Fun weekend buying an Arrow (long)

[Jack Allison]

A few more details on my Arrow buying adventure this weekend. Sorry, no
pictures posted yet but I did send a couple to Jay H. for an appropriate
update (as in "Jay, could you do me a favor and replace the picture of
the rental C-172 with pictures of much nicer airplane").

Saturday: Flew commercially from Sacramento to Denver and had my first
chance to lay eyes on N2104T, located at Front Range airport. It was
everything the TAP pictures had shown, and then some (especially after
reviewing the logs). I had a chance to meet the A&P that has been doing
the maintenance and the instructor that would provide my first hour of
dual in the Arrow. Flew for 1.2 hours doing some basic maneuvers
followed by three landings. It was great. N2104T flies straight and
performed nicely given the density altitude of the Denver area. By this
time, I'm well pleased and really thinking we've scored the nicest '71
Arrow on the planet.

Sunday: Early start, I meet with the A&P to review the logs. Logs are
very clean. The plane just came out of annual last week and has a new
fuel pump and forward spinner bracket. Reviewed the logs which answered
most of the questions I'd been wondering about. Had a chance to poke
around the plane a bit more as we pulled the cowl and some inspection
panels. Everything is nice and clean. No leaks anywhere, Tail cone
area looks immaculate, the A&P answers all my questions and fills in a
lot of information from his own history with the plane. After a few
hours of this, we're finished and I have a chance to sit down with the
logs and crawl around the plane by myself as I'm waiting for one partner
and our CFII to fly in from Sacramento. They show up and we review
everything I've gone over with the A&P. More questions are
asked/answered, we meet with the owner for more questions/answers then
close the deal. Time to start the journey West...after a few more hours
of returning rental cars, checking weather, running W&B numbers, etc.

Sunday afternoon, approx. 4:00 pm. We're off and pretty much heading
South as there are reports of severe turbulence over the Rockies. The
Northern route home would have been much shorter but a front is moving
through the Salt Lake City area where we'd planned to spend the night
so, southward it was. Stopped for the night at Farmington, NM and had a
big steak dinner to celebrate. Life is good.

Monday Morning: We launch from Farmington, my first chance to fly a leg
of the return journey. Weather was pretty good as we headed towards AZ.
We encountered some moderate turbulence along the way and it was
pretty much clear below 12000 until we were closer to Kingman, AZ, the
first fuel stop. Ceilings lowered a bit such that we had to fly around a
certain ridge line between us and the airport and the winds were pretty
strong but pretty much right down the runway. After fueling, we
discover that the restaurant is closed. Ah, time for the first of what
would be two vending machine meals for the day.

By the time we launch from Kingman, the sun was out and the wind wasn't
quite as bad. Off towards Bakersfield, CA where we hope to actually
eat a decent meal. I almost took a nap in the back seat during part of
this leg.

Monday afternoon: We landed at Bakersfield and gassed up. We're
looking at the time and since we wanted to make it home before dark, we
opt for the 2nd vending machine meal of the day and I flew the last leg
to MCC (former McClellan AFB) where we have a hanger, at least for this
month. The hanger was an unknown until the return trip as we have
several irons in the fire and took what first came open.

As we're descending into the Sacramento area, our CFII asks if we know
about how the gear indicator bulbs come out and how to quickly test for
a burned out bulb. He demonstrates and I think nothing much of
it...until I drop the gear and only get two in the green. We quickly
swap the left/right main bulbs and see get a green on the left main.
All this happens as I'm flying the pattern (a good experience in
"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate"). So, two green plus one green equals
three in the green. Good, I can continue turning base to final and
don't have to do a go around to troubleshoot. Phew. Landed, parked,
unloaded the plane and headed home. I was one tired puppy.

I'm still tired...but grinning just like after the first solo whenever I
think "Hey, I own an airplane".

If anyone wants to see a picture, drop me an e-mail. I'll post them
somewhere but have a few other things going on right now.

This weekend, I get to fly with our instructor and, hopefully, finish
off the insurance mandated dual time then see how comfortable I feel
flying solo. I'll probably log the required dual and solo time in the
next month then I can look forward to carrying passengers. Oh ya, that
and continue with my instrument rating.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Student Arrow Owner

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jim Burns]

Great story Jack! Sounds like you had a real pilots adventure getting
home... think think think... fly around weather... stay safe... and eat out
of vending machines!

Tip on the 3 greens... remember that the panel lights will dim the gear
lights.... if you don't get 3 green, make sure the panel lights are off....
also the rheostat (or what ever dims them) can fail... ask me how I know,
rather ask the fire department at GRR how we found out together! Came out of
the clouds, turned the panel lights off, but no greenys... switched bulbs,
checked circuit breakers, cycled gear, you name it... no greenys. Tower
said they thought the gear looked down.
Landed verrrry gently.... and without incident.

Remember... the most common gear up landings are made.....

in amphibions on water!! :)

GUMPS on every leg,
Jim

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> A few more details on my Arrow buying adventure this weekend. Sorry, no
> pictures posted yet but I did send a couple to Jay H. for an appropriate
> update (as in "Jay, could you do me a favor and replace the picture of
> the rental C-172 with pictures of much nicer airplane").
>
> Saturday: Flew commercially from Sacramento to Denver and had my first
> chance to lay eyes on N2104T, located at Front Range airport. It was
> everything the TAP pictures had shown, and then some (especially after
> reviewing the logs). I had a chance to meet the A&P that has been doing
> the maintenance and the instructor that would provide my first hour of
> dual in the Arrow. Flew for 1.2 hours doing some basic maneuvers
> followed by three landings. It was great. N2104T flies straight and
> performed nicely given the density altitude of the Denver area. By this
> time, I'm well pleased and really thinking we've scored the nicest '71
> Arrow on the planet.
>
> Sunday: Early start, I meet with the A&P to review the logs. Logs are
> very clean. The plane just came out of annual last week and has a new
> fuel pump and forward spinner bracket. Reviewed the logs which answered
> most of the questions I'd been wondering about. Had a chance to poke
> around the plane a bit more as we pulled the cowl and some inspection
> panels. Everything is nice and clean. No leaks anywhere, Tail cone
> area looks immaculate, the A&P answers all my questions and fills in a
> lot of information from his own history with the plane. After a few
> hours of this, we're finished and I have a chance to sit down with the
> logs and crawl around the plane by myself as I'm waiting for one partner
> and our CFII to fly in from Sacramento. They show up and we review
> everything I've gone over with the A&P. More questions are
> asked/answered, we meet with the owner for more questions/answers then
> close the deal. Time to start the journey West...after a few more hours
> of returning rental cars, checking weather, running W&B numbers, etc.
>
> Sunday afternoon, approx. 4:00 pm. We're off and pretty much heading
> South as there are reports of severe turbulence over the Rockies. The
> Northern route home would have been much shorter but a front is moving
> through the Salt Lake City area where we'd planned to spend the night
> so, southward it was. Stopped for the night at Farmington, NM and had a
> big steak dinner to celebrate. Life is good.
>
> Monday Morning: We launch from Farmington, my first chance to fly a leg
> of the return journey. Weather was pretty good as we headed towards AZ.
> We encountered some moderate turbulence along the way and it was
> pretty much clear below 12000 until we were closer to Kingman, AZ, the
> first fuel stop. Ceilings lowered a bit such that we had to fly around a
> certain ridge line between us and the airport and the winds were pretty
> strong but pretty much right down the runway. After fueling, we
> discover that the restaurant is closed. Ah, time for the first of what
> would be two vending machine meals for the day.
>
> By the time we launch from Kingman, the sun was out and the wind wasn't
> quite as bad. Off towards Bakersfield, CA where we hope to actually
> eat a decent meal. I almost took a nap in the back seat during part of
> this leg.
>
> Monday afternoon: We landed at Bakersfield and gassed up. We're
> looking at the time and since we wanted to make it home before dark, we
> opt for the 2nd vending machine meal of the day and I flew the last leg
> to MCC (former McClellan AFB) where we have a hanger, at least for this
> month. The hanger was an unknown until the return trip as we have
> several irons in the fire and took what first came open.
>
> As we're descending into the Sacramento area, our CFII asks if we know
> about how the gear indicator bulbs come out and how to quickly test for
> a burned out bulb. He demonstrates and I think nothing much of
> it...until I drop the gear and only get two in the green. We quickly
> swap the left/right main bulbs and see get a green on the left main.
> All this happens as I'm flying the pattern (a good experience in
> "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate"). So, two green plus one green equals
> three in the green. Good, I can continue turning base to final and
> don't have to do a go around to troubleshoot. Phew. Landed, parked,
> unloaded the plane and headed home. I was one tired puppy.
>
> I'm still tired...but grinning just like after the first solo whenever I
> think "Hey, I own an airplane".
>
> If anyone wants to see a picture, drop me an e-mail. I'll post them
> somewhere but have a few other things going on right now.
>
> This weekend, I get to fly with our instructor and, hopefully, finish
> off the insurance mandated dual time then see how comfortable I feel
> flying solo. I'll probably log the required dual and solo time in the
> next month then I can look forward to carrying passengers. Oh ya, that
> and continue with my instrument rating.
>
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL-IA Student-Student Arrow Owner
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Congrats on the 'O' part of AOPA.

I too, had an experience w/ no greens when I was getting my complex rating
for the Commercial. It turned out to be the rheostat. My wet behind the
ears CFII didn't even figure it out. I did by going over everything on the
panel.

--

Enjoy, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

VOsborne2 at charter dot net
"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> Great story Jack! Sounds like you had a real pilots adventure getting
> home... think think think... fly around weather... stay safe... and eat
> out
> of vending machines!
>
> Tip on the 3 greens... remember that the panel lights will dim the gear
> lights.... if you don't get 3 green, make sure the panel lights are
> off....
> also the rheostat (or what ever dims them) can fail... ask me how I know,
> rather ask the fire department at GRR how we found out together! Came out
> of
> the clouds, turned the panel lights off, but no greenys... switched bulbs,
> checked circuit breakers, cycled gear, you name it... no greenys. Tower
> said they thought the gear looked down.
> Landed verrrry gently.... and without incident.
>
> Remember... the most common gear up landings are made.....
>
> in amphibions on water!! :)
>
> GUMPS on every leg,
> Jim
>
> "Jack Allison" > wrote in message
> ...
>> A few more details on my Arrow buying adventure this weekend. Sorry, no
>> pictures posted yet but I did send a couple to Jay H. for an appropriate
>> update (as in "Jay, could you do me a favor and replace the picture of
>> the rental C-172 with pictures of much nicer airplane").
>>
>> Saturday: Flew commercially from Sacramento to Denver and had my first
>> chance to lay eyes on N2104T, located at Front Range airport. It was
>> everything the TAP pictures had shown, and then some (especially after
>> reviewing the logs). I had a chance to meet the A&P that has been doing
>> the maintenance and the instructor that would provide my first hour of
>> dual in the Arrow. Flew for 1.2 hours doing some basic maneuvers
>> followed by three landings. It was great. N2104T flies straight and
>> performed nicely given the density altitude of the Denver area. By this
>> time, I'm well pleased and really thinking we've scored the nicest '71
>> Arrow on the planet.
>>
>> Sunday: Early start, I meet with the A&P to review the logs. Logs are
>> very clean. The plane just came out of annual last week and has a new
>> fuel pump and forward spinner bracket. Reviewed the logs which answered
>> most of the questions I'd been wondering about. Had a chance to poke
>> around the plane a bit more as we pulled the cowl and some inspection
>> panels. Everything is nice and clean. No leaks anywhere, Tail cone
>> area looks immaculate, the A&P answers all my questions and fills in a
>> lot of information from his own history with the plane. After a few
>> hours of this, we're finished and I have a chance to sit down with the
>> logs and crawl around the plane by myself as I'm waiting for one partner
>> and our CFII to fly in from Sacramento. They show up and we review
>> everything I've gone over with the A&P. More questions are
>> asked/answered, we meet with the owner for more questions/answers then
>> close the deal. Time to start the journey West...after a few more hours
>> of returning rental cars, checking weather, running W&B numbers, etc.
>>
>> Sunday afternoon, approx. 4:00 pm. We're off and pretty much heading
>> South as there are reports of severe turbulence over the Rockies. The
>> Northern route home would have been much shorter but a front is moving
>> through the Salt Lake City area where we'd planned to spend the night
>> so, southward it was. Stopped for the night at Farmington, NM and had a
>> big steak dinner to celebrate. Life is good.
>>
>> Monday Morning: We launch from Farmington, my first chance to fly a leg
>> of the return journey. Weather was pretty good as we headed towards AZ.
>> We encountered some moderate turbulence along the way and it was
>> pretty much clear below 12000 until we were closer to Kingman, AZ, the
>> first fuel stop. Ceilings lowered a bit such that we had to fly around a
>> certain ridge line between us and the airport and the winds were pretty
>> strong but pretty much right down the runway. After fueling, we
>> discover that the restaurant is closed. Ah, time for the first of what
>> would be two vending machine meals for the day.
>>
>> By the time we launch from Kingman, the sun was out and the wind wasn't
>> quite as bad. Off towards Bakersfield, CA where we hope to actually
>> eat a decent meal. I almost took a nap in the back seat during part of
>> this leg.
>>
>> Monday afternoon: We landed at Bakersfield and gassed up. We're
>> looking at the time and since we wanted to make it home before dark, we
>> opt for the 2nd vending machine meal of the day and I flew the last leg
>> to MCC (former McClellan AFB) where we have a hanger, at least for this
>> month. The hanger was an unknown until the return trip as we have
>> several irons in the fire and took what first came open.
>>
>> As we're descending into the Sacramento area, our CFII asks if we know
>> about how the gear indicator bulbs come out and how to quickly test for
>> a burned out bulb. He demonstrates and I think nothing much of
>> it...until I drop the gear and only get two in the green. We quickly
>> swap the left/right main bulbs and see get a green on the left main.
>> All this happens as I'm flying the pattern (a good experience in
>> "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate"). So, two green plus one green equals
>> three in the green. Good, I can continue turning base to final and
>> don't have to do a go around to troubleshoot. Phew. Landed, parked,
>> unloaded the plane and headed home. I was one tired puppy.
>>
>> I'm still tired...but grinning just like after the first solo whenever I
>> think "Hey, I own an airplane".
>>
>> If anyone wants to see a picture, drop me an e-mail. I'll post them
>> somewhere but have a few other things going on right now.
>>
>> This weekend, I get to fly with our instructor and, hopefully, finish
>> off the insurance mandated dual time then see how comfortable I feel
>> flying solo. I'll probably log the required dual and solo time in the
>> next month then I can look forward to carrying passengers. Oh ya, that
>> and continue with my instrument rating.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jack Allison
>> PP-ASEL-IA Student-Student Arrow Owner
>>
>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
>> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
>> you will always long to return"
>> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>>
>> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)
>
>

[Paul kgyy]

Enjoy the Arrow - it's one of the great airplanes. Be thankful for
that free-fall landing gear. I landed with 2 green last year when one
of the squat switch wires broke from old age - strong pucker factor.

[Tony]

No more wondering what jerk last flew the airplane, huh? Even better,
since you'll be in the same airplane all of the time you'll pretty soon
figure it it knows how to read your mind. Think it, it does it. Took
mine (an M20J) about 20 hours to figure out what I was trying to do.
Then it began to really be fun -- you'd know exactly where it would
touch down, if you were a couple of knots fast on final it felt awful!
I think you'll find hand flying the thing IFR great fun, too, holding
altitude within a needle width gets easy (but in my case having glide
slope and localizer centered near the ground still takes lots of
attention).

You'll also figure out how to make it sip gas: low rpms, careful
leaning, and the like. The IO360 that pulled the Mooney around on long
trips eastbound (10 or 12 thousand feet) would be very happy drinking
about 8 GPH. That provides all kinds of endurance (we carried about 60
gallons useable).

About fuel management --for what it's worth I liked to taxi out on one
tank, switch over to the take-off tank for run-up -- I'd break the hand
of anyone who tried to switch tanks afterrunup and before takeoff!--. I
figured at that point I proved both tanks would run the engine. I'd fly
away half the tank I took off on, switch over, and take most of the
fuel off the other tank. One of the thought processes was that the
first tank still had enough in it to get me back to where I started
from when I switched. (East coast based, nearly all first legs were
into a headwind). No matter what my flight plan said, when I switched
back to the takeoff tank (now I had somewhat more than 25% of the fuel
left) I was going to land for gas.

That fuel management scheme was part of our own checklist that was a
bunch more thought out than the one the airplane came with. (Are your
navs and coms set up for the miss inbound of the marker? Ours were. ADF
was almost always tuned to a strong station near our destination, it
turns out the adf needle makes a good replacement for the DG should it
fail. That was part of our en route checklist.)

There's a thought. Other pilots, chip in here. What things do you do to
keep yourself safe that are not usually taught? I've offered a couple
of obvious ones, you've got to have better ones.

[Steve Foley]

I burn fuel from the tank that the minute hand on my clock is pointing to.
That way I can always tell by looking if I remembered to switch tanks last
1/2 hour.

My tie-down is fifty feet from the runway. I don't switch tanks on the
ground for this reason. I'd hate to switch to a bad one only to find out at
100' that it's bad. I'd rather find out 1/2 hour later, at several thousand
feet. My opinion will probably change the first time I find bad gas in one
of my tanks.




"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> No more wondering what jerk last flew the airplane, huh? Even better,
> since you'll be in the same airplane all of the time you'll pretty soon
> figure it it knows how to read your mind. Think it, it does it. Took
> mine (an M20J) about 20 hours to figure out what I was trying to do.
> Then it began to really be fun -- you'd know exactly where it would
> touch down, if you were a couple of knots fast on final it felt awful!
> I think you'll find hand flying the thing IFR great fun, too, holding
> altitude within a needle width gets easy (but in my case having glide
> slope and localizer centered near the ground still takes lots of
> attention).
>
> You'll also figure out how to make it sip gas: low rpms, careful
> leaning, and the like. The IO360 that pulled the Mooney around on long
> trips eastbound (10 or 12 thousand feet) would be very happy drinking
> about 8 GPH. That provides all kinds of endurance (we carried about 60
> gallons useable).
>
> About fuel management --for what it's worth I liked to taxi out on one
> tank, switch over to the take-off tank for run-up -- I'd break the hand
> of anyone who tried to switch tanks afterrunup and before takeoff!--. I
> figured at that point I proved both tanks would run the engine. I'd fly
> away half the tank I took off on, switch over, and take most of the
> fuel off the other tank. One of the thought processes was that the
> first tank still had enough in it to get me back to where I started
> from when I switched. (East coast based, nearly all first legs were
> into a headwind). No matter what my flight plan said, when I switched
> back to the takeoff tank (now I had somewhat more than 25% of the fuel
> left) I was going to land for gas.
>
> That fuel management scheme was part of our own checklist that was a
> bunch more thought out than the one the airplane came with. (Are your
> navs and coms set up for the miss inbound of the marker? Ours were. ADF
> was almost always tuned to a strong station near our destination, it
> turns out the adf needle makes a good replacement for the DG should it
> fail. That was part of our en route checklist.)
>
> There's a thought. Other pilots, chip in here. What things do you do to
> keep yourself safe that are not usually taught? I've offered a couple
> of obvious ones, you've got to have better ones.
>

[Ross Richardson]

Jack Allison wrote:

> A few more details on my Arrow buying adventure this weekend. Sorry,
> no pictures posted yet but I did send a couple to Jay H. for an
> appropriate update (as in "Jay, could you do me a favor and replace
> the picture of the rental C-172 with pictures of much nicer airplane").
>
> Saturday: Flew commercially from Sacramento to Denver and had my first
> chance to lay eyes on N2104T, located at Front Range airport. It was
> everything the TAP pictures had shown, and then some (especially after
> reviewing the logs). I had a chance to meet the A&P that has been
> doing the maintenance and the instructor that would provide my first
> hour of dual in the Arrow. Flew for 1.2 hours doing some basic
> maneuvers followed by three landings. It was great. N2104T flies
> straight and performed nicely given the density altitude of the Denver
> area. By this time, I'm well pleased and really thinking we've scored
> the nicest '71 Arrow on the planet.
>
> Sunday: Early start, I meet with the A&P to review the logs. Logs are
> very clean. The plane just came out of annual last week and has a new
> fuel pump and forward spinner bracket. Reviewed the logs which
> answered most of the questions I'd been wondering about. Had a chance
> to poke around the plane a bit more as we pulled the cowl and some
> inspection panels. Everything is nice and clean. No leaks anywhere,
> Tail cone area looks immaculate, the A&P answers all my questions and
> fills in a lot of information from his own history with the plane.
> After a few hours of this, we're finished and I have a chance to sit
> down with the logs and crawl around the plane by myself as I'm waiting
> for one partner and our CFII to fly in from Sacramento. They show up
> and we review everything I've gone over with the A&P. More questions
> are asked/answered, we meet with the owner for more questions/answers
> then close the deal. Time to start the journey West...after a few
> more hours of returning rental cars, checking weather, running W&B
> numbers, etc.
>
> Sunday afternoon, approx. 4:00 pm. We're off and pretty much heading
> South as there are reports of severe turbulence over the Rockies. The
> Northern route home would have been much shorter but a front is moving
> through the Salt Lake City area where we'd planned to spend the night
> so, southward it was. Stopped for the night at Farmington, NM and had
> a big steak dinner to celebrate. Life is good.
>
> Monday Morning: We launch from Farmington, my first chance to fly a
> leg of the return journey. Weather was pretty good as we headed
> towards AZ. We encountered some moderate turbulence along the way and
> it was pretty much clear below 12000 until we were closer to Kingman,
> AZ, the first fuel stop. Ceilings lowered a bit such that we had to
> fly around a certain ridge line between us and the airport and the
> winds were pretty strong but pretty much right down the runway. After
> fueling, we discover that the restaurant is closed. Ah, time for the
> first of what would be two vending machine meals for the day.
>
> By the time we launch from Kingman, the sun was out and the wind
> wasn't quite as bad. Off towards Bakersfield, CA where we hope to
> actually eat a decent meal. I almost took a nap in the back seat
> during part of this leg.
>
> Monday afternoon: We landed at Bakersfield and gassed up. We're
> looking at the time and since we wanted to make it home before dark,
> we opt for the 2nd vending machine meal of the day and I flew the last
> leg to MCC (former McClellan AFB) where we have a hanger, at least for
> this month. The hanger was an unknown until the return trip as we
> have several irons in the fire and took what first came open.
>
> As we're descending into the Sacramento area, our CFII asks if we know
> about how the gear indicator bulbs come out and how to quickly test
> for a burned out bulb. He demonstrates and I think nothing much of
> it...until I drop the gear and only get two in the green. We quickly
> swap the left/right main bulbs and see get a green on the left main.
> All this happens as I'm flying the pattern (a good experience in
> "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate"). So, two green plus one green equals
> three in the green. Good, I can continue turning base to final and
> don't have to do a go around to troubleshoot. Phew. Landed, parked,
> unloaded the plane and headed home. I was one tired puppy.
>
> I'm still tired...but grinning just like after the first solo whenever
> I think "Hey, I own an airplane".
>
> If anyone wants to see a picture, drop me an e-mail. I'll post them
> somewhere but have a few other things going on right now.
>
> This weekend, I get to fly with our instructor and, hopefully, finish
> off the insurance mandated dual time then see how comfortable I feel
> flying solo. I'll probably log the required dual and solo time in the
> next month then I can look forward to carrying passengers. Oh ya,
> that and continue with my instrument rating.
>
>
How did you find the performance, TAS, fuel burn, etc?

Ross

[Tony]

Sounds like you have a well thought out plan, too. I think it might
have been in the owner's manual that said something like "switch to
most full fuel tank" before takeoff, and after run-up. That's the worst
possible time to change tanks. The only advantage my fuel scheme might
have is, after taking most of the fuel from the second tank, I want to
be in a landing pattern or at least cleared for a landing. It gives me
a fairly secure 25% fuel remaining plan. I'd done a couple of really
long flights, fuel limitations (and pilot bladder limits, if truth was
to be told) were limiting factors.

[jsmith]

Fuel tanks are switched approximately each hour. Fuel tanks are ALWAYS
switched overhead or in close proximity to an enroute airport.

Tony wrote:
> About fuel management --for what it's worth I liked to taxi out on one
> tank, switch over to the take-off tank for run-up -- I'd break the hand
> of anyone who tried to switch tanks afterrunup and before takeoff!--. I
> figured at that point I proved both tanks would run the engine. I'd fly
> away half the tank I took off on, switch over, and take most of the
> fuel off the other tank. One of the thought processes was that the
> first tank still had enough in it to get me back to where I started
> from when I switched. (East coast based, nearly all first legs were
> into a headwind). No matter what my flight plan said, when I switched
> back to the takeoff tank (now I had somewhat more than 25% of the fuel
> left) I was going to land for gas.

[Morgans]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote

>How did you find the performance, TAS, fuel burn, etc?

Ross - be kind to dialup users; trim your responses. You sent a 6kb post
for less than 1kb of response.

Thanks.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

On 6-Apr-2005, "Paul kgyy" > wrote:

> Enjoy the Arrow - it's one of the great airplanes. Be thankful for
> that free-fall landing gear. I landed with 2 green last year when one
> of the squat switch wires broke from old age - strong pucker factor.


Exactly the same thing happened to me in our Arrow IV. What made it
interesting is that it happened when I lowered the gear to slow down in the
looooong line of airplanes headed in to land at OSH.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[[email protected]]

On 6-Apr-2005, "Tony" > wrote:

> I'd fly away half the tank I took off on, switch over, and take most of
> the
> fuel off the other tank.


An Arrow will get pretty wing-heavy with one tank full and the other at
half. This is particularly true on newer Arrows with 72 gallons usable
fuel. What I do is fly for 45 min on the "takeoff" tank and then switch
every hour. Keeps the fuel load balanced within a few gallons.
--
-Elliott Drucker

[Ross Richardson]

Morgans wrote:

>"Ross Richardson" > wrote
>
>
>
>>How did you find the performance, TAS, fuel burn, etc?
>>
>>
>
> Ross - be kind to dialup users; trim your responses. You sent a 6kb post
>for less than 1kb of response.
>
>Thanks.
>
>
Yes, sorry about that. I will do better.

Ross

[Highflyer]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:JuS4e.23$Xm3.18@trndny01...
>I burn fuel from the tank that the minute hand on my clock is pointing to.
> That way I can always tell by looking if I remembered to switch tanks last
> 1/2 hour.
>
> My tie-down is fifty feet from the runway. I don't switch tanks on the
> ground for this reason. I'd hate to switch to a bad one only to find out
> at
> 100' that it's bad. I'd rather find out 1/2 hour later, at several
> thousand
> feet. My opinion will probably change the first time I find bad gas in one
> of my tanks.
>

One little trick I learned after picking an airplane up from a hayfield
because the fuel selector shaft broke. Never switch fuel tanks unless you
can see a place to land about one minute ahead! :-) Airports are best, but
any good field will do.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Jay Honeck]

Just curious, Jack: How did an Arrow owned by this guy in North
Carolina end up for sale out in Denver?

************************************************** *
N-number : N2104T
Aircraft Serial Number : 28R-7135048
Aircraft Manufacturer : PIPER
Model : PA-28R-200
Engine Manufacturer : LYCOMING
Model : I0360 SER
Aircraft Year : 1971
Owner Name : PHILLIPS DAVID T
Owner Address : PO BOX 720
KENANSVILLE, NC, 28349-0720
Type of Owner : Individual
Registration Date : 22-Nov-1999
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Normal
********************************************

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Journeyman]

In article . com>, Tony wrote:
> have been in the owner's manual that said something like "switch to
> most full fuel tank" before takeoff, and after run-up. That's the worst
> possible time to change tanks.

Ack. Have to agree with you, but I think you misread the instructions.
I start and taxi on one tank, then run up on the other with takeoff on
the same tank as the runup. That way, you know you have good fuel in
both tanks.


Morris

[Robert M. Gary]

Jack Allison wrote:
> Saturday: Flew commercially from Sacramento to Denver and had my
first
> chance to lay eyes on N2104T, located at Front Range airport.

Do you live near Sacramento? I live in Sacramento. When I saw that N
number I went searching. Turns out that I did some teaching in N2105T
(one number different) out of Cameron Park several years ago.

Enjoy your new airplane. If you need any advice on good and bad shops
in the area (we certainly have both) let me know!

-Robert, CFI M20 owner

[Newps]

> In article . com>, Tony wrote:
>
>>have been in the owner's manual that said something like "switch to
>>most full fuel tank" before takeoff, and after run-up. That's the worst
>>possible time to change tanks.

How long would the engine run if you selected an empty tank? My 182
doesn't even go 30 seconds at idle after I turn the gas off.

[Mike Spera]

One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
you flew in on". The theory being that takeoff is not the time to "test"
whether a tank you just switched to is blocked, the fuel valve
malfunctioned, a tank is empty (cuz you forgot to check it), a tank you
just switched to is full of water, etc.

If you switch just prior to takeoff or just prior to runup, you have
about 1 or 2 minutes of flight until the carb bowl and gascolator
empties in a small Piper. Then, you get an empty fuel line or whatever
was in the other tank. Usually, you are not in a very good position to
deal with no fuel or contaminated fuel at the end of that short time period.

Opinions on this one vary. I leave the valve where it is and switch
after burning off about 5 gallons (climb to 2500' plus 10 minutes of
cruise).

Good Luck,
Mike

Journeyman wrote:

> In article . com>, Tony wrote:
>
>>have been in the owner's manual that said something like "switch to
>>most full fuel tank" before takeoff, and after run-up. That's the worst
>>possible time to change tanks.
>
>
> Ack. Have to agree with you, but I think you misread the instructions.
> I start and taxi on one tank, then run up on the other with takeoff on
> the same tank as the runup. That way, you know you have good fuel in
> both tanks.
>
>
> Morris

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[Grumman-581]

"Mike Spera" wrote in message ...
> Opinions on this one vary. I leave the valve where it is and switch
> after burning off about 5 gallons (climb to 2500' plus 10 minutes of
> cruise).

For my first tank switch, I like to be over something that I wouldn't mind
landing on or at a high enough altitude that having the engine stop would
not be too exciting of an experience... Subsequent switches, I'm not as
paranoid about...

[Don Hammer]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:14:17 GMT, "Grumman-581" >
wrote:

>"Mike Spera" wrote in message ...
>> Opinions on this one vary. I leave the valve where it is and switch
>> after burning off about 5 gallons (climb to 2500' plus 10 minutes of
>> cruise).
>
>For my first tank switch, I like to be over something that I wouldn't mind
>landing on or at a high enough altitude that having the engine stop would
>not be too exciting of an experience... Subsequent switches, I'm not as
>paranoid about...
>

I takeoff on the tank I did the runup on.

[George Patterson]

Mike Spera wrote:
> One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
> you flew in on".

I take off on "both." If either one works, I have gas.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Bob Chilcoat]

Easy for you, George. The Archer doesn't have that position on the valve
:-(

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:beF7e.5519$4v3.1682@trndny03...
> Mike Spera wrote:
> > One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
> > you flew in on".
>
> I take off on "both." If either one works, I have gas.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

[Dave Stadt]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:beF7e.5519$4v3.1682@trndny03...
> Mike Spera wrote:
> > One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
> > you flew in on".
>
> I take off on "both." If either one works, I have gas.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

Some of us don't have that option.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

George Patterson wrote:
> Mike Spera wrote:
>> One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
>> you flew in on".
>
> I take off on "both." If either one works, I have gas.


PA-32s and C-402s lack that ability, among many others. In fact, on the C-402
if you chose to take off on the aux tanks first, you just blew fuel overboard.
You had to create room in the mains for the fuel. The mains fed the engines.
The aux fed the mains. Therefore you take off on the mains and fly for an hour.
THEN you switch to the aux and fly for another 35 minutes or so, then switch
back to the mains for the rest of the flight.

Both? Must be talking about Cessna.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mike Spera]

Well, their point is that, by changing from the setting you flew in on,
you may introduce the possibility of failure. Namely, if you fly in on
the left tank and take off on both, the water in the right tank may ruin
your day. Also, if the fuel selector malfunctions, you may be between
settings and have "neither". I am not familiar with the specific designs
of these valves, so this may not be an issue. Anyway, many of us dont't
have a "both" setting. So, that introduces other possible failures like
the tank you switched to is empty.

Thanks for pointing out the "both" setting. As I said, some of us don't
have one.

As I said, opinions on this one vary greatly.

Good luck
Mike

> Mike Spera wrote:
>
>> One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
>> you flew in on".
>
>
> I take off on "both." If either one works, I have gas.
>
>

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[Dave Butler]

George Patterson wrote:
> Mike Spera wrote:
>
>> One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
>> you flew in on".
>
>
> I take off on "both." If either one works, I have gas.

Doesn't that also mean that if one of the tanks is contaminated, you're going to
draw the contamination into the engine, with no option of switching to a good
tank (or, at least, you don't know which tank to switch to).

[Peter Duniho]

"Mike Spera" > wrote in message
...
> Well, their point is that, by changing from the setting you flew in on,
> you may introduce the possibility of failure. Namely, if you fly in on the
> left tank and take off on both, the water in the right tank may ruin your
> day.

True. But how often does an engine fail due to fuel exhaustion, versus fuel
contamination? Seems like procedure should take into account the most
common failure mode.

Also, consider that on most flights, you would have had a chance to use both
tanks. By the time of your second departure, you should know whether either
tank is contaminated.

A corallary to all of the above is that if the flight was too short to check
both tanks, it was probably also too short for a fuel shortage to be a
problem. So, one could rationally worry more about contamination after a
second departure following a very short flight.

> Also, if the fuel selector malfunctions, you may be between settings and
> have "neither".

Better for that to happen on the ground than in the air, right?

Pete

[kage]

One helpful point:

When changing fuel tanks, keep your hand on the fuel selector valve for
about 30 more seconds and monitor the fuel pressure gauge.

If the fuel pressure drops or the engine quits your hand will already be on
the valve to re-select the good tank.

In my childhood I flew a Beaver amphibian out of King Salmon. The procedure
to maximize the available fuel was to run the tanks dry from the rear to the
front. A beaver has fuel in the belly in two tanks (a bad place and most
Beaver crashes involve fire.)
I could rest my hand on the fuel selector valve and watch the fuel pressure
gauge. Once the fuel pressure just started to drop the tank could be
switched quickly without the engine quitting.



Karl
"Curator"
N185KG

[George Patterson]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
> Both? Must be talking about Cessna.

Maule.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Ron Natalie]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> Both? Must be talking about Cessna.
>
>
Navions only has a "ON (both) - OFF" selector (unless they have optional
tanks).

[Robert M. Gary]

Mike Spera > wrote in message >...
> One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
> you flew in on". The theory being that takeoff is not the time to "test"
> whether a tank you just switched to is blocked, the fuel valve
> malfunctioned, a tank is empty (cuz you forgot to check it), a tank you
> just switched to is full of water, etc.

Pretty poor theory. It's a haphazardway of avoiding actually managing
your fuel. I'm more of a measure, calculate type of guy myself. I keep
a log of the tanks in flight in my Mooney (I don't have a "both"
selector).
I also don't buy into the "fill the tanks before take off" B.S. You
should know how much fuel you need and how much extra you'll need. I
just don't see putting 8 hours of fuel in my Mooney and pushing around
like an over stuffed whale.
All this reminds me of the Bonanza pilot who declared a fuel emergency
only to discover he had another 3 hours of fuel. He always put 5 hours
in it, but never let it go below 2 hours, he burned 12gal/hr but
caluclated it as 15 gal/hr, etc, etc. All this "extra safety buffer"
just meant he had NO idea how much fuel he had.


-Robert, CFI

[Matt Barrow]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> Mike Spera > wrote in message
>...
> > One well known aviation university teaches you to "fly out on the tank
> > you flew in on". The theory being that takeoff is not the time to "test"
> > whether a tank you just switched to is blocked, the fuel valve
> > malfunctioned, a tank is empty (cuz you forgot to check it), a tank you
> > just switched to is full of water, etc.
>
> Pretty poor theory. It's a haphazardway of avoiding actually managing
> your fuel. I'm more of a measure, calculate type of guy myself. I keep
> a log of the tanks in flight in my Mooney (I don't have a "both"
> selector).
> I also don't buy into the "fill the tanks before take off" B.S. You
> should know how much fuel you need and how much extra you'll need. I
> just don't see putting 8 hours of fuel in my Mooney and pushing around
> like an over stuffed whale.
> All this reminds me of the Bonanza pilot who declared a fuel emergency
> only to discover he had another 3 hours of fuel. He always put 5 hours
> in it, but never let it go below 2 hours, he burned 12gal/hr but
> caluclated it as 15 gal/hr, etc, etc. All this "extra safety buffer"
> just meant he had NO idea how much fuel he had.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html
August 9, 1998

Pelican's Perch #7:
Run That Fuel Tank Dry!

AVweb's John Deakin takes aim at yet another OWT (Old Wive's Tale). While
running a fuel tank dry in your recip powered plane may serve to increase
your heart rate, John explains why it's not such a bad thing at all, and it
is probably a really good idea for most of us. In fact, John explains why
it's one of the first things you ought to do with a new plane and how it
could save your life someday.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> AVweb's John Deakin takes aim at yet another OWT (Old Wive's Tale). While
> running a fuel tank dry in your recip powered plane may serve to increase
> your heart rate, John explains why it's not such a bad thing at all, and it
> is probably a really good idea for most of us. In fact, John explains why
> it's one of the first things you ought to do with a new plane and how it
> could save your life someday.


Flying the old Cherokee Six with four fuel tanks, you'd end up with almost 10
gallons unusable if you didn't run a tank dry occasionally. I tried to never
let it happen with passengers on board. Screwed up once though... probably
scared the hell out of them though nobody said anything about it once I'd
explained what had happened. Mea culpa.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Highflyer]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>> AVweb's John Deakin takes aim at yet another OWT (Old Wive's Tale). While
>> running a fuel tank dry in your recip powered plane may serve to increase
>> your heart rate, John explains why it's not such a bad thing at all, and
>> it
>> is probably a really good idea for most of us. In fact, John explains why
>> it's one of the first things you ought to do with a new plane and how it
>> could save your life someday.
>
>
> Flying the old Cherokee Six with four fuel tanks, you'd end up with almost
> 10 gallons unusable if you didn't run a tank dry occasionally. I tried to
> never let it happen with passengers on board. Screwed up once though...
> probably scared the hell out of them though nobody said anything about it
> once I'd explained what had happened. Mea culpa.
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN

I remember one time in a light twin. I decided to run the auxilliary tanks
dry before returning to the mains so that I would have all of my remaining
fuel in the mains for the approach and landing. I flew an hour on the mains
to get some dump space for the overflow from the injectors and then switched
to the aux tanks. After churning along on the auxs for some little time the
right engine quit. As I was reaching for the fuel selector to switch it
back to the main the left engine quit. The sudden total cessation of engine
noise in midtrip got my passengers rather upset until I got them both making
appropriate noises again and explained to them what had happened and why I
did it that way. :-) Mea Maxima Culpa ...

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )


>
>
>
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Highflyer wrote:
> I remember one time in a light twin. I decided to run the auxilliary tanks
> dry before returning to the mains so that I would have all of my remaining
> fuel in the mains for the approach and landing. I flew an hour on the mains
> to get some dump space for the overflow from the injectors and then switched
> to the aux tanks. After churning along on the auxs for some little time the
> right engine quit. As I was reaching for the fuel selector to switch it
> back to the main the left engine quit. The sudden total cessation of engine
> noise in midtrip got my passengers rather upset until I got them both making
> appropriate noises again and explained to them what had happened and why I
> did it that way. :-) Mea Maxima Culpa ...


I had essentially the same thing happen to me one night coming back from
Cleveland in a C-402. I'd been up for almost 24 hours and was exhausted (the
flight had been scheduled for early the previous morning, cancelled and then
rescheduled as I was getting ready for bed). I had flown all night in a mix of
clouds, occasional icing, and VFR. I was moving auto parts from Shelby, NC to
CLE, then back to CLT (my home base). No passengers; just me.

I took off from Cleveland IFR and my attitude indicator croaked. There was
another one on the copilot's side but I was on top before long so it was no big
deal. I settled down to cruise on the mains. After an hour of hand flying, I
switched over to the auxillary tanks. Then I fell asleep. I woke up to some
yaw and less noise... the left engine had quit! I reached over to switch tanks
and hit the boost pump to get a restart. Then the other one quit before I could
switch that tank. Holy ****! That got my attention. I switched tanks on the
right engine and hit that boost pump. By that time the left engine started. A
moment later the right one came back. I remember complimenting myself on the
accuracy of my fuel leaning.

Whew! I swore to God I'd never fall asleep again while flying. I broke my
promise twice before completing that flight.

What do they say? Any flight that doesn't end up on the 11 o'clock news
couldn't have been all that bad. It wasn't that great though... I fought 70
knot headwinds up to Cleveland (rode home at mach two), suffered a right brake
failure, failed attitude indicator, got to play with ice, had the company credit
card denied twice (at Charlie West and Cleveland), and ran the tanks dry. I
really prefer the dull life.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[John Galban]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
> Whew! I swore to God I'd never fall asleep again while flying. I
broke my
> promise twice before completing that flight.
>

I read many years ago about a corporate pilot who was repositioning a
plane (big twin) from Indiana to Illinois for a morning flight. He'd
been flying all day and was tired. He fell asleep enroute and woke up
just as the last engine died and the sun was coming up. He made a
successful deadstick on a dirt road. When a farmer came along in a
truck, he asked where he was. He was in New Mexico. I would have
loved to have been a fly on the wall when that guy called his boss and
told him the morning flight would be a little late :-))

Weren't there a couple of snoozing airline pilots on a red-eye that
overshot L.A. and were finally awakened well out over the Pacific? I
seem to recall reading about that one in the paper sometime in the 90s.


Tired pilots with autopilots can be a bad combo :-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Morgans]

"John Galban" > wrote

> Tired pilots with autopilots can be a bad combo :-)

Tired pilots withOUT autopilots could be a dead combo. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[John Galban]

Morgans wrote:
> "John Galban" > wrote
>
> > Tired pilots with autopilots can be a bad combo :-)
>
> Tired pilots withOUT autopilots could be a dead combo. ;-)

That depends. I'll admit to having been a bit tired on a few long
haul flights across the country. Due to the (almost constantly)
unbalanced fuel load in my Cherokee, inattention to the controls would
cause the plane to roll left or right almost immediately. That'll get
your attention and adrenaline going. Usually long enough to land for
some fuel and a nap :-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Morgans wrote:
> "John Galban" > wrote
>
>> Tired pilots with autopilots can be a bad combo :-)
>
> Tired pilots withOUT autopilots could be a dead combo. ;-)


No autopilot in that C-402. No copilot either. Just me and my drea... I
mean... thoughts.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Morgans]

I know fellas; just a gag line on an obvious line. There are so many things
wrong, untrue, understated... whatever. I still had to say it. <g>
--
Jim in NC

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Morgans wrote:
> > "John Galban" > wrote
> >
> >> Tired pilots with autopilots can be a bad combo :-)
> >
> > Tired pilots withOUT autopilots could be a dead combo. ;-)
>
>
> No autopilot in that C-402. No copilot either. Just me and my drea... I
> mean... thoughts.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> > AVweb's John Deakin takes aim at yet another OWT (Old Wive's Tale).
While
> > running a fuel tank dry in your recip powered plane may serve to
increase
> > your heart rate, John explains why it's not such a bad thing at all, and
it
> > is probably a really good idea for most of us. In fact, John explains
why
> > it's one of the first things you ought to do with a new plane and how it
> > could save your life someday.
>
>
> Flying the old Cherokee Six with four fuel tanks, you'd end up with almost
10
> gallons unusable if you didn't run a tank dry occasionally. I tried to
never
> let it happen with passengers on board. Screwed up once though...
probably
> scared the hell out of them though nobody said anything about it once I'd
> explained what had happened. Mea culpa.
>

You might want to try Deakin's approach of gathering fuel data when alone
and then be rather cautious of warning passengers that the engine will
"burp" before it happens. One aside is that I'd not recommend it with
passengers that are "Nervous Nellie's" to begin with.

Of all the people that I take as passengers (family and business partners)
all have been around GA a long time and so are comfortable with GA (that
might be a good thread: Those who will fly airlines but not GA). two of my
partners have private tickets, my son has his IR, my daughter her PVT, and
my wife has soloed. They have NO problem with an engine burping.

It is reassuring to know that my useable fuel is actually eight gallons more
than the specs portray...not that I push that foolishly.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
. com...
> Morgans wrote:
> > "John Galban" > wrote
> >
> >> Tired pilots with autopilots can be a bad combo :-)
> >
> > Tired pilots withOUT autopilots could be a dead combo. ;-)
>
>
> No autopilot in that C-402. No copilot either. Just me and my drea... I
> mean... thoughts.
>

So, maybe Shania Twain is your co-pilot?

[Roger]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:56:18 -0500, "Highflyer" > wrote:

>
>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html
>> August 9, 1998
>>
>> Pelican's Perch #7:
>> Run That Fuel Tank Dry!
>>
>> AVweb's John Deakin takes aim at yet another OWT (Old Wive's Tale). While
>> running a fuel tank dry in your recip powered plane may serve to increase
>> your heart rate, John explains why it's not such a bad thing at all, and
>> it
>> is probably a really good idea for most of us. In fact, John explains why
>> it's one of the first things you ought to do with a new plane and how it
>> could save your life someday.
>>
>
>Back in the days when I learned to fly it was common practice to run each
>tank dry in turn. That way you knew precisely where ALL of your remaining
>fuel was located.
>
>Many aircraft had fuel return lines from the engine to allow excess fuel to
>be relieved back to a tank. Most of these fuel return lines would actually
>return several gallons per hour in normal cruise flight.

The Deb is piped up like this but it returns a lot more fuel than a
couple gallons.

It will empty two 10 gallon tanks in a bit over half an hour. It only
burns 13.5 to 14 GPH.

The tank switching sequence is different when the tip tanks are used.
They simply transfer to the adjacent main. Both mains have their own
return line, but the aux tanks return to the left main.

Mains are in front of the spar and CG, aux are to the rear of the spar
and CG, while the tips are on the CG.

4 tank sequence:
45 minutes on left main. Aux till dry or close to it. Now you have a
choice which mainly depends on how far out of balance you are willing
to go. I prefer to go 30 minute intervals starting with the left
tank. You are carrying 5 1/2 hours, no reserve. At 4, I'm looking for
a place to stop.

6 tank sequence:
First requires burning off enough to get the 15 gallons from each tip
into the main. The tips transfer to dry in roughly 45 minutes. You
do this by burning off a minimum from each main and then transferring
while using gas from the mains with the idea that the mains will be
full at the end of the transfer..

You basically end up with the mains and auxes full so then you can do
the 4 tank sequence.

It's a bit of an exercise and you can easily end up flying a bit
lopsided if you miscalculate<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>The early Cherokee Six that I flew charters in back in the sixties and
>seventies had half a dozen tanks and a specific sequence to use them up if
>you didn't want to either vent overflow or exceed the wing bending moments
>due to improper distribution of weight between the fuselage and the wings!
>
>The "Twin Bitch" that I flew in the fifties had fuel tanks all over the
>place. Fuel management in many of these older airplanes is much more
>complicated than the simple "ON-OFF" of the Cessna 150/2 family. :-)
>
>Highflyer
>Highflight Aviation Services
>Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> You might want to try Deakin's approach of gathering fuel data when alone
> and then be rather cautious of warning passengers that the engine will
> "burp" before it happens. One aside is that I'd not recommend it with
> passengers that are "Nervous Nellie's" to begin with.


What I actually tried doing in the Cherokee Six was staging legs that didn't
require me to run things dry. For example, I could fly a C-210 nonstop from UZA
to MYAM (Rock Hill, SC to Marsh Harbour, Bahamas, 650NM) and land with 1.5 hours
of fuel. The Cherokee Six on the same trip required a stop in VRB (Vero Beach,
FL) to take on fuel.

The only time I ever ran a tank dry with people on board came from such a trip.
I had landed on a main and forgot to switch to one of the other tanks and ran it
dry about 1500 feet in the air immediately after takeoff. The silence was
deafening.

I hate when I do stuff like that.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN




Pilot's Prayer: "Dear Lord, please don't let me screw up today. And if I do,
don't let anybody see it."