WiFi at AirVenture (was:Does your airport WiFi?)

[Dave Butler]

On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access at
Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very nearby.

I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on the
stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.

Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?

Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?

How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access point on
the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the advertising value?

Dave

[Blanche]

In article <1114609193.690100@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler > wrote:
>On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access at
>Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very nearby.
>
>I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on the
>stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>
>Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>
>Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>
>How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access point on
>the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the advertising value?

[not a flame, just a gripe]

You kidding? EAA can't even provide sufficient handwash stations around
the field. You expect anything higher-tech? I'm convinced PP has
an under-the-table deal with the companies that make those
water-less cleaning gels and baby wipes.

[end gripe]

[Dave Butler]

Blanche wrote:
> In article <1114609193.690100@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler > wrote:
>
>>On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access at
>>Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very nearby.
>>
>>I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on the
>>stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>>
>>Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>>
>>Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>>
>>How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access point on
>>the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the advertising value?
>
>
> [not a flame, just a gripe]
>
> You kidding? EAA can't even provide sufficient handwash stations around
> the field. You expect anything higher-tech? I'm convinced PP has
> an under-the-table deal with the companies that make those
> water-less cleaning gels and baby wipes.
>
> [end gripe]

Heh. Right. Good point, Blanche. I should have known better. I still think there
might be value for someone with a display booth, though. They'd probably need a
satellite internet provider, like, say, DirecWay. I think it would attract a lot
of people to their booth.

[Juan Jimenez]

The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN. There's no DSL, that I know
of, or anything faster. ANN sets up WiFi but encrypted for use by the staff
and stringers. It would be ridiculously easy to slow down an ISDN to a crawl
if it was opened up. In order to handle the traffic for so many people at
the show EAA would probably have to temporarily setup multiple T-1's, and
that costs a lot of money for just one week of the show...

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114609193.690100@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
> On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access
> at Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very
> nearby.
>
> I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on
> the stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>
> Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>
> Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>
> How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access
> point on the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the
> advertising value?
>
> Dave

[Darrel Toepfer]

Dave Butler wrote:

> Heh. Right. Good point, Blanche. I should have known better. I still
> think there might be value for someone with a display booth, though.
> They'd probably need a satellite internet provider, like, say, DirecWay.
> I think it would attract a lot of people to their booth.

Reads like "Burning Man". Course that might fit in with Montblack's
'black'n everything'...

[Dave Butler]

Juan Jimenez wrote:
> The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
> from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN.

I'm not sure there's no DSL, you could be right. DSL advertisers are notorious
liars. Also, there's satellite. If the bandwidth can't support the demand, the
number could be restricted to some arbitrary number of simultaneous users,
first-come first-served. Better than nothing.

> There's no DSL, that I know
> of, or anything faster. ANN sets up WiFi but encrypted for use by the staff
> and stringers. It would be ridiculously easy to slow down an ISDN to a crawl
> if it was opened up.

ISDN is not a practical solution.

> In order to handle the traffic for so many people at
> the show EAA would probably have to temporarily setup multiple T-1's, and
> that costs a lot of money for just one week of the show...

I'd be willing to pay for access if there were an on-field provider. I suspect
I'm not alone.

>
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> news:1114609193.690100@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
>>On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access
>>at Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very
>>nearby.
>>
>>I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on
>>the stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>>
>>Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>>
>>Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>>
>>How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access
>>point on the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the
>>advertising value?
>>
>>Dave
>
>
>


--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

[Dave Butler]

Juan Jimenez wrote:
> The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
> from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN. There's no DSL, that I know
> of, or anything faster.

NorthNet http://www.ntd.net/internet.htm claims to offer DSL.

[Montblack]

("Dave Butler" wrote)
> I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on
> the stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.


Found an open hot-spot last year, next to the N-40 showers (by the homes)
one night at around 9:30pm. Stylus and a handheld something - don't remember
the brand the guy had.

But yes, sounds too hit and miss for what you're after.


Montblack

[George Patterson]

Dave Butler wrote:
>
> NorthNet http://www.ntd.net/internet.htm claims to offer DSL.

In nearly all of the U.S., the internet providers are running on lines that
they've taken over from the local Bell company. The lines are still provisioned
by the local baby Bell. If the local Bell says that they can't give you DSL at
your location, nobody else can either. That doesn't stop the internet service
companies from claiming they can. I think the baby Bell in that area is Ameritec?

Here, Earthlink was claiming that they could provide me DSL for two years before
my line could actually support it. Verizon had to condition the line for DSL
before anyone could provide service on it.

In order to handle DSL, the service address must be pretty close to the central
office (IIRC, 5,000'). The entire cable must also be free of load coils. Most
ISPs simply check the distance but have no way of knowing if coils are on the cable.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[RST Engineering]

I don't promise what I am not absolutely SURE of delivering, but it is these
little amenities that a friendly person on the EAA Board of Directors might
be able to bring to pass.

Just a thought, mindya.


Jim

[Montblack]

("RST Engineering" wrote)
>I don't promise what I am not absolutely SURE of delivering, but it is
>these little amenities that a friendly person on the EAA Board of Directors
>might be able to bring to pass.


A broadband in every po(r)t?


Montblack

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:39:57 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>> NorthNet http://www.ntd.net/internet.htm claims to offer DSL.
>
>In nearly all of the U.S., the internet providers are running on lines that
>they've taken over from the local Bell company. The lines are still provisioned
>by the local baby Bell. If the local Bell says that they can't give you DSL at
>your location, nobody else can either. That doesn't stop the internet service
>companies from claiming they can. I think the baby Bell in that area is Ameritec?
>
>Here, Earthlink was claiming that they could provide me DSL for two years before
>my line could actually support it. Verizon had to condition the line for DSL
>before anyone could provide service on it.
>
>In order to handle DSL, the service address must be pretty close to the central
>office (IIRC, 5,000'). The entire cable must also be free of load coils. Most
>ISPs simply check the distance but have no way of knowing if coils are on the cable.

thread drift warning (you have been warned)

Contacted the local telco (brand V) several years ago concerning my
new residential service. It was a line running in a ditch for about
3/8 of a mile from the neighbor's junction box and literally
duct-taped to the poles to cross the road to my house.

Got passed around for awhile, and ended up with the engineer
responsible for jobs in my area. My primary concern was garbage coming
in from the street goofing up my brand new wired network in the house
(half telco/half LAN). Had no idea if it would be an issue-that's why
I was asking.

He assured me that the job would be completed by the end of the week
(it was) and asked me if I had ever considered DSL. Told him all the
contacts with the "sales team" told me that it was not available in my
area. He mashed a couple buttons on his keyboard, came up with my
location, and asked me how far away I was from the "box".

Turns out I was 8,200' of wire away. He did a "line test", and put me
in contact with a person within the company (not related to the sales
team) that had me hooked up within 2 weeks.

The company has since made a nationally advertised plan available in
my area. I knew it was going to be a PITA, but I switched to save $25
a month. Took about three days on the phone to convince them that I
had existing fixed IP DSL and get signed up for an annual contract.
Took another week on the phone to get the info I needed to get hooked
up/swapped over to the telco ISP. Initially, my existing service was
cut off, and I was told again that DSL wasn't available in my area,
and that I never should have been offered/sold service.

Long story short, have talked to other locals (a lot closer than my
8200') who were sold "self-install" kits and contracts from the sales
team and found out from the same engineer that their lines were not
suitable/compatible.

Cable is not a available option for me, but if the cable companies
offer any customer service at all, it's no surprise that they are
kicking the phone company's collective asses.

TC

[Darrel Toepfer]

George Patterson wrote:

> In order to handle DSL, the service address must be pretty close to the
> central office (IIRC, 5,000'). The entire cable must also be free of
> load coils. Most ISPs simply check the distance but have no way of
> knowing if coils are on the cable.

My ISDN line (128k) back in the mid 90's was over 40 miles long. My DSL
line(s) today are under 18,000 foot. Even with 3 DSLs and a cablemodem
connection, I'm still saving money over what I used to pay...

[Jon A.]

As long as someone wants to line Poberesny's pocket, he can come to
AirVenture. Doesn't matter if he's selling WiFi or pussy.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:34:10 -0400, Dave Butler > wrote:

>
>On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access at
>Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very nearby.
>
>I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on the
>stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>
>Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>
>Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>
>How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access point on
>the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the advertising value?
>
>Dave

[Jon A.]

I'll vote for the misguided Jim Weir. Hey, if can't make California
governor, then EAA director is just as good. I know he'll be just as
aggravated serving either one.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:05:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>I don't promise what I am not absolutely SURE of delivering, but it is these
>little amenities that a friendly person on the EAA Board of Directors might
>be able to bring to pass.
>
>Just a thought, mindya.
>
>
>Jim
>

[George Patterson]

wrote:
>
> Cable is not a available option for me, but if the cable companies
> offer any customer service at all, it's no surprise that they are
> kicking the phone company's collective asses.

Here, they don't. I'm paying $40 a month *less* for my DSL line than the local
cable company wants for computer access cable. The Comcast customer service
lines were a real PITA when we had cable. Verizon's service lines were great,
except for the long holding time. The hold actually wouldn't be so bad, except
that they would play the "self-help" tips over and over again while you were
waiting. With Comcast, if there was a problem in the area, they just wouldn't
answer the phone.

One of the advantages of DSL is that I have a direct line to the switch -- I
have to share the bandwidth on cable. Granted, if there's a lot of traffic on
the server, I'll still see a slow connection, but I don't see the service
degradation caused by congestion on the cable. IIRC, cable was frequently a
little faster than my DSL line usually is, but there were also times when it
crawled, and I don't see that on DSL.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Juan Jimenez]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114630866.771623@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>> The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
>> from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN.
>
> I'm not sure there's no DSL, you could be right. DSL advertisers are
> notorious liars. Also, there's satellite. If the bandwidth can't support
> the demand, the number could be restricted to some arbitrary number of
> simultaneous users, first-come first-served. Better than nothing.

If you think about it, the area where the show takes place is well separated
from the rest of civilization. For DSL to work you have to be a certain
distance from the closest telco facility, due to limitations of POTS wire.

>> There's no DSL, that I know of, or anything faster. ANN sets up WiFi but
>> encrypted for use by the staff and stringers. It would be ridiculously
>> easy to slow down an ISDN to a crawl if it was opened up.
>
> ISDN is not a practical solution.
>
>> In order to handle the traffic for so many people at the show EAA would
>> probably have to temporarily setup multiple T-1's, and that costs a lot
>> of money for just one week of the show...
>
> I'd be willing to pay for access if there were an on-field provider. I
> suspect I'm not alone.

There is. If you can use a cellphone, you can probably use one of their
PCMCIA access cards and hook up that way. If you can rent cellphones, why
not the cards? There's a business opportunity for ya. Pitch it to EAA. :)

Juan

[Juan Jimenez]

But to where? What part of Wittman Field? WiFi will get you about a 300 ft
radius, maybe a bit more if you get fancy with the antennas. You then have
to deploy an infrastructure to which you can connect the access points. It
takes money, and all for 1 week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors,
volunteers, etc.

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114631015.415430@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>> The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
>> from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN. There's no DSL, that I
>> know of, or anything faster.
>
> NorthNet http://www.ntd.net/internet.htm claims to offer DSL.

[Juan Jimenez]

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:39:57 GMT, George Patterson
> > wrote:
>
> Turns out I was 8,200' of wire away. He did a "line test", and put me
> in contact with a person within the company (not related to the sales
> team) that had me hooked up within 2 weeks.

I believe the limit on DSL is 15,000 ft from the telco facility and at that
range, quality of the signal is so degraded to be almost worthless. But
under exceptional conditions, you may get service at that distance.

[David Lesher]

One choice is EVDO. If the area has coverage, you can feed an 802.11b
access point from the cellular service. At least one commercial
product <https://evdo.sslpowered.com/wifi-router-evdo-sharing.htm>
and one project (StompBox) do the trick.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Blanche Cohen]

Juan Jimenez > wrote:
>But to where? What part of Wittman Field? WiFi will get you about a 300 ft
>radius, maybe a bit more if you get fancy with the antennas. You then have
>to deploy an infrastructure to which you can connect the access points. It
>takes money, and all for 1 week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors,
>volunteers, etc.

"takes money".

And just how much do you think Airventure grosses that week?

Let's see...how many visitor per day? Lowball it at 10K per day.
Assume half are EAA members at $20/day and the other half are
paying the $30. Times 6 days = 1.5M USD.

Now about those exhibitors...and sponsors, etc. Every single one of
them pays a substantial fee. Don't know what the fee/sq ft is but
I've been involved with very large technical trade shows over the
years and it aint cheap. I'd make a WAG and say that more than
$25M comes in from the exhibit fees.

OK, I'll agree that the show funds most of the rest of the year's
efforts, the museum, rent, utilities and the rest of the
EAA infrastructure.

But I'd speculate that the phone company could easily and happily
install a few T3's for 2 weeks at not more than $100K.

As an example, Universal Studios theme park near Orlando installs
an extra thousand (or more!) lines for the month of October to
support the Halloween attractions.

[Roger]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:08:47 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

wrote:
>>
>> Cable is not a available option for me, but if the cable companies
>> offer any customer service at all, it's no surprise that they are
>> kicking the phone company's collective asses.
>
>Here, they don't. I'm paying $40 a month *less* for my DSL line than the local

Good Gawd!
It cost me about $97 a month for 128K DSL. Another $90 some for a
dedicated IP at my provider, web hosting, and about a gig of storage.

The cable company is around $29 a month for 3 Mbs down and 256Kbs up.
Plus the first three months were free when I provided my own modem.
Other than the cable company's auto hook up software didn't work, it
was simple to do manually, call the proper number, give them the MAC
address of the main computer.

Once connected, I went to the router manufacturer's site, logged in
and cloned the MAC addresses for the rest of the computers on the
network.

>cable company wants for computer access cable. The Comcast customer service
>lines were a real PITA when we had cable. Verizon's service lines were great,

So far, Charter has been very helpful. Only once did I get a "clueless
newbie" at the help desk. Or it may have been a tech with no
communications skills <:-))

>except for the long holding time. The hold actually wouldn't be so bad, except
>that they would play the "self-help" tips over and over again while you were
>waiting. With Comcast, if there was a problem in the area, they just wouldn't
>answer the phone.

Here it's the phone company that's the PITA. Guess it all depends on
what company, what division, and who's on duty when you call.

>
>One of the advantages of DSL is that I have a direct line to the switch -- I
>have to share the bandwidth on cable. Granted, if there's a lot of traffic on
>the server, I'll still see a slow connection, but I don't see the service
>degradation caused by congestion on the cable. IIRC, cable was frequently a
>little faster than my DSL line usually is, but there were also times when it
>crawled, and I don't see that on DSL.

Being a power user, I hope no one on our cable feed decides to try
VoIP as it's gonna be pretty intermittent.
I also hope no one in the neighborhood decides to automate with home
plug next to my legal limit radio station.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

[Roger]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:39:50 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" >
wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:39:57 GMT, George Patterson
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Turns out I was 8,200' of wire away. He did a "line test", and put me
>> in contact with a person within the company (not related to the sales
>> team) that had me hooked up within 2 weeks.
>
>I believe the limit on DSL is 15,000 ft from the telco facility and at that
>range, quality of the signal is so degraded to be almost worthless. But
>under exceptional conditions, you may get service at that distance.
>
I was a tad over 5 miles (25000 plus change) and it was very reliable.
Of course it was only 128Kbs and cost me nearly a hundred a month. For
slightly less than twice as much I could have had 256Kbs.

Now the local ISP is working on wireless.
I've offered to help Beta test.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:38:15 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" >
wrote:

>But to where? What part of Wittman Field? WiFi will get you about a 300 ft
>radius, maybe a bit more if you get fancy with the antennas. You then have
>to deploy an infrastructure to which you can connect the access points. It
>takes money, and all for 1 week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors,
>volunteers, etc.

You could probably put up some wide area WAPs with 3 or 4 to cover the
whole works. It's not simple, but could be done.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
>news:1114631015.415430@sj-nntpcache-3...
>> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>>> The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
>>> from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN. There's no DSL, that I
>>> know of, or anything faster.
>>
>> NorthNet http://www.ntd.net/internet.htm claims to offer DSL.
>

[Ron Natalie]

Dave Butler wrote:
>
> On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access
> at Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very
> nearby.
>
The nearest WIFI's last year was a few of the neighboring hotels and
the Starbucks up the road. We spent the last night in the American
Suites or whatever it is (the one that has the LaSeurs catering hall
attached and it has WIFI).

Having an internet cafe on the field would sure be nice.

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 04:40:59 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
> wrote:

>
>
>One choice is EVDO. If the area has coverage, you can feed an 802.11b
>access point from the cellular service. At least one commercial
>product <https://evdo.sslpowered.com/wifi-router-evdo-sharing.htm>
>and one project (StompBox) do the trick.

Any of the high-speed cellular connections would work as the backhaul.

Another option that might allow better bandwidth...

Since backhauling the 802.11b/g data isn't a mobile application,
better datarates would be achieved through point to point last mile
type connectivity. In Chicago, we have several such carriers, but I
haven't looked at Oshkosh.

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:36:22 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" >
wrote:

>"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
>news:1114630866.771623@sj-nntpcache-3...
>> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>>> The fastest connection you can get at AirVenture, because of its distance
>>> from the nearest facility, appears to be ISDN.
>>
>> I'm not sure there's no DSL, you could be right. DSL advertisers are
>> notorious liars. Also, there's satellite. If the bandwidth can't support
>> the demand, the number could be restricted to some arbitrary number of
>> simultaneous users, first-come first-served. Better than nothing.
>
>If you think about it, the area where the show takes place is well separated
>from the rest of civilization. For DSL to work you have to be a certain
>distance from the closest telco facility, due to limitations of POTS wire.

That distance is typically a maximum of 18,000 feet of copper from the
central office or remote terminal hosting the DSLAM.

That is not very far considering OSH airport itself is probably a 2
mile by 3 mile chunk of land.

-Nathan

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:39:57 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>> NorthNet http://www.ntd.net/internet.htm claims to offer DSL.
>
>In nearly all of the U.S., the internet providers are running on lines that
>they've taken over from the local Bell company. The lines are still provisioned
>by the local baby Bell. If the local Bell says that they can't give you DSL at
>your location, nobody else can either. That doesn't stop the internet service
>companies from claiming they can. I think the baby Bell in that area is Ameritec?
>
>Here, Earthlink was claiming that they could provide me DSL for two years before
>my line could actually support it. Verizon had to condition the line for DSL
>before anyone could provide service on it.

My previous home was in a new subdivision in a growing area of my
community. We were one of the first homes in the subdivision. We
were approx 16k feet from the CO, with a clean line (no DLCs,
repeaters, etc.). At the time (~4-5 years ago) Ameritech was the
phone carrier, and they did not provide DSL. I was able to get a CLEC
to provide DSL services.

As the subdivision built and more phone and data services were
provisioned on the bundles accompanying my phone line - the DSL
service got worse and worse. Eventually, it got to a point where I
could 'sense' network loading based upon whether the DSL modem would
sync and provide service.

It worked fine during low times of usage - the mid of the day, and
the mid of the night. However, during peak usage hours of 7am-9am,
and 4pm-10pm it would never work.

An interesting problem, which I solved by moving.

-Nathan

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Juan Jimenez" > said:
>But to where? What part of Wittman Field? WiFi will get you about a 300 ft
>radius, maybe a bit more if you get fancy with the antennas. You then have
>to deploy an infrastructure to which you can connect the access points. It
>takes money, and all for 1 week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors,
>volunteers, etc.

The Linksys WRT54G wireless access point/router supports (at least it does
if you get the Sveasoft firmware, and believe me, you don't want it
without it) a mode where each WAP can relay traffic for all the other WAPs
in its range, so you can chain a bunch of them together wirelessly with
only one connected to the cable/dsl/fat pipe. You can also turn up the
power on them and increase the range.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Man in the tower, this is the man in the bird, I'm ready to go, so give me
the word." "Man in the bird, this is the man in the tower, you sound funny,
delay's an hour." - Rod Machado

[Juan Jimenez]

"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...

> And just how much do you think Airventure grosses that week?

Just pointing out that Airventure charges to get in is not a justification
for spending money on a WiFi infrastructure to be used just 2 weeks out of
the year.

[Dave Butler]

George Patterson wrote:

> In nearly all of the U.S., the internet providers are running on lines
> that they've taken over from the local Bell company. The lines are still
> provisioned by the local baby Bell. If the local Bell says that they
> can't give you DSL at your location, nobody else can either. That
> doesn't stop the internet service companies from claiming they can.

Exactly. That's why I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that DSL providers
are notorious liars.

[Dave Butler]

Juan Jimenez wrote:
> But to where? What part of Wittman Field?

Pick a spot. It doesn't have to cover the whole field.

> WiFi will get you about a 300 ft
> radius, maybe a bit more if you get fancy with the antennas. You then have
> to deploy an infrastructure to which you can connect the access points. It
> takes money, and all for 1 week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors,
> volunteers, etc.

I don't think the infrastructure is *so* expensive just to provide a hot spot,
if you don't try to cover the whole airfield. The local coffehouse can afford it.

[Dave Butler]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Dave Butler" wrote)
>
>> I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on
>> the stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>
>
>
> Found an open hot-spot last year, next to the N-40 showers (by the homes)
> one night at around 9:30pm. Stylus and a handheld something - don't
> remember
> the brand the guy had.

Heh, that might have been me. :-) I found that spot by the homes next to the N40
showers with my Tungsten|C.

Dave

[Matt Barrow]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
>
> An interesting problem, which I solved by moving.

And when the ashtrays full you buy a new car, right? :!~)

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114695955.672961@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
> Exactly. That's why I mentioned in one of my earlier postings that DSL
providers
> are notorious liars.

So are the dial-up providers.
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jay Honeck]

> The Linksys WRT54G wireless access point/router supports (at least it does
> if you get the Sveasoft firmware, and believe me, you don't want it
> without it) a mode where each WAP can relay traffic for all the other WAPs
> in its range, so you can chain a bunch of them together wirelessly with
> only one connected to the cable/dsl/fat pipe. You can also turn up the
> power on them and increase the range.

Ha. We tried the "repeater" method at the hotel, in an effort to adequately
cover two 3-story buildings.

It turned out to be incredibly unstable. All it would take was a 2 second
power outage, and the repeater "lost its mind" and would not recover -- a
completely untenable solution in a commercial application. Other times it
would lose its connection for no apparent reason at all, and have to be
"rebooted" from scratch -- a time consuming, aggravating affair.

Our solution was a separate DSL line and network in both buildings. A bit
more expensive, but rock-solid.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't think the infrastructure is *so* expensive just to provide a hot
> spot, if you don't try to cover the whole airfield. The local coffehouse
> can afford it.

It's not. We covered our entire hotel -- two 3-story buildings, plus the
pool area -- for a grand investment of maybe $225. (Not counting the
monthly DSL line charges, of course.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114696520.125471@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>> But to where? What part of Wittman Field?
>
> Pick a spot. It doesn't have to cover the whole field.
>
>> WiFi will get you about a 300 ft radius, maybe a bit more if you get
>> fancy with the antennas. You then have to deploy an infrastructure to
>> which you can connect the access points. It takes money, and all for 1
>> week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors, volunteers, etc.
>

[John Theune]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>
>> On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless
>> access at Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no
>> access very nearby.
>>
> The nearest WIFI's last year was a few of the neighboring hotels and
> the Starbucks up the road. We spent the last night in the American
> Suites or whatever it is (the one that has the LaSeurs catering hall
> attached and it has WIFI).
>
> Having an internet cafe on the field would sure be nice.
While it did not have WIFI, there was net access at the EAA members tent
last year with ethernet connections. They had a fair amount of trouble
witht he sat link, but it was there.

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:39:08 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> wrote:

>
>"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> An interesting problem, which I solved by moving.
>
>And when the ashtrays full you buy a new car, right? :!~)

Yep. I also buy a new plane when the tanks run low!

[Rob]

I spent some time scouting for WiFi last year at Oshkosh with my Ipaq
PDA. There were several networks in each of the four conference halls
but none of them were publicly accessible. EAA apparently charges
exhibitors big bucks to access the networks. At the "member center"
there were a couple of rows of PCs set up for public web browsing. I
asked the hostess there about WiFi and she looked at me like I had two
heads.

-R

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Rob" > said:
>exhibitors big bucks to access the networks. At the "member center"
>there were a couple of rows of PCs set up for public web browsing. I

Any chance of plugging your own laptop into their network? I don't like
typing in passwords on public terminals, because of people sticking
keystroke loggers on them. If I use my laptop, all my communications will
be using ssh and nobody can sniff them.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Sign on door of computing lecturer: "If your project is 90% right,
I have to give you a distinction, your employer will fire you."
-- Zebee

[Dave Butler]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "Rob" > said:
>
>>exhibitors big bucks to access the networks. At the "member center"
>>there were a couple of rows of PCs set up for public web browsing. I
>
>
> Any chance of plugging your own laptop into their network? I don't like
> typing in passwords on public terminals, because of people sticking
> keystroke loggers on them. If I use my laptop, all my communications will
> be using ssh and nobody can sniff them.

If I understood John Theune's post correctly, there were wired ethernet ports
available.

[George Patterson]

Roger wrote:
>
> Good Gawd!
> It cost me about $97 a month for 128K DSL. Another $90 some for a
> dedicated IP at my provider, web hosting, and about a gig of storage.

Verizon just went up to $37.95/month. With Federal fees & taxes, it totals
$42.45. If you sign a contract for a year, they charge $29.95. I'm still
thinking about that.

> The cable company is around $29 a month for 3 Mbs down and 256Kbs up.

We switched when Comcast passed $70/month. IIRC, they were charging $79 at the end.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Juan Jimenez wrote:
>
> Just pointing out that Airventure charges to get in is not a justification
> for spending money on a WiFi infrastructure to be used just 2 weeks out of
> the year.

For that short a timespan, sattelite might be the best way to go.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Jon A.]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:36:22 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" >
wrote:

>> I'd be willing to pay for access if there were an on-field provider. I
>> suspect I'm not alone.
>
>There is. If you can use a cellphone, you can probably use one of their
>PCMCIA access cards and hook up that way. If you can rent cellphones, why
>not the cards? There's a business opportunity for ya. Pitch it to EAA. :)
>
>Juan
>
Just bring your proposal and a basket of money in unmarked bills.

[Rob]

George Patterson Wrote:

> For that short a timespan, sattelite might be the best way to go.

Can you get broadband service via satellite dish in an RV? Maybe we
could convince someone to put up a hotspot that way.

-R

[Jon A.]

On 28 Apr 2005 04:59:58 GMT, (Blanche Cohen)
wrote:

>And just how much do you think Airventure grosses that week?
>
>Let's see...how many visitor per day? Lowball it at 10K per day.
>Assume half are EAA members at $20/day and the other half are
>paying the $30. Times 6 days = 1.5M USD.
>
A real lowball! How about the "camping" fees. If 70% are members,
10K relates to 450 people a day. Let's assume that everyone is a
member and stays 1 day. 200,000 X 20 = 4,000,000. My guess is that
it's around $15 million in admission, camping and the rest. A friend
exhibits, or did exhibit, and was paying $2400 for a 10 foot booth, or
whatever the smallest was, inside. Had to be there and manned the
entire time. How many booths are there and what are the sizes? then
there's the outdoor vendors, the split from the junk sale, the
exorbitant prices the food vendors must pay and everything else.
Makes a fine living for the little pober boy. And to top it all off,
all of those fine people working the event are volunteers. God bless
them, but I wouldn't do that for free for that organization if my life
depended on it. If they paid me $1.00 a day, it would be different.

>Now about those exhibitors...and sponsors, etc. Every single one of
>them pays a substantial fee. Don't know what the fee/sq ft is but
>I've been involved with very large technical trade shows over the
>years and it aint cheap. I'd make a WAG and say that more than
>$25M comes in from the exhibit fees.
>

[Jon A.]

Sure it is. By showing what is grossed, you can estimate the
attendance, then extrapolate or WAG what the demand would be. If
there's sufficient demand and you can make money, then you can best
decide if your costs justify the end result.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:47:23 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" >
wrote:

>
>"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>
>> And just how much do you think Airventure grosses that week?
>
>Just pointing out that Airventure charges to get in is not a justification
>for spending money on a WiFi infrastructure to be used just 2 weeks out of
>the year.
>
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Rob" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> George Patterson Wrote:
>
>> For that short a timespan, sattelite might be the best way to go.
>
> Can you get broadband service via satellite dish in an RV? Maybe we
> could convince someone to put up a hotspot that way.
>
> -R
>

Incoming, yes.
Outgoing (unless you want to spend big $$$), you need a landline.

Jay

[TaxSrv]

"Jon A." > wrote:
> ...
> A real lowball! How about the "camping" fees. If 70% are members,
> 10K relates to 450 people a day. Let's assume that everyone is a
> member and stays 1 day. 200,000 X 20 = 4,000,000. My guess is that
> it's around $15 million in admission, camping and the rest.

The entire convention has been grossing around $9 million, including
exhibitor fees and advertising. However, gross is irrelevant, as this
is really a business venture. Whether net access is worth the cost is
a matter of whether it will bring in additional attendees, as you
implied in another post. While AirVentrure makes money, overall EAA
has been losing money in recent years, so maybe even relatively small
costs are carefully considered.

Fred F.

[Javier Henderson]

(Paul Tomblin) writes:

> In a previous article, "Rob" > said:
> >exhibitors big bucks to access the networks. At the "member center"
> >there were a couple of rows of PCs set up for public web browsing. I
>
> Any chance of plugging your own laptop into their network? I don't like
> typing in passwords on public terminals, because of people sticking
> keystroke loggers on them. If I use my laptop, all my communications will
> be using ssh and nobody can sniff them.

Set up one-time passwords...

-jav

[RST Engineering]

Well, sir, since I'm running for the board that will spend all this
largesse, why don't you educate me on the matter.

My numbers show a $20M income from all sources.

My expenses show a $17M outflow (including all EAA payroll for the whole
year).

Net to the EAA is about $3M a year from the flyin.

That makes for one HELL of a lot of bratwurst in the differential.





Jim




"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> "Jon A." > wrote:
>> ...
>> A real lowball! How about the "camping" fees. If 70% are members,
>> 10K relates to 450 people a day. Let's assume that everyone is a
>> member and stays 1 day. 200,000 X 20 = 4,000,000. My guess is that
>> it's around $15 million in admission, camping and the rest.
>
> The entire convention has been grossing around $9 million, including
> exhibitor fees and advertising. However, gross is irrelevant, as this
> is really a business venture. Whether net access is worth the cost is
> a matter of whether it will bring in additional attendees, as you
> implied in another post. While AirVentrure makes money, overall EAA
> has been losing money in recent years, so maybe even relatively small
> costs are carefully considered.
>
> Fred F.
>

[Juan Jimenez]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114696520.125471@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>> But to where? What part of Wittman Field?
>
> Pick a spot. It doesn't have to cover the whole field.
>
>> WiFi will get you about a 300 ft radius, maybe a bit more if you get
>> fancy with the antennas. You then have to deploy an infrastructure to
>> which you can connect the access points. It takes money, and all for 1
>> week's worth? Maybe 2 if you count exhibitors, volunteers, etc.
>
> I don't think the infrastructure is *so* expensive just to provide a hot
> spot, if you don't try to cover the whole airfield. The local coffehouse
> can afford it.

Which one? You can get coffee at a gazillion places at Airventure! :)

Personally, I bring my own brand, Wake Up The Dead. If you can see the
bottom of the cup and the spoon won't stand up unassisted, it's not coffee,
it's tea. :)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Javier Henderson > said:
(Paul Tomblin) writes:
>> Any chance of plugging your own laptop into their network? I don't like
>> typing in passwords on public terminals, because of people sticking
>> keystroke loggers on them. If I use my laptop, all my communications will
>> be using ssh and nobody can sniff them.
>
>Set up one-time passwords...

And not be able to be able to change them back until I'm home a week
later? Somebody could do a lot of damage in a week.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Very sad life. Probably have very sad death. But at least there is
symmetry. Go, Go, Zathrus take care."

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Javier Henderson > said:
(Paul Tomblin) writes:
>>> [...] If I use my laptop, all my communications will
>>> be using ssh and nobody can sniff them.
>>
>>Set up one-time passwords...
>
> And not be able to be able to change them back until I'm home a week
> later? Somebody could do a lot of damage in a week.

If I recall, PuTTY is basically a standalone program (and supports SSH).
Doesn't require any installation. You could just copy that to a thumb drive
or something, and run that on any public terminal.

It's impossible to guarantee a public terminal is completely safe, of
course, with respect to key logging or other capturing. However, there are
ways to enter passwords without actually typing them. Given the relatively
low risk of there being ANY logging installed, along with the even lower
chance that whatever logging is installed would deal with anything other
than keystrokes, IMHO the risk is reduced to no greater than someone hacking
into the system remotely with no assistance from you whatsoever (ie if it
were REALLY that important, you wouldn't allow access from the Internet at
all in the first place).

Finally, depending on the nature of the password-protected resources, you
may be able to have the password reset over the phone, so you don't have to
wait until you get home to change them. This would be true of many
financial web sites, for example.

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> My expenses show a $17M outflow (including all EAA payroll for the whole
> year).

Does that figure include the museum? Or is that self-supporting?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[TaxSrv]

> > My expenses show a $17M outflow (including all EAA
> > payroll for the whole year).
>
> Does that figure include the museum? Or is that self-supporting?
> --
> Jay Honeck

The museum is a separate organization, and is the one that receives
substantial charitable gifts and bequests. It's "net income" is thus
considerable and cannot be used to subsidize the sister EAA org to
much extent, but lately EAA has consolidated the financial statements.
Whether that's to hide the losses in EAA, Jim Weir can find out at
future Board meetings. :-)

Fred F.

[Dave Butler]

George Patterson wrote:
> Juan Jimenez wrote:
>
>>
>> Just pointing out that Airventure charges to get in is not a
>> justification for spending money on a WiFi infrastructure to be used
>> just 2 weeks out of the year.
>
>
> For that short a timespan, sattelite might be the best way to go.

That's what I was thinking, too.

What if someone had DirecWay at home and just brought their dish and receiver
and set it up beside the showers in the N40?

[TaxSrv]

"RST Engineering" > wrote:
> Well, sir, since I'm running for the board that will spend all this
> largesse, why don't you educate me on the matter.
>
> My numbers show a $20M income from all sources.
>
> My expenses show a $17M outflow (including all EAA
> payroll for the whole year).
>
> Net to the EAA is about $3M a year from the flyin.
>

That's probably about right for the fly-in itself, though their
financials on the public record don't tell you much. Their IRS tax
forms are on guidestar.org, and yes they have had overall net losses
lately. Not alarmingly large, but they no longer have relative cash
like the old days. And nothing like AOPA.

Once seated on the Board, you might see if they look much to the
future beyond the next AirVenture. In a recent Tom P. editorial,
there was a number quoted which suggests membership is in decline, and
kits are approaching 90% of amateur-built completions. With kits,
plus the internet, you no longer need much support at chapter level
like the old days. Interest in classic planes and warbirds will wane,
as younger generations age into hobby-spending. I suspect also that
EAA chapters are increasingly aging, social clubs, and their push for
light sport aircraft if successful may not change that.

Fred F.

[Dave Butler]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> "Rob" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>George Patterson Wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For that short a timespan, sattelite might be the best way to go.
>>
>>Can you get broadband service via satellite dish in an RV? Maybe we
>>could convince someone to put up a hotspot that way.
>>
>>-R
>>
>
>
> Incoming, yes.
> Outgoing (unless you want to spend big $$$), you need a landline.

Why is that (not disputing, just ignorant)?

Anyway, I don't think anyone is proposing setting up a server on the hotspot.

[Jay Masino]

In rec.aviation.owning Dave Butler > wrote:
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>> Incoming, yes.
>> Outgoing (unless you want to spend big $$$), you need a landline.
>
> Why is that (not disputing, just ignorant)?
>
> Anyway, I don't think anyone is proposing setting up a server on the hotspot.

I believe that early satellite internet services used the satellite for
inbound traffic and a telephone line for outbound traffic, but if you
look at the web page for services like DirecWay, you'll see that they
uplink using the satellite, too. It's just not very fast (50kbps).

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Jay Masino]

In rec.aviation.owning Dave Butler > wrote:
> What if someone had DirecWay at home and just brought their dish and receiver
> and set it up beside the showers in the N40?

Considering the "home" version of Direcway seems to be 500kbps download
and 50kbps upload, I'm not sure I'd want to share it with a bunch of
other people over a WiFi connection. It would probably be pretty slow.
In addition, the ping times are real long, so it often seems even slower
than the throughput would suggest.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
...
> Considering the "home" version of Direcway seems to be 500kbps download
> and 50kbps upload, I'm not sure I'd want to share it with a bunch of
> other people over a WiFi connection. It would probably be pretty slow.

It would be slow no matter how you share it. :)

> In addition, the ping times are real long, so it often seems even slower
> than the throughput would suggest.

Ping times shouldn't be more than about 500ms add-on. How many people are
really going to notice a half-second difference in response time?

I certainly would agree that you couldn't share a link that slow (500kpbs
down/50kbps up) with many people before it got completely congested. 10
people all downloading at the same time, and they all might as well be on
dial-up. But I don't see how ping times are an issue. It's not like people
are going to be playing Quake from the North 40. :)

Pete

[Ron Natalie]

TaxSrv wrote:

> The entire convention has been grossing around $9 million, including
> exhibitor fees and advertising. However, gross is irrelevant, as this
> is really a business venture. Whether net access is worth the cost is
> a matter of whether it will bring in additional attendees, as you
> implied in another post. While AirVentrure makes money, overall EAA
> has been losing money in recent years, so maybe even relatively small
> costs are carefully considered.
>

The last time I looked at the public numbers the EAA and the foundation
each netted about a million on a five million gross for Airventure.
It's a big large portion of the annual revenue for both organizations.

[Jon A.]

I think you'll find that board member or not, you'll be excluded from
much of the financial reporting. Ask the present board members if
they can account for all of Tommy's salary and "benefits", or better
said, if Tommy will account for the $400,000 in expense money above
his salary.

Dig down deep before you enter this world.



On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:29:23 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Well, sir, since I'm running for the board that will spend all this
>largesse, why don't you educate me on the matter.
>
>My numbers show a $20M income from all sources.
>
>My expenses show a $17M outflow (including all EAA payroll for the whole
>year).
>
>Net to the EAA is about $3M a year from the flyin.
>
>That makes for one HELL of a lot of bratwurst in the differential.
>
>
>
>
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
>> "Jon A." > wrote:
>>> ...
>>> A real lowball! How about the "camping" fees. If 70% are members,
>>> 10K relates to 450 people a day. Let's assume that everyone is a
>>> member and stays 1 day. 200,000 X 20 = 4,000,000. My guess is that
>>> it's around $15 million in admission, camping and the rest.
>>
>> The entire convention has been grossing around $9 million, including
>> exhibitor fees and advertising. However, gross is irrelevant, as this
>> is really a business venture. Whether net access is worth the cost is
>> a matter of whether it will bring in additional attendees, as you
>> implied in another post. While AirVentrure makes money, overall EAA
>> has been losing money in recent years, so maybe even relatively small
>> costs are carefully considered.
>>
>> Fred F.
>>
>

[George Patterson]

Dave Butler wrote:
>
> Anyway, I don't think anyone is proposing setting up a server on the
> hotspot.

Actually, I was sort of leaning that way. Setup time for a satellite link is
minimal, compared to a T1 or T3. About 15 years ago, it was common practice in
some places to set up satellite feeds for bank ATMs for the short run until the
bugs could be worked out of the cable setup.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Juan Jimenez wrote:
>
> Personally, I bring my own brand, Wake Up The Dead.

I like Disobedient Donkey (AKA "bad ass"). I gave serious thought to raiding my
401K to set up a franchise. Of course, what I don't know about retail would fill
several books.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Roger]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:41:06 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> The Linksys WRT54G wireless access point/router supports (at least it does
>> if you get the Sveasoft firmware, and believe me, you don't want it
>> without it) a mode where each WAP can relay traffic for all the other WAPs
>> in its range, so you can chain a bunch of them together wirelessly with
>> only one connected to the cable/dsl/fat pipe. You can also turn up the
>> power on them and increase the range.
>
>Ha. We tried the "repeater" method at the hotel, in an effort to adequately
>cover two 3-story buildings.
>
>It turned out to be incredibly unstable. All it would take was a 2 second
>power outage, and the repeater "lost its mind" and would not recover -- a

That's why they make UPSs.
My tower gets hit by lightening about three times a year. The last
time, the lights went out, The alarms on the UPSs sounded, the network
rebooted (probably went down from the voltage spike - It's hard wired)
and other than the couple second pause on the network everything kept
running. Other than being slow, wireless should be just as reliable
even using repeaters. There are repeaters and there are the WAPs.
which are quite different animals and I don't know which you tried.

I have the wireless equipment but it was just too slow for my
application. Backing up a 100 or so gig with four computers at even
100 Base T is agonizingly slow. OTOH defragging a computer with 500
plus Gig in EIDE drive capacity total in three drives plus two 200 Gig
SATA drives in a spanned and stripped array seems to take forever.

>completely untenable solution in a commercial application. Other times it
>would lose its connection for no apparent reason at all, and have to be
>"rebooted" from scratch -- a time consuming, aggravating affair.

It sounds to me like you had an interfering signal, or some bad
noise. Even another system near by can some times do it.

A friend has/had 2.4 gig phones, a 2.4 Gig X-10 web cam and a 2.4 Gig
wireless network. He found the phone would trash the network and the
signal from the web cam. Those in turn would trash the signal from
the phone. He now has 5 gig phones and the rest of the system is
happy.

With wireless, I'm waiting until they get the speed up for my network.
For Internet connections you don't need anything faster than 10 Base T
and most wireless networks far surpass that with 802.11g being almost
as fast as 100 Base T in most installations. With 4 large computers
and over two terabytes of storage, I'm now on a gigabit network. That
means the drive I/O is the limiting factor on most file transfers.
Even the SATA RAID isn't that fast.

But wireless is getting there. although I'd suggest using a name
other than default for D-Link, or Linksys for ... well...LinkSys <:-))
which I'd bet over 60 to 70% of the users are doing and they are doing
it without encryption enabled..

Good Luck,

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Our solution was a separate DSL line and network in both buildings. A bit
>more expensive, but rock-solid.

[Jay Masino]

In rec.aviation.owning Peter Duniho > wrote:
> Ping times shouldn't be more than about 500ms add-on. How many people are
> really going to notice a half-second difference in response time?
>
> I certainly would agree that you couldn't share a link that slow (500kpbs
> down/50kbps up) with many people before it got completely congested. 10
> people all downloading at the same time, and they all might as well be on
> dial-up. But I don't see how ping times are an issue. It's not like people
> are going to be playing Quake from the North 40. :)

Yea, you might be right. In my head, I've been comparing it to a
satellite link we had between two NASA centers (Goddard and Wallops) and
how using ssh was painful. We even tried running PC Anywhere over it. It
really sucked, and we had 900 kbps in each direction. 525ms ping time.
Of course, both of those apps would be far more sensitive to response time
than a web browser.

--- Jay

--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
...
> Yea, you might be right. In my head, I've been comparing it to a
> satellite link we had between two NASA centers (Goddard and Wallops) and
> how using ssh was painful. We even tried running PC Anywhere over it. It
> really sucked, and we had 900 kbps in each direction. 525ms ping time.
> Of course, both of those apps would be far more sensitive to response time
> than a web browser.

Exactly.

I'd expect ssh to be a worst-case scenario, since you're getting echo from
the other end. Highly noticeable to the user.

PC Anywhere should be less noticeable, since throughput is more important
than ping time, but the interactive nature would still allow the user to
notice an increase in ping time.

For more conventional stuff, like email, web browsing, and (of course :) )
newsgroups, I would expect the user to have very little perception, if any,
of the increase in ping time. The user is already used to the "provide
input, wait a little while for the response" in those scenarios.

Of course, even for the more interactive tasks, the user can run ahead of
the link. The *perception* will be of a slow link, but in reality, there
will only be a half-second delay for each operation.

I would guess that if the choice is between no link, and a link with a 500
ms lag in it, many people would choose the latter. Me, one of the things I
like about vacations is getting away from the computer. :)

Pete

[John Doe]

Does your cell phone get a digital signal there? I just plug my laptop into
my cellphone/modem and I get pretty good internet speeds through that. Much
less hassle than trying to find a hotspot anywhere.

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1114609193.690100@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
> On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access
> at Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very
> nearby.
>
> I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on
> the stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>
> Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>
> Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>
> How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access
> point on the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the
> advertising value?
>
> Dave

[Newps]

John Doe wrote:

> Does your cell phone get a digital signal there? I just plug my laptop into
> my cellphone/modem and I get pretty good internet speeds through that. Much
> less hassle than trying to find a hotspot anywhere.

On a related issue I recently upgraded my phone to a Treo 600. I am a
Verizon customer. This phone is digital only, no analog service. I
flew to the Twin Cities and back in the last week. Eastbound I was at
7500 MSL about half the way and then about 3500 MSL the rest of the way.
Westbound I was at about 1500 AGL all the way to keep my tailwind. I
haven't received my adapter yet for my Cellset so I didn't make any
phone calls. I checked my email about 25 times in each direction. If I
had three or more bars the phone would connect and send or receive
email. If I had two it was hit or miss. Never with one bar. Until I
get my connector for my cellset I will assume a phone call will work the
same as a data call.

[Roger]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:09:40 GMT, "John Doe" > wrote:

>Does your cell phone get a digital signal there? I just plug my laptop into
>my cellphone/modem and I get pretty good internet speeds through that. Much
>less hassle than trying to find a hotspot anywhere.
>

If you and 100 others are tying to use a hot spot I think the cell
phone would be a better way to go. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


>"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
>news:1114609193.690100@sj-nntpcache-3...
>>
>> On a related note: there was a thread here earlier about wireless access
>> at Oshkosh. IIRC the sad conclusion was that there was no access very
>> nearby.
>>
>> I wonder whether anyone has contacted EAA and requested that they get on
>> the stick and provide WiFi on the North 40.
>>
>> Is there any chance EAA would do something like that?
>>
>> Any idea how to approach EAA or whom to contact about it?
>>
>> How about some entrepreneur/vendor/display booth setting up an access
>> point on the grounds, either for a fee or as a public service for the
>> advertising value?
>>
>> Dave
>

[Roger]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 21:04:17 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>John Doe wrote:
>
>> Does your cell phone get a digital signal there? I just plug my laptop into
>> my cellphone/modem and I get pretty good internet speeds through that. Much
>> less hassle than trying to find a hotspot anywhere.
>
>On a related issue I recently upgraded my phone to a Treo 600. I am a
>Verizon customer. This phone is digital only, no analog service. I
>flew to the Twin Cities and back in the last week. Eastbound I was at
>7500 MSL about half the way and then about 3500 MSL the rest of the way.
> Westbound I was at about 1500 AGL all the way to keep my tailwind. I
>haven't received my adapter yet for my Cellset so I didn't make any
>phone calls. I checked my email about 25 times in each direction. If I
>had three or more bars the phone would connect and send or receive
>email. If I had two it was hit or miss. Never with one bar. Until I
>get my connector for my cellset I will assume a phone call will work the
>same as a data call.

My phone has always worked at Oshkosh any where on the field with a
full scale signal and that goes way back into the early 90's.

OTOH I've had guys wanting to borrow mine because theirs didn't find a
signal.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Maule Driver]

My experience (Treo 600 Sprint) has been that SMS messaging and email
work but voice calls rarely work above 2-3K. And that's independent of
the number of bars - 1 or better seems make txt messages work.

I would be interested in hearing about your voice experienc

Newps wrote:

>
> On a related issue I recently upgraded my phone to a Treo 600. I am a
> Verizon customer. This phone is digital only, no analog service. I
> flew to the Twin Cities and back in the last week. Eastbound I was at
> 7500 MSL about half the way and then about 3500 MSL the rest of the way.
> Westbound I was at about 1500 AGL all the way to keep my tailwind. I
> haven't received my adapter yet for my Cellset so I didn't make any
> phone calls. I checked my email about 25 times in each direction. If I
> had three or more bars the phone would connect and send or receive
> email. If I had two it was hit or miss. Never with one bar. Until I
> get my connector for my cellset I will assume a phone call will work the
> same as a data call.

[Newps]

Maule Driver wrote:

> My experience (Treo 600 Sprint) has been that SMS messaging and email
> work but voice calls rarely work above 2-3K. And that's independent of
> the number of bars - 1 or better seems make txt messages work.
>
> I would be interested in hearing about your voice experienc

When I get the adapter I'll try it out.