Uh, Please, Sirs

[jls]

May I ask a question which is arguably on topic? As among Airtech,
Ceconite, Polyfiber and the other covering systems, which is best and why?

One more, please?

Which is cheapest?

And finally, which is the best for your money and why? Thanks.

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:00:11 -0400, " jls" >
wrote:

>May I ask a question which is arguably on topic? As among Airtech,
>Ceconite, Polyfiber and the other covering systems, which is best and why?
>
>One more, please?
>
>Which is cheapest?
>
>And finally, which is the best for your money and why? Thanks.

Found this website using "air tech covering" on Google:

http://www.spava.com/Article.htm

Be advised, the authors likes the Air Tech covering process.

By the way, it appears that all the covering processes utilize some
form of Dacron fabric (except for Razorback, which uses fiberglass
cloth). There are only a few manufacturers of this type of fabric so
it sure looks to me like there isn't much difference, one process from
the next.

Corky Scott

[Bob Hoover]

" jls" > wrote in message >...
> May I ask a question which is arguably on topic? As among Airtech,
> Ceconite, Polyfiber and the other covering systems, which is best and why?

-------------------------------------------------

Razorback. It's permanent.

------------------------------------------------


> Which is cheapest?

------------------------------------------------

Generic polyester fabric, contact cement and dope.

But you left out: Which is lightest in weight?, Which is easiest to
apply? and Which is most beloved amongst those who have never done any
fabric work at all?, always a hot topic on this Newsgroup :-)

-R.S.Hoover

[jls]

"Bob Hoover" > wrote in message
om...
> " jls" > wrote in message
>...
[...]> > Which is cheapest?
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Generic polyester fabric, contact cement and dope.

Excellent. Where may this dope be bought? If you buy it from the
aircraft suppliers you pay an arm and a leg, plus awful hazmat charges.
>
> But you left out: Which is lightest in weight?, Which is easiest to
> apply? and Which is most beloved amongst those who have never done any
> fabric work at all?, always a hot topic on this Newsgroup :-)
>
> -R.S.Hoover

Mr. Hoover, kind sir, could you (or someone else as knowledgeable) answer
those questions you posed?

[Turbo Tiger]

" jls" > wrote in message
.. .
> May I ask a question which is arguably on topic? As among Airtech,
> Ceconite, Polyfiber and the other covering systems, which is best and why?
>
> One more, please?
>
> Which is cheapest?
>
> And finally, which is the best for your money and why? Thanks.
>
>

If you're covering for the first time, I believe that the Stits/Polyfiber
process is the best. They have very good instructions and no questions on
what materials to use.

--
Turbo Tiger

[jls]

"Turbo Tiger" > wrote in message
news:9iw9d.355527$Fg5.15893@attbi_s53...
> " jls" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > May I ask a question which is arguably on topic? As among Airtech,
> > Ceconite, Polyfiber and the other covering systems, which is best and
why?
> >
> > One more, please?
> >
> > Which is cheapest?
> >
> > And finally, which is the best for your money and why? Thanks.
> >
> >
>
> If you're covering for the first time, I believe that the Stits/Polyfiber
> process is the best. They have very good instructions and no questions on
> what materials to use.
>
> --
> Turbo Tiger

I guess I'm a little bit of a gypsy cause I've used the Stits process and
just loved it but e x p e n s i v e. They tell me to cover a Cub you need
$4000 for materials and paint. And now Polyfiber, which was Stits, has
bought out Ceconite. Polyfiber has an xlnt manual, btw, have used it from
cover to cover.

Folks in one of the biplane yahoogroups swear by the Airtech process, so
maybe they're a little less costly. All the best to you, Turbo and Corky
and Veedubber.

[Jim Weir]

Before you select the cheapest, may I suggest that you google on "Steve Wittman"
and "accident".

Jim



->> > Which is cheapest?
->> >



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[jls]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
>
> Before you select the cheapest, may I suggest that you google on "Steve
Wittman"
> and "accident".
>
> Jim

Hey, Jim, I wouldn't violate an STC. I know all about Steve's tragic
accident and have read all the reports and articles. He unwisely used dope
as a fastener with the Stits process, which requires a vinyl-based glue and
weave filler to fasten dacron polyester to the wing structure. Catastrophic
flutter after fabric came loose on a wing or aileron is officially alleged
to be the cause of the deadly crash of his O-470-powered O&O Special. May
the great Steve Wittman and his new wife RIP.

And, by the way, I have used dacron often as a peel-ply for wet layups when
doing fiberglas work. That helpful quality of dacron polyester, i. e.,
that it doesn't stick and readily peels away after the layup has cured, is
enough to put one on notice that you better not use the wrong glue for
dacron unless you want to get your aXX busted.

I am just trying, cheapskate that I am, to find the best LEGAL covering
system for the money, not an aXXbuster.

Airtech, I understand, uses a different kind of glue. From what I can read
you don't, and can't, fasten dacron to an airframe with glues like dope.
You are compelled to penetrate the weave with a glue --Polytak, for
example -- which develops its own structure in the woven interstices of the
dacron with a web-like grip.

[Richard Lamb]

jls wrote:
>
> "Jim Weir" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Before you select the cheapest, may I suggest that you google on "Steve
> Wittman"
> > and "accident".
> >
> > Jim
>
> Hey, Jim, I wouldn't violate an STC. I know all about Steve's tragic
> accident and have read all the reports and articles. He unwisely used dope
> as a fastener with the Stits process, which requires a vinyl-based glue and
> weave filler to fasten dacron polyester to the wing structure. Catastrophic
> flutter after fabric came loose on a wing or aileron is officially alleged
> to be the cause of the deadly crash of his O-470-powered O&O Special. May
> the great Steve Wittman and his new wife RIP.
>
> And, by the way, I have used dacron often as a peel-ply for wet layups when
> doing fiberglas work. That helpful quality of dacron polyester, i. e.,
> that it doesn't stick and readily peels away after the layup has cured, is
> enough to put one on notice that you better not use the wrong glue for
> dacron unless you want to get your aXX busted.
>
> I am just trying, cheapskate that I am, to find the best LEGAL covering
> system for the money, not an aXXbuster.
>
> Airtech, I understand, uses a different kind of glue. From what I can read
> you don't, and can't, fasten dacron to an airframe with glues like dope.
> You are compelled to penetrate the weave with a glue --Polytak, for
> example -- which develops its own structure in the woven interstices of the
> dacron with a web-like grip.

Unlike linen, polyester fiber has no nap. There is nothing for the dope
to hold on to. Poly Tack (the polyfiber fabric cement) encapsulates the
polyester fiber, giving good shear and (adequate) peal strength.

After that, the finishing system chosen is probably based more on
personal
preference than technical merit.

I used Polyfiber (Stits) on my parasol and am very pleased with the
results. Yes, it's a bit more expensive than some of the others, but
it's by far the easiest to repair (IMHO). I also appreciate the non-
flammibility issue.

Having said that, I'm seriously thinking about using Aerotech process on
Doc's new parasol. The reason for that is that Doc wants the airplane
to be as light as possible (His goal is under 400 pounds with a 2180).
And, from what I've seen, it produces a very smooth glossy surface.

I believe the single coat Aerotech system will be considerably lighter
than 6 coats of Polyfiber. (well duh!)

On the other other hand, it will be more difficult to repair without
the repairs showing.



Richard Lamb

http://home.earthlink.net/~n6228l/index.htm

[minot piper e]

Having done a little dope and fabric work
(since 1947) for a thrifty job on a Cub size
acft start out with 50 yds of 2.7 oz dacron
from Acft Spruce and use their uncertified tapes , 25 gals of Certified
Dope (Acft Spruce) . Thin this mess with wash lacquer thinner. Glue your
fabric on with a good quality contact cementYou'l need a couple of cans
of aluminum paste and a roll of dacron ribstitch cord. Is this safe?
well theirs a helluva lot of P51 rudders, a
slew of wild cats, bearcats, B25, Corsairs
a Beech Stagger wing. and yes the rudder off a real Jap Zero, some
French Stampes, and on and on . You should be able to recover a Cub size
acft (experimental) for about 1500 bucks through silver. After hearing
about the
high prices on Imron I checked our local
auto paint supplier and found that premixed colors industril Imron goes
for a little over 100
bucks a gallon and it includes reds and such colors as BFI blue, and
John Dear Green. Minot Piper 325 692 0538


























http://community.webtv.net/minotpiper/HELTONLARKWOODY

[Bob Hoover]

> > Generic polyester fabric, contact cement and dope.
>
> Excellent. Where may this dope be bought? If you buy it from the
> aircraft suppliers you pay an arm and a leg, plus awful hazmat charges.
> >
-----------------------------------------------------------

The local Home Depot (San Marcos, CA) carries nitrocellulose dope.

-------------------------------------------------------------

> > But you left out: Which is lightest in weight?, Which is easiest to
> > apply? and Which is most beloved amongst those who have never done any
> > fabric work at all?, always a hot topic on this Newsgroup :-)

>
> Mr. Hoover, kind sir, could you (or someone else as knowledgeable) answer
> those questions you posed?

------------------------------------------------------------

That was offered tongue-in-cheek. If you're experienced in fabric
work you can do a pretty good job with whatever materials come to
hand. But if you don't know how, you're probably better off going to
one of those 'Workshops.' They'll be happy to sell you a dimes-worth
of information for a dollar, along with their over-priced dope, fabric
& glue. Make you an Instant Expert in all aspects of fabric work :-)

Of course, if you were experienced in fabric work you wouldn't be
asking. The Catch-22 is that you need to know how to do fabric work
before you can appreciate most of the answers you're going to get.

Most homebuilders only cover one airplane in their life, generally
buy-in to one of the package deals, use the tail feathers and control
surfaces to learn on. Usually works out okay but the cost can run two
or three times more than it should. I suggest you try to find an
experienced hand to show you how to rib-stitch, do the taping and so
on. Basic covering is fairly straight-forward but the durability and
appearance of the finished job hinges on a host of details.

-R.S.Hoover

[Ray Toews]

Check, http://hipec.falconaravia.com/, I have used Chris's products
and been very happy with them.

Ray


On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:36:15 GMT, Richard Lamb >
wrote:

>jls wrote:
>>
>> "Jim Weir" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > Before you select the cheapest, may I suggest that you google on "Steve
>> Wittman"
>> > and "accident".
>> >
>> > Jim
>>
>> Hey, Jim, I wouldn't violate an STC. I know all about Steve's tragic
>> accident and have read all the reports and articles. He unwisely used dope
>> as a fastener with the Stits process, which requires a vinyl-based glue and
>> weave filler to fasten dacron polyester to the wing structure. Catastrophic
>> flutter after fabric came loose on a wing or aileron is officially alleged
>> to be the cause of the deadly crash of his O-470-powered O&O Special. May
>> the great Steve Wittman and his new wife RIP.
>>
>> And, by the way, I have used dacron often as a peel-ply for wet layups when
>> doing fiberglas work. That helpful quality of dacron polyester, i. e.,
>> that it doesn't stick and readily peels away after the layup has cured, is
>> enough to put one on notice that you better not use the wrong glue for
>> dacron unless you want to get your aXX busted.
>>
>> I am just trying, cheapskate that I am, to find the best LEGAL covering
>> system for the money, not an aXXbuster.
>>
>> Airtech, I understand, uses a different kind of glue. From what I can read
>> you don't, and can't, fasten dacron to an airframe with glues like dope.
>> You are compelled to penetrate the weave with a glue --Polytak, for
>> example -- which develops its own structure in the woven interstices of the
>> dacron with a web-like grip.
>
>Unlike linen, polyester fiber has no nap. There is nothing for the dope
>to hold on to. Poly Tack (the polyfiber fabric cement) encapsulates the
>polyester fiber, giving good shear and (adequate) peal strength.
>
>After that, the finishing system chosen is probably based more on
>personal
>preference than technical merit.
>
>I used Polyfiber (Stits) on my parasol and am very pleased with the
>results. Yes, it's a bit more expensive than some of the others, but
>it's by far the easiest to repair (IMHO). I also appreciate the non-
>flammibility issue.
>
>Having said that, I'm seriously thinking about using Aerotech process on
>Doc's new parasol. The reason for that is that Doc wants the airplane
>to be as light as possible (His goal is under 400 pounds with a 2180).
>And, from what I've seen, it produces a very smooth glossy surface.
>
>I believe the single coat Aerotech system will be considerably lighter
>than 6 coats of Polyfiber. (well duh!)
>
>On the other other hand, it will be more difficult to repair without
>the repairs showing.
>
>
>
>Richard Lamb
>
>http://home.earthlink.net/~n6228l/index.htm

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:22:49 -0400, " jls" >
wrote:

>
>"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Before you select the cheapest, may I suggest that you google on "Steve
>Wittman"
>> and "accident".
>>
>> Jim
>
>Hey, Jim, I wouldn't violate an STC. I know all about Steve's tragic
>accident and have read all the reports and articles. He unwisely used dope
>as a fastener with the Stits process, which requires a vinyl-based glue and
>weave filler to fasten dacron polyester to the wing structure. Catastrophic
>flutter after fabric came loose on a wing or aileron is officially alleged
>to be the cause of the deadly crash of his O-470-powered O&O Special. May
>the great Steve Wittman and his new wife RIP.
>
>And, by the way, I have used dacron often as a peel-ply for wet layups when
>doing fiberglas work. That helpful quality of dacron polyester, i. e.,
>that it doesn't stick and readily peels away after the layup has cured, is
>enough to put one on notice that you better not use the wrong glue for
>dacron unless you want to get your aXX busted.
>
>I am just trying, cheapskate that I am, to find the best LEGAL covering
>system for the money, not an aXXbuster.
>
>Airtech, I understand, uses a different kind of glue. From what I can read
>you don't, and can't, fasten dacron to an airframe with glues like dope.
>You are compelled to penetrate the weave with a glue --Polytak, for

Vinylester Resin (Dow Derakane) penetrates right through the cloth,
but it still makes good peel ply. It wicks off the excess resin which
your peel off with the Dakron.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>example -- which develops its own structure in the woven interstices of the
>dacron with a web-like grip.
>