Season Passes available from Soaring NV in Minden

[[email protected]]

https://soaringnv.com/

You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
• Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
VIP Annual Tow Pass
• The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

[2G]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 4:30:14 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> https://soaringnv.com/
>
> You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
> Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
> • Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
> VIP Annual Tow Pass
> • The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
> ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

Makes a motorglider sound better and better.

[JS[_5_]]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 7:59:37 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> Makes a motorglider sound better and better.

Which is pretty distressing.
Jim

[jfitch]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 4:30:14 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> https://soaringnv.com/
>
> You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
> Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
> • Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
> VIP Annual Tow Pass
> • The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
> ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

You can always check out Air Sailing just to the north or Soar Truckee just to the west.....

[John Foster]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 5:30:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> https://soaringnv.com/
>
> You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
> Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
> • Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
> VIP Annual Tow Pass
> • The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
> ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

Wow! You guys are expensive. $50 before you even get off the ground.

The club I fly at charges $25 for the first 1000ft , and $1 for every 100ft above that. So a 3000ft tow would cost you $45. You need to get your name on the calendar for the day, but the "reservation" is free.

[[email protected]]

I will be passing, and predict Air Sailing will be getting some new business.

As one of the pioneers of soaring out of Minden, it saddens me to see what has happened to one of the premier soaring sites of the world.

[[email protected]]

Interesting way to describe the situation.
Not sure, but would/could/should these words describe the same same offer?

Welcome the Minden, an amazing place to soar!

We offer a tow special with a zero hookup charge and $1.50 per 500 feet, if you can handle the ground stuff yourself and get off tow near the airport. If you'd like a remote start, we can also tow for $7.40/minute tow start to tow wheel stop.

If you need help moving moving your glider, hooking up, or wing running, we can provide one of our trained line helpers for $25. He'll also help with landing.

To better coordinate your tow, we run with a reservation system. Since it costs money to move the tow plane, we charge an additional $25 if you reserve and don't tow. Just let us know what you need and we can adjust given a reasonable notice.

If you fly here a lot, ask about our VIP/Christmas present plan...

[[email protected]]

Do the math. Doesn't look unreasonable to me. Remember, reservation fee goes toward cost of tow. We pay $50 for 2000 feet(non club).And that's east coast, flat land, no scenery. I wish I lived in NV! I'd jump on the season ticket deal. All those services included. Great for the crewless!

[[email protected]]

If a guy was going to put in a year of concentrated flying, going for some records or personal goals, the yearly price deal is not unreasonable, in facts its pretty good if one considers getting unlimited tow-backs to Minden.

But I remember a time when a guy got all the help staging and recovering from the operators there at Minden free, just part of the service. Along with that came free camping on the x’ed off runway, along with no tie down fees and no add-on fees of any kind. Along with no bull**** rules from multiple “soaring associations�. Incidentally, those were days that had 3 times the soaring activity there, than whats present today. I remember, even as a struggling college kid I could afford a weekend tow, and the Stowers bro’s would cut me a tow deal if I helped stage machines. I remember in the evenings, when Carl Herold would talk to me for hours about the days flight, freely giving a kid pointers on how to interpret and deal with great basin soaring over a bear next to his camper parked out on the line. I remember Marcel Goudinat teaching me all I needed to know about wave flying and not charging me $450 for the “mandatory check out�.

Back then it was not all about the money.

[MNLou]

Gents -

None of this is unreasonable. In order to stay in business, SoaringNV has to bring in revenue. This is a commercial operation not a club.

At the Nephi OLC camp, tows are $65 to 2000' agl and $100 to 3000'. Not a bitch about cost is heard.

The ASA Parowan Camp charges by the minute for tows and the total cost was much less than I expected it to be (thanks John!).

Perhaps we should be thanking Jim for coming up with some unique ideas to keep Minden a soaring destination.

Lou

[[email protected]]

Minden will always be a soaring destination even if I have to bring my own towplane up there. Seriously, there is absolutely no objection to a commercial op making money. I ran one myself and I priced such that I had an income. But to say paying $100 for a tow is reasonable and “no one complains�, is something of a self indictment. Maybe thats because at that rate of expense the only guys who are soaring are folks with money. Maybe thats why we see very very few young people entering the sport.
Take the Soar Minden price schema, a 3k tow is gonna be $90 minimum and thats if the tow pilot does’nt dottle getting back down. And add another $25 for someone to hook you up and run a wing. Now I am paying $115 minimum just to get up in the air. Anyone who tells me that is “reasonable� is someone who has plenty of expendable income, has’nt been in soaring for long, or is just an idiot. At these relative prices I will bringing a pawnee up to Minden this spring and charge 1/2 that and still make an acceptable profit.

I remember a time before there were any commercial operators at Minden, just a sometimes available Bellanca Scout, so we bought a C-180 and made tows available for the cost of gas plus a smidge just to help put Minden on the map and have company to fly with. I guess that level of comraderie and love of the pure sport does not exist anymore.

[jfitch]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 8:21:02 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Minden will always be a soaring destination even if I have to bring my own towplane up there. Seriously, there is absolutely no objection to a commercial op making money. I ran one myself and I priced such that I had an income. But to say paying $100 for a tow is reasonable and “no one complains�, is something of a self indictment. Maybe thats because at that rate of expense the only guys who are soaring are folks with money. Maybe thats why we see very very few young people entering the sport.
> Take the Soar Minden price schema, a 3k tow is gonna be $90 minimum and thats if the tow pilot does’nt dottle getting back down. And add another $25 for someone to hook you up and run a wing. Now I am paying $115 minimum just to get up in the air. Anyone who tells me that is “reasonable� is someone who has plenty of expendable income, has’nt been in soaring for long, or is just an idiot. At these relative prices I will bringing a pawnee up to Minden this spring and charge 1/2 that and still make an acceptable profit.
>
> I remember a time before there were any commercial operators at Minden, just a sometimes available Bellanca Scout, so we bought a C-180 and made tows available for the cost of gas plus a smidge just to help put Minden on the map and have company to fly with. I guess that level of comraderie and love of the pure sport does not exist anymore.

To keep things in perspective: if you buy a lift ticket at the window in Squaw Valley or Northstar, a 1 day ticket is $179 this season. On the other hand a launch for my ASH26Mi costs about $2 in 100LL (but ignores the $50K capital expense). At Truckee, the minimum tow is to 2000 AGL by agreement with the tower, costs $68. Line staff is free but they do appreciate a tip now and then. Retrieves are $205/hr tach time. If Minden bills $7.40/min during a retrieve, that's $444/hr. My IP attorney charges $750/hr and he doesn't even own an airplane.

When I learned to fly in Calistoga, a tow to 1500 AGL was $2.50, and $1/1000 above. Even then, my brother and I used to do dual tows (two 1-26 behind a Supercub) to save money.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Foster wrote on 12/12/2019 10:43 PM:
>> Reservations can be made via â—¦ Reservations can be
>> made via phone: 775-782-9595 â—¦ Reservations can be rescheduled with
>> sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following
>> benefits at no additional cost: â—¦ Unlimited tows â—¦ Unlimited oxygen fills â—¦
>> Unlimited land out retrievals â—¦ Line service â—¦ Wave Camp tickets We aim to
>> make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and
>> encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when
>> you’re soaring stress-free.
> Wow! You guys are expensive. $50 before you even get off the ground.
>
> The club I fly at charges $25 for the first 1000ft , and $1 for every 100ft
> above that. So a 3000ft tow would cost you $45. You need to get your name on
> the calendar for the day, but the "reservation" is free.

Clubs generally cost less in dollars and more in personal time. Soaring NV sounds
like a good deal for pilots that don't have lots of spare time, or live too far
from one to use a club. I use to be part owner of a club's towplane, and it was an
expensive, time-consuming effort to keep it ready, to dig up the tow pilots to fly
it, and have enough members to keep the tow costs reasonable.

You are fortunate to live where you can easily get low cost tows, but don't knock
the Minden operation without a better understanding of the situation there.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

Does the tow reservation specify a time or just that the pilot wants to
fly that day?Â* I recall at Driggs having to make a reservation during a
30 minute block of the day and, of course, the best blocks were used by
their tourist ride operation.Â* But the reservation was free.

On 12/13/2019 4:02 AM, wrote:
> I will be passing, and predict Air Sailing will be getting some new business.
>
> As one of the pioneers of soaring out of Minden, it saddens me to see what has happened to one of the premier soaring sites of the world.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Heck, I'd /_move_/ to Minden for $1.50/500' tows and trade my Stemme for
a '31!

On 12/13/2019 6:22 AM, wrote:
> Interesting way to describe the situation.
> Not sure, but would/could/should these words describe the same same offer?
>
> Welcome the Minden, an amazing place to soar!
>
> We offer a tow special with a zero hookup charge and $1.50 per 500 feet, if you can handle the ground stuff yourself and get off tow near the airport. If you'd like a remote start, we can also tow for $7.40/minute tow start to tow wheel stop.
>
> If you need help moving moving your glider, hooking up, or wing running, we can provide one of our trained line helpers for $25. He'll also help with landing.
>
> To better coordinate your tow, we run with a reservation system. Since it costs money to move the tow plane, we charge an additional $25 if you reserve and don't tow. Just let us know what you need and we can adjust given a reasonable notice.
>
> If you fly here a lot, ask about our VIP/Christmas present plan...

--
Dan, 5J

[Bob Youngblood]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 7:30:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> https://soaringnv.com/
>
> You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
> Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
> • Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
> VIP Annual Tow Pass
> • The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
> ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

We must be doing something wrong, our tows are 35 bucks to 2000, no reservation needed. Annual dues 360 bucks, not reservation fee, free help in assembly, beverages are usually free, including beer at the end of the day. No charge for fighter pilot special hot dogs on Saturday and Sunday. Assembled glider in hangar 125 bucks a month, with no charge for outdoor trailer parking. No 15 hour Wonders needed or wanted. Treasure Coast Soaring Club, Vero Beach, Florida. Bob

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Bob Youngblood wrote on 12/13/2019 12:57 PM:

>> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.
>
> We must be doing something wrong, our tows are 35 bucks to 2000, no reservation needed. Annual dues 360 bucks, not reservation fee, free help in assembly, beverages are usually free, including beer at the end of the day. No charge for fighter pilot special hot dogs on Saturday and Sunday. Assembled glider in hangar 125 bucks a month, with no charge for outdoor trailer parking. No 15 hour Wonders needed or wanted. Treasure Coast Soaring Club, Vero Beach, Florida. Bob
>
Are members required to do any work, or can they just show up, fly, eat, drink and
go home? How about week day tows - available?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 7:30:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> https://soaringnv.com/
>
> You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
> Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
> • Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
> VIP Annual Tow Pass
> • The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
> ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

I would say this is very nice service, especially for folks who go to Nevada from far and away and do not have ground crew. I would be very happy with such service. I can get towed to the flightline, get hooked up and towed for $115. How much hiring a crew cost? Much more, anyway. I would be glad to use the service.

[[email protected]]

I am not associated with Soaring NV other than as a customer. My post was meant to inform pilots who may be coming to Minden to fly next season, or move here. Last year Soaring NV only had one towplane resulting in significant launch delays. Next season they will have 3 towplanes. I don't know who Uneekc is but local pilots would welcome your towplane too if you are serious.
I have been considering a JS2 SL, but I will purchase the season pass, fly twice as much, get free aero retrieves and more, for 10 years at much less than the price of a self launcher engine. But SL's are great too!
Thanks to all of the folks who posted a positive message. Merry Christmas to all!
Jim Lee

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 6:20:07 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Bob Youngblood wrote on 12/13/2019 12:57 PM:
>
> >> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.
> >
> > We must be doing something wrong, our tows are 35 bucks to 2000, no reservation needed. Annual dues 360 bucks, not reservation fee, free help in assembly, beverages are usually free, including beer at the end of the day. No charge for fighter pilot special hot dogs on Saturday and Sunday. Assembled glider in hangar 125 bucks a month, with no charge for outdoor trailer parking. No 15 hour Wonders needed or wanted. Treasure Coast Soaring Club, Vero Beach, Florida. Bob
> >
> Are members required to do any work, or can they just show up, fly, eat, drink and
> go home? How about week day tows - available?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Just eat drink, and enjoy. Bring beer for the cooler if you like.

[[email protected]]

Hi Jim
Don’t get me wrong, thanks for posting the info, and as I previously mentioned, for the guy who is gonna do a concentrated year of Minden xc flying that yearly deal IS a good one with the inclusion of the unlimited tow-homes. Its only the individual tow charges and the $25 ground help fee that are problematic to me. I think a better business model would be to provide unlimited ground help if needed at no charge and a standard rate for tows, teaching their tow pilots how to tow and get down with maximum efficiency. Thats where money is made and lossed.
My rants about the “good-ole-days� at Minden are just that, namely reminicence of days and attitudes long gone, at least as far as Minden is concerned. It changed from being a friendly/free relatively inexpensive place to fly into a restrictive rich man only playground many years back, long before the present commercial operators came to the scene. I was just hoping things would begin to chance back to more like it used to be, but I just don’t see that happening.
As for this next year, I will be going a much different route for great basin flying. I will be coming up there to fly out of various other locations using 2,000 ft of spectra for auto tows. There are dry lake/dirt road areas I know of which provide good high auto tow capability in locations more advantageous for early starts on long xc flights of low performance machines.

[[email protected]]

Namely, trying to break the present 1-26 straight out record. A flight of over 435 miles is needed.

[[email protected]]

>I will be coming up there to fly out of various other locations using 2,000 ft of spectra for auto tows.

Be sure to try a GoPro on each end of the tow rope. Should make some great out back videos.

[[email protected]]

Stu, I’m flying a 1-26, and attempting to go far which with my handicap in performance means having to average over 50mph, I can’t have any extra drag! lol

[Colten Coughlin]

agreed very expensive. my club (sunflower) charges $10 for every 1k. really cheap but makes that look really expensive.

[[email protected]]

Colten are you going to fly in the 1-26 championships this coming summer at Sunflower? It would be a great experience and you have some good coaching you can get from Tony, although he is used to flying that higher performance bird (cherokee) lol.
Dan

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

I've got to say there's some real daydreamers on this thread with their head buried way deep in the sand.
I've operated a tow plane in Telluride Colorado.
I've paid the bills.
Capital costs.
Insurance.
Fuel.
Maintenance and inspections.
New tires.
General repairs.
Airport and tie down fees.
New engine when the old one got a oil leak and seized up.
Scheduled tow pilots.
Bought tow ropes and rings.
Etc
Etc
Etc
That $3750 early buy in price is a screaming deal if you ask me!
Include O2 fills and retrieves.
That is cheap! and its good for A Whole Year!
If I lived near Minden or planned on being there for any length of time I'd send in my check today with a big Thank You note attached.
Its SOO hard for a commercial operation to just break even much less take on the legal liability on top of No Money at the end of the year, we stopped doing it.
God Bless Soar Minden I say.

[Craig Reinholt]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 8:30:53 AM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> I've got to say there's some real daydreamers on this thread with their head buried way deep in the sand.
> I've operated a tow plane in Telluride Colorado.
> I've paid the bills.
> Capital costs.
> Insurance.
> Fuel.
> Maintenance and inspections.
> New tires.
> General repairs.
> Airport and tie down fees.
> New engine when the old one got a oil leak and seized up.
> Scheduled tow pilots.
> Bought tow ropes and rings.
> Etc
> Etc
> Etc
> That $3750 early buy in price is a screaming deal if you ask me!
> Include O2 fills and retrieves.
> That is cheap! and its good for A Whole Year!
> If I lived near Minden or planned on being there for any length of time I'd send in my check today with a big Thank You note attached.
> Its SOO hard for a commercial operation to just break even much less take on the legal liability on top of No Money at the end of the year, we stopped doing it.
> God Bless Soar Minden I say.

I agree with Nick. Just my 2 cents worth.
My suggestion for those that want club glider costs (volunteer - FREE - staff) at Minden should give it a go.
However, since Minden is a regional full service airport with expensive hangar space and a ½ mile haul to runway 30 launch area, you might want to remember what a commercial operation has to add. Said spendy hangar / office lease (you aren’t working out of a tent off the dirt road), paid CFIG’s / ride pilots, tow pilots, line boys, receptionist, accounting, along with advertising, soaring merchandise inventory, and insurance just to name a few items. And lest we forget, the operational folks get paid (reasonable living wages) for being on site whether a soaring pilot (or ride) shows up or not. Anybody that has worked a commercial operation knows how bad the number of “no shows� are. There are methods to reduce this number, but they don’t go to zero. Those wonderful no show “individuals� not only don’t pay for their reserved services, but block another pilot from that scheduled time slot. The operation loses.
But go ahead. Start your club operation, find unpaid staff that will be there 5-7 days per week, 9 am to dark, from early spring to late fall.
Good luck with that.

[3C]

Unlimited line service, O2 fills, tows & retrieves for $3750?Sounds like a great deal for a crew-less pilot like me. Might have to make an extended visit to Minden next season.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 5:30:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> https://soaringnv.com/
>
> You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
> Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
> • Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
> VIP Annual Tow Pass
> • The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
> ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
> We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

Want to Talk about the decline in Soaring?
Lets just look in my neighbor hood, Western Colorado, Utah, NV for instance..

Durango Soaring: Closed permanently
Salida Soaring: Closed Permanently
Hotchkiss Soaring: No Ops last year; looks like it over.
Telluride Soaring: Closed permanently

How about Parowan: No based tow plane- I hear this years ASA meet is going to be it, over. Got that from Dave Norwood, Paroair; Closed. no O2 nothing.

ElY NV? No based towplane anymore.

The common thread? All Commercial operations. As Charlie Romeo stated, good luck with getting a volunteer club up and running these days, Volunteers? Ferrgit about it. At the end of Telluride Soaring I couldn't get a towpilot at any price.
Its a sad situation and the SSA has put thousands of man hours in trying to change the decline, but at this point, AFAIK, No Joy. I have no suggestions.
Merry Christmas
Safe flying to all in 2020

[[email protected]]

Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only maintain but grow.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
> Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
> sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
> completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
> flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But
> they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
> maintain but grow.
>
I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

True Eric, and I do not believe motor gliders are the problem, they’re, as you said, just the natural reaction for guys who want to fly when n where they want.

Man I do know the feeling of being the only guy around to do the towing on a good day and doing-my-duty watching the gang head out on good flights lol..

I would absolutely love to have a mini lak but I just can not pull the trigger on that kind of an expense, and I am addicted to playing this low performance one-class type racing/flying. Its interesting to note that we are seeing a bunch of guys jumping into this type of flying again, similar to me, leaving the high dollar-high performance side to jump into the fun and level non machine based competition that is 1-26 flying. Its even driving up the prices on these little birds.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:28:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Colten are you going to fly in the 1-26 championships this coming summer at Sunflower? It would be a great experience and you have some good coaching you can get from Tony, although he is used to flying that higher performance bird (cherokee) lol.
> Dan

Colton, you fly and Eileen and I will pay for all your tows. Bob

[John Foster]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
> > Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
> > sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
> > completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
> > flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations.. But
> > they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
> > maintain but grow.
> >
> I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
> Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
> workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
> but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
> up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
> you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
> aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.
>
> As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. What
> happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
> still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
> dwindled, and here we are.
>
> I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
> more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
> miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
> had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
> and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
> makes poor or unpredictable days usable.
>
> Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
> weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I partnered once with two other guys in a sailboat. It was not a perfect solution. I was often sitting on land when I wanted/could have been out sailing. I eventually bought them out. Yes, it was a good introduction, but it comes with a whole lot of considerations, including the personalities and cordiality of the other members in the group.

As we all know, the population of glider pilots is slowly "aging out". Why? Well, things ain't as affordable as they once were, for one. With the prices of these new high-performance machines about the same as a small house, there's no wonder why. What normal average working person coming out of college with a mountain of educational debt, or someone who just started a family can afford that? How many families now have to have two earners just to make ends meet? How many young people are getting into soaring now? At these prices, you could only do it if you come from a family with "money". Gone are the days when you could go to the airport and wash planes to pay for flying lessons. That economy is long gone.

Go ahead--keep thinking that your operation is "worth it". It may well be. But this is the very thing that is contributing to dwindling numbers in our sport. The lower the numbers of participants, the harder it is to find volunteers, and the more of a burden it puts on those that do step up to offer their services for free. I'll do my own ground handling, by myself if needed, to save $25.

We need to grow the sport from the bottom. We need to get kids back in the air. We need to show them that this is something that CAN be done on next to nothing. Be cause it can be done, if we decide to set it up that way. But it will take a significant commitment from those with the ability, to build the momentum to critical mass. One way to cut costs is to use ground launches--auto tows, reverse auto tows, winch launches (if you can set out the capital for a decent winch). That will SIGNIFICANTLY cut the cost of soaring. And if you have a lot of folks in in the club, there's bound to be more people hanging out around the club that can help with the ground handling. I'm sorry, but this topic is dear to my heart. My personal situation is that I've come from "nothing", and while I do have some limited means now, I still cringe at the prices charged by some operations, to the point I will take my business elsewhere. If we want to keep the sport alive and prevent it from dying, we need to start doing things differently.

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 8:59:47 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
> > > Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
> > > sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
> > > completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
> > > flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But
> > > they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
> > > maintain but grow.
> > >
> > I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
> > Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
> > workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
> > but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
> > up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
> > you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
> > aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.
> >
> > As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden.. What
> > happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
> > still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
> > dwindled, and here we are.
> >
> > I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
> > more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
> > miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
> > had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
> > and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
> > makes poor or unpredictable days usable.
> >
> > Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
> > weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance..
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> I partnered once with two other guys in a sailboat. It was not a perfect solution. I was often sitting on land when I wanted/could have been out sailing. I eventually bought them out. Yes, it was a good introduction, but it comes with a whole lot of considerations, including the personalities and cordiality of the other members in the group.
>
> As we all know, the population of glider pilots is slowly "aging out". Why? Well, things ain't as affordable as they once were, for one. With the prices of these new high-performance machines about the same as a small house, there's no wonder why. What normal average working person coming out of college with a mountain of educational debt, or someone who just started a family can afford that? How many families now have to have two earners just to make ends meet? How many young people are getting into soaring now? At these prices, you could only do it if you come from a family with "money". Gone are the days when you could go to the airport and wash planes to pay for flying lessons. That economy is long gone.
>
> Go ahead--keep thinking that your operation is "worth it". It may well be. But this is the very thing that is contributing to dwindling numbers in our sport. The lower the numbers of participants, the harder it is to find volunteers, and the more of a burden it puts on those that do step up to offer their services for free. I'll do my own ground handling, by myself if needed, to save $25.
>
> We need to grow the sport from the bottom. We need to get kids back in the air. We need to show them that this is something that CAN be done on next to nothing. Be cause it can be done, if we decide to set it up that way.. But it will take a significant commitment from those with the ability, to build the momentum to critical mass. One way to cut costs is to use ground launches--auto tows, reverse auto tows, winch launches (if you can set out the capital for a decent winch). That will SIGNIFICANTLY cut the cost of soaring. And if you have a lot of folks in in the club, there's bound to be more people hanging out around the club that can help with the ground handling. I'm sorry, but this topic is dear to my heart. My personal situation is that I've come from "nothing", and while I do have some limited means now, I still cringe at the prices charged by some operations, to the point I will take my business elsewhere. If we want to keep the sport alive and prevent it from dying, we need to start doing things differently.

No question that a syndicate can significantly reduce costs. Just having one partner will cut your costs in half. If you get a two-place, even your tow charges are half. I, too, started out with more time than money, and appreciate the cost barriers to flying. Kids can start out by virtually flying using Condor flight simulator. Costs about $100 with a joystick. And you can fly anywhere in the world. Clubs are still the most viable option to keeping costs down. Blaming high costs for declining participation is just a convenient whipping boy. Rounds of golf played per year are dropping, too - and you can play a round for less than the cost of a tow (some places for $10-$20).

Tom

[Craig Reinholt]

Please remember this thread was about costs associated with flying at Minden, Nevada. Minden is a world class destination soaring site. Pilots from around the world travel to Minden for spectacular flying. Think Bitterwasser, Omarama (or other fantastic facilities throughout the world). Without proper service and equipment, Minden can’t compete with those other destination sites. They are not catering to novice pilots like your local club does. Check out what it costs to fly at either of the above mentioned locations. You could easily budget nearly $1000 / day for flying. Put in context, Minden’s fees are reasonable. If it keeps the business there afloat, we should all be grateful for the opportunity it give us to fly there someday.

[John Foster]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:57:41 AM UTC-7, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> Please remember this thread was about costs associated with flying at Minden, Nevada. Minden is a world class destination soaring site. Pilots from around the world travel to Minden for spectacular flying. Think Bitterwasser, Omarama (or other fantastic facilities throughout the world). Without proper service and equipment, Minden can’t compete with those other destination sites. They are not catering to novice pilots like your local club does. Check out what it costs to fly at either of the above mentioned locations. You could easily budget nearly $1000 / day for flying. Put in context, Minden’s fees are reasonable. If it keeps the business there afloat, we should all be grateful for the opportunity it give us to fly there someday.

Fair enough.

[[email protected]]

Craig, you do make a valid point. But there is something else to consider. Having been someone who lived in Minden for over 20 years, I can tell you Minden soaring does not have a lock on great soaring. It is not a “magical place� where diamonds are free and theres a 10k thermal every mile down the course. In fact, there are many other north american soaring sites just as spectacular. Minden is something of a pain to fly out of nowadays. When it was a small sleepy forgotten place, yes it was a glider pilots shangrala, with light traffic, free camping, great camraderie, and affordable services. Not so now.

Right up the road there is Air Sailing, great place to fly out of, there is Truckee, also a great place to stage flights from. Both offer what Minden does with fair pricing. My point is not to knock the Minden commercial operator, I wish them all the best. My point is just because its “Minden� does not grant it any more of an exalted place in soaring hierarchy, or soaring pricing. I can name a few other places which are just as exalted such as Moriarty, Marfa, Ridge Soaring. These are also “halloed� places in the halls of spectacular historic soaring sites which all do not feel the need for exalted pricing and/or add on pricing. If guys want to spend $1000/day at other places, and those soaring sites can “convince� them its justified, great, let capitalism reign. But a savvy soarer will gravitate toward financially friendlier climes. Others will find alternative means of achieving the same goal. I took to auto towing off of rabbit dry lake when I did’nt have the cash for a tow. Then worked my way upwind into the Minden primary wave to get my diamond. I did not need PASCO or Soar Minden, for that matter. There are few folks nowadays that are as resourceful as I was back in the day, but I grew up under the shadow of “The Boy Who Flew With Condors� era where soaring was LIFE, and a lifestyle. Nowadays, sad to say, many folks will be convinced that they just can’t afford the sport anymore and move on to other pursuits that give them more pleasure per dollar. Its this “convincing� of folks that it takes big money to have big fun in soaring that is the real tragedy.

[[email protected]]

I think Craig makes an excellent point. In fact, the whole thread seems to mix commercial and club operations, and these are apples and oranges in my opinion. I've been a member of a club for quite some time, and I've also worked at a commercial glider operation. They've both got good and bad points, but I don't think you can compare the fee structures. The club environment is usually all-volunteer, and the glider FBO is ostensibly a business. For instance, I'll instruct at my club this morning. We will have two tow pilots for the day, me, and more than one line crew. I'm happy to do it, it's how I learned and it's a great deal of fun. We are a non-profit club running two towplanes and 6 or 7 gliders. Add that up when you have to pay for the labor and the equation rapidly changes. Do I think this is good or desirable or healthy for soaring (or GA) in the long run? Not really, but the reality seems to be that we are in the age of $200,000+ gliders (and Carbon Cubs). Hey, I love 1-26s, we have one at our club that gets a good workout. Personally, I fly an older Standard class ship which fits into my performance/budget situation. As far as Minden goes - and I've spent time there in the last five years - the conditions that made it a soaring Mecca are still there. Truckee and Air Sailing are fine spots as well, but I know some pilots who choose to fly out of Minden instead. Whatever fits your situation, and it's good to have choices. However, to the original point - commercial glider FBOs and soaring clubs are not the same thing and I think there's been a lot of mixing of the two in the thread discussion.

Mike

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:57:41 PM UTC-8, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> Please remember this thread was about costs associated with flying at Minden, Nevada. Minden is a world class destination soaring site. Pilots from around the world travel to Minden for spectacular flying. Think Bitterwasser, Omarama (or other fantastic facilities throughout the world). Without proper service and equipment, Minden can’t compete with those other destination sites. They are not catering to novice pilots like your local club does. Check out what it costs to fly at either of the above mentioned locations. You could easily budget nearly $1000 / day for flying. Put in context, Minden’s fees are reasonable. If it keeps the business there afloat, we should all be grateful for the opportunity it give us to fly there someday.

And if they aren't, a competitor will see an opportunity and come in with better prices and services. Hooray for Capitalism!

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Just to add a bit to what Eric said:Â* I've had two successful
partnerships in gliders which allowed me to fly way more glider than I
could afford.Â* Choose your partner wisely and put everything in
writing.Â* I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

On 12/14/2019 1:51 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
>> Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of
>> self launch
>> sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club
>> participation/formation, its
>> completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some
>> clubs are
>> flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring
>> locations. But
>> they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
>> maintain but grow.
>>
> I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not
> the cause.
> Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as
> officials,
> workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for
> various reasons,
> but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to
> tow everyone
> up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot
> to launch
> you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly
> because you
> aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.
>
> As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at
> Minden. What
> happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or
> there would
> still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the
> replacements
> dwindled, and here we are.
>
> I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of
> pilots, if
> more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent
> Electro and
> miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low
> cost if you
> had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability
> to fly when
> and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available
> because the motor
> makes poor or unpredictable days usable.
>
> Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and
> suitable
> weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

There is so much I would like to say but.... keeping it simple, or trying.

You stated that they need to teach their tow pilots how to tow and how to return with maximum efficiency, or something to that effect.

There are maybe 6 tow pilots that tow at Minden (and with the exception of the FNG, whose tow numbers, I have no idea about), the low time person has over 3000 tows with the highest said to be in excess of 12,000. Now, I realize everyone can learn something from everyone, but even you have to admit you have some pretty experienced folks on the other end of that rope. If you know a better way, please let us know. I know we are all happy to learn something new and want to provide the best service we can.

“And that’s all I have to say about that�. Respectfully (and thanks, Forrest Gump)

[[email protected]]

Forest Gump, I like that line. You might need to reread my post. I am in no way denegrading the quality of any operations tow pilots. My point was, since the price schema is the time from launch to tow plane landing means that if a guy happens to get a tow pilot who loligages his way back down you end up paying alot more for a tow than if you have an efficient tow pilot who has worked contests etc.

A better pricing, if you were gonna charge per minute would be time from launch to release. That would be a fairer way..... says the guy with over 8,000 hours taildragger and over 4,000 tows.... lol

[[email protected]]

it sounds simple, to ask the towpilot to punch a stopwatch, but there are often more urgent demands on the attention of the towpilot. I regret that sometimes I've realised that I forgot to press the button, with a consequent loss of accurate timing. I fix this by guesswork.

[Stephen Struthers]

At 07:24 20 December 2019, wrote:
>it sounds simple, to ask the towpilot to punch a stopwatch, but there
are
>o=
>ften more urgent demands on the attention of the towpilot. I regret
that
>so=
>metimes I've realised that I forgot to press the button, with a
consequent
>=
>loss of accurate timing. I fix this by guesswork.
>
>

Not sure if this works over your side of pond but I use this for recording

my log - you do need to have flarm fitted and working

https://ktrax.kisstech.ch/logbook/?
id=FESHIEBRIDGE&tz=0&day=2019-12-
01&units=metric&shorthand=true&showtype=true&fstatus=all&ftype=a
ll&disp=cs&showcrew=true

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

> Not sure if this works over your side of pond but I use this for recording
>
> my log - you do need to have flarm fitted and working
>
> https://ktrax.kisstech.ch/logbook/?
> id=FESHIEBRIDGE&tz=0&day=2019-12-
> 01&units=metric&shorthand=true&showtype=true&fstatus=all&ftype=a
> ll&disp=cs&showcrew=true

@Stephen Struthers - you would also need OGN receiver coverage to use KTrax.

[[email protected]]

As a backup to pen & paper tow altitudes or time spent, you can stick a small flight recorder in the cockpit. At the end of the day, the IGC files can be viewed to fill in any gaps or verify recorded info.

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

Yes, long gone are the days when people like AL McD, Coop, High Pockets Al, Tom, Geoff, Mountain Mike etc. etc. "ruled" the runways in Minden and the comradery was epic. High Country Soaring was the place to be and HCS started the Ely camps. Magical times, fond memories.

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

I am grateful that enterprising individuals have taken up the mantle of providing soaring services at Minden. It's a treasure of a soaring location. Certainly it's not the only good place to fly in the area, the western US, or the world, but one I'm glad to have continued access to Minden as it presents its own unique benefits.

I remain somewhat perplexed at the tendency of glider pilots to whine about relatively small differences in tow costs - particularly at commercial operations that don't run on free labor. I'd be shocked if these operations are making more than very low tens of dollars per hour per person once you account for fuel, maintenance, cost of the tied up capital, etc. Certainly nobody has joined the 1% towing gliders into the sky.

If $10-20 per tow is more important to you than the freedom to avoid pulling duty and pay club dues, by all means join or form a club and put in the hours and work to save yourself a couple hundred bucks per season, but surely it serves no useful purpose to criticize folks who serve the community while trying to scratch out a living.

The flat-rate offer is an interesting innovation. Hopefully it encourages a few folks with the time and motivation to do a lot of flying out of Minden and build up the baseload demand for tows.

Thanks Soaring NV!

Andy Blackburn
9B

[[email protected]]

Yes Pasi, it was a magical place. Much of the problem today is the vast amount of posters here have never experienced what Minden used to be like. They are the new style of flier who’s entire perspective is a narcisistic one. They rail against clubs and simply want to come out, get their tow, do their independent thing and leave. They have never tasted of the type of camraderie we had even from a commercial operation like High Country Soaring. When HCS was operated there was another commercial operator there. We always gravitated to Tom and Bills op not due to cheaper prices but due to their attitude and their dedication to detail in helping us out when we needed it. Yes at times we just came out and did our own thing, but all the californians who flew out of there regularly, and the locals, with the exception of a few california snobs, looked out for each other, helped each other with their rigging, retrieves, and their knowledge of the area. I just wish other fliers could experience what we did.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

"You can please some people most of the time, you WON'T please everyone every time..."..I believe someone famous stated that....

I have flown out of our airport for over 50 years, some was one commercial operator (7 days a week), another commercial operator (weekends and long holiday weekends) as well as the current club....weekends/long weekends only.....possible exceptions....
Agreed....atmosphere may trump (no political comment.....so don't comment) prices to a point. Flying conditions and access to good soaring may be even better.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 3:45:30 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Yes Pasi, it was a magical place. Much of the problem today is the vast amount of posters here have never experienced what Minden used to be like. They are the new style of flier who’s entire perspective is a narcisistic one. They rail against clubs and simply want to come out, get their tow, do their independent thing and leave. They have never tasted of the type of camraderie we had even from a commercial operation like High Country Soaring. When HCS was operated there was another commercial operator there. We always gravitated to Tom and Bills op not due to cheaper prices but due to their attitude and their dedication to detail in helping us out when we needed it. Yes at times we just came out and did our own thing, but all the californians who flew out of there regularly, and the locals, with the exception of a few california snobs, looked out for each other, helped each other with their rigging, retrieves, and their knowledge of the area. I just wish other fliers could experience what we did.

We are all part of a community. But it takes an effort to actually contribute to the community. I have been guilty of showing up at my local glider port, driving by the maintenance/shop and people working there going right to the trailers. Helping a fellow private owner assemble and him I. Pushing out to the flight line taking a tow being hooked up and wing run by young line boys whom are in the sun all day. How many times does anyone tip a line boy or even exchange pleasantries? Do you ever speak to the line boys and find out about their dreams? How many times do you stop by the shop, not to take time with idle chit chat, but just to check in on how they are and what is happening at the shop? Do you have to phone numbers for the line boys or shop personal. I have not always been so aware of what it takes to make the life of a private own go smoothly. It takes employees and capital investment. The FBO's provide a tow service and it really is a SERVICE to be grateful for. The FBO makes their money not from the private owner...

[Joel Flamenbaum[_2_]]

My $0.02 on the Minden post - At the ripe young age of 76 (who'd a thunk it?)I had an "opportunity" to get back into the sport that I truly loved. I bought a used LS3a that had been completely refinished by JJ. It sparkled. Yes the times have changed much to my chagrin. It took several weeks to get the new registration (previous owner let it lapse) and I needed this to get insurance coverage. Not wanting the time to go to waste - I spent days tweaking minor things with the trailer and panel. Really anxious to fly it - rude awakening -seeking help with the rigging - found out that almost all the glider pilots at least at Minden have gone to "power" -- show up uncover ignite engine, taxi and take off. My once strong body just could not handle the rigging and derigging. -After asking several pilots to help me and being refused, the one pilot on field that day was none other than Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane who came to my rescue after seeing me land and attempting to take the wings off. Surely they had more important things to attend to BUT without hesitation they offered advice and man (and woman) power to help out.
Now for Minden - yes those were the "good old days" - Remember Hod "expose yourself to soaring" - fast forward to NOW - I have experienced the hired hands at NV Soaring - I got free advice, free help including towing me out to the launch area and bringing me back to derig. Yes the tow cost $$ but it was money well spent. Tim Gardner was my checkout pilot which I needed after so many years being a non pilot. Tim (Perlan pilot) was superb - yes those check rides cost many $$$ but I learned much more than money could buy.
If you whiners that can afford $200,000, $300,000 or more for your glider think about what Minden and NV Soaring has to offer. Its money well spent to keep the sport alive. "Ain't nothing FREE anymore.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:20:25 AM UTC-8, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> My $0.02 on the Minden post - At the ripe young age of 76 (who'd a thunk it?)I had an "opportunity" to get back into the sport that I truly loved. I bought a used LS3a that had been completely refinished by JJ. It sparkled. Yes the times have changed much to my chagrin. It took several weeks to get the new registration (previous owner let it lapse) and I needed this to get insurance coverage. Not wanting the time to go to waste - I spent days tweaking minor things with the trailer and panel. Really anxious to fly it - rude awakening -seeking help with the rigging - found out that almost all the glider pilots at least at Minden have gone to "power" -- show up uncover ignite engine, taxi and take off. My once strong body just could not handle the rigging and derigging. -After asking several pilots to help me and being refused, the one pilot on field that day was none other than Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane who came to my rescue after seeing me land and attempting to take the wings off. Surely they had more important things to attend to BUT without hesitation they offered advice and man (and woman) power to help out.
> Now for Minden - yes those were the "good old days" - Remember Hod "expose yourself to soaring" - fast forward to NOW - I have experienced the hired hands at NV Soaring - I got free advice, free help including towing me out to the launch area and bringing me back to derig. Yes the tow cost $$ but it was money well spent. Tim Gardner was my checkout pilot which I needed after so many years being a non pilot. Tim (Perlan pilot) was superb - yes those check rides cost many $$$ but I learned much more than money could buy..
> If you whiners that can afford $200,000, $300,000 or more for your glider think about what Minden and NV Soaring has to offer. Its money well spent to keep the sport alive. "Ain't nothing FREE anymore.

I might say that Truckee is an outstanding place to fly from. Really friendly people, in a beautiful place.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 11:20:25 AM UTC-5, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> ... Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane

That's **Jackie Payne** (Jacqueline Payne)!! Unless I've missed something...

[Joel Flamenbaum[_2_]]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 10:09:15 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 11:20:25 AM UTC-5, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> > ... Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane
>
> That's **Jackie Payne** (Jacqueline Payne)!! Unless I've missed something...

I'm old and feeble - lucky I can tie my shoes -- you are absolutely correct it is (was) Jackie

[Joel Flamenbaum[_2_]]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:20:25 AM UTC-8, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> My $0.02 on the Minden post - At the ripe young age of 76 (who'd a thunk it?)I had an "opportunity" to get back into the sport that I truly loved. I bought a used LS3a that had been completely refinished by JJ. It sparkled. Yes the times have changed much to my chagrin. It took several weeks to get the new registration (previous owner let it lapse) and I needed this to get insurance coverage. Not wanting the time to go to waste - I spent days tweaking minor things with the trailer and panel. Really anxious to fly it - rude awakening -seeking help with the rigging - found out that almost all the glider pilots at least at Minden have gone to "power" -- show up uncover ignite engine, taxi and take off. My once strong body just could not handle the rigging and derigging. -After asking several pilots to help me and being refused, the one pilot on field that day was none other than Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane who came to my rescue after seeing me land and attempting to take the wings off. Surely they had more important things to attend to BUT without hesitation they offered advice and man (and woman) power to help out.
> Now for Minden - yes those were the "good old days" - Remember Hod "expose yourself to soaring" - fast forward to NOW - I have experienced the hired hands at NV Soaring - I got free advice, free help including towing me out to the launch area and bringing me back to derig. Yes the tow cost $$ but it was money well spent. Tim Gardner was my checkout pilot which I needed after so many years being a non pilot. Tim (Perlan pilot) was superb - yes those check rides cost many $$$ but I learned much more than money could buy..
> If you whiners that can afford $200,000, $300,000 or more for your glider think about what Minden and NV Soaring has to offer. Its money well spent to keep the sport alive. "Ain't nothing FREE anymore.

Yes it is (was) Jackie Payne - arthritic fingers on Keyboard

[2G]

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 10:53:05 AM UTC-8, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:20:25 AM UTC-8, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> > My $0.02 on the Minden post - At the ripe young age of 76 (who'd a thunk it?)I had an "opportunity" to get back into the sport that I truly loved. I bought a used LS3a that had been completely refinished by JJ. It sparkled. Yes the times have changed much to my chagrin. It took several weeks to get the new registration (previous owner let it lapse) and I needed this to get insurance coverage. Not wanting the time to go to waste - I spent days tweaking minor things with the trailer and panel. Really anxious to fly it - rude awakening -seeking help with the rigging - found out that almost all the glider pilots at least at Minden have gone to "power" -- show up uncover ignite engine, taxi and take off. My once strong body just could not handle the rigging and derigging. -After asking several pilots to help me and being refused, the one pilot on field that day was none other than Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane who came to my rescue after seeing me land and attempting to take the wings off. Surely they had more important things to attend to BUT without hesitation they offered advice and man (and woman) power to help out.
> > Now for Minden - yes those were the "good old days" - Remember Hod "expose yourself to soaring" - fast forward to NOW - I have experienced the hired hands at NV Soaring - I got free advice, free help including towing me out to the launch area and bringing me back to derig. Yes the tow cost $$ but it was money well spent. Tim Gardner was my checkout pilot which I needed after so many years being a non pilot. Tim (Perlan pilot) was superb - yes those check rides cost many $$$ but I learned much more than money could buy.
> > If you whiners that can afford $200,000, $300,000 or more for your glider think about what Minden and NV Soaring has to offer. Its money well spent to keep the sport alive. "Ain't nothing FREE anymore.
>
> Yes it is (was) Jackie Payne - arthritic fingers on Keyboard

Joel,

Invest in a one-man rigging dolly - you will never regret it. Also, you can get a "license" to drive your vehicle across the runways to the staging area. You will need to invest in a tow-out gear, but you probably have that already, a flag, handheld radio, an emergency beacon and pass a test (https://www.mindentahoeairport.com/access-waiver).

Tom

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

Dan?

what did you fly back in the day in Minden?

.............................
Yes Pasi, it was a magical place. Much of the problem today is the vast amount of posters here have never experienced what Minden used to be like. They are the new style of flier who’s entire perspective is a narcisistic one. They rail against clubs and simply want to come out, get their tow, do their independent thing and leave. They have never tasted of the type of camraderie we had even from a commercial operation like High Country Soaring. When HCS was operated there was another commercial operator there. We always gravitated to Tom and Bills op not due to cheaper prices but due to their attitude and their dedication to detail in helping us out when we needed it. Yes at times we just came out and did our own thing, but all the californians who flew out of there regularly, and the locals, with the exception of a few california snobs, looked out for each other, helped each other with their rigging, retrieves, and their knowledge of the area. I just wish other fliers could experience what we did.

[[email protected]]

My bro had a zuni then an A model ventus. I was a kid and flew the red-white-blue Pilatus that we eventualy put on lease back with HCS.

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

The Pilatus was before my time. Never saw one there.

[Dan Marotta]

Joel,

Didn't we meet at the new Black Forest back in the 90s?Â* I was partners
with Walt Lafford.

Dan

On 12/22/2019 11:49 AM, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 10:09:15 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 11:20:25 AM UTC-5, Joel Flamenbaum wrote:
>>> ... Jim Payne and his lovely wife Jane
>> That's **Jackie Payne** (Jacqueline Payne)!! Unless I've missed something...
> I'm old and feeble - lucky I can tie my shoes -- you are absolutely correct it is (was) Jackie

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

1976 thru the early 80’s