PLEASE NEED HELP with Cherokee 180 metal bulkhead problem under back seat

[C]

Hi folks,

I ran into a little problem today.

Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
back seat.

The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.

However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
-- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.

Has anyone run into this problem before? I'd love to hear what had to
be done to repair/replace the damage. Maybe someone knows of a 337
that had been done to repair similar damage??? It would sure help my
mechanic who is a little unsure of where to start in the repair
process.

Thanks guys...



Chuck
N7398W

[Jay Honeck]

If you are a member of the Cherokee Pilots Association, asking this question
on their "Cherokee Chat" web page would net you quite a few good responses.

See www.Piperowner.com .

Sounds like you've got some pretty major damage there. Is any of it noted
in the logbooks? (I'll bet I know the answer to *that* question...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

C > wrote:
> Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
> mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
> Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
> back seat.
>
> The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
> be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
> coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
> outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.

I'd be carefull jumping to the conclusion that's it isn't structural.
That steel plate is the rear wing attach fitting. And I believe the
bulkhead that it's attached to is considered the "rear spar carry through"
(like a "mini" spar). Cherokee's have a large center spar, but also have
a front and rear attach point and carry through. The front carry through
is behind where your heels sit when you're in the pilot's seat (under the
plastic trim pieces). The rear one is where you describe.


> However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
> -- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
> small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
> a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
> the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.

There was a person on the Cherokee Chat (see Jay Honeck's post) a few
weeks ago that had very similar crack and he posted pictures. I hope this
isn't the beginning of a trend, or we'll be seeing an AD soon.

You're correct in assuming a "terrific upward stress", although I would
have hoped that a hard landing or bad turbulence wouldn't have caused such
damage. You'll want to make sure you have a very competant mechanic fix
this. Wing departure, or severe twist, while in flight would really suck.
You might want to show this to your local FSDO, too. I hate to encourage
and AD, but this could be a problem we might not want to ignore.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[C]

On 05 Apr 2005 15:58:08 GMT, (Jay Masino)
wrote:

>C > wrote:
>> Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
>> mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
>> Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
>> back seat.
>>
>> The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
>> be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
>> coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
>> outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>
>I'd be carefull jumping to the conclusion that's it isn't structural.
>That steel plate is the rear wing attach fitting. And I believe the
>bulkhead that it's attached to is considered the "rear spar carry through"
>(like a "mini" spar). Cherokee's have a large center spar, but also have
>a front and rear attach point and carry through. The front carry through
>is behind where your heels sit when you're in the pilot's seat (under the
>plastic trim pieces). The rear one is where you describe.
>
>
>> However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
>> -- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
>> small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
>> a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
>> the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>
>There was a person on the Cherokee Chat (see Jay Honeck's post) a few
>weeks ago that had very similar crack and he posted pictures. I hope this
>isn't the beginning of a trend, or we'll be seeing an AD soon.
>
>You're correct in assuming a "terrific upward stress", although I would
>have hoped that a hard landing or bad turbulence wouldn't have caused such
>damage. You'll want to make sure you have a very competant mechanic fix
>this. Wing departure, or severe twist, while in flight would really suck.
>You might want to show this to your local FSDO, too. I hate to encourage
>and AD, but this could be a problem we might not want to ignore.
>
>--- Jay

Funny you mention that...

I talked to the maintenance person at the FSDO today about this
problem. As soon as I mentioned that I had a Cherokee with a damaged
"Frame Assembly Lower Station" -- he replies "The one under the back
seat?". WOW! I'd hate to think this is a common problem.

Its looking like I'll either have to replace it with the same part
scavenged from another Cherokee, or call in a DER to design a fix and
then do the fix. Either way -- its going to be expensive!

I'm thinking that I'm going to go after a A&P for the cost though. I
paid a A&P for a pre-buy/annual less than a year ago. This problem is
not new -- someone tried a half-assed, partial fix with some rivits.
So, the problem was definitely known, not in the logs, not repaired,
and NOT identified during his annual inspection. And this was
something a regular A&P spotted as soon as we lifted the rear seat.
So, I think I'm going to AT LEAST get my payment for the pre-buy back
if not get full payment for repairs.

See attached picture. Sorry for the grime, I haven't had a chance to
clean up under that seat yet.


Chuck

[xyzzy]

C wrote:

> On 05 Apr 2005 15:58:08 GMT, (Jay Masino)
> wrote:
>
>
>>C > wrote:
>>
>>>Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
>>>mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
>>>Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
>>>back seat.
>>>
>>>The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
>>>be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
>>>coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
>>>outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>>
>>I'd be carefull jumping to the conclusion that's it isn't structural.
>>That steel plate is the rear wing attach fitting. And I believe the
>>bulkhead that it's attached to is considered the "rear spar carry through"
>>(like a "mini" spar). Cherokee's have a large center spar, but also have
>>a front and rear attach point and carry through. The front carry through
>>is behind where your heels sit when you're in the pilot's seat (under the
>>plastic trim pieces). The rear one is where you describe.
>>
>>
>>
>>>However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
>>>-- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
>>>small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
>>>a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
>>>the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>>
>>There was a person on the Cherokee Chat (see Jay Honeck's post) a few
>>weeks ago that had very similar crack and he posted pictures. I hope this
>>isn't the beginning of a trend, or we'll be seeing an AD soon.
>>
>>You're correct in assuming a "terrific upward stress", although I would
>>have hoped that a hard landing or bad turbulence wouldn't have caused such
>>damage. You'll want to make sure you have a very competant mechanic fix
>>this. Wing departure, or severe twist, while in flight would really suck.
>>You might want to show this to your local FSDO, too. I hate to encourage
>>and AD, but this could be a problem we might not want to ignore.
>>
>>--- Jay
>
>
> Funny you mention that...
>
> I talked to the maintenance person at the FSDO today about this
> problem. As soon as I mentioned that I had a Cherokee with a damaged
> "Frame Assembly Lower Station" -- he replies "The one under the back
> seat?". WOW! I'd hate to think this is a common problem.
>
> Its looking like I'll either have to replace it with the same part
> scavenged from another Cherokee, or call in a DER to design a fix and
> then do the fix. Either way -- its going to be expensive!
>
> I'm thinking that I'm going to go after a A&P for the cost though. I
> paid a A&P for a pre-buy/annual less than a year ago. This problem is
> not new -- someone tried a half-assed, partial fix with some rivits.
> So, the problem was definitely known, not in the logs, not repaired,
> and NOT identified during his annual inspection. And this was
> something a regular A&P spotted as soon as we lifted the rear seat.
> So, I think I'm going to AT LEAST get my payment for the pre-buy back
> if not get full payment for repairs.
>
> See attached picture. Sorry for the grime, I haven't had a chance to
> clean up under that seat yet.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
attachments don't work on the newsgroups. You'll need to put it on a
website if you want us to be able to see it

[kage]

Quite often hard landing damage such as this is prohibitively expensive to
repair. I suspect you'll find yet more damage inside the wings around the
landing gear attach points. People have tried unsuccessfully to make bush
airplanes out of Cherokees. Usually the airframe just gets bulldozed off the
side of some Alaska runway after a few months.

Karl

[Roy Page]

Well I could see the photograph real well.
But the problem looks quite bad, I am checking my Archer in the same area.

--
Roy
N5804F - PA28-181 Piper Archer II




"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
>C wrote:
>
>> On 05 Apr 2005 15:58:08 GMT, (Jay Masino)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>C > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
>>>>mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
>>>>Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
>>>>back seat.
>>>>
>>>>The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
>>>>be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
>>>>coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
>>>>outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>>>
>>>I'd be carefull jumping to the conclusion that's it isn't structural.
>>>That steel plate is the rear wing attach fitting. And I believe the
>>>bulkhead that it's attached to is considered the "rear spar carry
>>>through"
>>>(like a "mini" spar). Cherokee's have a large center spar, but also have
>>>a front and rear attach point and carry through. The front carry through
>>>is behind where your heels sit when you're in the pilot's seat (under the
>>>plastic trim pieces). The rear one is where you describe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
>>>>-- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
>>>>small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
>>>>a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
>>>>the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>>>
>>>There was a person on the Cherokee Chat (see Jay Honeck's post) a few
>>>weeks ago that had very similar crack and he posted pictures. I hope
>>>this
>>>isn't the beginning of a trend, or we'll be seeing an AD soon.
>>>
>>>You're correct in assuming a "terrific upward stress", although I would
>>>have hoped that a hard landing or bad turbulence wouldn't have caused
>>>such
>>>damage. You'll want to make sure you have a very competant mechanic fix
>>>this. Wing departure, or severe twist, while in flight would really
>>>suck. You might want to show this to your local FSDO, too. I hate to
>>>encourage
>>>and AD, but this could be a problem we might not want to ignore.
>>>
>>>--- Jay
>>
>>
>> Funny you mention that...
>>
>> I talked to the maintenance person at the FSDO today about this
>> problem. As soon as I mentioned that I had a Cherokee with a damaged
>> "Frame Assembly Lower Station" -- he replies "The one under the back
>> seat?". WOW! I'd hate to think this is a common problem.
>>
>> Its looking like I'll either have to replace it with the same part
>> scavenged from another Cherokee, or call in a DER to design a fix and
>> then do the fix. Either way -- its going to be expensive!
>>
>> I'm thinking that I'm going to go after a A&P for the cost though. I
>> paid a A&P for a pre-buy/annual less than a year ago. This problem is
>> not new -- someone tried a half-assed, partial fix with some rivits.
>> So, the problem was definitely known, not in the logs, not repaired,
>> and NOT identified during his annual inspection. And this was
>> something a regular A&P spotted as soon as we lifted the rear seat.
>> So, I think I'm going to AT LEAST get my payment for the pre-buy back
>> if not get full payment for repairs.
>>
>> See attached picture. Sorry for the grime, I haven't had a chance to
>> clean up under that seat yet.
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
> attachments don't work on the newsgroups. You'll need to put it on a
> website if you want us to be able to see it
>

[Darrel Toepfer]

xyzzy wrote:

> attachments don't work on the newsgroups. You'll need to put it on a
> website if you want us to be able to see it

Attachments work, some ISPs don't allow or filter them, I received it
just fine...

You can view it here:

http://www.whodat.net/cherokee180/damage.jpg

Shame mine doesn't filter excessive quotation... ;)

[Aaron Coolidge]

kage > wrote:
: Quite often hard landing damage such as this is prohibitively expensive to
: repair. I suspect you'll find yet more damage inside the wings around the
: landing gear attach points. People have tried unsuccessfully to make bush
: airplanes out of Cherokees. Usually the airframe just gets bulldozed off the
: side of some Alaska runway after a few months.

: Karl

Not everyone wants or needs a bush plane.
--
Aaron C.

[Aaron Coolidge]

C > wrote:
: Hi folks,

: I ran into a little problem today.

<problem snipped>

This is probably due to someone torqueing the wing forward or aft at
some point. The wing flexes around the main spar and pulls or pushes on
the rear attatch fitting. This causes a crack in the spar carry through
right where yours is. The wing is 12' long, so even a small torque
applied at the tip gets "amplified" by the long lever arm.

The front attatch fitting is there really to hold on the leading edge
"glove" and doesn't take much force.

The main spar and rear attatch take all of the loads.

Hard landings cause cracks in the wing lower skins at the most inboard
point just in front of the main spar, which is covered by the long metal
fairing when assembled. Ripples on the lower aft wing skins also show up.
If this was done during a hard landing it was really a doozie.

My Cherokee 180 had similar damage on the left wing rear attatch fitting.
It was apparently damaged in 1969 when the left wing hit a runway light.
It was repaired without logs or 337's and went unnoticed until I bought it
in 2000. The mechanic that did the pre-buy found it. He said that it was
repaired just fine and not to worry unduly. Since the plane had 31 years and
5600 hours since the repair I think it is just fine, too. I don't believe
that there was a crack in the spar carry through on my plane, though.

The repair on my airplane involved cutting out the baggage compartment floor
about 6" aft of the rear spar carry through. The rear spar carry through
was replaced, picking up the rivets in the steel plate. A scab patch was
put on the outside of the fuselage. The baggage comp. floor was replaced
with a doubler on the inside along the cut line. It all was beautifully done.

If I can ever get over to the airport again, which may not be for 2-3 more
weeks, I can take some pictures if you wish.

--
Aaron Coolidge

[C]

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:50:56 -0700, "kage" > wrote:

>Quite often hard landing damage such as this is prohibitively expensive to
>repair. I suspect you'll find yet more damage inside the wings around the
>landing gear attach points. People have tried unsuccessfully to make bush
>airplanes out of Cherokees. Usually the airframe just gets bulldozed off the
>side of some Alaska runway after a few months.
>
>Karl

I agree, some people attempt to use planes like this for purposes they
were not built to withstand. But I don't think this was the case with
this Cherokee. Its been well tended by past owners, upgraded quite a
bit, and even preventative maintenance shows in the logs. Also, all
ADs show compliance in the logs. The last owner was a nice gentleman
up in Mass who used it to travel to see his son occasionally. And the
one before him was a minister in the northeast. So, no nuts in the
outback.

We've additionally been all over the wings and landing gear recently
(reoccuring AD on gear links) -- no problems at all. The wings and
fuselage don't show any wrinkling or other signs of high stress/hard
landings. This one frame member is the only damage we can find
anywhere -- and only on one side.

Luckily, I've been able to track down a couple places that have that
part on hand. It looks like it will cost a pretty penny to get it and
have it installed (a lot of riveting involved) -- but this one part
should resolve the problem.



Chuck

[Steve Foley]

I wonder if this caused it:


FAA Accident/Incident Information
#FAA1 Accident/Incident Occurred on: 1991-10-18
Narrative: PILOT LOST CONTROL OF AIRCRAFT ON ROLLOUT. VEERED OFF
RUNWAY. LATER STATED CAUSE WAS A WIND GUST.







"C" > wrote in message
...
> Hi folks,
>
> I ran into a little problem today.
>
> Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
> mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
> Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
> back seat.
>
> The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
> be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
> coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
> outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>
> However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
> -- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
> small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
> a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
> the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>
> Has anyone run into this problem before? I'd love to hear what had to
> be done to repair/replace the damage. Maybe someone knows of a 337
> that had been done to repair similar damage??? It would sure help my
> mechanic who is a little unsure of where to start in the repair
> process.
>
> Thanks guys...
>
>
>
> Chuck
> N7398W
>

[Jay Masino]

Steve Foley > wrote:
> I wonder if this caused it:
> FAA Accident/Incident Information
> #FAA1 Accident/Incident Occurred on: 1991-10-18
> Narrative: PILOT LOST CONTROL OF AIRCRAFT ON ROLLOUT. VEERED OFF
> RUNWAY. LATER STATED CAUSE WAS A WIND GUST.

Jeez, I hope not. That means it would have gone through 13 or 14 annuals
with no one noticing the crack!

--- Jay




> "C" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I ran into a little problem today.
>>
>> Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
>> mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
>> Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
>> back seat.
>>
>> The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
>> be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
>> coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
>> outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>>
>> However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
>> -- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
>> small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
>> a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
>> the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>>
>> Has anyone run into this problem before? I'd love to hear what had to
>> be done to repair/replace the damage. Maybe someone knows of a 337
>> that had been done to repair similar damage??? It would sure help my
>> mechanic who is a little unsure of where to start in the repair
>> process.
>>
>> Thanks guys...
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>> N7398W
>>



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[[email protected]]

C > wrote:
: The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
: be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
: coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
: outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.

: However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
: -- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
: small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
: a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
: the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.

Wow... that looks ugly. I just spend an inordinate amount of time looking at
the exact same area of my -140/180. We got FSDO approval for a 337 to add a -180
baggage floor back there. I spend 2 full weekends folded into a pretzel in the tail
of mine drilling out old rivets, drilling holes for, squeezing solid, and popping
blind new ones in.... all with the A&P saying, "Man, that looks uncomfortable." I was
quite disturbed about having to remove and replace a half dozen rivets on the
important-looking steel attach brackets in the corners. I'll be really ****ed if it
becomes an AD that requires removing the whole damn thing again!

I like the poster's explanation that it's a fore-aft torque that rippled it...
not a hard landing. A hard landing usually tries to push the mains struts through the
top of the wing, IIRC.

-Cory


************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

Steve Foley wrote:
> I wonder if this caused it:
>
>
> FAA Accident/Incident Information
> #FAA1 Accident/Incident Occurred on: 1991-10-18
> Narrative: PILOT LOST CONTROL OF AIRCRAFT ON ROLLOUT.
VEERED OFF
> RUNWAY. LATER STATED CAUSE WAS A WIND GUST.

That very well could be it. Departing the runway on to rough ground
can cause the fore/aft stresses that generally cause these types of
cracks.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Don Hammer]

Some years ago I repaired a Pawnee that had a similar steel plate on
the front spar. Because of the steel on aluminum, there was extensive
corrosion between and the aluminum rivets were soft enough you could
pick off the heads of the #6 rivets with your finger nail.

From the looks of the photo, there is lots of rust, meaning water.
Aluminum + steel + water = battery = corrosion. If it were mine, I'd
take it apart and look to see what is going on. If the aluminum is
corroded under the steel, you could get cracks under normal loads.

Don
A&P - IA

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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[C]

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:05:52 -0500, Don Hammer > wrote:

>Some years ago I repaired a Pawnee that had a similar steel plate on
>the front spar. Because of the steel on aluminum, there was extensive
>corrosion between and the aluminum rivets were soft enough you could
>pick off the heads of the #6 rivets with your finger nail.
>
>From the looks of the photo, there is lots of rust, meaning water.
>Aluminum + steel + water = battery = corrosion. If it were mine, I'd
>take it apart and look to see what is going on. If the aluminum is
>corroded under the steel, you could get cracks under normal loads.
>
>Don
>A&P - IA

Don,

We've looked at it pretty closely. There is no corrosion involved.
And no sign of water infiltration. That was pretty clear from the
thick layer of dry dust all over the surrounding area -- I should post
another picture after vacumming the area out.

And worse yet, there are two cherry-rivets in the damaged area (you
can see one of them in the picture). That means that after the damage
- some "maintainer" bent the metal brace back down and stuck a couple
of cherry-rivets in it. Nope, he didn't bother to follow 43.13 and
repair it properly -- he just did a half-assed sorta-fix. And of
course -- he didn't make any mention of it in the logs.

Now -- it looks like I get to pay a DRE for a repair plan, probably
cut that brace a few inches away, get a replacement plate fashioned,
and splice it in. And probably pay a ton for a IA to do a bunch of
dye-penatrant testing while we're at it to insure there was no other
damage.

The thing that really ticks me off is I paid to have a prebuy/annual
done before purchasing the aircraft. With all this expense on a
pre-existing condition that should have been identified (we spotted it
FIRST time we looked under the back seat) -- I'm going back after the
IA who did the prebuy/annual. He's either going to help pay for this
repair -- or he can answer questions from the FAA.


Chuck

[Darrel Toepfer]

In case you were unable to see the cleaned up photo in the newsgroup I
have made it available here, in much better detail than the previously
posted photo of the bulkhead damage:

http://www.whodat.net/cherokee180/damage3.jpg

[Ben Jackson]

On 2005-04-11, Darrel Toepfer > wrote:
>
> posted photo of the bulkhead damage:
>
> http://www.whodat.net/cherokee180/damage3.jpg

How hard do you have to land to do that?! Do the wings have dimples
above the gear?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Jay Masino]

Ben Jackson > wrote:
> On 2005-04-11, Darrel Toepfer > wrote:
>>
>> posted photo of the bulkhead damage:
>>
>> http://www.whodat.net/cherokee180/damage3.jpg
>
> How hard do you have to land to do that?! Do the wings have dimples
> above the gear?


Wow. The first thing I did this weekend was grab a flashlight and checked
that area of my plane. It's perfect, thank goodness.

I wouldn't rule out some severe forward/backward motion of the wing
causing this, although it should be strong enough to take it.

If I'm not mistaken, the co-pilot side of this bulkead (the same side
shown in this picture) also has the external step reinforcement located on
it's rear side... Hmmm. maybe that's the next bulkhead back... I can't
remember.



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[C]

On 11 Apr 2005 11:41:56 GMT, (Jay Masino)
wrote:

>Ben Jackson > wrote:
>> On 2005-04-11, Darrel Toepfer > wrote:
>>>
>>> posted photo of the bulkhead damage:
>>>
>>> http://www.whodat.net/cherokee180/damage3.jpg
>>
>> How hard do you have to land to do that?! Do the wings have dimples
>> above the gear?
>
>
>Wow. The first thing I did this weekend was grab a flashlight and checked
>that area of my plane. It's perfect, thank goodness.
>
>I wouldn't rule out some severe forward/backward motion of the wing
>causing this, although it should be strong enough to take it.
>
>If I'm not mistaken, the co-pilot side of this bulkead (the same side
>shown in this picture) also has the external step reinforcement located on
>it's rear side... Hmmm. maybe that's the next bulkhead back... I can't
>remember.

Actually Jay,

This model doesn't have the external step on it. This Cherokee has
the no-slip step on the flap and the wing walk area. But no step
sticking down from the fuselage.

Although that is a good point. I think I had better get under that
bird and take a close look at the external skin. And follow it up
with a careful look in the maintenance/parts manuals. That could well
be where a step USED to be mounted. If there was damage that affected
that step and the frame it mounted to -- the idiot who did that
half-assed repair may have left it off.

Thanks for the idea Jay.


Chuck

[Mike Spera]

Sorry to break the news to you, but that definitely IS structural. And
this is not an easy fix. The fitting on the left is the rear spar attach
fitting. What you are looking at is the aftermath of a fairly severe
"excursion" of the rear spar on that wing, probably front to back. I'm
not sure where you see repairs and extra rivets. Those on the attach
fitting and the ones going through the floor are all supposed to be
there. I do see the corrosion forming behind the fitting that is the
subject of a Piper Service Bulletin.

Good luck trying to hold someone accountable on a pre buy. I highly
doubt you will get anything back. For all the A&P knows, this damage
could have occurred after his inspection. Ever notice any new scrapes on
the affected wing leading edge or it's control surfaces, especially
towards the tip? This may have been a close encounter with a hangar door
or fuel truck. It does not take a huge amount of lateral pressure at the
wing tip to produce the type of damage in the photo. These wings are
made tremendously strong to not bend UP and quite strong to not bend
DOWN. But the only thing keeping them from moving front to back is the
rear spar and its attach point. Yours clearly flexed in and out.

Let us know what your repair quote is.

Mike

xyzzy wrote:

> C wrote:
>
>> On 05 Apr 2005 15:58:08 GMT, (Jay Masino)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> C > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
>>>> mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
>>>> Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
>>>> back seat.
>>>>
>>>> The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
>>>> be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
>>>> coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
>>>> outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd be carefull jumping to the conclusion that's it isn't
>>> structural. That steel plate is the rear wing attach fitting. And I
>>> believe the
>>> bulkhead that it's attached to is considered the "rear spar carry
>>> through"
>>> (like a "mini" spar). Cherokee's have a large center spar, but also
>>> have
>>> a front and rear attach point and carry through. The front carry
>>> through
>>> is behind where your heels sit when you're in the pilot's seat (under
>>> the
>>> plastic trim pieces). The rear one is where you describe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
>>>> -- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
>>>> small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
>>>> a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
>>>> the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>>>
>>>
>>> There was a person on the Cherokee Chat (see Jay Honeck's post) a few
>>> weeks ago that had very similar crack and he posted pictures. I hope
>>> this
>>> isn't the beginning of a trend, or we'll be seeing an AD soon.
>>>
>>> You're correct in assuming a "terrific upward stress", although I would
>>> have hoped that a hard landing or bad turbulence wouldn't have caused
>>> such
>>> damage. You'll want to make sure you have a very competant mechanic fix
>>> this. Wing departure, or severe twist, while in flight would really
>>> suck. You might want to show this to your local FSDO, too. I hate
>>> to encourage
>>> and AD, but this could be a problem we might not want to ignore.
>>>
>>> --- Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> Funny you mention that...
>>
>> I talked to the maintenance person at the FSDO today about this
>> problem. As soon as I mentioned that I had a Cherokee with a damaged
>> "Frame Assembly Lower Station" -- he replies "The one under the back
>> seat?". WOW! I'd hate to think this is a common problem.
>>
>> Its looking like I'll either have to replace it with the same part
>> scavenged from another Cherokee, or call in a DER to design a fix and
>> then do the fix. Either way -- its going to be expensive!
>>
>> I'm thinking that I'm going to go after a A&P for the cost though. I
>> paid a A&P for a pre-buy/annual less than a year ago. This problem is
>> not new -- someone tried a half-assed, partial fix with some rivits.
>> So, the problem was definitely known, not in the logs, not repaired,
>> and NOT identified during his annual inspection. And this was
>> something a regular A&P spotted as soon as we lifted the rear seat.
>> So, I think I'm going to AT LEAST get my payment for the pre-buy back
>> if not get full payment for repairs.
>>
>> See attached picture. Sorry for the grime, I haven't had a chance to
>> clean up under that seat yet.
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
> attachments don't work on the newsgroups. You'll need to put it on a
> website if you want us to be able to see it
>

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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[C]

>Sorry to break the news to you, but that definitely IS structural. And
>this is not an easy fix. The fitting on the left is the rear spar attach
>fitting. What you are looking at is the aftermath of a fairly severe
>"excursion" of the rear spar on that wing, probably front to back. I'm
>not sure where you see repairs and extra rivets. Those on the attach
>fitting and the ones going through the floor are all supposed to be
>there. I do see the corrosion forming behind the fitting that is the
>subject of a Piper Service Bulletin.
>
>Good luck trying to hold someone accountable on a pre buy. I highly
>doubt you will get anything back. For all the A&P knows, this damage
>could have occurred after his inspection. Ever notice any new scrapes on
>the affected wing leading edge or it's control surfaces, especially
>towards the tip? This may have been a close encounter with a hangar door
>or fuel truck. It does not take a huge amount of lateral pressure at the
>wing tip to produce the type of damage in the photo. These wings are
>made tremendously strong to not bend UP and quite strong to not bend
>DOWN. But the only thing keeping them from moving front to back is the
>rear spar and its attach point. Yours clearly flexed in and out.
>
>Let us know what your repair quote is.
>
>Mike

Hi Mike,

I met with a DER yesterday who has designed a repair for the damage.
Its not going to be as bad as first thought. And while the DER design
(plus 8110 form for FAA) cost was $450, the repair costs probably
won't push behond $1,000.

Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
upward and caused this damage.

If you look closely at the first picture posted on the 10th, you can
see two cherry-max rivets into the bottom flange from the outside
(rivets so poorly installed that they wiggle). THAT is how I know
this repair was previously known. I also recently found out that the
person I hired for the prebuy (on a referral) was the same person who
had been maintaining the plane for a number of years. So, the
suggestion that an A&P/IA would miss such damage through multiple
annuals and a pre-buy is just plan nonsense. If he is THAT
incompetent -- he shouldn't have a license to screw up further work.

Anyway - thanks for the information Mike. None of that mess was
corrosion by the way -- its just years of dirt/dust mixed with spray
on lubricant. The first picture shows it after I brushed it a bit and
vacuumed. I'm off tomorrow for a bunch of rivet pulling, buying some
aluminum, and riveting in repairs. I'll be sure to post a couple
pictures when we finish the designed repairs.


Chuck
N7398W

[Newps]

C wrote:
>
> Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
> happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
> excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
> engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
> the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
> firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
> on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
> upward and caused this damage.

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

[C]

>C wrote:
>>
>> Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
>> happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
>> excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
>> engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
>> the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
>> firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
>> on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
>> upward and caused this damage.
>
>So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
>cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

"Off end runway excursion. Nose gear collapsed, prop and engine
struck, engine incurred sudden stop. Sent engine to PenYan for
teardown/inspection/build up. Replaced everything forward of firewall
with new or serviceable."

Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
was worth mentioning or repairing correctly. Admittedly, compared to
the mangled nose gear and cowl -- that tear in the aluminum frame
member would have seemed very minor. But it was still damaged and he
should have repaired it correctly -- instead of just sticking some
cherry-max rivets in it and ignoring it.

Oh, and "NO" -- Cherokees can handle "off-pavement" just fine. I've
had this and another Cherokee on soft fields many times with no
difficulty. But whatever this dufus did back in '92 was sufficiently
fast and violent to collapse the nose gear. So, I guess some damage
to the rear-wing-strut attachment point shouldn't be too surprising.



Chuck

[Nathan Young]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:54:27 GMT, C > wrote:

>>So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
>>cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?
>
>Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
>says verbatum, but it was something like:

It is obvious this plane was in a major accident, and the wing damage
occurred at that time. It is not surprising that the damage and
repair to the wing spar box is not noted in the logs. Many
prospective buyers would take a pass on a plane that has had airframe
damage relating to the wingspar or spar box. Given the timeframe of
the damage (early 90s) there was probably heightened sensitivity to
the issue - The FAA released and then rescinded an AD for Piper
Cherokee wingspars in the late 80s.

[kage]

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a ball
of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build. You
can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.

Best,
Karl


"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:54:27 GMT, C > wrote:
>
>>>So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
>>>cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack
>>>apart?
>>
>>Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
>>says verbatum, but it was something like:
>
> It is obvious this plane was in a major accident, and the wing damage
> occurred at that time. It is not surprising that the damage and
> repair to the wing spar box is not noted in the logs. Many
> prospective buyers would take a pass on a plane that has had airframe
> damage relating to the wingspar or spar box. Given the timeframe of
> the damage (early 90s) there was probably heightened sensitivity to
> the issue - The FAA released and then rescinded an AD for Piper
> Cherokee wingspars in the late 80s.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"kage" > wrote in message
...
>
> It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.
>
> In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
> it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
> ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.
>
> Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
> Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
> You can guess the next.
>
> The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
> rebuild was in the logs, not a word.
>

Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

[Darrel Toepfer]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "kage" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.
>>
>>In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
>>it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
>>ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.
>>
>>Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
>>Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
>>You can guess the next.
>>
>>The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
>>rebuild was in the logs, not a word.
>
> Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

C185E, airworthy in '99, engine in '69. That reads about right for
something that slipped through the cracks for awhile...

Nothing shows up in a NTSB or FAA accident search either... Scary...

[kage]

That's a good question. I think I'll look up serial numbers on the net right
now.

Karl

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "kage" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.
>>
>> In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next
>> to it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
>> ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.
>>
>> Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
>> Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
>> You can guess the next.
>>
>> The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
>> rebuild was in the logs, not a word.
>>
>
> Are you sure it was the same aircraft?
>

[kage]

The accident was in British Columbia. The guy ran out of gas about 1/4 mile
short of Nimpo Lake.

Karl
>
> C185E, airworthy in '99, engine in '69. That reads about right for
> something that slipped through the cracks for awhile...
>
> Nothing shows up in a NTSB or FAA accident search either... Scary...

[kage]

"kage" > wrote in message
...
> That's a good question. I think I'll look up serial numbers on the net
> right now.
>

Well, the serial numbers still match:

My airplane N2764J--------Ser#1514
N2777J-----------------------Ser#1527


Might be a different airplane with the same ser# and N#, But that's still a
bunch of hanky-panky.

Karl

[Roger]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:18:52 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>C wrote:
>>
>> Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
>> happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
>> excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
>> engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
>> the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
>> firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
>> on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
>> upward and caused this damage.
>
>So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
>cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

They're pretty rugged.
The off runway excursion probably took it through a shallow ditch, or
hit something with the nose gear. I've landed a Cherokee 180 on a
short, rough, sod field a good many times with no damage.

OTOH I saw a couple of self conscious guys working in a hanger with
the door only part way open. (No it wasn't me!*) <:-))

They were trying to drive out a dent about 8 or 10 inches in from the
first rib at the tip on a 180. As I recall the dent was a good 4 or 5
inches deep. This was the result of a high, hot, humid, and heavy take
off and a very close encounter with a line of trees. It also cleaned
the wing tips lights right off.

Even with that kind of damage the FBO found nothing out of kilter with
the spars, or attach points.

Now, that was a few years back and I may not have the dimensions
exact, but the point was no damage to the spar, or carry through.

Which reminds me, that same plane some years back, had an off runway
excursion that ended up with the nose strut being broken and a prop
strike (No that wasn't me either*) <:-))

The pilot had been flying late in the day and on coming back to the
airport discovered the pilot controlled lighting did not come on.
There was a bright, full moon and the ground was snow covered making
the runway stand out so he figured .. No problem. Unfortunately there
was a problem. When he was in the flare he discovered that runway
that stood out so well against the snow was now almost invisible. He
said he was doing OK until he saw the edge of the runway drift by.

He could have easily landed between the runway and taxiway as well.
The tail draggers do it all the time, but unfortunately he was
carrying extra speed. Wayyy to much extra speed. He sat it down on
the snow covered sod and was doing well until he reached a crossing
taxiway. Even the taxiway presented no problem, but the shallow ditch
on the other side did. He went down through the wide, shallow, ditch
and back up on the sod where he stopped.

Even at this point he was almost OK, but he figured he'd just taxi
back as he only had to turn slightly to catch the drive he had just
missed, that crosses the ditch. Unfortunately he didn't know the nose
strut was already broken. When he applied power it just fell back,
dropping the nose and resulting in a prop strike.

Cherokees are a tad nose heavy, but nothing like the 235/Dakota. One
thing to check on them is fire wall wrinkles, just like on the Cessna
182s.

* (Like most pilots I have done my fair share of "dumb stunts", but
these are not among them) <:-))

BTW, that 180 is still flying and I think it's had about 7000 hours
since the off runway excursion and maybe 5,000 since the "bump job".
I know they've worn out 2 engines going through TBO twice on each.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[George Patterson]

C wrote:
>
> Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
> was worth mentioning or repairing correctly.

Perhaps he didn't notice at the time.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[C]

Oh, he noticed alright... He shot a couple cherry-max rivets up from
the bottom into the flange that had torn away from the belly skin.
Didn't even get them tight! That's the whole half-assed repair he did
on this damage. You can see the rivets in the first picture.

Chuck



On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 03:30:01 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>C wrote:
>>
>> Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
>> was worth mentioning or repairing correctly.
>
>Perhaps he didn't notice at the time.
>
>George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

[Chuck]

Well,

For anyone who was following -- we finished up the last of the repairs
yesterday and the last paperwork today. And I took her out for an
hour or so to check everything.

I'll have to post the whole story soon, when I have a bit of time.
But I learned a lot about FAA rules, 337s, DERs, 8110.3s, and other
red tape that comes with repairing damage to a certified plane. It
might help others -- but it IS one big pain!!!

Of course, it wasn't helped by a local FSDO Airworthyness Inspector
who didn't know his **** and kept pulling rules out of thin air. My
A&P and IA laughed most of the time and blew him off -- but it kept
putting a stop to the repair process and drew it out to three weeks to
do a three day job. That's OK, I'm filing a formal complaint -- we'll
see how much he learns after that...


Chuck
N7398W




On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:28:58 GMT, C > wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>I ran into a little problem today.
>
>Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
>mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
>Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
>back seat.
>
>The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
>be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
>coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
>outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.
>
>However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
>-- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
>small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
>a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
>the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.
>
>Has anyone run into this problem before? I'd love to hear what had to
>be done to repair/replace the damage. Maybe someone knows of a 337
>that had been done to repair similar damage??? It would sure help my
>mechanic who is a little unsure of where to start in the repair
>process.
>
>Thanks guys...
>
>
>
>Chuck
>N7398W

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:41:25 GMT, Chuck > wrote:

>Of course, it wasn't helped by a local FSDO Airworthyness Inspector
>who didn't know his **** and kept pulling rules out of thin air. My
>A&P and IA laughed most of the time and blew him off -- but it kept
>putting a stop to the repair process and drew it out to three weeks to
>do a three day job. That's OK, I'm filing a formal complaint -- we'll
>see how much he learns after that...

Picking a fight with the FAA? Careful - don't get Bob Hoover'ed.

[[email protected]]

Chuck > wrote:
: Well,

: For anyone who was following -- we finished up the last of the repairs
: yesterday and the last paperwork today. And I took her out for an
: hour or so to check everything.

: I'll have to post the whole story soon, when I have a bit of time.
: But I learned a lot about FAA rules, 337s, DERs, 8110.3s, and other
: red tape that comes with repairing damage to a certified plane. It
: might help others -- but it IS one big pain!!!

I'm very interested to hear about it.

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************