Back to square one on buying an Arrow

[Jack Allison]

We got closer this time. We actually had our verbal offer accepted.
That's progress (for this, the 2nd offer we've made on an Arrow).

Things were going well into the weekend. I'd tweaked the prepurchase
agreement from the seller, made plane reservations to fly out and
see/fly/touch/smell the plane, setup the pre-buy inspection, provided a
preliminary timeline to the seller...phew, lots of work.

Sunday evening, I sent the modified prepurchase agreement to the seller
along with a proposed timeline for the pre-buy. Monday evening...wham,
the seller suddenly decides things are out of hand. I get a left hook
to the chin e-mail, completely out of the blue with all sorts of
concerns and a final suggestion that maybe it's better if everyone walks
away from the deal. Whaaaaa...huh???? Houston, we have a problem.

I called my partners and their opinion is pretty much "fine, we keep
looking"...but...I'm not ready to walk just yet. I checked into the
possibility of moving the pre-buy up a day and/or my travel out a day in
order to make a better overall timeline. It's a no-go on both accounts
so the only option is to stick with the original plans. By this point,
I know it's a dead deal. It's just a matter of confirming that fact
with the seller. The seller and I finally talk via phone and, as
expected, we're done. Oh, he gives me a line "If you can rearrange your
travel and the plane is still available, sure, call me back". Ya,
whatever.

Actually, I'm fine with everything. As many folks have advised me,
you've got to be able to walk away if things go south or just don't feel
right. Sure, it's frustrating to spend so much time only to walk away
in the end but, really, given how things suddenly came unglued on this
deal, I'd rather not buy this particular plane.

Ah, this airplane buying stuff...it's a hoot! :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student, current on base percentage: 0 for 2

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[BTIZ]

sounds to me like he really does not want to sell...
or is afraid of the outcome of the prebuy inspection..

things probably seem "out of hand" to the seller because he is not in
control..
hopefully you can recoup the cost of the canceled airline tickets.. but
doubtful

BT

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> We got closer this time. We actually had our verbal offer accepted.
> That's progress (for this, the 2nd offer we've made on an Arrow).
>
> Things were going well into the weekend. I'd tweaked the prepurchase
> agreement from the seller, made plane reservations to fly out and
> see/fly/touch/smell the plane, setup the pre-buy inspection, provided a
> preliminary timeline to the seller...phew, lots of work.
>
> Sunday evening, I sent the modified prepurchase agreement to the seller
> along with a proposed timeline for the pre-buy. Monday evening...wham,
> the seller suddenly decides things are out of hand. I get a left hook to
> the chin e-mail, completely out of the blue with all sorts of concerns and
> a final suggestion that maybe it's better if everyone walks away from the
> deal. Whaaaaa...huh???? Houston, we have a problem.
>
> I called my partners and their opinion is pretty much "fine, we keep
> looking"...but...I'm not ready to walk just yet. I checked into the
> possibility of moving the pre-buy up a day and/or my travel out a day in
> order to make a better overall timeline. It's a no-go on both accounts so
> the only option is to stick with the original plans. By this point, I
> know it's a dead deal. It's just a matter of confirming that fact with
> the seller. The seller and I finally talk via phone and, as expected,
> we're done. Oh, he gives me a line "If you can rearrange your travel and
> the plane is still available, sure, call me back". Ya, whatever.
>
> Actually, I'm fine with everything. As many folks have advised me, you've
> got to be able to walk away if things go south or just don't feel right.
> Sure, it's frustrating to spend so much time only to walk away in the end
> but, really, given how things suddenly came unglued on this deal, I'd
> rather not buy this particular plane.
>
> Ah, this airplane buying stuff...it's a hoot! :-)
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student, current on base percentage: 0 for
> 2
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:bewXd.70605$Tt.28162@fed1read05...
> sounds to me like he really does not want to sell...
> or is afraid of the outcome of the prebuy inspection..
>
> things probably seem "out of hand" to the seller because he is not in
> control..

What he said.

> hopefully you can recoup the cost of the canceled airline tickets.. but
> doubtful

Up until about a year ago I did 50-100k miles/year on the airlines and I
managed to game the system abotu as well as it can be done. The most
important thing is to try and make your ticket changes before the original
flight is scheduled, preferably 24 hours before. If you call customer
service an hour after the flight you originally purchased leaves, they will
tell you to hang the ticket on the wall as a souvenir because that's all
it's good for.

I have often had luck in applying the value of my ticket to another
itinerary even with "non-refundable" fares. Also, you can almost always
rebook the ticket for a later date with the same itinerary, even if it is a
dirt-cheap fare. You will pay a fee for all of these htings, but it's often
cheaper than a new ticket straight up.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that all the low-cost carriers e.g.
Airtran, SWA, JetBlue, and Independence typically offer a Y ticket
(full-fare refundable) for a little more than the majors will charge you for
a no-changes-allowed ticket. This more than anything else is helping them
skim tons of business travelers off the majors.

-cwk.

[Jay Beckman]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> We got closer this time. We actually had our verbal offer accepted.
> That's progress (for this, the 2nd offer we've made on an Arrow).
>

Jack,

Nice job of keeping things in perspective.

Don't get discouraged. IMO, it sounds like buying is similar to flight
training...The journey is "half' the fun.

Sounds to me like you've got the right mix of patience and humor. You guys
will "git 'er done..." eventually and it will be the right fit for all
involved.

By the mere fact that you are at the stage where you can pull the trigger on
a deal at all, puts you light years ahead of a lot of "dreamers*."

Regards,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
(*Dreamer)

[Jack Allison]

BTIZ wrote:

> things probably seem "out of hand" to the seller because he is not in
> control..
IMHO, that's it.

> hopefully you can recoup the cost of the canceled airline tickets.. but
> doubtful
I can use the ticket, for a $100 penalty plus/minus whatever fare
differential. It's good for a year. Airline is America-West. All
things considered, a fairly small amount of cash to throw away. Could
have been worse.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Ron Natalie]

Jack Allison wrote:
> We got closer this time. We actually had our verbal offer accepted.
> That's progress (for this, the 2nd offer we've made on an Arrow).
>
Yeah, but better than going out there and deciding the plane isn't
worth buying. I burned up one set of airline tickets heading out
to Kalamazoo to look at a plane. Had to use a second set to go
to Wisconsin to look at the one we bought.

Keep plugging...we must have talked to and obtained info/pictures on
a dozen planes, looked at three, bought one...

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:38:12 -0800, Jack Allison <
> wrote:

>We got closer this time.

If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go. Don't worry about the long search, it is common.
It took me close to 6 months to find my plane.

From your post history, I believe you live in CA. I was surprised
that your search brought you to the Midwest to find an Arrow. The
Arrow is common enough that I would think you could find a reasonably
priced (and good condition) example in CA, or at least the West Coast.

Of course, I just checked aso.com, and they did not list a single
Arrow in California or the W. Coast. - so maybe that's the problem,
they have all migrated East :-)

[Jim Burns]

Either he doesn't want to sell or he got a higher offer since you made
yours. This guy just doesn't sound straight up. Along those crooked lines,
a quick story about our search...

I found an Aztec that sounded perfect for us. It was in Central Texas but
being sold by the Bank of Boston, in NY. Called the number for the seller,
he could barely speak English and was not interested in talking to me. So I
looked up the N number and called the registered owner in Texas. He was "in
the shower" for 3 days, but his wife was rather pleasant. I did a net
search for other family members and discovered his son was also a pilot, and
in the same town. Called his son and he wouldn't talk about the plane, he
just referred me to the Bank. So I'm thinking it was repossessed and these
guys are broke and ****ed off at the bank.

I dug further and found out that the son and father owned a bank themselves
in Texas. I did a search on their bank and discovered that they as well as
their wives had just been banned by the Feds from working at any bank due to
misappropriation of bank funds. Seems they were using bank money to go on
vacations allll over the country, then not paying the bank back!

What appeared to be a great plane at a fair price quickly turned into a soap
opera that we ran, not walked, away from.

Jim

[[email protected]]

>Another Arrow deal gone south<

Is it only me, or does anybody realize that a Grumman Tiger that is
tuned well
and in good condition will blow the doors off an ARROW! Try one out
and then
decide if you really want to pay for the annuals for the retractable
every year.
I am not selling mine right now so this is not a promo, just a
suggestion to
compare. You might just be convinced.

Bill Oparowski
N10SX

[Darrel Toepfer]

wrote:

> Is it only me, or does anybody realize that a Grumman Tiger that is
> tuned well and in good condition will blow the doors off an ARROW!
> Try one out and then decide if you really want to pay for the
> annuals for the retractable every year.
> I am not selling mine right now so this is not a promo, just a
> suggestion to compare. You might just be convinced.

Or a Traveler that geaux's just alittle slower, for alot less money...

[kage]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> We got closer this time. We actually had our verbal offer accepted.

You might be moving too slow. Almost any good airplane that comes up for
sale at a good price is immediately snapped up.

Having the cash in hand at the right time is essential. Don't count on going
half way across the country to do a pre-by if you don't have the money in
your pocket.

Pre-bys are not always what they seem. There are horror stories abound. The
best deals are fast and usually from someone local with a good reputation.
Mostly these are never advertised.

What is really fun is to fly around to popular airports are "hangartalk"
about planes for sale there. There are hundreds of Arrows in California.
Take your time. Spending money is supposed to be fun. Once you see the right
deal, BAM! Take it. Move slow then move fast.

Karl,

PA-18
C-185
PA-18
BC-12D
M-20J
C-180
C-206
C-185 (my current hangar queen)
C-207
C-207

I practice what I preach.

[Jack Allison]

wrote:
> Is it only me, or does anybody realize that a Grumman Tiger that is
> tuned well
> and in good condition will blow the doors off an ARROW! Try one out
> and then
> decide if you really want to pay for the annuals for the retractable
> every year.
Thanks Bill but we're interested in a complex as two of us want to move
onto a commercial rating in the future. Thus, an Arrow nicely fits the
mission profile. Insurance is much more reasonable than on a higher
performance complex. If I was going to stop at an instrument rating,
sure, anything down and welded would be a good choice. I've heard nice
things about the Tiger and would love to fly one someday.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Wow, interesting story Jim. Sounds like you're "da man" to talk to re:
aviation sleuth work :-) At the moment, however, I'm way more inclined
to let the deal fall through when/if the owner gets squirly and or is
off his meds for a day. This experience was well worth it and I'm glad
I gave it one last shot within the conditions I had. Oh well, live and
learn. There are lots of Arrows out there, we just need to find the
right one.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Nathan Young wrote:

> From your post history, I believe you live in CA.

Yep, in the Sacramento area.

> Of course, I just checked aso.com, and they did not list a single
> Arrow in California or the W. Coast. - so maybe that's the problem,
> they have all migrated East :-)
I think a bunch of them must have been transplanted to the Carolinas.
I've lost count of how many I see in NC/SC. Something about going coast
to coast to buy a plane though. I'd love the return flight to bring the
bird home. Heck, I could knock out my instrument x-c flight.

We're looking here in CA and there are some but nothing worth
mentioning. Oh, sure there's an "airshow ready" Arrow in Auburn that we
made an offer on (that was the one that was flatly rejected, no counter
from the seller). The owner refuses to deal off his $73.5K asking price
so we said "see ya". So, we're 0 for 2 right now. No big deal, we'll
hit one out of the park sometime in the future.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:38:51 -0800, Jack Allison
> wrote:

>Nathan Young wrote:
>
>> From your post history, I believe you live in CA.
>
>Yep, in the Sacramento area.
>
>> Of course, I just checked aso.com, and they did not list a single
>> Arrow in California or the W. Coast. - so maybe that's the problem,
>> they have all migrated East :-)
>I think a bunch of them must have been transplanted to the Carolinas.
>I've lost count of how many I see in NC/SC. Something about going coast
>to coast to buy a plane though. I'd love the return flight to bring the
>bird home. Heck, I could knock out my instrument x-c flight.
>
>We're looking here in CA and there are some but nothing worth
>mentioning. Oh, sure there's an "airshow ready" Arrow in Auburn that we
>made an offer on (that was the one that was flatly rejected, no counter
>from the seller). The owner refuses to deal off his $73.5K asking price
>so we said "see ya". So, we're 0 for 2 right now. No big deal, we'll
>hit one out of the park sometime in the future.

As several other posters alluded - sometimes the best deals are local
ones that are not well advertised. Talk to the area mechanics and
network with other pilots. You may be surprised what you find...

Good luck in your search. As a side note, if you purchase the plane
a long distance from CA, please take caution on the return flight.
Mechanical failures are common after maintenance (ie the prebuy) and
especially so in this case as you do not know the entire history of
the plane. I would make several local area flights before setting off
on the long distance XC. I would fly as high as practical, and I
would not fly in IMC. Do not trust the book oil burn or fuel burn
numbers until you've put a lot of hours into the plane and know that
they are accurate.

One other prebuy item. Most A&Ps do not exercise the avionics for the
prebuy. They will focus on the airframe and powerplant. During your
test flights, take the time to track near and distant VORs, make sure
the indicator error is reasonable. If equipped with DME make sure it
can pick up near/distant stations. . Fly a practice ILS, and note
if the crossing heights at the OM are accurate. Verify the flags on
the OBS indicator are working. Make sure the market beacons operate
correctly.

-Nathan

[Jim Burns]

Something that you can and should do before going as far as arranging a
pre-buy or purchasing airline tickets is to get a title search and aircraft
records from AOPA. You can also get a CD from the FAA that has ownership
and 337 info. If it turns up something suspicious, you can always ask the
owner about it. It will also show a history of every recorded owner. You
can contact the previous owners to ask why they sold the plane. It will
show if the airplane has been located in a corrosion prone area which should
lead you to ask questions about corrosion prevention. All the form 337's
should also be included which may or may not point out damage or repair
history.

I was able to use information found in title searches to seek out several
A&P's that had worked on some of the planes we were interested in. I found
good and bad. I talked to one previous owner that wanted me to tell him
where the plane was because if I didn't buy it, he wanted to buy it back. I
also located one retired engine builder that, in his time, had a great
reputation of rebuilding engines. The plane they were on however hadn't
flown in 9 years. The engine builder basically told us to forget it. He
said the only way he'd touch it was if they were torn down and inspected.
Next.

Time spent going through all the records will pay huge dividends.

Jim

[Javier Henderson]

Jack Allison > writes:

> We're looking here in CA and there are some but nothing worth
> mentioning.

If you haven't already, mention to mechanics the kind of plane that
you're looking for. They are aware of owners who might be on the brink
of listing their plane, etc.

I found my current plane, a 1973 Cessna 182P, that way.

-jav

[[email protected]]

Jack Allison wrote:
>
> We're looking here in CA and there are some but nothing worth
> mentioning.
<snip>

The search for a good one can take a long time. My 1st plane took 3
months, and I found it by word of mouth. A friend at the aiport had
seen the guy put a "for sale" sign in the window and called me within
the hour. The second one I found sitting on a broker's ramp when I
went to go look at another plane. It had just arrived and had not yet
been advertised. I didn't go for the original plane, but snapped up
the new arrival before anyone else knew it was available.

Recently I've seen a fairly novel approach. Someone who was looking
for a good Cherokee 180 got the FAA owners list and sent postcards to
the owners. He also requested that if the recipient knew of anyone
that had a 180 for sale, to please pass on the contact info. I called
the guy because I knew of one for sale in a neighboring state. He'd
already found one, but shared his search method with me. To keep costs
down, he started off by sending cards to 180 owners in his home state.
Next he sent them to owners in states bordering his. The third mailing
expanded the search radius by one more state. He got lucky on the
third mailing.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Robert M. Gary]

I burned through several looking at Aeronca Champs. I finally decided
that there no longer exists any that meet the FAA's definition of
airworthy (AD's). So, I'm stuck with my Mooney. Not exactly the best
plane to do low and slow in. :(

-Robert

[Jim Burns]

> FAA owners list and sent postcards to
> the owners.

I did something similar. I downloaded the list, sorted it for the make,
model, model year, and engine, then sorted it by owners location.
Then I sorted it by owners name. I chose owners who's medicals had expired
and owners who had registered the plane more than 5 years ago. My thinking
was to find somebody who could no longer fly but who had owned the plane for
5 years or more.
I started calling owners in Wisconsin and Michigan that owned Aztecs.
My first 3 cold calls yielded 3 Aztecs and 2 Apaches who's owners had not
advertised the planes but were thinking of selling.
One Aztec turned up only 60 miles from home, 80 year old owner, lost his
medical, but the plane hadn't flown in 9 years.

Jim

[Jon Kraus]

Jack,

Why don't you guys go fly a Mooney and see what you think. It sounds
like it fits your mission profile and it would give you a bunch more
airplanes to look at? Just my prejudiced opinion. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

Jack Allison wrote:
> We got closer this time. We actually had our verbal offer accepted.
> That's progress (for this, the 2nd offer we've made on an Arrow).
>
> Things were going well into the weekend. I'd tweaked the prepurchase
> agreement from the seller, made plane reservations to fly out and
> see/fly/touch/smell the plane, setup the pre-buy inspection, provided a
> preliminary timeline to the seller...phew, lots of work.
>
> Sunday evening, I sent the modified prepurchase agreement to the seller
> along with a proposed timeline for the pre-buy. Monday evening...wham,
> the seller suddenly decides things are out of hand. I get a left hook
> to the chin e-mail, completely out of the blue with all sorts of
> concerns and a final suggestion that maybe it's better if everyone walks
> away from the deal. Whaaaaa...huh???? Houston, we have a problem.
>
> I called my partners and their opinion is pretty much "fine, we keep
> looking"...but...I'm not ready to walk just yet. I checked into the
> possibility of moving the pre-buy up a day and/or my travel out a day in
> order to make a better overall timeline. It's a no-go on both accounts
> so the only option is to stick with the original plans. By this point,
> I know it's a dead deal. It's just a matter of confirming that fact
> with the seller. The seller and I finally talk via phone and, as
> expected, we're done. Oh, he gives me a line "If you can rearrange your
> travel and the plane is still available, sure, call me back". Ya,
> whatever.
>
> Actually, I'm fine with everything. As many folks have advised me,
> you've got to be able to walk away if things go south or just don't feel
> right. Sure, it's frustrating to spend so much time only to walk away
> in the end but, really, given how things suddenly came unglued on this
> deal, I'd rather not buy this particular plane.
>
> Ah, this airplane buying stuff...it's a hoot! :-)
>

[nobody]

Jim,

If you really wanted to buy an Aztec from Central Texas, I would have
sold you mine! Still will. And I promise that you won't find that I'm
in trouble with the Feds or anybody connected with a bank. Although
my banker would like it better if I sold the Aztec and put the money in his
bank :-)

Don't both you and your partner each need your own Aztec? :-)

Ronnie

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> Either he doesn't want to sell or he got a higher offer since you made
> yours. This guy just doesn't sound straight up. Along those crooked
> lines,
> a quick story about our search...
>
> I found an Aztec that sounded perfect for us. It was in Central Texas but
> being sold by the Bank of Boston, in NY. Called the number for the
> seller,
> he could barely speak English and was not interested in talking to me. So
> I
> looked up the N number and called the registered owner in Texas. He was
> "in
> the shower" for 3 days, but his wife was rather pleasant. I did a net
> search for other family members and discovered his son was also a pilot,
> and
> in the same town. Called his son and he wouldn't talk about the plane, he
> just referred me to the Bank. So I'm thinking it was repossessed and
> these
> guys are broke and ****ed off at the bank.
>
> I dug further and found out that the son and father owned a bank
> themselves
> in Texas. I did a search on their bank and discovered that they as well
> as
> their wives had just been banned by the Feds from working at any bank due
> to
> misappropriation of bank funds. Seems they were using bank money to go on
> vacations allll over the country, then not paying the bank back!
>
> What appeared to be a great plane at a fair price quickly turned into a
> soap
> opera that we ran, not walked, away from.
>
> Jim
>
>

[Nathan Young]

On 9 Mar 2005 12:20:06 -0800, "
> wrote:

> Recently I've seen a fairly novel approach. Someone who was looking
>for a good Cherokee 180 got the FAA owners list and sent postcards to
>the owners. He also requested that if the recipient knew of anyone
>that had a 180 for sale, to please pass on the contact info. I called
>the guy because I knew of one for sale in a neighboring state. He'd
>already found one, but shared his search method with me. To keep costs
>down, he started off by sending cards to 180 owners in his home state.
>Next he sent them to owners in states bordering his. The third mailing
>expanded the search radius by one more state. He got lucky on the
>third mailing.


Interesting technique. I get a lot of similarly worded postcards from
brokers though, so I usually just pitch them.

[Jim Burns]

Hey Ronnie,
Thanks for the offer, but the one we have has us pretty well occupied.
A nice SuperCub or SuperCruiser might raise my interest as a second plane
though.
Jim

[Jack Allison]

Hmmm, this is getting interesting. Nice ideas Jim & John. I'm just now
downloading the database (after finally finding it on the FAA
website...took some searching). If anyone is interested, the database
is here: http://registry.faa.gov/ardata.asp According to Mozilla's
download manager, I have to wait another 10 minutes for it to finish.

I'm so tired of looking at TAP, ASO, Controller, etc. A little data
mangling exercise seems like a nice diversion. Many thanks and I'll
keep you guys posted.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Yeah, but better than going out there and deciding the plane isn't
> worth buying. I burned up one set of airline tickets heading out
> to Kalamazoo to look at a plane. Had to use a second set to go
> to Wisconsin to look at the one we bought.

That's pretty much what I figure too Ron. It cost us an extra $100 to
use the tickets I have and I've tied up a couple hundred bucks in
pre-buying my next flight. Could be much worse.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Sure Jon, bring your Mooney out to the left coast for a little demo
flight. Just think, you could get a ton of x-c flying in, enjoy our
nice weather, get some great mountain flying experience, etc. Hey,
works for me! :-)

Seriously though, we've toyed with looking at a few other planes but not
really seriously. For me, it's just easier to focus on a particular
plane. Did that when I was hunting down Cardinals and am doing the same
now with Arrows. Doesn't mean we won't explore other options though.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[[email protected]]

Nathan Young wrote:
>
> Interesting technique. I get a lot of similarly worded postcards
from
> brokers though, so I usually just pitch them.

So do I. The individual who sent the postcards must have realized
this too. In bold letters on the top of the card it said, "I am not a
Broker!". Then it went on to explain that he was an individual buyer
looking for a good airplane.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Michael]

> I burned through several looking at Aeronca Champs. I finally decided

> that there no longer exists any that meet the FAA's definition of
> airworthy (AD's).

There are plenty. They cost $25K-$35K.

Michael

[Robert M. Gary]

Rather than buying an Arrow, perhaps you'd want to look at a Mooney.
I've had both and like the Mooney better hands down. The Mooney has a
MUCH simpler gear system with less headaches. The cabin width is the
same. The cabin length is the same (both Mooney and Piper added an
extra 10 inches in the late 60's early 70's). If you compare Arrows to
Mooneys of the same year, the only difference is the Mooney is going 15
knots faster and can fly higher. You're flying behind the same O-360 or
IO-360 engine, same prop etc. The Mooney has a stronger airframe but
still usually gives you around 1000 lbs of useful load (don't talk
about full fuel, its not Mooney's fault that they can carry extra
fuel).
All the silly stories you hear about the Mooney turn out to be false.
They are not harder to fly. They are *NOT* harder for tall pilots (I'm
6'4" and actually think I have more leg room in the Mooney). The back
seat size is 100% the same (comparing same years). I've had 4 large
guys in my plane, and even sat in the back and its doable (although
tight). All in all the Mooney is just a bit better, kinda like a
Cherokee is a bit better than a 172. The Mooney can come down the ILS
at 737 speeds when necessary for busy airports too (I actually had to
slow for one once!!).

-Robert, CFI

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
" > wrote:


> So do I. The individual who sent the postcards must have realized
> this too. In bold letters on the top of the card it said, "I am not a
> Broker!". Then it went on to explain that he was an individual buyer
> looking for a good airplane.

given the bozos that claim "THIS IS NOT SPAM" on Usenet, it makes it hard to
believe the poor guy who really isn't a broker.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[[email protected]]

I know it's frustrating. It took us several months of "shopping" to find
our Arrow about 7 years ago. Turned out to be an excellent buy for us.

I might make a suggestion that could save you some grief. If you are
considering an airplane some distance from your home, pay a local mechanic
for an hour's time to just have a look at the plane and call you back with
an oral report. The idea is to screen out an obvious dog before you invest
time and money on a visit and formal pre-buy. We used this practice when
shopping for our Arrow, and it saved me from making two needless trips.

If the seller hesitates to allow a potential buyer's representative (the
mechanic) to inspect the plane, well, then you already have your answer.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[OtisWinslow]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:38:12 -0800, Jack Allison <
> > wrote:

>
> If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
> reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones. If a seller has a good plane you better make your decision
quick and follow through because often there's several buyers. I've sold
two planes in the last 5 years. Both were in great shape and low hours.
The first sold in a week. The buyers were great to work with. I didnt
ask for a down payment (never have). They had a local mechanic
do a prebuy .. came and got the plane and everything was cool.

The next was the buyer from Hell. I had several buyers lined up
prior to even deciding to sell based solely on a comment online
that I was contemplating a sale. (Very low time plane, fresh factory
reman, plane literaly like new.) I dealt with the buyers in the
order they contacted me. The guy brought a mechanic and
almost totally disassembled the plane. That's his choice. Played
games with me constantly. Had all the money and documentation
in escrow ready to pull the trigger .. and he was STILL jerking me
around trying to get the price reduced for this or that reason.
Two days after the closing was supposed to take place I finally
sent him an email that said he had two hours to close the deal
or the sale was off. He closed it immediately. Here I was trying to keep my
word with
him in spite of the fact that I had two other buyers that wanted
the plane immediately and would pay more, and he was playing
games with me.

If you have a good plane at a fair market price it WILL sell. My
advice for sellers is if you want to save a lot of grief .. don't deal with
inexperienced
buyers. They'll spare no effort in trying to get price reductions out
of you regardless of the condition of the plane. It's simply not
worth the stress. Deal with someone experienced and knowledgable about
aircraft values.

As a buyer .. if you're a new buyer then get some help from someone
who is knowledgable. Be prepared to pay what an aircraft of the
type your looking for is worth. Some savvy help will let you quickly
know if something is a good prospect or not. You're a lot better off
paying a little more for something that's in good shape and equiped
the way you want .. than buying a bargain and having to spend a
lot of money getting it up to snuff.

[Jack Allison]

Interesting experiences Otis. Thanks for posting.

> My
> advice for sellers is if you want to save a lot of grief .. don't deal with
> inexperienced
> buyers. They'll spare no effort in trying to get price reductions out
> of you regardless of the condition of the plane. It's simply not
> worth the stress. Deal with someone experienced and knowledgable about
> aircraft values.

I have to take some exception to a blanket statement here. Personally,
I'm an inexperienced buyer. There is airplane buying/selling experience
in our partnership but two of us have not bought a plane before. We're
not trying to reduce the price regardless of the condition. In this
last deal, we offered full asking price because it represented a fair
value for the plane.

>
> As a buyer .. if you're a new buyer then get some help from someone
> who is knowledgable. Be prepared to pay what an aircraft of the
> type your looking for is worth. Some savvy help will let you quickly
> know if something is a good prospect or not. You're a lot better off
> paying a little more for something that's in good shape and equiped
> the way you want .. than buying a bargain and having to spend a
> lot of money getting it up to snuff.

Definitely agree here. IMHO, our partnership falls into this camp.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Honeck]

>> If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
>> reason to let it go.
>
> Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
> and bad ones.

I have a somewhat unique perspective here, as I have met both the potential
buyer (Jack) and the seller. (Last week I flew to Wisconsin to lend a
casual eye to the bird for Jack.)

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

1. Jack is 1500 miles away
2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
3. Jack understandably wanted a pre-buy inspection conducted at a "neutral"
location.
4. The seller was understandably wary of letting his prized Arrow be
dismantled by an unknown shop, especially in light of #2, above.
5. The seller made personal contact with the "neutral" shop that made him
even more uncomfortable.
6. The seller started to ponder the awful possibility that (a) the "neutral"
shop could tear his plane apart and find something wrong, which would (b)
cause his erstwhile potential buyers -- located inconveniently on the other
side of the continent -- to withdraw from the deal and (c) potentially leave
him to pay the "neutral" shop for the work, if Jack and his partners turned
out to be nefarious cretins.

All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO, without
#2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and gone
through with the deal.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[OtisWinslow]

First off, my apoligies to Jack for any perceived offense about my
new buyer remark. Since he has experienced buyers involved as
partners it really doesn't apply to him and is simply based on my
experience.

Two of my previous sales were with buyers located far away. I simply
never let a plane I'm selling go somewhere else for the prebuy. That
eliminates the fear of the plane being taken apart and being held
hostage to an unscrupulous buyer controlled A/P. What I
do is make arrangements with my home shop to make available space
and any needed equipment (at my expense) in their shop. Then the
prebuy mechanic can come there and do the prebuy. And my
mechanic can deal with fixing anything they want fixed. I haven't had
any objections to this and it's worked well for all concerned.




"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:a6uYd.59212$r55.44222@attbi_s52...
>>> If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
>>> reason to let it go.
>>
>> Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
>> and bad ones.
>
> I have a somewhat unique perspective here, as I have met both the
> potential buyer (Jack) and the seller. (Last week I flew to Wisconsin to
> lend a casual eye to the bird for Jack.)
>
> In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
> circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:
>
> 1. Jack is 1500 miles away
> 2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
> 3. Jack understandably wanted a pre-buy inspection conducted at a
> "neutral" location.
> 4. The seller was understandably wary of letting his prized Arrow be
> dismantled by an unknown shop, especially in light of #2, above.
> 5. The seller made personal contact with the "neutral" shop that made him
> even more uncomfortable.
> 6. The seller started to ponder the awful possibility that (a) the
> "neutral" shop could tear his plane apart and find something wrong, which
> would (b) cause his erstwhile potential buyers -- located inconveniently
> on the other side of the continent -- to withdraw from the deal and (c)
> potentially leave him to pay the "neutral" shop for the work, if Jack and
> his partners turned out to be nefarious cretins.
>
> All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO,
> without #2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and
> gone through with the deal.
>
> But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
> it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[OtisWinslow]

I used to have a Tiger and also have a couple hundred hours
in Arrows. And a Tiger will not blow the doors off an Arrow. The
numbers are real close for both planes. In fact .. while considering
Arrows and Tigers .. I chose a Tiger. With the Tiger you have virtually
the same numbers without the maintenance of folding wheels and
constant speed prop. And they're WAY more fun to fly.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >Another Arrow deal gone south<
>
> Is it only me, or does anybody realize that a Grumman Tiger that is
> tuned well
> and in good condition will blow the doors off an ARROW! Try one out
> and then
> decide if you really want to pay for the annuals for the retractable
> every year.
> I am not selling mine right now so this is not a promo, just a
> suggestion to
> compare. You might just be convinced.
>
> Bill Oparowski
> N10SX
>

[Jack Allison]

OtisWinslow wrote:
> First off, my apoligies to Jack for any perceived offense about my
> new buyer remark. Since he has experienced buyers involved as
> partners it really doesn't apply to him and is simply based on my
> experience.

No sweat Otis, no offense taken. I freely admit that I'm a newbie
airplane buyer and, while I'm learning a ton, it's a first time
experience and I'm bound to miss some things. I'm thankful that our
partnership does have ownership experience though. I'm also grateful
for the advice received in my recent posts. Whether it's ideas like Jim
Burns and working with the FAA database to create leads or experiences
like yours, I learn some things and get some good advice.

>
> Two of my previous sales were with buyers located far away. I simply
> never let a plane I'm selling go somewhere else for the prebuy. That
> eliminates the fear of the plane being taken apart and being held
> hostage to an unscrupulous buyer controlled A/P. What I
> do is make arrangements with my home shop to make available space
> and any needed equipment (at my expense) in their shop. Then the
> prebuy mechanic can come there and do the prebuy. And my
> mechanic can deal with fixing anything they want fixed. I haven't had
> any objections to this and it's worked well for all concerned.

This is a great idea Otis. A nice compromise between buyer and seller.
Now, if I could just find an Arrow located a short hop away from my
home airport.

Jay - thanks for posting your experience here as your unique position in
this whole adventure does provide a good perspective.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Bob Noel]

In article <a6uYd.59212$r55.44222@attbi_s52>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
> circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:
>
> 2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
> 4. .... especially in light of #2, above.
> All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO, without
> #2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and gone
> through with the deal.

fwiw - it really bothers me that there being another potential buyer could have
been a major factor (I'm not saying it was in fact, all we have is Jay's
impression). Maybe it's just me, but if a seller takes a deposit and starts
the sell/buy process with a buyer, then other potential buyers should not
be a consideration.

> But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
> it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.

Agreed. For me, letting the airplane go somewhere else, especially if I
had a bad experience with the neutral shop, would like stop a deal.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Doug]

Hey, I'll tell you a story. Actually happened. Jack was running an FBO.
He maintained a Cessna 337 for a doctor. Doctor wants to sell and asks
Jack to sell it, Jack gets a comission. So a guy comes down from 800
miles away and checks the plane out, says yes I'll take it. Gives Jack
a $10K deposit with $120K to be paid upon delivery. Buyer flies home.
So Jack gets one of his instructors to deliver the plane, with
instructions to pick up the check and fly commercial back. So this
instructor flies the 337 to the buyers home field. Buyer gives him an
envelope with one of those glasseen windows in it with a Cashiers check
in it. Instructor flies back with the check. Jack takes the check out.
You know how when they issue a Cashiers check they give you a carbon
copy? Well, it's the carbon copy, not the check! So Jack figures honest
mistake and calls the buyer and says "we've got to talk about how you
are going to get us the check for the airplane". Buyer says, "No, what
we're going to talk about is how much I'm going to pay you for the
airplane".

There is an ending to this story.

[Scott]

I have been thinking about selling my pa28-235 for some time, but I dread
the process. I understand why a buyer inexperienced with the model would
want a prebuy inspection, and I respect that. But until I have a check in
my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such. Buyers
need to respect that.

Letting some unknown mechanic disassemble, poke and prod MY plane makes me
sick to my stomach. Every time things are disassembled/reassembled is a
chance for things to get scratched, broken, screws cross-threaded, and so
forth. Every time the plane is put in a mechanic's shop is a chance for
hangar rash. With advance apologies to the many good mechanics out there,
there are also a lot of inept ones and a few that are downright
unscrupulous. I'm not going to give one of them the chance to hold my plane
hostage at their field for a bogus squawk or something they broke.

Now is when several people will jump in with the refrain of "Ooooh, if he
won't let your mechanic do an off-field prebuy inspection, then he must be
hiding something!!! Run!!!" That's fine, please don't let the door hit
you in the *ss on your way out.

Obviously this will limit my pool of buyers, and it will take longer to
sell. The buyer will have to be someone who is experienced with pa28 and
knows what to look for. I'll be happy to remove the inspection panels and
take off the cowl, and he can come LOOK at it in MY hanger. If desired, he
can have a mechanic of his choice come and LOOK at it in my hangar. But
while the plane is still mine, it is not going to the buyer's shop or being
touched by the buyer's mechanic.

Once the plane belongs to the buyer, he can let anyone he wants do anything
he wants with it. Until then, keeping it airworthy and safe from damage is
my (and my mechanic's) job. Look but don't touch, and do it at my hangar.
A potential sale is not worth the risk of turning the plane over to a
mechanic I don't know and/or don't trust.

....Scott



>

[Jay Honeck]

> I have been thinking about selling my pa28-235 for some time, but I
dread
> the process. I understand why a buyer inexperienced with the model
would
> want a prebuy inspection, and I respect that. But until I have a
check in
> my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such.
Buyers
> need to respect that.

<Snip>

> I'll be happy to remove the inspection panels and
> take off the cowl, and he can come LOOK at it in MY hanger. If
desired, he
> can have a mechanic of his choice come and LOOK at it in my hangar.
But
> while the plane is still mine, it is not going to the buyer's shop or
being
> touched by the buyer's mechanic.

It's all a matter of degree. In Jack's case, the plane in question had
NOT complied with Service Bulletin 1006 (or at least I couldn't see it
in the logbooks) -- the "Big One" that addresses wing spar corrosion.
I'm assuming that Jack would have wisely required that this SB be
complied with, and the spar be checked, before or at the pre-buy.

This, of course, means removing the gas tanks -- a MAJOR operation on a
Cherokee -- pulling them forward and inspecting the spar. To comply
with the SB, you have to paint the spar with anti-corrosion goop, and
you might as well replace all the (probably original) fuel lines while
you're at it. None of this is cheap, and there is always the
opportunity to break, scratch or dent something in the process.

Was this the deal killer? Did the seller find someone dumb enough to
buy his plane *without* complying with this service bulletin? Dunno.
It's a major operation, and I wouldn't blame the seller for not wanting
to do it. On the other hand, any Cherokee that has sat outside for any
length of time -- and this one was parked on the ramp for a decade of
Illinois winters -- must comply with that SB, or (IMHO) it is a
completely unsellable aircraft.

So, Jack's search continues. Maybe you should sell him your 235, and
solve *everyone's* problems! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jack Allison]

FWIW, I'm not the Jack in this story. :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Javier Henderson]

"Doug" > writes:

> Hey, I'll tell you a story. Actually happened. Jack was running an FBO.
> He maintained a Cessna 337 for a doctor. Doctor wants to sell and asks
> Jack to sell it, Jack gets a comission. So a guy comes down from 800
> miles away and checks the plane out, says yes I'll take it. Gives Jack
> a $10K deposit with $120K to be paid upon delivery. Buyer flies home.
> So Jack gets one of his instructors to deliver the plane, with
> instructions to pick up the check and fly commercial back. So this
> instructor flies the 337 to the buyers home field. Buyer gives him an
> envelope with one of those glasseen windows in it with a Cashiers check
> in it. Instructor flies back with the check. Jack takes the check out.
> You know how when they issue a Cashiers check they give you a carbon
> copy? Well, it's the carbon copy, not the check! So Jack figures honest
> mistake and calls the buyer and says "we've got to talk about how you
> are going to get us the check for the airplane". Buyer says, "No, what
> we're going to talk about is how much I'm going to pay you for the
> airplane".
>
> There is an ending to this story.

What is it?

-jav

[Jack Allison]

> So, Jack's search continues. Maybe you should sell him your 235, and
> solve *everyone's* problems! :-)

Hmmm, you wanna be my representative again Jay? We could go double or
nothing on dinner/beer at Friar tucks :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Scott]

Agreed, if 1006 hasn't been done and the seller refused to pull the tanks
for a spar inspection, I'd walk away too. But as a seller, that still
doesn't mean taking the plane to someone else's shop or mechanic. Pulling
the tanks isn't that big a deal -- as long as your electric screwdriver
batteries don't go dea, and no screws are frozen.

On the other hand, if the existing owner hasn't had 1006 done after all this
time -- especially if it has EVER POSSIBLY been kept outside -- it would
make me look a lot more carefully at the plane to see what else might have
been ignored.

....Scott


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> > I have been thinking about selling my pa28-235 for some time, but I
> dread
> > the process. I understand why a buyer inexperienced with the model
> would
> > want a prebuy inspection, and I respect that. But until I have a
> check in
> > my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such.
> Buyers
> > need to respect that.
>
> <Snip>
>
> > I'll be happy to remove the inspection panels and
> > take off the cowl, and he can come LOOK at it in MY hanger. If
> desired, he
> > can have a mechanic of his choice come and LOOK at it in my hangar.
> But
> > while the plane is still mine, it is not going to the buyer's shop or
> being
> > touched by the buyer's mechanic.
>
> It's all a matter of degree. In Jack's case, the plane in question had
> NOT complied with Service Bulletin 1006 (or at least I couldn't see it
> in the logbooks) -- the "Big One" that addresses wing spar corrosion.
> I'm assuming that Jack would have wisely required that this SB be
> complied with, and the spar be checked, before or at the pre-buy.
>
> This, of course, means removing the gas tanks -- a MAJOR operation on a
> Cherokee -- pulling them forward and inspecting the spar. To comply
> with the SB, you have to paint the spar with anti-corrosion goop, and
> you might as well replace all the (probably original) fuel lines while
> you're at it. None of this is cheap, and there is always the
> opportunity to break, scratch or dent something in the process.
>
> Was this the deal killer? Did the seller find someone dumb enough to
> buy his plane *without* complying with this service bulletin? Dunno.
> It's a major operation, and I wouldn't blame the seller for not wanting
> to do it. On the other hand, any Cherokee that has sat outside for any
> length of time -- and this one was parked on the ramp for a decade of
> Illinois winters -- must comply with that SB, or (IMHO) it is a
> completely unsellable aircraft.
>
> So, Jack's search continues. Maybe you should sell him your 235, and
> solve *everyone's* problems! :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
> Hmmm, you wanna be my representative again Jay? We could go double or
> nothing on dinner/beer at Friar tucks :-)


Dinner too?

This just keeps getting better and better <g>


Montblack

[[email protected]]

> fwiw - it really bothers me that there being another potential buyer
could have
> been a major factor (I'm not saying it was in fact, all we have is
Jay's
> impression). Maybe it's just me, but if a seller takes a deposit and
starts
> the sell/buy process with a buyer, then other potential buyers should
not
> be a consideration.

You never know what other people are going to do. When my partners and
myself
were looking for a plane (which I still have), we followed up the ads
in the
LA Times one Saturday. The first plane wasn't what we were looking for,
so we continued on. As we were leaving a guy in a Cadillac showed up to
look at it.

The second plane was more like it - much newer, well equipped, and
reasonably
priced - Not that there weren't some maintenance questions to be
answered.
After we'd been there awhile and were discussing making an offer among
ourselves, the Cadillac guy shows up. Within no more than five minutes
and no more than
a few cursory glances over the plane, he's writing a check. Dunno if it
was
a deposit or full price - we walked away at that point.

David Johnson

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:
> Dinner too?
>
> This just keeps getting better and better <g>
>
>

Like I said before, Paul *who*? :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[OtisWinslow]

I think you're right on, Scott. My feelings exactly.


"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> But until I have a check in
> my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such.
> Buyers
> need to respect that.
>
> ...Scott
>
>
>
>>
>
>

[OtisWinslow]

No purchase contract? No escrow agent?

Somebody ain't too smart.



"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey, I'll tell you a story. Actually happened. Jack was running an FBO.
> He maintained a Cessna 337 for a doctor. Doctor wants to sell and asks
> Jack to sell it, Jack gets a comission. So a guy comes down from 800
> miles away and checks the plane out, says yes I'll take it. Gives Jack
> a $10K deposit with $120K to be paid upon delivery. Buyer flies home.
> So Jack gets one of his instructors to deliver the plane, with
> instructions to pick up the check and fly commercial back. So this
> instructor flies the 337 to the buyers home field. Buyer gives him an
> envelope with one of those glasseen windows in it with a Cashiers check
> in it. Instructor flies back with the check. Jack takes the check out.
> You know how when they issue a Cashiers check they give you a carbon
> copy? Well, it's the carbon copy, not the check! So Jack figures honest
> mistake and calls the buyer and says "we've got to talk about how you
> are going to get us the check for the airplane". Buyer says, "No, what
> we're going to talk about is how much I'm going to pay you for the
> airplane".
>
> There is an ending to this story.
>

[Doug]

They had a purchase contract. No escrow though. What happened, is the
doctor who owned the plane took the "check" to the president of the
local bank. He called the president of the purchasers bank, who said
"heh, heh, yes, I know that guy, He can't do that. We'll treat it like
a lost check and reissue you another one". So they got paid. And that's
the REST of the story.