One step closer to owning an Arrow

[Jack Allison]

My partners and I have a verbal offer on a '70 Arrow. We're working on
getting it down in writing but, so far, things look pretty good.
Biggest issue right now is getting the pre-buy scheduled and having SB
1006, the wing spar corrosion service bulletin, performed.

I'm planning to fly back to Chicago (rats, commercially) next weekend to
look at/touch/smell/fly the plane, review the logs, talk to the A&P,
etc. Hoping for some decent flying weather while I'm back there. If
all goes well, one partner and I will bring along an instructor (for
insurance requirements) with us in 3-4 weeks on a return trip to bring
the plane home.

The best words I heard yesterday were from one partner who, after
talking to the seller, called me and said "Get out your checkbook".

Many thanks to Jay Honeck who did us a HUGE favor and flew to Kenosha,
WI, took 100 pictures, talked to the seller, then got all the data back
to me in record time. Man, it pays to have friends scattered across the
US who are similar aviation nuts. Someday, I hope to return similar
favors to anyone needing some help from the left coast.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Honeck]

> Many thanks to Jay Honeck who did us a HUGE favor and flew to
Kenosha,
> WI, took 100 pictures, talked to the seller, then got all the data
back
> to me in record time.

Pshaw. 'Tweren't nothing.

Besides, I only did it so that:

(A) You have a manly low-wing to fly to OSH this year (instead of
another rental "C" product)...

(B) I can enjoy all those beers you're going to be buying at Friar
Tuck's!

:-)

Good luck, man. I hope it passes the corrosion checks... I'm keeping
my fingers crossed that the wing spar comes out all shiny and pristine!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Pshaw. 'Tweren't nothing.

Ya, I'd probably say the same thing. I mean, *having to* fly somewhere
to look at an airplane, have lunch at a favorite spot, commit general
aviation, enjoy a day away from the business...where do I sign up for
stuff like that? :-)

>
> Besides, I only did it so that:
>
> (A) You have a manly low-wing to fly to OSH this year (instead of
> another rental "C" product)...

Ah ha! I was suspicious of this aspect of your true intentions. While
the rental "C" planes have been of the nicer variety, the cost has been
a bit much...ok, a way too much. Need to start dumping that kind of
money in to my own private aviation sink hole :-)

>
> (B) I can enjoy all those beers you're going to be buying at Friar
> Tuck's!

This aspect was always assumed. Yep, it's just might have to be a
couple pitchers for you and Mary along with as much caffeinated
beverages for the kids. I'll leave enough in the flying budget to
accommodate :-)

> Good luck, man. I hope it passes the corrosion checks... I'm keeping
> my fingers crossed that the wing spar comes out all shiny and pristine!

Me too! I've seen some of the ugly Cherokee spar corrosion pictures out
there...nasty, very nasty.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> (B) I can enjoy all those beers you're going to be buying at Friar
> Tuck's!

I'm sitting next to you, Jay.

ANOTHER(!!!) beer Jay?
Yup, thanks Jack.


Montblack ....hehehe - burp!

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
<snip>
> My partners and I have a verbal offer on a '70 Arrow. We're working on
> getting it down in writing but, so far, things look pretty good.
> Biggest issue right now is getting the pre-buy scheduled and having SB
> 1006, the wing spar corrosion service bulletin, performed.


Congratulations you, you, you, almost Arrow owner.

What kind of group are you in Jack? How'd you find them?

What are the spec numbers you're looking at in the Arrow?
4 + fuel?
Range?
gph?
Any fun speed mods?
Avionics?
etc.

I know. I know. Don't want to jinx the sale. <g>


Montblack

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Jack Allison > wrote:

> > Pshaw. 'Tweren't nothing.
>
> Ya, I'd probably say the same thing. I mean, *having to* fly somewhere
> to look at an airplane, have lunch at a favorite spot, commit general
> aviation, enjoy a day away from the business...where do I sign up for
> stuff like that? :-)

especially when you consider how perfect a day it was. :-)

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:

> I'm sitting next to you, Jay.
>
> ANOTHER(!!!) beer Jay?
> Yup, thanks Jack.

Paul who?

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:

> Congratulations you, you, you, almost Arrow owner.

Thanks. Yep, it's about as close as it gets without having spent any
money. That's gonna change by the end of the weekend as we fund our kitty.

> What kind of group are you in Jack? How'd you find them?

I've hooked up with two ATC guys. One is a controller, one is a
supervisor. Met the controller at a seminar he gave during an
Instrument ground school. One thing leads to another and what do you
know? We're both interested in co-ownership. The ATC supervisor is a
buddy of his.

>
> What are the spec numbers you're looking at in the Arrow?
> 4 + fuel?
Um...have you seen the back seat in a '70 Arrow? Vertically challenged
folks only in the back :-) Actually, 75% of the flying between all of
us will be pilot and single pax.

> Range?
Dunno. Anything more than 3 1/2 to 4 hours worth of fuel and I exceed
bladder duration so range isn't really a huge factor for me. My long
cross countries consist of fly 3-4 hours, stop, pee, refuel, repeat
until tired, stop for the night, start all over the next day.

> gph?
From what I've re read, approx. 10

> Any fun speed mods?
Not yet. Ah, the list of modifications has already started in this
area. Probably start with some Lopresti wing tips with the landing
lights/strobes/nav lights. Gotta get rid of that big ugly drag creating
belly strobe too.

> Avionics?
Standard. Mostly King. Analog radios, no GPS (yet), Loran (whoppee),
Radar altimiter (sort of cool, wouldn't pay to put one in), factory auto
pilot, dual VOR, single GS, ADF (another whoppee...darn, that means I
need to learn NDB approaches).

> I know. I know. Don't want to jinx the sale. <g>
Nah, I figure if Jay has already blessed the plane so I'm good to
go...um...provided there's none of that nasty corrosion stuff in the
wings, especially the spar caps.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Honeck]

>> What are the spec numbers you're looking at in the Arrow?
>> 4 + fuel?
> Um...have you seen the back seat in a '70 Arrow? Vertically challenged
> folks only in the back :-)

Suffice it to say that no one over 5' 9" is going to fit in back -- at least
not with their blood circulation intact.

Unless, of course, someone Mary's size (or smaller) is flying. Then, the
back seats are downright spacious!

>> Avionics?
> Standard. Mostly King. Analog radios, no GPS (yet), Loran (whoppee),
> Radar altimiter (sort of cool, wouldn't pay to put one in)

Hey, that radar altimeter is just plain slick. I've never seen one in
anything smaller than a King Air before!

>> I know. I know. Don't want to jinx the sale. <g>
> Nah, I figure if Jay has already blessed the plane so I'm good to
> go...um...provided there's none of that nasty corrosion stuff in the
> wings, especially the spar caps.

Oh, geez. NOW you've done it.

If ANYTHING goes wrong with that plane for the next 36 months, it's going to
be "That jerk Jay!" every time I turn around here...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:csvWd.37172$r55.25386@attbi_s52...
>
> If ANYTHING goes wrong with that plane for the next 36 months, it's going
> to be "That jerk Jay!" every time I turn around here...
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Ahem,

I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put a last name or initial on that
phrase...please?

;O)

The Jay in AZ

[Montblack]

("Jay Beckman" (J#1) wrote, referencing back to Jay Honeck's line (J#2)
about what Jack Allison (J#3) would think about J#2 if J#3's new plane (not
a J-3) develops problems inside the next 36 months)
<snip>
>> If ANYTHING goes wrong with that plane for the next 36 months, it's going
>> to be "That jerk Jay!" every time I turn around here...

> I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put a last name or initial on that
> phrase...please?


You had to bring this up J#1? I'm this close to being excommunicated by
Dudley!!


Montblack

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Standard. Mostly King. Analog radios, no GPS (yet), Loran (whoppee),
>>Radar altimiter (sort of cool, wouldn't pay to put one in)
>
>
> Hey, that radar altimeter is just plain slick. I've never seen one in
> anything smaller than a King Air before!
>
True, I have to agree that this will come in handy for IFR stuff and
setting for DH.

>>Nah, I figure if Jay has already blessed the plane so I'm good to
>>go...um...provided there's none of that nasty corrosion stuff in the
>>wings, especially the spar caps.
>
>
> Oh, geez. NOW you've done it.
>
> If ANYTHING goes wrong with that plane for the next 36 months, it's going to
> be "That jerk Jay!" every time I turn around here...

Well...I *do* need a scapegoat...and 36 months sounds kinda short if you
ask me. I'd much rather have the 10 yr/100K mile type of thing...oh,
right this is an airplane. If it flies, it breaks, if it doesn't fly,
it breaks more.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> Ahem,
>
> I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put a last name or initial on that
> phrase...please?
>
> ;O)
>
> The Jay in AZ

Hey, I don't mind having two scapegoats for my future airplane woes.
Besides, spreading the guilt around, you each only shoulder 1/2 the
burden, right? Works for me. Do you have any particular portion of the
plane for which you'd prefer to accept blame? :-)

<sound of Jay B in AZ smacking his head and asking "How did I get myself
into this?>


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Beckman]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>> Ahem,
>>
>> I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put a last name or initial on that
>> phrase...please?
>>
>> ;O)
>>
>> The Jay in AZ
>
> Hey, I don't mind having two scapegoats for my future airplane woes.
> Besides, spreading the guilt around, you each only shoulder 1/2 the
> burden, right? Works for me. Do you have any particular portion of the
> plane for which you'd prefer to accept blame? :-)
>

As a matter of fact, I do:

I'd be responsible for any part EXCEPT the nut that holds the yoke!!

<grin, duck, run>

> <sound of Jay B in AZ smacking his head and asking "How did I get myself
> into this?>

In the immortal words of Homer "DOH!" (that would be Homer of
Springfield...not Homer of Greece...)

:O)

Wicked Jay of the West Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Jay Beckman]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Jay Beckman" (J#1) wrote, referencing back to Jay Honeck's line (J#2)
> about what Jack Allison (J#3) would think about J#2 if J#3's new plane
> (not
> a J-3) develops problems inside the next 36 months)
> <snip>
>>> If ANYTHING goes wrong with that plane for the next 36 months, it's
>>> going
>>> to be "That jerk Jay!" every time I turn around here...
>
>> I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put a last name or initial on that
>> phrase...please?
>
>
> You had to bring this up J#1? I'm this close to being excommunicated by
> Dudley!!
>
>
> Montblack

Sorry ol' chap,

Didn't mean to drop a match on that bundle of wood at your feet. Besides, I
thought the wave of excommunications had died down of late? At least the
cries of heresy and calls for use of the dunking chair seem to have subsided
for now. You do float, don't you? Hehehe...

"Face it, you can't Torquemada nuthin'!"

Jay (J#1) Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Jack Allison]

Jay Beckman wrote:

> As a matter of fact, I do:
>
> I'd be responsible for any part EXCEPT the nut that holds the yoke!!

So, everyone read it here first on Usenet...Jay *Beckman* is responsible
for anything that breaks in this Arrow I'm in the process of buying.
Cool, I think that means you get to pay for it too! Wow, what a guy
Jay. I'll have to take you for a ride sometime. I mean, after all,
it's the least I can do. :-)

Oh, and you didn't specify which yoke...just who is "sole manipulator of
the controls", eh? Especially if it's that funny white pancake style
lever that goes up and down and makes those green lights go on and off.
Man, mess up that one and you've ruined the day :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Beckman]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>
>> As a matter of fact, I do:
>>
>> I'd be responsible for any part EXCEPT the nut that holds the yoke!!
>
> So, everyone read it here first on Usenet...Jay *Beckman* is responsible
> for anything that breaks in this Arrow I'm in the process of buying.

(Void where prohibited by very small print...and my accountant keeps a very
small typewriter for just such occasions...)

> Cool, I think that means you get to pay for it too! Wow, what a guy Jay.

Do you take S&H Greenstamps? <Caution: Flashback Alert>

>I'll have to take you for a ride sometime. I mean, after all, it's the
>least I can do. :-)

....the very least. :O)

> Oh, and you didn't specify which yoke...just who is "sole manipulator of
> the controls", eh?

I know who's starting to feel like the "Sole Manipulatee..."

>Especially if it's that funny white pancake style lever that goes up and
>down and makes those green lights go on and off. Man, mess up that one and
>you've ruined the day :-)

Good Gawd man, don't say things like that out loud!! Them "Flyin' Gremlins"
have got big ears!!!

J 1 of 4

[Jay Honeck]

>> I'd be responsible for any part EXCEPT the nut that holds the yoke!!

Gee, now I read that statement to mean that Jay B. was responsible for
everything except that little 5/8" nut under the plastic nameplate.

You know...the nut that holds (on) the yoke?

That's a pretty cheap part, Jack. I'd take him up on this offer.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

(J#1 wrote)
>...You do float, don't you? Hehehe...
>
> "Face it, you can't Torquemada nuthin'!"


A: Like a duck - oops, wrong movie.

B: "Pull"


Count de Montblack

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Gee, now I read that statement to mean that Jay B. was responsible for
> everything except that little 5/8" nut under the plastic nameplate.
>
> You know...the nut that holds (on) the yoke?
>
> That's a pretty cheap part, Jack. I'd take him up on this offer.

Oh ya, I'm having the legal paperwork drawn up as we speak. I mean, I
realized for a long time that Jay in AZ was a nice guy...but I didn't
realize the depth of his generosity. Man, I scored big time on this
one. :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[jsmith]

"Why a duck?"


> (J#1 wrote)
>> ...You do float, don't you? Hehehe...
>> "Face it, you can't Torquemada nuthin'!"

Montblack wrote:
> A: Like a duck - oops, wrong movie.
> B: "Pull"

[Jay Beckman]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> (J#1 wrote)
>>...You do float, don't you? Hehehe...
>>
>> "Face it, you can't Torquemada nuthin'!"
>
>
> A: Like a duck - oops, wrong movie.
>
> B: "Pull"
>
>
> Count de Montblack

"It's good to be the King..."

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:WyDWd.39514$r55.11251@attbi_s52...
>>> I'd be responsible for any part EXCEPT the nut that holds the yoke!!
>
> Gee, now I read that statement to mean that Jay B. was responsible for
> everything except that little 5/8" nut under the plastic nameplate.
>
> You know...the nut that holds (on) the yoke?
>
> That's a pretty cheap part, Jack. I'd take him up on this offer.
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

No, no, no...

Not the nut that holds ON the yoke...

It's the nut that holds on *TO* the yoke that I won't be responsible for...

;OP

Jay B
(Charter Member: Federal Pilot Relocation Program)

[Jon Kraus]

You mean "when something goes wrong" correct? I haven't heard any new
owners (present company included) that didn't have squawks in their new
baby... Isn't that right Jay H?

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Mooney 201 4443H

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>What are the spec numbers you're looking at in the Arrow?
>>>4 + fuel?
>>
>>Um...have you seen the back seat in a '70 Arrow? Vertically challenged
>>folks only in the back :-)
>
>
> Suffice it to say that no one over 5' 9" is going to fit in back -- at least
> not with their blood circulation intact.
>
> Unless, of course, someone Mary's size (or smaller) is flying. Then, the
> back seats are downright spacious!
>
>
>>>Avionics?
>>
>>Standard. Mostly King. Analog radios, no GPS (yet), Loran (whoppee),
>>Radar altimiter (sort of cool, wouldn't pay to put one in)
>
>
> Hey, that radar altimeter is just plain slick. I've never seen one in
> anything smaller than a King Air before!
>
>
>>>I know. I know. Don't want to jinx the sale. <g>
>>
>>Nah, I figure if Jay has already blessed the plane so I'm good to
>>go...um...provided there's none of that nasty corrosion stuff in the
>>wings, especially the spar caps.
>
>
> Oh, geez. NOW you've done it.
>
> If ANYTHING goes wrong with that plane for the next 36 months, it's going to
> be "That jerk Jay!" every time I turn around here...
>
> ;-)

[Jay Honeck]

> You mean "when something goes wrong" correct? I haven't heard any new
> owners (present company included) that didn't have squawks in their new
> baby... Isn't that right Jay H?

Well, we just had a guest this past weekend who was on his way back from
Vero Beach with a brand, new Piper Archer.

Glass cockpit and everything.

HE had no complaints -- yet.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Scott Skylane]

Jay Honeck wrote:
/snip/
> Well, we just had a guest this past weekend who was on his way back from
> Vero Beach with a brand, new Piper Archer.
>
> Glass cockpit and everything.
>
> HE had no complaints -- yet.
>
> ;-)

Heh. Back in '94, the owner of Land's End store, and his son, showed up
in their brand new, 40 hours on the tach, Piper Super Cub. The cowl was
chaffing on the exhaust, there was a small oil leak, and a few other
problems that anyone who has worked on Cubs for the last 50 years would
be familiar with.

A few years later, a guy shows up in a brand new Beech Baron 58. As
we're admiring the aircraft, chatting with the owner, I notice that
there is a relief tube in the front. He says "Heck, that's about the
only thing on this piece of crap that *hasn't* broken yet!

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[jsmith]

So, how was the ride he gave you?
Did you drool all over the interior while staring at the video screens?

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Well, we just had a guest this past weekend who was on his way back from
> Vero Beach with a brand, new Piper Archer.
> Glass cockpit and everything.
> HE had no complaints -- yet.
> ;-)

[Mark Hansen]

On 3/6/2005 20:28, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> You mean "when something goes wrong" correct? I haven't heard any new
>> owners (present company included) that didn't have squawks in their new
>> baby... Isn't that right Jay H?
>
> Well, we just had a guest this past weekend who was on his way back from
> Vero Beach with a brand, new Piper Archer.
>
> Glass cockpit and everything.
>
> HE had no complaints -- yet.
>
> ;-)

Heh heh heh. I have a really nice 1995 Honda Goldwing. I love this
bike. My friend bought a 2002 model, and has tried to get me to
ride it. I've refused on the grounds that I don't want my beautiful
bike to feel "old" by comparison ;-)

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA

[Robert M. Gary]

Why would anyone buy an Arrow. Its just a slower version of a Mooney.
The Mooney has the same engine, more reliable landing gear, and 20
knots faster for comparible models (same year, comparisons). I've had
both and find the Mooney 10 times better. The cabin size is really the
same. Both the Mooney and Arrow started out with short bodies in the
back and got longer about the same time. The cabin width is really the
same (I've measured side to side). Of course the Mooney is also much
sexier.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

Robert M. Gary > wrote:
: Why would anyone buy an Arrow. Its just a slower version of a Mooney.
: The Mooney has the same engine, more reliable landing gear, and 20
: knots faster for comparible models (same year, comparisons). I've had
: both and find the Mooney 10 times better. The cabin size is really the
: same. Both the Mooney and Arrow started out with short bodies in the
: back and got longer about the same time. The cabin width is really the
: same (I've measured side to side). Of course the Mooney is also much
: sexier.

I might argue Chevy|Ford vs. Toyota. The Piper is more "normal," and thus has
simpler, more available, and I daresay cheaper parts. The Mooney is a better
engineered plane (like a Cessna is), so it performs better and isn't as overbuilt. As
such, it probably breaks a bit more often and is more expensive to fix.

The only major breakdown in this analogy that I can see is Toyota != sexy....
:)

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> I might argue Chevy|Ford vs. Toyota. The Piper is more "normal," and thus
> has
> simpler, more available, and I daresay cheaper parts. The Mooney is a
> better
> engineered plane (like a Cessna is)

Just curious. In your view, how is a Cessna "better engineered" than a
Piper?

I've flown them both, seen the insides of both, and both brands appear to be
almost identical in both performance and design, other than the wing being
in the wrong place on Cessnas. And they have both proven, over time, to be
extremely durable, classic designs.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: Just curious. In your view, how is a Cessna "better engineered" than a
: Piper?

: I've flown them both, seen the insides of both, and both brands appear to be
: almost identical in both performance and design, other than the wing being
: in the wrong place on Cessnas. And they have both proven, over time, to be
: extremely durable, classic designs.
: --

Basically, Cessna made every model specific to its own target engineering
specs. For example, the 170/172/175/177 are all different in many ways other than
engines. Even within a specific model, things were changed a lot, resulting in lots
of trial/error. Some design tweaks were good, some notsomuch. Ignoring the high/low
wing issue, a 172 with 150hp engine is a lot better on a grass strip than a
PA-28-140/150 since it's a little lighter and has a better airfoil. By the book,
however, I believe a -140 cruises a bit faster, even though it takes more runway to
get off.

If you look at what Piper did, they had a design and pretty much stuck with
it, changing things only as necessary. Consider the stabilator on Arrows vs. older
-140's. Just additional chunks riveted on to make them wider. The -235 uses the same
wing, just with fueltank/wingtip/wing extensions added. Consider:

Pacer/Tri-Pacer/Colt
Apache/Aztruck
PA24-180/250/260/400/twin <- all have the same wing spar, for example
PA28-140/150/160/180/235
etc

... just bolt on the changes you need and pump 'em out. It makes for a
less expensive product that may not be an optimal design for any one, but is adequate
for all.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[kage]

The Cessna's have more utility. Many Cessna models are/were available with
factory seaplane kits. The 150, 170, 172, 180, 182, 185, 190, 195, &206 were
all offered as factory seaplanes. How many aluminum Pipers are seaplanes?
Answer, ZERO. Although there was "one" Cherokee 180 factory seaplane, I flew
it and it was a dog.

The landing gear is the weak spot on the Pipers. Used on unimproved strips
the struts get pushed through the wing. That's why you see Cessna 206s and
207s in Alaska with 25,000 hrs on them. The 260 and 300 Cherokee "6s" have
good load carrying capacity, but they are a pig to fly and to last at all
need to be flown off pavement. You will NEVER see a Cherokee with that kind
of time as a bush plane.

The Cessnas have a better wing for short unimproved strips, and far superior
flaps for short field approaches. Cessnas have "Paralift Flaps" big fowler
flaps, more expensive to engineer and produce, and worth it. Further, the
Cessnas all have better control harmony. Not that they feel good, but much
better handling qualities than the Cherokee line. They all fly like trucks,
just he Cherokee flys like a Mack truck and the Cessna like a Ford 150.

Piper even worked to destroy the control harmony built into the first
Warriors. They early Warriors had "Frise" ailerons and had pretty nice roll
control, better than a comparable Cessna. But by the 1976(?) model year they
were replaced by cheap piano hinge ailerons and the nice feel they had for
two years went away.

Karl


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:GwZXd.113513$4q6.87063@attbi_s01...
>> I might argue Chevy|Ford vs. Toyota. The Piper is more "normal," and
>> thus has
>> simpler, more available, and I daresay cheaper parts. The Mooney is a
>> better
>> engineered plane (like a Cessna is)
>
> Just curious. In your view, how is a Cessna "better engineered" than a
> Piper?
>
> I've flown them both, seen the insides of both, and both brands appear to
> be almost identical in both performance and design, other than the wing
> being in the wrong place on Cessnas. And they have both proven, over
> time, to be extremely durable, classic designs.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[kage]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> kage wrote:
>> How many aluminum Pipers are seaplanes?
>> Answer, ZERO.
>
> For more aluminum Piper seaplanes, check out:
>
> http://aztecnomad.com/
> http://www.aticusa.com/genav/aztec_floatplane_gallery.html
>
> Like I said, they're not popular, but they are out there.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)


John,

Clayton Scott pulled out the FIRST Aztec Nomad in 1965. He built it for my
friend Jack Murdoch, who had just sold $55,000,000 of Tektronix stock. Jack
funded the project and also owned the Piper distributorship for the West.

I was able to fly the "Nomad" extensively in the late 60's until Jack died
in a Super Cub. There is little comparison of the Aztec and the Cherokee.
One has a proud history and the other is a pretty good trainer gone bad.

Best,
Karl

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

[snip]
> ... just bolt on the changes you need and pump 'em out. It makes for a
> less expensive product that may not be an optimal design for any one, but is
> adequate
> for all.

Or it could have been they found something that worked and didn't try to
break it.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Jay Honeck]

> [snip]
>> ... just bolt on the changes you need and pump 'em out. It makes for a
>> less expensive product that may not be an optimal design for any one, but
>> is
>> adequate
>> for all.
>
> Or it could have been they found something that worked and didn't try to
> break it.

That's my take on it. As I was reading Cory's post, I couldn't help but
wonder why he was describing Cessna's design changes as being "better". It
seems Piper got it right, and just beefed things up as needed.

BTW: Our 235 has many parts different from other Cherokees, just as a 182
has many parts different from a 172. They may look the same, but
structurally they're somewhat different to handle the increased power, load
and speed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

: That's my take on it. As I was reading Cory's post, I couldn't help but
: wonder why he was describing Cessna's design changes as being "better". It
: seems Piper got it right, and just beefed things up as needed.

I didn't say "better," I said "better-engineered." That basically means that
nothing is overbuilt by more than necessary. For an aircraft, it makes for one that's
lighter and thus has better short/soft performance. The wing of the Cherokee was
designed to be very cheap/easy to make, and have very docile stall characteristics, as
you know. Unfortunately, that means its low-speed performance is pretty doggy. The
"better-engineered" plane will tend to break easier than one that's overbuilt.
Whether you consider one or the other "better" is personal preference. I, personally,
consider Piper's "better" because they have similar performance for my current needs
at a lower acquisition/maintenance cost point.


: BTW: Our 235 has many parts different from other Cherokees, just as a 182
: has many parts different from a 172. They may look the same, but
: structurally they're somewhat different to handle the increased power, load
: and speed.
: --
Different, yes. Substantially different, not really. Piper's solution to
span the gamut was to add a additional stiffener here and there, or chunking on
extensions. Cessna's solution was much more to design another whole airplane and have
teething pains all over again (think Cardinal here, for example).

-Cory



--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> I didn't say "better," I said "better-engineered." That basically
> means that
> nothing is overbuilt by more than necessary.

"better-engineered" depends on the requirements. Engineering can
take into account price, producibility, future maintenance, ease of
use, ease of transition, etc. It's not just about the flying performance
of the airplane.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[[email protected]]

: > I didn't say "better," I said "better-engineered." That basically
: > means that
: > nothing is overbuilt by more than necessary.

: "better-engineered" depends on the requirements. Engineering can
: take into account price, producibility, future maintenance, ease of
: use, ease of transition, etc. It's not just about the flying performance
: of the airplane.

Fair enough. I was referring to the flying attributes of the craft, not the
none-performance related qualities you mentioned. Perhaps a better way to put it
would be to say that brand C are better engineered according to flying requirements,
but brand P are better engineered as a product (costs lower with similar utility).

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************