new owner questions

[kmuller909]

Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..

1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
to sign the log. True?

2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
something I just leave to the local avionics guy?

3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?

Thanks for any help.

[Jon Kraus]

For # 2 why don't you have the VOR recalibrated? I think all that is
involved is adjusting a pot behind one of the screw holes. Of course you
need an avionics shop to do it but it doesn't take long.

I might be wrong but I think you do need signoffs for #'s 1 and 3.

Good luck... Maybe Allen Lieberman will pipe in about his Sundowner.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

kmuller909 wrote:
> Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
> Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..
>
> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?
>
> 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
> KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
> indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
> something I just leave to the local avionics guy?
>
> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>

[George Patterson]

kmuller909 wrote:
>
> Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
> Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..
>
> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?

Yep. You'd also better check with that A&P -- some FSDOs require a 337 and a
field inspection. When I installed mine, I made prior arrangements with my
avionics tech. He inspected and signed off the work and made the final
connections to the NAV/COM.

> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?

Yep. This is not considered preventative maintenance. Shouldn't need a 337 --
the repair is not major and it's not a modification.

George Patterson
Drink up, Socrates -- it's all-natural.

[Dave Butler]

kmuller909 wrote:
> Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
> Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..
>
> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?

Yes.

>
> 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
> KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
> indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
> something I just leave to the local avionics guy?

Don't know. You sure it's not the KX-170B that's off?

>
> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?

Yes.

>
> Thanks for any help.

You're welcome.

[kmuller909]

I was assuming it's the indicator because the 203/208 and 204/209
series have the internal reveivers, unlike some of the others that
require a separate receiver.
I was leaning towards replacing the old indicator with a KI203 so it
would match my newer Ki 204 which is the same thing with glide slope.
These have the moving bar instead of the pivoting needle.
The units have a bunch of pins in the back. I was curious if the
change over amounts to pulling out the old indicator and pushing in the
new one until the pins seat.

[Jay Masino]

George Patterson > wrote:
>> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?
>
> Yep. This is not considered preventative maintenance. Shouldn't need a 337 --
> the repair is not major and it's not a modification.

I assume he's talking about the large rubber seal at the wing root of a
Cherokee. Personally, I'd consider that in the same catagory as other
non-structural fairings that owners are allowed to remove/replace.

--- Jay


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[A Lieberman]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:37:42 GMT, Jon Kraus wrote:

> Good luck... Maybe Allen Lieberman will pipe in about his Sundowner.

Now Jon, what in the world would make you think I would pipe in *big
smile*.

Kmuller,

Welcome to the beech baby family. I love my 1976 Sundowner. I
affectionately call mine a Slowdowner as it won't get you there fast, but
it will get you there comfortable!

If you have not done so, be sure to get some CFI time with you in your
Sundowner. Landing a Sundowner is not like landing a Cessna! Speed is
your enemy on landing.

In regards to your questions:

> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?

I would think yes, you need an avionics A&P signoff. There sure is lots of
wires that come in and out of that intercom system.

> 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
> KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
> indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
> something I just leave to the local avionics guy?

Unless you are really sure the Nav 1 and 2 are so out of wack to replace,
why not get them calibrated by your avionics guy. To be quite honest, I
personally would not buy anything from Ebay where my hide's safety in the
clag is concerned. When I upgrade my avionics in my Sundowner, it will
come new with a warranty.

> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?

I would think an A&P would be needed for this operation.

In my humble opinion, when it comes to repairs in my plane, I will not
cheap out.

A good quality A&P - $50.00 an hour where I live.
My hide - priceless.

Allen

[Carl Orton]

You'll also possibly need new weight & balance calculations done on the
audio panel install (depends).


"kmuller909" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
> Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..
>
> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?
>
> 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
> KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
> indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
> something I just leave to the local avionics guy?
>
> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
> Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..

Welcome to the wonderful world of aircraft ownership.

Rule #1: There are NO dumb questions here, because almost everything about
owning an aircraft is counterintuitive. Up is down, black is white, and the
FAA is here to help. ;-)

> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?

True. Although a previous owner of my plane got around that (sort of) by
using two sheet metal screws to attach a portable intercom to the underside
lip of the panel. (That went out in the trash within a month, in favor of
the panel-mount PS Engineering Intercom/CD player. Which I highly
recommend, BTW.)

> 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
> KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
> indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
> something I just leave to the local avionics guy?

Are you planning on flying IFR with this aircraft? Do you REALLY want to
slide down an "Ebay Glideslope" in the clag? Some things just cost money,
man; let the avionics shop have a whack at this one.

> 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?

If you mean that black rubber thingy at the wing root, no. If you mean some
sort of a speed fairing wing root seal, yes.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Rapoport]

"kmuller909" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Forgive me if these are dumb questions, but as a new owner - '75
> Sundowner, I'm learning as I go here..
>
> 1. If I install a panel mount intercom myself, I need an A&P to agree
> to sign the log. True?
>
> 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy a
> KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the old
> indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is this
> something I just leave to the local avionics guy?
>


The indicators are not pin compatible. Have you tried swappping the radios
to see if the problem is there?

Mike
MU-2

[Michael]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > 2. My nav indicators are a King KI-204 with glideslope and an old
> > KI-201 or something that is like 30 deg off (2 KX170b's). If I buy
a
> > KI203 on Ebay to match the 204, is it as simple as popping out the
old
> > indicator and pushing in the new one.. will the pins match? Or is
this
> > something I just leave to the local avionics guy?
>
> Are you planning on flying IFR with this aircraft? Do you REALLY
want to
> slide down an "Ebay Glideslope" in the clag? Some things just cost
money,
> man; let the avionics shop have a whack at this one.

In aviation, things are often counterintuitive. I've generally had
much better luck with buying stuff off ebay and installing it myself
rather than allowing an avionics shop to have a 'whack' at my airplane.

Unfortunately, the units are not pin compatible.

My advice - first swap the KX-170B's to make sure it's the indicator,
not the radio. Then, once you know it's the KI-201 or KX-170B, watch
Ebay for a good deal on whichever one you need. I find it's usually
more cost-effective to do that than repair an old piece of avionics,
and besides whenever the monkeys at the avionics shop work on a plane,
they break something. Better to do it yourself, and all it takes is an
A&P logbook entry. That's if anyone notices - you are, after all,
replacing identical parts...

> > 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?
> If you mean that black rubber thingy at the wing root, no. If you
mean some
> sort of a speed fairing wing root seal, yes.

Actually, either one would be a non-structural fairing or cowling, so
either way no signoff needed.

Michael

[Jay Masino]

Michael > wrote:
>> If you mean that black rubber thingy at the wing root, no. If you
> mean some
>> sort of a speed fairing wing root seal, yes.
>
> Actually, either one would be a non-structural fairing or cowling, so
> either way no signoff needed.

The speed mod fairing (like the Knots2U one) requires an STC and 337, so
it's a not the same as removing/replacing an existing OEM fairing.

--- Jay


--
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http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
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http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Blanche]

Michael > wrote:
>> > 3. If I replace the wing root seal, do I need an A&P signoff?
>> If you mean that black rubber thingy at the wing root, no. If you
>mean some
>> sort of a speed fairing wing root seal, yes.
>
>Actually, either one would be a non-structural fairing or cowling, so
>either way no signoff needed.

But remember, the wing root seal was originally installed BEFORE the
wing was attached!

[Michael]

Blanche wrote:
> >Actually, either one would be a non-structural fairing or cowling,
so
> >either way no signoff needed.
>
> But remember, the wing root seal was originally installed BEFORE the
> wing was attached!

Are you sure? In any case, I've never seen anyone pull the wing off to
replace the wing root seal. The deteriorated seal is pulled out, and
the new seal is pushed in, at least on every Piper product I've ever
seen. That's clearly a preventive maintenance operation, since the
seals are non-structural and the removal and replacement requires no
complex aseembly/disassembly operation.

Michael

[Michael]

> The speed mod fairing (like the Knots2U one) requires an STC and 337,
so
> it's a not the same as removing/replacing an existing OEM fairing.

Actually, only the original installation requires a 337, because a
major alteration takes place. After that removing and reinstalling the
same fairing is preventive maintenance.

There is actually logic to this (pretty rare for the FAA) - the
original installation requires a change to type design. It may require
new fasteners, changes to the mounting points, whatever. It makes
sense that it's not something an untrained person should do. But once
the original installation is done, taking it off and putting it back on
is no big deal.

In general - you would be surprised at how much the owner can legally
do, provided he follows the proper procedures.

Michael

[Blanche]

Michael > wrote:
>Blanche wrote:
>> >Actually, either one would be a non-structural fairing or cowling,
>so
>> >either way no signoff needed.
>>
>> But remember, the wing root seal was originally installed BEFORE the
>> wing was attached!
>
>Are you sure? In any case, I've never seen anyone pull the wing off to
>replace the wing root seal. The deteriorated seal is pulled out, and
>the new seal is pushed in, at least on every Piper product I've ever
>seen. That's clearly a preventive maintenance operation, since the
>seals are non-structural and the removal and replacement requires no
>complex aseembly/disassembly operation.

At the factory, at the initial installation of the root seal, it's
attached to one side (I forget which, probably the wing) before the
wing is attached to the body. That's why it's so d*** difficulty to
get a new one installed by yourself!

[Jay Masino]

Michael > wrote:
>> The speed mod fairing (like the Knots2U one) requires an STC and 337,
> so
>> it's a not the same as removing/replacing an existing OEM fairing.
>
> Actually, only the original installation requires a 337, because a
> major alteration takes place. After that removing and reinstalling the
> same fairing is preventive maintenance.

That's what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

--- Jay



--
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Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
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http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Jay Masino]

Blanche > wrote:
>>Are you sure? In any case, I've never seen anyone pull the wing off to
>>replace the wing root seal. The deteriorated seal is pulled out, and
>>the new seal is pushed in, at least on every Piper product I've ever
>>seen. That's clearly a preventive maintenance operation, since the
>>seals are non-structural and the removal and replacement requires no
>>complex aseembly/disassembly operation.
>
> At the factory, at the initial installation of the root seal, it's
> attached to one side (I forget which, probably the wing) before the
> wing is attached to the body. That's why it's so d*** difficulty to
> get a new one installed by yourself!

This doesn't make sense, to me. The "bulb" part of the seal squeezes into
the crack between the body and the wing. That's what holds it in
place. It wouldn't stay in place, when the wing was detached from the
body.

--- Jay


--
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Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
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[Blanche]

Jay Masino > wrote:

[snip]

>This doesn't make sense, to me. The "bulb" part of the seal squeezes into
>the crack between the body and the wing. That's what holds it in
>place. It wouldn't stay in place, when the wing was detached from the
>body.

Jay -- have you replaced the wing root seal? I agree the bulb is
what holds it in place. And trying to replace it (which can be
done, go back and read the r.a.o archives) is really awkward,
difficult and frustrating.

[[email protected]]

On 30-Mar-2005, (Jay Masino) wrote:

> This doesn't make sense, to me. The "bulb" part of the seal squeezes into
> the crack between the body and the wing. That's what holds it in
> place. It wouldn't stay in place, when the wing was detached from the
> body.


I have no specific knowledge of how they do it at the factory, but I find it
hard to believe that they don't position the rubber seal before attaching
the wing. Any number of low-tack adhesives could be used to keep the seal
in place before mating.

That doesn't mean that the airplane is not designed to allow the seal to be
replaced (with much greater difficulty) without removing the wing.

I am sure that there are any number of such cases in the manufacture of
cars. For example, the exhaust manifold is most likely installed on a car's
engine before the engine is installed on the assembly line. But I would
hope that your mechanic can remove and replace the manifold without taking
the engine out of your car.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Michael]

> have you replaced the wing root seal?

I've replaced the wing root seal on a Comanche (which uses the same
seal as a Cherokee) and it was not particularly difficult or
frustrating. Of course it is possible (indeed likely) that I was not
the first person doing this, and thus the difficult frustrating part
was done by my predecessor.

Michael

[RST Engineering]

Haven't worked on many Jaguars, have you?

Jim


.. But I would
> hope that your mechanic can remove and replace the manifold without taking
> the engine out of your car.

[Michael]

Jaguars are one example. Certain models of Porsche have dual oil
filters - and one of them can be changed only after removing a fender.
And I know I've seen a car where replacing the spark plugs requires the
engine to be pulled.

Of course with airplanes it's worse. Ever try to change out a prop
governor on an M20-F Mooney without pulling the engine off the mounts?
I don't believe it can be done.

Michael

[Montblack]

(e.drucker wrote)
> I am sure that there are any number of such cases in the manufacture of
> cars. For example, the exhaust manifold is most likely installed on a
> car's
> engine before the engine is installed on the assembly line. But I would
> hope that your mechanic can remove and replace the manifold without taking
> the engine out of your car.


Camaro/Firebirds:
GM (eventually) had a square stamped on the inside wall of the passenger
fender so you knew precisely where to torch - heater core popped right out
once an "easy access" hole was cut.

It was back in the early 80's last time I did this (friend's shop). Yikes. I
think it was the Camaro with the stamped fender?

Yikes, I think it was the heater core and not the blower?

OK. I got nothing.


Montblack

[Jay Masino]

Blanche > wrote:
> Jay -- have you replaced the wing root seal? I agree the bulb is
> what holds it in place. And trying to replace it (which can be
> done, go back and read the r.a.o archives) is really awkward,
> difficult and frustrating.

Yes, I've replaced mine.

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