First Annual Fun - Day 2

[Jon Kraus]

No new gotcha's today... Maybe the exhaust is the biggy and will stay
that way. The A & P said except for the exhaust the Mooney is pretty
clean and passing the inspections with no issues. All the control
surface, landing gear, electrical inspections are pretty much complete.
All the inspections should be finished tomorrow.

He did say that we needed to take care of a couple of tank seepage
points (leaks). I said "Hey it's a Mooney, they are supposed to leak"
but he didn't buy it. Now I get the fun of scraping all the old sealer
off using a couple of plastic scrapers and picks. It sucks but better
me doing it than paying them $60.00 and hour to do it. We will get rid
of the wing staining once and for all... Or at least for now :-)

I also took all the inspection covers and the belly panels to the parts
cleaner and got them looking like new. Actually between the scraping of
the tanks and the cleaning of the panels and covers my day was pretty
much shot. Hell I'm going to have to go back to work to get some rest.
This manual labor stuff is for the birds!! :-)

More to follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

[Denny]

The 'joy' of ownership is just beginning, Jon, just beginning...
denny

[Jon Kraus]

so what you are saying Denny is that I will be having so much fun I
won't be able to stand it? :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

Denny wrote:
> The 'joy' of ownership is just beginning, Jon, just beginning...
> denny
>

[Jay Honeck]

> so what you are saying Denny is that I will be having so much fun I won't
> be able to stand it? :-)

Boy, ain't it the truth?

Just curious: How are you going to seal the gas tanks after you've scraped
the old cruddy sealer out? How are you accessing the inside of the tank?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ross Richardson]

Jon Kraus wrote:

> No new gotcha's today... Maybe the exhaust is the biggy and will stay
> that way. The A & P said except for the exhaust the Mooney is pretty
> clean and passing the inspections with no issues. All the control
> surface, landing gear, electrical inspections are pretty much complete.
> All the inspections should be finished tomorrow.
>
> He did say that we needed to take care of a couple of tank seepage
> points (leaks). I said "Hey it's a Mooney, they are supposed to leak"
> but he didn't buy it. Now I get the fun of scraping all the old sealer
> off using a couple of plastic scrapers and picks. It sucks but better
> me doing it than paying them $60.00 and hour to do it. We will get rid
> of the wing staining once and for all... Or at least for now :-)
>
> I also took all the inspection covers and the belly panels to the parts
> cleaner and got them looking like new. Actually between the scraping of
> the tanks and the cleaning of the panels and covers my day was pretty
> much shot. Hell I'm going to have to go back to work to get some rest.
> This manual labor stuff is for the birds!! :-)
>
> More to follow...
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> '79 Mooney 201
>
>
Have you been asked to clean out the belly under the floor inspection
plates. My first annual, the A&P/IA said clean it out. It is amazing the
amount of stuff that can be in a '65 model Skyhawk. Old cut off
tiewraps, hardward from prior work, etc. Plus just the grime. It took
awhile. I even removed the belly inspection plates and cleaned from that
direction with help from mirrors and flashlights.

--
Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP

[Jon Kraus]

I don't know the exact name of the stuff we are going to use Jay. It is
just some gray 2 part sealer. The tanks that are being repaired are the
17 gallon extended tanks and they are sealed from the outside rather
than the inside. You reach up through the inspection covers to do the
scraping. There are 3 places where there are going to be repairs made. I
am using scrapers of all shapes and sizes plus some dental pick looking
utensils. The scraping part is very tedious. May office worker hands are
getting very sore doing the scraping. I think I am going to ask them
just "how much money am I going to save doing this?". If the answer is
only a couple hundred bucks then I'll say have at it then... It ain't
worth it. I took the week off work to help out on the annual, learn
about the airplane and save some money. If all this work is only saving
me a couple hundred then it isn't worth it to me.

Today I repacked all the wheel bearings. Did some more tank scraping,
and put all the wing and tail inspection covers back on. It sounds like
all the inspecting part is finished. All that is left is the tank
reseal, magneto points and condensors, nose wheel bushings, and the
exhaust. All in all the A & P said that for our first annual this
wasn't too bad. It sounds like the bill will be around $5000.00. I was
expecting $2000.00. Silly me!! :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201


Jay Honeck wrote:

>>so what you are saying Denny is that I will be having so much fun I won't
>>be able to stand it? :-)
>
>
> Boy, ain't it the truth?
>
> Just curious: How are you going to seal the gas tanks after you've scraped
> the old cruddy sealer out? How are you accessing the inside of the tank?

[Jon Kraus]

On the Mooney the belly panels come off so they are inspected from
underneath rather than from above. But I did get to clean all the belly
panels using a parts washer. It all came off pretty easily. I get to
use mirrors and flashlights scraping the tank sealant off...

Now I remember why I switched from being a truck mechanic to a computer
programmer... :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

<< snip >>
>>
> Have you been asked to clean out the belly under the floor inspection
> plates. My first annual, the A&P/IA said clean it out. It is amazing the
> amount of stuff that can be in a '65 model Skyhawk. Old cut off
> tiewraps, hardward from prior work, etc. Plus just the grime. It took
> awhile. I even removed the belly inspection plates and cleaned from that
> direction with help from mirrors and flashlights.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> All in all the A & P said that for our first annual this wasn't too bad.
> It sounds like the bill will be around $5000.00. I was expecting $2000.00.
> Silly me!! :-)

Well, it depends on what he meant by that.

If he's saying an "annual inspection" *should* cost $5K per year -- get a
new A&P.

If, on the other hand, he meant that the annual went well -- but that there
were these other things that cropped up along the way -- well, he's still a
doofus for telling you that this "wasn't too bad." $5K ain't a "good
annual."

If, on the OTHER other hand, he meant that it could have been far worse,
well, he knoweth well of what he speaketh...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jon Kraus]

I think what he meant was that for a new owner's first annual that he
has seen a lot worse. Especially since it appears that our previous
owner had a a "friend" doing the last couple of pencil whipped annuals.
I found last years bill for $325.00. Oh well live and learn...

Jon Kraus

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>All in all the A & P said that for our first annual this wasn't too bad.
>>It sounds like the bill will be around $5000.00. I was expecting $2000.00.
>>Silly me!! :-)
>
>
> Well, it depends on what he meant by that.
>
> If he's saying an "annual inspection" *should* cost $5K per year -- get a
> new A&P.
>
> If, on the other hand, he meant that the annual went well -- but that there
> were these other things that cropped up along the way -- well, he's still a
> doofus for telling you that this "wasn't too bad." $5K ain't a "good
> annual."
>
> If, on the OTHER other hand, he meant that it could have been far worse,
> well, he knoweth well of what he speaketh...
>
> ;-)

[RST Engineering]

If you are implying that annuals costing $325 or less are all
pencil-whipped, we need to talk. Or you need to talk to some of the folks
that I do annuals for that cost $200 (max). Of course, they spend three or
four days unbuttoning, buttoning, greasing, and all the rest of it before I
get there. Rarely do you find an unairworthy item on a well
owner-maintained aircraft, so most of the cost is keeping at the maintenance
all through the year.

"Fixing" everything during an annual is not only dangerous, but sort of
silly.

I'm doing a Champ this weekend. Wanna come over and watch what an "annual
inspection" really is? We even have the spar inspection AD and a mag AD to
take care of and I doubt I will be there more than 4 hours. But then again,
the owner rebuilt the aircraft himself (he's built five or six homebuilts
and is a hell of a lot better woodsmith than I am) and could do the
pre-inspection blindfolded.

That's OK, after you do it ten times, you'll get the hang of it. What you
should REALLY ask your IA for is a list of items that (s)he sees that could
stand a little preventive maintenance during the coming year. Fixing it
before it really breaks is the cheapest maintenance you can have.

Jim



"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
>I think what he meant was that for a new owner's first annual that he has
>seen a lot worse. Especially since it appears that our previous owner had a
>a "friend" doing the last couple of pencil whipped annuals. I found last
>years bill for $325.00. Oh well live and learn...

[Jon Kraus]

I absolutley agree that preventative maintenance is the key. No
arguments there. For our Mooney it would be impossible to do it in 4
hours and hit every item on the list. Most shops I talked to charge 20+
hours to get everything done. And yes I am implying that the $325.00
annuals that have been done on our plane before we purchased it were
indeed pencil whipped.

Jon

RST Engineering wrote:
> If you are implying that annuals costing $325 or less are all
> pencil-whipped, we need to talk. Or you need to talk to some of the folks
> that I do annuals for that cost $200 (max). Of course, they spend three or
> four days unbuttoning, buttoning, greasing, and all the rest of it before I
> get there. Rarely do you find an unairworthy item on a well
> owner-maintained aircraft, so most of the cost is keeping at the maintenance
> all through the year.
>
> "Fixing" everything during an annual is not only dangerous, but sort of
> silly.
>
> I'm doing a Champ this weekend. Wanna come over and watch what an "annual
> inspection" really is? We even have the spar inspection AD and a mag AD to
> take care of and I doubt I will be there more than 4 hours. But then again,
> the owner rebuilt the aircraft himself (he's built five or six homebuilts
> and is a hell of a lot better woodsmith than I am) and could do the
> pre-inspection blindfolded.
>
> That's OK, after you do it ten times, you'll get the hang of it. What you
> should REALLY ask your IA for is a list of items that (s)he sees that could
> stand a little preventive maintenance during the coming year. Fixing it
> before it really breaks is the cheapest maintenance you can have.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I think what he meant was that for a new owner's first annual that he has
>>seen a lot worse. Especially since it appears that our previous owner had a
>>a "friend" doing the last couple of pencil whipped annuals. I found last
>>years bill for $325.00. Oh well live and learn...
>
>
>

[RST Engineering]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
>I absolutley agree that preventative maintenance is the key. No arguments
>there. For our Mooney it would be impossible to do it in 4 hours and hit
>every item on the list.

Why do you say that? I have three Mooneys on my string, and it is not at
all impossible (and actually probable) to do the INSPECTION inside of four
hours.


Most shops I talked to charge 20+
> hours to get everything done.

I couldn't care less what shops you have talked to. Read the inspection
list. If you can't do those inspections between breakfast and lunch, you
just aren't trying too hard.

Do NOT include the inspector pulling all the panels and plates. Do NOT
include the inspector pulling the cowl. Do NOT include the inspector
pulling the plugs, the air filter, the gyro filter, the ... The inspector
INSPECTS, (s)he doesn't do grunt work.



And yes I am implying that the $325.00
> annuals that have been done on our plane before we purchased it were
> indeed pencil whipped.

That's not what I asked you. Read the post. I asked if you thought that
annuals that cost less than $325 were all pencil whipped.

Jim

[Jon Kraus]

Jim,
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. :-) I did read the list and
still don't see how to get the inspection part done in 4 hours. I guess
it is just me inexperience showing. I came away from the experience
impressed with all of the items hat an annual entails. Thanks for your
feedback.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

RST Engineering wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I absolutley agree that preventative maintenance is the key. No arguments
>>there. For our Mooney it would be impossible to do it in 4 hours and hit
>>every item on the list.
>
>
> Why do you say that? I have three Mooneys on my string, and it is not at
> all impossible (and actually probable) to do the INSPECTION inside of four
> hours.
>
>
> Most shops I talked to charge 20+
>
>>hours to get everything done.
>
>
> I couldn't care less what shops you have talked to. Read the inspection
> list. If you can't do those inspections between breakfast and lunch, you
> just aren't trying too hard.
>
> Do NOT include the inspector pulling all the panels and plates. Do NOT
> include the inspector pulling the cowl. Do NOT include the inspector
> pulling the plugs, the air filter, the gyro filter, the ... The inspector
> INSPECTS, (s)he doesn't do grunt work.
>
>
>
> And yes I am implying that the $325.00
>
>>annuals that have been done on our plane before we purchased it were
>>indeed pencil whipped.
>
>
> That's not what I asked you. Read the post. I asked if you thought that
> annuals that cost less than $325 were all pencil whipped.
>
> Jim
>
>

[Frank Stutzman]

RST Engineering > wrote:


> Why do you say that? I have three Mooneys on my string, and it is not at
> all impossible (and actually probable) to do the INSPECTION inside of four
> hours.

I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.

I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two hours
if done by one person.

I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in less
than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the inspection in
three hours might be tough.

Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You don't
do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks, do you?
(if so, you are a much braver man than me).

How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Jon Kraus]

You do need to put the Mooney up on jacks to do all the gear checks. Not
only is the gear swung and the emergency extension checked, all the
springs are measured and the pre-load is checked. Then a million zerks
(OK maybe 20) have to be greased. This all takes easily over an hour and
probably closer to 2. At least that is what I observed. YMMV

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

Frank Stutzman wrote:
<<< snip >>>
>
> I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.
>
> I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
> inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
> really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
> taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two hours
> if done by one person.
>
> I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
> find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in less
> than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the inspection in
> three hours might be tough.
>
> Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You don't
> do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks, do you?
> (if so, you are a much braver man than me).
>
> How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.
>
>

[Steve Foley]

Does the inspector put it up on jacks, or the owner/grease money?

Who greases the zerks? (I don't even know what a zerk is)

How long does it actually take to do the gear checks, measure springs and
pre-load?

There is a difference between an annual inspection and the normal
maintenance that is typically done while the plane is apart for inspection.

The point is that the 'inspection' part probably takes four hours, and the
maintenance is the difference. This is why an owner-assisted annual can be a
real money saver.

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> You do need to put the Mooney up on jacks to do all the gear checks. Not
> only is the gear swung and the emergency extension checked, all the
> springs are measured and the pre-load is checked. Then a million zerks
> (OK maybe 20) have to be greased. This all takes easily over an hour and
> probably closer to 2. At least that is what I observed. YMMV
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> '79 Mooney 201
>
> Frank Stutzman wrote:
> <<< snip >>>
> >
> > I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.
> >
> > I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
> > inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
> > really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
> > taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two
hours
> > if done by one person.
> >
> > I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
> > find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in
less
> > than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the inspection in
> > three hours might be tough.
> >
> > Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You don't
> > do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks, do you?
> > (if so, you are a much braver man than me).
> >
> > How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.
> >
> >
>

[Ron Natalie]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> You do need to put the Mooney up on jacks to do all the gear checks. Not
> only is the gear swung and the emergency extension checked, all the
> springs are measured and the pre-load is checked. Then a million zerks
> (OK maybe 20) have to be greased. This all takes easily over an hour and
> probably closer to 2. At least that is what I observed. YMMV
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> '79 Mooney 201
>
> Frank Stutzman wrote:
> <<< snip >>>
>
>>
>> I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.
>>
>> I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
>> inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
>> really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
>> taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two
>> hours if done by one person.
>>
>> I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
>> find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in
>> less than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the
>> inspection in three hours might be tough.
>>
>> Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You
>> don't do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks,
>> do you? (if so, you are a much braver man than me).
>>
>> How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.
>>
>>
>
Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.

[Frank Stutzman]

Ron Natalie > wrote:

> Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
> maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
> Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.

Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
you have increased your shop time.

Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
Sounds kinda tough.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Steve Foley]

But if you can find an IA who is willing to do only the 'inspection' part,
while you do the maintenance, you'll learn loads and save loads.

The question is "Can the IA find something else to do while you're taking
the plane down off the jacks?"


"Frank Stutzman" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
> > Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
> > maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
> > Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.
>
> Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
> greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
> during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
> you have increased your shop time.
>
> Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
> is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
> jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
> hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
> that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
> figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
> Sounds kinda tough.
>
> --
> Frank Stutzman
> Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
> Hood River, OR
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Frank Stutzman" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
> > Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
> > maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
> > Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.
>
> Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
> greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
> during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
> you have increased your shop time.
>
> Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
> is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
> jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
> hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
> that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
> figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
> Sounds kinda tough.
>
> --
> Frank Stutzman
> Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
> Hood River, OR


You missed the point. Putting it on jacks and removing the jacks is not
part of an annual inspection. My IA uses three tools during an annual......a
pen, a mirror and a flashlight. I can't see paying IA rates to squeeze a
grease gun, remove inspection plates or all the other no brainier tasks
involved in an annual.

[Frank Stutzman]

Dave Stadt > wrote:

> You missed the point. Putting it on jacks and removing the jacks is not
> part of an annual inspection. My IA uses three tools during an annual......a
> pen, a mirror and a flashlight. I can't see paying IA rates to squeeze a
> grease gun, remove inspection plates or all the other no brainier tasks
> involved in an annual.

Your IA does a gear inspection without jacks? How does he check the
timing with a pen, a mirror and a flashlight?

I'm not missing the point, but perhaps I'm not making myself clear. In
order to do an inspection there are certain tools that have to be used.
Setting up those tools take some time. Wether or not the IA sets those up
or the owner does it, doesn't matter. Its the same amount of MANHOURS
either way. Granted what you pay the IA may be less, but the total
MANHOURS remains relatively the same.





--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Margy]

Frank Stutzman wrote:
> Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
>
>>Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
>>maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
>>Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.
>
>
> Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
> greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
> during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
> you have increased your shop time.
>
> Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
> is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
> jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
> hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
> that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
> figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
> Sounds kinda tough.
>
> --
> Frank Stutzman
> Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
> Hood River, OR
>
I think Jim's style is more "have your airplane up on the jacks,
greased, and ready to go when I get there for the inspection." Taking
it off the jacks is minimal time and since you took all the inspection
plates off, removed what of the interior has to be removed and did all
your preventative stuff BEFORE he walks in the hangar the inspection
won't take much time at all.

Margy

[Javier Henderson]

Margy > writes:

> Frank Stutzman wrote:
> > Ron Natalie > wrote:
> >
> >> Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
> >> maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time,
> >> but Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.
> > Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is
> > that greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't
> > do it during the inspection, you have may have reduced the
> > inspection time, but you have increased your shop time. Ok, just
> > for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
> > is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
> > jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
> > hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help.
> > However, that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According
> > to Jim's
> > figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the
> > inspection. Sounds kinda tough.
> >
> I think Jim's style is more "have your airplane up on the jacks,
> greased, and ready to go when I get there for the inspection." Taking
> it off the jacks is minimal time and since you took all the inspection
> plates off, removed what of the interior has to be removed and did all
> your preventative stuff BEFORE he walks in the hangar the inspection
> won't take much time at all.

Yes, this has been Jim's MO when he came to my hangar for the
last two annual inspections on my plane. All of the grunt work
was done by the time he arrived.

And don't forget to log all that time towards your A&P cert!

-jav

[RST Engineering]

>
> I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks,

Not part of the inspection.



swinging the gear,

Ten minutes.



> inspecting the uplock cables,

Five minutes.



hitting a few zerks with grease

Not part of the inspection.




(which
> really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
> taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour.

Not part of the inspection.


Jim

[Jon A.]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:08:49 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
> wrote:

>Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
>is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
>jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
>hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
>that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
>figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
>Sounds kinda tough.
>
> --
>Frank Stutzman
>Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
>Hood River, OR

Book time is 36 hours for the inspection on a Bonanza. You can do it
correctly or you can do it via pencil. Most experienced shops will
take about 24 man hours.

[RST Engineering]

>> You missed the point. Putting it on jacks and removing the jacks is not
>> part of an annual inspection. My IA uses three tools during an
>> annual......a
>> pen, a mirror and a flashlight. I can't see paying IA rates to squeeze a
>> grease gun, remove inspection plates or all the other no brainier tasks
>> involved in an annual.

I'll expand that list out a little. Pen, mirror, and flashlight are
important. Also important are a protractor ("witch's hat" or tyme-right)
and buzzbox to check the mag timing and a compression tester. Those are my
six. When inspecting an aluminum aircraft that has lived near the coast,
I'll also break out the dental pick to check for suspicious corrosion spots.


> I'm not missing the point, but perhaps I'm not making myself clear. In
> order to do an inspection there are certain tools that have to be used.
> Setting up those tools take some time. Wether or not the IA sets those up
> or the owner does it, doesn't matter. Its the same amount of MANHOURS
> either way. Granted what you pay the IA may be less, but the total
> MANHOURS remains relatively the same.

So let me make MYSELF clear. Somebody here threw out a number for a Banana
annual. I think it was something on the order of 24 hours. That is
probably very close to correct. My point is that the actual INSPECTION
(looking, measuring, testing) is something on the order of 4 hours and the
jacking up, jacking down, jacking around, pulling panels, degreasing the
engine, degreasing the belly, replacing minor hardware that has rattled off
in the last year, replacing tires that have cord showing, packing the wheel
bearings, and all the other greasy stuff is the other 20 hours. It doesn't
take an IA to do that stuff, but the shop will charge you IA rates to have
the mit (mechanic in training) do it if you want. Or you can do it yourself
and save the $2500 or so in labor charges for the privilege. Your call.

The difference between a $200 annual and a $3000 annual is simply how greasy
you are willing to get.

Jim

[Dave Stadt]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> >> You missed the point. Putting it on jacks and removing the jacks is
not
> >> part of an annual inspection. My IA uses three tools during an
> >> annual......a
> >> pen, a mirror and a flashlight. I can't see paying IA rates to squeeze
a
> >> grease gun, remove inspection plates or all the other no brainier tasks
> >> involved in an annual.
>
> I'll expand that list out a little. Pen, mirror, and flashlight are
> important. Also important are a protractor ("witch's hat" or tyme-right)
> and buzzbox to check the mag timing and a compression tester. Those are
my
> six. When inspecting an aluminum aircraft that has lived near the coast,
> I'll also break out the dental pick to check for suspicious corrosion
spots.

I check and adjust timing (under supervision of course) and do the
compression check. I leave the witch's hat and buzz box set up for the IA
to check my adjustment. It takes him at most 30 seconds on a Continental
O-200. The timing and compression check tools cost about $200 (assuming one
owns a compressor) which is recouped in very short order. I much prefer the
IA spend his time "inspecting" and using his IA abilities and not screwing
around getting distracted with piddle stuff that I can and should have taken
care of myself. This has worked well for many years and the IA always gets
a free lunch.

[RST Engineering]

Free lunch [perk]. FREE LUNCH???

{;-)

Jim

(TINSTAAFL)



This has worked well for many years and the IA always gets
> a free lunch.
>
>
>

[Roger]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:25:05 -0500, Jon A. > wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:08:49 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
> wrote:
>
>>Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
>>is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
>>jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5

I watched mine go on the jacks and it took less than 10 minutes.
Terry had a set of hydraulics, you slid them in place, jacked it up
and put in the pins. With the wheels off the floor they could cycle
the gear. He was thorough and *relatively* inexpensive. Too bad he's
no longer with us.

>>hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
>>that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's

OTOH, going through every moving connection and the gear box under the
seats took more than two hours.

Being as I fly mine to another airport for the annual, I do not have
the luxury of "getting it ready" beyond a few items.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>>figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
>>Sounds kinda tough.
>>
>> --
>>Frank Stutzman
>>Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
>>Hood River, OR
>
>Book time is 36 hours for the inspection on a Bonanza. You can do it
>correctly or you can do it via pencil. Most experienced shops will
>take about 24 man hours.

[Javier Henderson]

"RST Engineering" > writes:

> Free lunch [perk]. FREE LUNCH???

Hey, you got free diet sodas at my last annual, doesn't that
count for nuth'n?

Alright, alright, I'll get the burgers this time...

-jav

[Dave Stadt]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> "RST Engineering" > writes:
>
> > Free lunch [perk]. FREE LUNCH???
>
> Hey, you got free diet sodas at my last annual, doesn't that
> count for nuth'n?
>
> Alright, alright, I'll get the burgers this time...
>
> -jav

Burgers? Burgers?! You should take Jim to the finest dining experience
available. It's the least you could do. If I was in the area I would spare
no cost treating him in the manner in which he deserves.
Burgers.....sheesh. :->

[RST Engineering]

Hey, I'm WAY ahead of the game with Javier. The first year I did his
airplane, I noticed he had a couple of KX-170Bs and their nav heads on his
"junk" shelf. Asked if he'd like to trade them for a few years of annuals.
I really don't remember how many years this is going to be, but whatever it
is, it is worth it.

Besides, inspecting an airplane as pristine as Jav's is a real treat. You
wanna talk about a craftsman, you oughta look under the cowling and
instrument panel at this rascal. Wichita never MADE such a pretty airplane.

But if he insists on buying this year... {;-)

Jim





"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "RST Engineering" > writes:
>>
>> > Free lunch [perk]. FREE LUNCH???
>>
>> Hey, you got free diet sodas at my last annual, doesn't that
>> count for nuth'n?
>>
>> Alright, alright, I'll get the burgers this time...
>>
>> -jav
>
> Burgers? Burgers?! You should take Jim to the finest dining experience
> available. It's the least you could do. If I was in the area I would
> spare
> no cost treating him in the manner in which he deserves.
> Burgers.....sheesh. :->
>
>
>
>

[Javier Henderson]

"Dave Stadt" > writes:

> "Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "RST Engineering" > writes:
> >
> > > Free lunch [perk]. FREE LUNCH???
> >
> > Hey, you got free diet sodas at my last annual, doesn't that
> > count for nuth'n?
> >
> > Alright, alright, I'll get the burgers this time...
>
> Burgers? Burgers?! You should take Jim to the finest dining experience
> available. It's the least you could do. If I was in the area I would spare
> no cost treating him in the manner in which he deserves.
> Burgers.....sheesh. :->

Hey, the eatery at SNS has a fairly decent menu. I suppose he could
stray and order the chicken marsala, or perhaps the blackened salmon.

-jav

[Montblack]

("Javier Henderson" wrote)
> Hey, the eatery at SNS has a fairly decent menu. I suppose he could
> stray and order the chicken marsala, or perhaps the blackened salmon.


Swing by the rec.aviation* party in the N-40 at OSH (Wed evening I believe)
and you can get "blackened" brats and "blackened" chicken :-)

"Blackened" roast pig is even a possibility this year. <g>


Montblack....

[Margy]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Javier Henderson" wrote)
>
>> Hey, the eatery at SNS has a fairly decent menu. I suppose he could
>> stray and order the chicken marsala, or perhaps the blackened salmon.
>
>
>
> Swing by the rec.aviation* party in the N-40 at OSH (Wed evening I
> believe) and you can get "blackened" brats and "blackened" chicken :-)
>
> "Blackened" roast pig is even a possibility this year. <g>
>
>
> Montblack....
hmmmmmmm... pig meat .... What time? I'm there

Margy

[Montblack]

("Margy" wrote)
> hmmmmmmm... pig meat .... What time? I'm there


After the air show on Wednesday. Wander over - bring the Navion :-)

BTW, nice photos. Plane too. <g>


Montblack

[Margy]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Margy" wrote)
>
>> hmmmmmmm... pig meat .... What time? I'm there
>
>
>
> After the air show on Wednesday. Wander over - bring the Navion :-)
>
> BTW, nice photos. Plane too. <g>
>
>
> Montblack
You will have to drag yourself down to the vintage flight line to see
the Navion. Maybe we should organize something down that way ...

Margy

[Montblack]

("Margy" wrote)
> You will have to drag yourself down to the vintage flight line to see
> the Navion. Maybe we should organize something down that way ...


Navion rides :-)


Montblack
Glad to help...

[Margy]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Margy" wrote)
>
>> You will have to drag yourself down to the vintage flight line to see
>> the Navion. Maybe we should organize something down that way ...
>
>
>
> Navion rides :-)
>
>
> Montblack
> Glad to help...
hmmmmm, depends on where the tent is, where the Navion is and if I ever
learn to land again (my landings are really ugly right now).

[Steve Foley]

Just out of curiosity, what 'book' is that?


"Jon A." > wrote in message
...

> Book time is 36 hours for the inspection on a Bonanza.