> > --
>
> Deep instruments in the top of the panel will hit the glareshield.

Not to mention that you'll have to have a few feet of extra wire/hose
going to every radio/instrument. It could get kinda crowded back
there.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
: that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
: panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
: switches?

: Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?

It would probably take more doing than you think. That panel is a structural
component to the fuselage. You might be able to pull it off, but you'd have to add some
pretty significant bracing on the hinges to do it.

Just as an aside... our PA-28 hasn't had the interior in it for awhile. When I
installed all the avionics in it, I had enough room to fit my shoulders between the center
floor console and the side of the fuselage. When I tried working on my mechanic's plane's
avionics, he didn't have the interior removed. That extra inch was enough to not let my
shoulders through and was *a lot* harder to work with.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a PITA to work on... but it can often be made easier.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

On 4 Mar 2005 13:54:51 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

snip

>Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
>that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
>panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
>switches?
>
>Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?

There are a bunch of 'planes out there with hinged panels. They are
the cat's ass when they are brand spanking new. After a few years and
a few mods, you find that most of them don't swing anymore. And most
people aren't willing to spend the money to restore them to a
"swingable" condition.

As others have mentioned, it would be a tuff mod to accomplish on a
PA28.

Heh, you can swing the engine on a Super Cub, as long as some dumbass
hasn't re-wired it to make it non-swingable (see above).

TC

[Peter R.]

Billy > wrote:

>> Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?
>> --
>
> Deep instruments in the top of the panel will hit the glareshield.

Design the glareshield to flip up like a toilet seat.

Next?

--
Peter













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[Jay Honeck]

>>Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?
>
> There are a bunch of 'planes out there with hinged panels. They are
> the cat's ass when they are brand spanking new. After a few years and
> a few mods, you find that most of them don't swing anymore. And most
> people aren't willing to spend the money to restore them to a
> "swingable" condition.

Man, as an owner, I'd kill the avionics tech that made it "non-swingable"
(or whatever). Just think of the billions of hours of billable tech time
wasted because they have to take the seats out, etc., in order to get at the
backside of things...

Oh, wait... Ah. I get it now.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Aaron Coolidge]

wrote:
: Heh, you can swing the engine on a Super Cub, as long as some dumbass
: hasn't re-wired it to make it non-swingable (see above).

Cessna 195? Swingable Jacobs.
--
Aaron C.

[Aaron Coolidge]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
: that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
: panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
: switches?

I fixed, uh, a landing light wire on an almost new Mooney a couple weeks
ago. That huge circuit breaker panel on the right side is a swing out
panel, at least on M20R airplanes. It slides out about 6" then swings open
so that you can get at the back of the 1,000,000 circuit breakers installed
in it. It was pretty nifty.
--
Aaron C.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
> Billy wrote:
>
>>>Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?
>>>--
>>
>>Deep instruments in the top of the panel will hit the glareshield.
>
>
> Not to mention that you'll have to have a few feet of extra wire/hose
> going to every radio/instrument. It could get kinda crowded back
> there.

True, but I have seen a few homebuilts that had their panels designed to
slide out and/or tilt out. It isn't that big a deal to put a transverse
loop of wire harness and vacuum line to allow a couple of feet of movement.


Matt

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 01:46:46 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Man, as an owner, I'd kill the avionics tech that made it "non-swingable"
>(or whatever). Just think of the billions of hours of billable tech time
>wasted because they have to take the seats out, etc., in order to get at the
>backside of things...
>
>Oh, wait... Ah. I get it now.
>
>;-)

One of my top ten favorites was an old V-tail Bananer that had fixed
nuts on the aft (aircraft aft) side of the instrument panel. Which
basically meant pulling an instrument required getting to the screw
heads. Get the picture?

Gotta admit Jay, I get a kick out of youse guys carrying on about
having to get behind the panel. To steal/paraphrase a line from a
plumber friend of mine-your **** (or your **** jobs) is my bread and
butter.

All kidding aside, minimal access combined with tight quarters and
marginal engineering makes it really tough to root around
behind-the-dash without messing things up. Even if you're skilled and
very, very careful.

TC

[George Patterson]

wrote:
>
> All kidding aside, minimal access combined with tight quarters and
> marginal engineering makes it really tough to root around
> behind-the-dash without messing things up. Even if you're skilled and
> very, very careful.

Yep. I know a fellow who took all the steps to get certified as an avionics
tech. Bought all the equipment and set up a shop. After a couple of years, he
packed it in. He was a pretty big guy and just couldn't get into all the spaces
he needed to. My avionics tech is about 5'9" and thin as a rail.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Wouldn't it be awesome if someone came up with an STC'd Cherokee panel
> that had a piano hinge at the bottom, so that we could simply flip the
> panel down, and get at the back of the radios, instruments and
> switches?
> Is there some reason this hasn't been attempted?

As atleast one other has pointed out, the Cherokee panel is structural,
and modifications to it must be done with this in mind. I doubt that a
flip down panel could be accomplished and the structural nature of the
panel be preserved.

One note of interest... Cherokee Six/Saratoga class Pipers, that have a
baggage compartment in between the cabin and the engine, have removable
panels that allow access to the back of the instrument panel.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Doug]

Jay,
There is a simpler solution. My Husky has a panel that screws into
the panel. Loosen the screws and pull out the 4 insturments attached.
You now have a big hole that alllows pretty good access to everything.
Still, its not always easy. But every round instrument comes out
without too much trouble. Doubt if there is any retrofit of such a
panel on your Cherokee though. BTW a new panel is MAJOR bucks, so any
retrofitting wouldn't be cost effective anyway.

Whatever you do make CERTAIN the none of the wires are getting tangled
with you yoke arm etc. I've seen where travel got restricted on the
yoke due to adding some wiring and the tech not taking that into
account.

[[email protected]]

I did a Glastar panel, and seeing that the landing gear
sockets would dig into my back, and the stick would be in the way in
any case, I designed the central radio stack to carry hinges on each
vertical edge, and the left and right panels were swung at this point.
Several screws along the top and bottom edges kept things closed. It
took a bit more hose and wire, and attention had to be paid to just
where you located the six flight instruments so that the outer ones
wouldn't snag the frame, but it worked like a charm and it made
finishing the airplane so easy and servicing the systems even easier.
The only visible evidence that things were different were the piano
hinges, just visible beside the radios.

Dan

[Jay Honeck]

> The only visible evidence that things were different were the piano
> hinges, just visible beside the radios.

Dang, Dan, that's EXACTLY what I want.

I wonder if the new glass panels in Pipers (with the Avidyne system) and
Cessnas (with the Garmin stuff) have some easier way to get at the back-side
of things? Since they had to re-design the whole panel for the displays, I
sure hope they took this into account.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Don Tuite]

This is the wrong thread to post this to, Jay, but in response to your
Seattle question, let me second the advice of the guy who suggested
you stay in downtown Seattle. If you can afford it, the Edgewater, at
the north end of Elliott Bay is a beauty. There's lots right there
along the waterfront, and the acquarium is a don't-miss-it attraction.

And like the fellow said, from Elliott bay, just drive south on the
Viaduct, get on West Marginal, and you're at the museum of flight.

And if you've got business, send Mary and the kids on a day trip to
Victoria on the catamaran ferry.

Do not under any circumstances book a hotel anywhere near Seatac
airport. Even the nice hotels are soul-less (The Mariott gets credit
for trying--nice atrium.), and the stuff in-between is all fast-food,
lap-dancing, and mini-indian casinos with pawn shops across the
street. (OK, there's also some neighborhood Halal groceries and an
upscale Larry's supermarket..)

The good brewpubs are in the Ballard neighborhood or between there and
the Fremont neighborhood. If you find yourself in Fremont, ask for
directions to the Troll bridge. (not a pub). In Ballard, you should
visit Archie McPhee. (Which seems to have moved to Market from Stone
Way.)

Don

[[email protected]]

: Whatever you do make CERTAIN the none of the wires are getting tangled
: with you yoke arm etc. I've seen where travel got restricted on the
: yoke due to adding some wiring and the tech not taking that into
: account.

I'll second this. Especially with the later-model Cherokees that have the
center radio stack. The bottom of the stack will clear the dual control chain by
about 1/2" is all. If your radio stack is full and the back of the radios drop 1/2"
due to improper support, it will quite solidly remove the last few inches of back
elevator travel. It could really ruin your day on landing, I figure.

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Aaron Coolidge]

: : Whatever you do make CERTAIN the none of the wires are getting tangled
: : with you yoke arm etc. I've seen where travel got restricted on the
: : yoke due to adding some wiring and the tech not taking that into
: : account.

: I'll second this. Especially with the later-model Cherokees that have the
: center radio stack. The bottom of the stack will clear the dual control chain by
: about 1/2" is all. If your radio stack is full and the back of the radios drop 1/2"

Said Cherokee airplanes have a hanger that is supposed to support the back
of the radios, but it is rarely connected in any meaningful way. I found it
floating loose on my airplane. When I re did the radios I made a little
bracket to support the back end of both sides of the radio stack. The
mechanic said "what are you making that for?" and I showed him. He'd never
seen the hanger bracket used, either.
--
Aaron C.

[Mike Granby]

Get a Saratoga. You can then attack it from the other side via the
front baggage compartment. It still sucks, but marginally less
so........ :)

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck Mar 5, 8:17 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.owning
From: "Jay Honeck" > - Find messages by this
author
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 04:17:12 GMT
Local: Sat, Mar 5 2005 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: Why not a hinged panel?
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> The only visible evidence that things were different were the piano
> hinges, just visible beside the radios.


Dang, Dan, that's EXACTLY what I want.

>I wonder if the new glass panels in Pipers (with the >Avidyne system)
and
>Cessnas (with the Garmin stuff) have some easier >way to get at the
back-side
>of things? Since they had to re-design the whole >panel for the
displays, I
>sure hope they took this into account.

I bet not. It would cost too much and require the hoses and wiring to
be suitably restrained to avoid fouling the control column, yet
moveable to allow the panels to open. Works well on stick airplanes.
Which, incidentally, are REAL airplanes, especially if they have
the little wheel in back (I'm ducking...).