DME recommendations

[mindenpilot]

Let me start by admitting my ignorance about DME's.
In my plane I have to KX-170Bs, one indicator has GS.
I also have an ADF.
I have no DME, and I've never used one.
I've started studying for my instrument written test.
I've noticed that a large number of approaches would either be more
difficult or not possible without one.
So, I've been researching getting one.
I don't need anything fancy, so I've been looking at older ones.

Here's my question...
Some DMEs seem to have an indicator, and then a separate receiver box, like
the ARC 800 DME.
Others I've seen just seem to be an in-panel job, like the Narco DME 190 or
the King KN62A.
I've seen some on Ebay, and wanted to make sure that the Narco 190/ King
KN62A don't require an additional recieving unit, like the ARC 800.
That is, if I were to purchase a yellow-tagged Narco 190 (and tray and
connectors), would that be all I need? Antenna?

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[jsmith]

Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
Purchase a good used IFR GPS.

mindenpilot wrote:
> Some DMEs seem to have an indicator, and then a separate receiver box, like
> the ARC 800 DME.
> Others I've seen just seem to be an in-panel job, like the Narco DME 190 or
> the King KN62A.
> I've seen some on Ebay, and wanted to make sure that the Narco 190/ King
> KN62A don't require an additional recieving unit, like the ARC 800.
> That is, if I were to purchase a yellow-tagged Narco 190 (and tray and
> connectors), would that be all I need? Antenna?

[Dude]

"jsmith" > wrote in message
...
> Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
> Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
>

What he said!

I am presently looking to replace my RNAV/DME with a new GPS. By the time
you buy and install a used DME system you will be getting pretty close to a
used IFR GPS.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Dude" > wrote:

> "jsmith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
> > Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
> >
>
> What he said!
>
> I am presently looking to replace my RNAV/DME with a new GPS. By the time
> you buy and install a used DME system you will be getting pretty close to a
> used IFR GPS.

What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can do
with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly an
ILS-DME (because you don't have the location of the ILS DME ground station
in the GPS database). Unless you have some very specific reason to need
DME for one of the very few things GPS can't replace it for, I think it
would be foolish to invest in DME these days.

[mindenpilot]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dude" > wrote:
>
>> "jsmith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
>> > Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
>> >
>>
>> What he said!
>>
>> I am presently looking to replace my RNAV/DME with a new GPS. By the
>> time
>> you buy and install a used DME system you will be getting pretty close to
>> a
>> used IFR GPS.
>
> What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can
> do
> with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly
> an
> ILS-DME (because you don't have the location of the ILS DME ground station
> in the GPS database). Unless you have some very specific reason to need
> DME for one of the very few things GPS can't replace it for, I think it
> would be foolish to invest in DME these days.

I think I'm sold on the GPS idea.
Do you think it is safe to say that an airport that has an ILS-DME approach
also has a GPS one?

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Roy Smith]

"mindenpilot" > wrote:
> Do you think it is safe to say that an airport that has an ILS-DME approach
> also has a GPS one?

GPS approaches are getting more and more common. My guess is it would be
pretty rare to find any airport with an ILS that didn't also have some sort
of GPS approach. If you have some specific airports you plan on visiting a
lot, check out specifically what approaches they have.

You might even discover that the DME fixes on the ILS have GPS waypoints
superimposed. For example, the ILS or LOC/DME 17 into (MHT
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00246ILD17.PDF)

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:04:21 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> "Dude" > wrote:
>
>> "jsmith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
>> > Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
>> >
>>
>> What he said!
>>
>> I am presently looking to replace my RNAV/DME with a new GPS. By the time
>> you buy and install a used DME system you will be getting pretty close to a
>> used IFR GPS.
>
>What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can do
>with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly an
>ILS-DME (because you don't have the location of the ILS DME ground station
>in the GPS database).

FWIW, the KLN94 has the I-xxx stations in the database for doing DME
to ILS stations.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Peter Clark > wrote:

> >What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can do
> >with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly an
> >ILS-DME (because you don't have the location of the ILS DME ground station
> >in the GPS database).
>
> FWIW, the KLN94 has the I-xxx stations in the database for doing DME
> to ILS stations.

Cool, I didn't know that. I wonder why those fixes were dropped from the
databases of more modern units? It seems like such an obvious and useful
thing to have them in there.

[Scott Skylane]

Roy Smith wrote:


> Cool, I didn't know that. I wonder why those fixes were dropped from the
> databases of more modern units? It seems like such an obvious and useful
> thing to have them in there.

The GX-50/55/60 has most, but not all, of the localizer fixes in it's
database. I could never figure out their logic of leaving some out, though.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[Doug]

The only argument for a DME is if you have an IFR GPS, there are
requirements for being able to fly your alternate with no GPS, so a DME
allows you to fly VOR/DME approaches as well as ILS's requireing DME
with your GPS out.

[BTIZ]

> What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can
> do
> with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly
> an
> ILS-DME (because you don't have the location of the ILS DME ground station
> in the GPS database). Unless you have some very specific reason to need
> DME for one of the very few things GPS can't replace it for, I think it
> would be foolish to invest in DME these days.

Roy, you corrected yourself in a later post.
If I understand it correctly
ILS-DME approaches if loaded into the IFR GPS can be flown with the GPS, How
else could the new DA40-180 and Garmin G1000 do it? Waypoints loaded into
the ILS course provide the "distance to" information needed for an ILS-DME
approach.

Review AC90-94 and the AIM on IFR GPS in lieu of DME

As a side note, our local FBO got a "new" BE33 on the lease back rental
line, DME is broke.. the owner (Private Pilot) did not know what it was..
and did not know what "DME" was. The local radio shop told him he'd spend as
much trying to figure out what was wrong as to replace it. The owner decided
not to repair it, just placard it INOP. So, he just took away all of his IFR
rentals.

BT

[John Clonts]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The only argument for a DME is if you have an IFR GPS, there are
> requirements for being able to fly your alternate with no GPS, so a DME
> allows you to fly VOR/DME approaches as well as ILS's requireing DME
> with your GPS out.
>

I think you need to distinguish between the requirements for CHOOSING the alternate, and the requirements to
actually FLY the alternate. Having an IFR GPS but no DME unit affects the former, but not the latter.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Newps]

Doug wrote:

> The only argument for a DME is if you have an IFR GPS, there are
> requirements for being able to fly your alternate with no GPS,

Which goes away with WAS.

[Newps]

>>What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can
>>do
>>with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly
>>an
>>ILS-DME

No reason you can't use your GPS to fly an ILS/DME. There's no
requirement for the DME shack to be in the database. My GX55 is just
such a unit. Terminal/enroute only. You navigate ILS/DME's using a
distance from the outer marker.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:

> >>What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can
> >>do
> >>with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly
> >>an
> >>ILS-DME
>
> No reason you can't use your GPS to fly an ILS/DME.

AIM 1-1-19(f) gives a specific list of situations where you can use a GPS
in lieu of ADF or DME. Determining a fix made up of a LOC course and a DME
reading isn't one of them.

> There's no requirement for the DME shack to be in the database.

Well, there's things like:

NOTE-
When using a facility as the active WP, the only acceptable facility is
the DME facility which is charted as the one used to establish the DME fix.
If this facility is not in your airborne database, you are not authorized
to use a facility WP for this operation.

That sure sounds to me like a requirement to have the DME ground station
(the antenna, really, not the shack) in the database.

> My GX55 is just such a unit. Terminal/enroute only. You navigate
> ILS/DME's using a distance from the outer marker.

Can you give me a specific example?

[Ross Richardson]

jsmith wrote:

> Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
> Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
>
> mindenpilot wrote:
>
>> Some DMEs seem to have an indicator, and then a separate receiver
>> box, like the ARC 800 DME.
>> Others I've seen just seem to be an in-panel job, like the Narco DME
>> 190 or the King KN62A.
>> I've seen some on Ebay, and wanted to make sure that the Narco 190/
>> King KN62A don't require an additional recieving unit, like the ARC 800.
>> That is, if I were to purchase a yellow-tagged Narco 190 (and tray
>> and connectors), would that be all I need? Antenna?
>
>
Adam, that is what I did. I had a ADF that didn't work and no DME. I
purchased a factory reconditioned KLN89/B and had it installed and
removed the ADF. The 89/B is working for me althought a Garmin 530 would
also me nice.

Ross

--
Regards,

Ross
________________________________________
972.952.3170 Phone 972.949.9249 Pager
972.952.2574 FAX

McKinney / Wing A2 North @ 48v72

[Ross Richardson]

Roy Smith wrote:

>In article >,
> "Dude" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>"jsmith" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>>Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
>>>Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What he said!
>>
>>I am presently looking to replace my RNAV/DME with a new GPS. By the time
>>you buy and install a used DME system you will be getting pretty close to a
>>used IFR GPS.
>>
>>
>
>What he said, squared. About the only thing I can think of that you can do
>with a DME that you can't with a terminal-certified GPS is use it to fly an
>ILS-DME (because you don't have the location of the ILS DME ground station
>in the GPS database). Unless you have some very specific reason to need
>DME for one of the very few things GPS can't replace it for, I think it
>would be foolish to invest in DME these days.
>
>
I have found the DME location in my KLN 89/B database. I tried it once.

ross

[Ron Natalie]

jsmith wrote:
> Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
> Purchase a good used IFR GPS.
>

Maintenance? I've had a KN64 in my panel for over a decade.
I haven't had any maintenance done to it. Now the rest of the
King SC stack is a different story. The GS crumped and occasionally
the displays on the KX155's fail. The transponder needs regular
attention and the stupid ADF I am never certain if it is ever working.

I'm in the middle of switching over to a Garmin stack, the only
thing I'm keeping is the KN64.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd go out of my way to install one
if I didn't already have one. Back when I put it in, I knew it was
likely to be the first casualty of the GPS era.

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:

>
> GPS approaches are getting more and more common. My guess is it would be
> pretty rare to find any airport with an ILS that didn't also have some sort
> of GPS approach. If you have some specific airports you plan on visiting a
> lot, check out specifically what approaches they have.

Can't think of one. However we have some airports here where you can't
fly the ILS without either DME or a radar callout for a required fix.

[[email protected]]

Ron Natalie > wrote:
: Maintenance? I've had a KN64 in my panel for over a decade.
: I haven't had any maintenance done to it. Now the rest of the
: King SC stack is a different story. The GS crumped and occasionally
: the displays on the KX155's fail. The transponder needs regular
: attention and the stupid ADF I am never certain if it is ever working.

: I'm in the middle of switching over to a Garmin stack, the only
: thing I'm keeping is the KN64.

: On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd go out of my way to install one
: if I didn't already have one. Back when I put it in, I knew it was
: likely to be the first casualty of the GPS era.

I'll pipe in here and say that a DME is still incredibly handy to have. It's
stone-cold simple to dial up, independent of databases and the rest of the GPS
fiddling cruft. If you already have one and it works, it's got a lot of utility for
situational awareness if you have a chart in front of you. The IFR GPS doesn't give
you as much quick situational awareness unless it's moving map, since you'll have to
fiddle with something to get a distance/bearing to something.

That said, for people shelling out big bucks for an install, what everyone
said about the GPS makes sense. I put a KNS-80 (ILS/GS/NAV/DME/RNAV) in my Cherokee
about 2 years ago, as we needed another NAV and a GS. It's lots of bang for the buck,
and they're almost free on ebay these days. If you're going to pay $1000-$2000 for an
install, though, the $500 KNS-80 isn't quite as useful as a $1000 IFR GPS UNLESS you
need another NAV/ILS/GS as well. Then it makes a lot of sense.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[jsmith]

Keep in mind that a DME is a transmitter.
At some point in time, the transmitter final stage power transistors
are going to die and need replaced. When they need replaced depends on
how often you have it turned on.

(PS... A new stack, eh? So does this mean the Navion will be at OSH this
year? :-)) )

> jsmith wrote:
>> Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
>> Purchase a good used IFR GPS.

> Ron Natalie wrote:
> Maintenance? I've had a KN64 in my panel for over a decade.
> I haven't had any maintenance done to it. Now the rest of the
> King SC stack is a different story. The GS crumped and occasionally
> the displays on the KX155's fail. The transponder needs regular
> attention and the stupid ADF I am never certain if it is ever working.
> I'm in the middle of switching over to a Garmin stack, the only
> thing I'm keeping is the KN64.
> On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd go out of my way to install one
> if I didn't already have one. Back when I put it in, I knew it was
> likely to be the first casualty of the GPS era.

[mindenpilot]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> jsmith wrote:

> Adam, that is what I did. I had a ADF that didn't work and no DME. I
> purchased a factory reconditioned KLN89/B and had it installed and removed
> the ADF. The 89/B is working for me althought a Garmin 530 would also me
> nice.
>
> Ross
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ross
> ________________________________________
> 972.952.3170 Phone 972.949.9249 Pager 972.952.2574 FAX
>
> McKinney / Wing A2 North @ 48v72

Ross,

Since the original post, I've been looking at the KLN 89B.
How do you like it?
Is it certified for both enroute and approach?
I was thinking of selling my Airmap 1000 to help finance the purchase.
Is it good enough that I won't miss the moving map, etc?

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

P.S. Are you in McKinney, TX? That's where I bought my plane last
October...

[Darrel Toepfer]

mindenpilot wrote:

> Since the original post, I've been looking at the KLN 89B.
> How do you like it?
> Is it certified for both enroute and approach?
> I was thinking of selling my Airmap 1000 to help finance the purchase.
> Is it good enough that I won't miss the moving map, etc?

The Airmap has an obstruction database and all the airport data, since
they are now selling for nearly half the price of what they once were,
I'd hold on to it...

[Ross Oliver]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:19:22 GMT, jsmith > wrote:
>Don't waste your money on a DME. Too much maintenance.
>Purchase a good used IFR GPS.


I beg to differ. My Cheap ******* IFR Upgrade circa-1980 KNS80
VOR/GS/DME unit has required ZERO maintenance in the 2 1/2 years
since I had it installed. If it had been an IFR GPS, I would be
poorer by about $1200 (i.e. $400/yr) for GPS database updates.
So my KNS80 has essentially paid for itself ;-)

The KNS80's are great units, and can be had for about half the cost
the cheapest used IFR GPS units. Cheaper to install too.


Ross Oliver
Cheap ******* Aviator

[Ron Natalie]

jsmith wrote:
> Keep in mind that a DME is a transmitter.

It is...but irrelevent.

> At some point in time, the transmitter final stage power transistors
> are going to die and need replaced. When they need replaced depends on
> how often you have it turned on.

At some point ANY electronic component may die and require replacement.
Transistor finals will last the lifetime of the airframe unless abused.

[Ross Richardson]

mindenpilot wrote:

>"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>jsmith wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Adam, that is what I did. I had a ADF that didn't work and no DME. I
>>purchased a factory reconditioned KLN89/B and had it installed and removed
>>the ADF. The 89/B is working for me althought a Garmin 530 would also me
>>nice.
>>
>>Ross
>>
>>--
>>Regards,
>>
>>Ross
>>________________________________________
>>972.952.3170 Phone 972.949.9249 Pager 972.952.2574 FAX

>>McKinney / Wing A2 North @ 48v72
>>
>>
>
>Ross,
>
>Since the original post, I've been looking at the KLN 89B.
>How do you like it?
>Is it certified for both enroute and approach?
>I was thinking of selling my Airmap 1000 to help finance the purchase.
>Is it good enough that I won't miss the moving map, etc?
>
>Adam
>N7966L
>Beech Super III
>
>P.S. Are you in McKinney, TX? That's where I bought my plane last
>October...
>
>
>
>
Yes, I work in McKinney and commute from 35 miles north. Small world.

The 89/B is certified for enroute, terminal, and approach. It is old
technology but works for me. The owners manual is poor. I got a couple
of hours dual with an instructor that had knowledge in the unit and
boght the John & Martha King videos on GPS and they use the 89/B as the
example. Watched them several time. Keys I discovered: 1) must be in the
flight plan mode ( not direct to) to get the approach to activate, and
2) I like the heading up (vs north up or trk up) mode and the moving
map (it does have moving map) even as simple as it is, gives good
infomation. I update via laptop getting the downloads from the
internet.. You will need a enunciator panel and CDI to interface with
it. I got a separate CDI (total of 3 now one each radio and GPS).


Sure, I would like one of the new Garmins, but couldn't afford it. You
can store flight plans, modify the plans you have in use, calculate TAS,
wind driection, etc. I bought a factory reconditioned unit.

Hope this helps.

Ross

Email me privately who you brought the plane from if you do not mind.

[mindenpilot]

Here's where I'm at now.
I was interested in checking out IFR GPS units as a DME alternative.
You can get an older (KLN 89/B) unit pretty inexpensively.
So I went to my local avionics guy and talked to him a bit.
After explaining what I wanted to do, he actually recommended going the DME
route.

For an older GPS, I'd have to get another indicator to slave to it.
He also said installation costs would go up as a result.

He said the best solution (cost/complexity-wise) would be to pull my ADF and
put in a DME.
If the avionics guy is telling me this is lower cost/complexity, I guess I
better think about it!

So now I'm thinking of two choices.

1. Find an inexpensive DME. I'm thinking either Narco 890 or King 62/64.
Definitely not a remote unit.
2. Find an inexpensive IFR GPS with built in CDI (kind of like a King KX-125
NAV).

If anyone knows of such a GPS, I'd appreciate it.
If anyone knows a source of great used avionics, I'd appreciate that, too.

Oh yeah. One other alternative I was thinking of was using a KLN 89/B for
enroute only, no approach.
That is, using the GPS sort of like a DME.
Is this legal? Can you do this? The only reason I ask is that I can find a
KLN 89/B for less than a DME 64.

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[[email protected]]

mindenpilot > wrote:
: 1. Find an inexpensive DME. I'm thinking either Narco 890 or King 62/64.
: Definitely not a remote unit.
: 2. Find an inexpensive IFR GPS with built in CDI (kind of like a King KX-125
: NAV).

: If anyone knows of such a GPS, I'd appreciate it.
: If anyone knows a source of great used avionics, I'd appreciate that, too.

: Oh yeah. One other alternative I was thinking of was using a KLN 89/B for
: enroute only, no approach.
: That is, using the GPS sort of like a DME.
: Is this legal? Can you do this? The only reason I ask is that I can find a
: KLN 89/B for less than a DME 64.

AFAIK, you can only legally use the distance information in an IFR GPS if it's
actually IFR certified. That means that you need all the bells and whistles and an
actual IFR cert. In other words, if it's old enough to be inexpensive, it also needs
a dedicated CDI to go along with it. If you install an older IFR GPS as VFR-only, you
can't legally use its distance info as a substitute for ADF/DME.

As far as the DME goes, some of the units get their channeling from another
NAV, and some can chose between that and dial-themselves. Wiring up the channeling to
another nav will cost some labor on the install, as it's tedious and has to break into
existing wiring.

If you have the panel space and/or desire to go with the KNS-80, you get lots
of functionality for the same or less than the DME only. Be aware, however, that it
takes CDI head that doesn't have a NAV converter built-in, but sends out the OBS
encoder to the unit. They're less common, and useful with IFR GPS installs, so they
can be hard to come by. Lots of people have upgraded their KNS-80 to IFR GPS and kept
the NAV head. Technically speaking, you could install the KNS-80 without an indicator
and just use it as a slightly heavy, tall DME (or even a DME to an RNAV point, come to
think of it... maybe even an ILS with a converter-head).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************