Interesting observatoin about the ADIZ-busting C150

[xyzzy]

Fire up AOPA flight planner or any other flight planning software and
plot a direct route, S37-LBT.

The result reinforces my earlier speculation that someone at S37 just
did "direct-to LBT" on a handheld (probably non-aviation) GPS and was
simply flying that line.

If so, dumb. Actually I can't think of any explanation for this that
doesn't conclude: dumb.

[Juan Jimenez]

They didn't have a GPS in the aircraft, indicative of single-digit IQ's.

These two schmucks ought to be hung by their gonads and left to dry in the
wind.

"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
> Fire up AOPA flight planner or any other flight planning software and plot
> a direct route, S37-LBT.
>
> The result reinforces my earlier speculation that someone at S37 just did
> "direct-to LBT" on a handheld (probably non-aviation) GPS and was simply
> flying that line.
>
> If so, dumb. Actually I can't think of any explanation for this that
> doesn't conclude: dumb.
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Well, the pilot's wife said that her husband and talked the night
before about having to maneuver around some airspace, it doesn't sound
like he intended to do a direct. I think he just thought he was
somewhere else.

[Maule Driver]

But you know, all you have to do is keep the entirety of the Cheseapeake Bay
on your right. That's about as prominent a landmark as you can ask for.

There's a bay, an airway, enough information about it to choke a T1.
Dummies!!

You really have to be guilty of 2 things to screw this one up. 1) getting
lost, 2) not taking the entire ADIZ thing around the capitol seriously. The
Notam alone is know to but the fear of the FAA in you. Of course you have
to read it.

Nothing like handcuffs and a few G-men to get your attention.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, the pilot's wife said that her husband and talked the night
> before about having to maneuver around some airspace, it doesn't sound
> like he intended to do a direct. I think he just thought he was
> somewhere else.
>

[BTIZ]

> They didn't have a GPS in the aircraft, indicative of single-digit IQ's.
>

I've been flying for well over 30yrs a maybe have flown with a GPS in the
airplane about 6 times..

It does not take GPS to stay out of restricted airspace.. it takes
pilotage.. and a lot more than single digit IQ.

Perhaps you are a single digit IQ type individual because you think you
can't fly without a GPS.

BT

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <nSahe.32255$fI.370@fed1read05>,
"BTIZ" > wrote:
> > They didn't have a GPS in the aircraft, indicative of single-digit IQ's.
> >
>
> I've been flying for well over 30yrs a maybe have flown with a GPS in the
> airplane about 6 times..
>
> It does not take GPS to stay out of restricted airspace.. it takes
> pilotage.. and a lot more than single digit IQ.


You're right, it doesn't. But in today's world, GPS technology is
available and affordable, and when you're weaving your way around
sensitive airspace, it's a very, very good idea to use all available
technology to your benefit--regardless of how good your pilotage skills
may be.



JKG

[No Spam]

On 5/13/05 20:27, "Jonathan Goodish" > wrote:

> In article <nSahe.32255$fI.370@fed1read05>,
> "BTIZ" > wrote:
>>> They didn't have a GPS in the aircraft, indicative of single-digit IQ's.
>>>
>>
>> I've been flying for well over 30yrs a maybe have flown with a GPS in the
>> airplane about 6 times..
>>
>> It does not take GPS to stay out of restricted airspace.. it takes
>> pilotage.. and a lot more than single digit IQ.
>
>
> You're right, it doesn't. But in today's world, GPS technology is
> available and affordable, and when you're weaving your way around
> sensitive airspace, it's a very, very good idea to use all available
> technology to your benefit--regardless of how good your pilotage skills
> may be.
>
>
>
> JKG

Speaking of technology, what about "flight following"?

-> Don
All that is complex is not useful. All that is useful is simple.
- Mikhail Kalashnikov

[A Lieberman]

On Sat, 14 May 2005 09:00:17 -0500, No Spam wrote:

> Speaking of technology, what about "flight following"?

Only if ATC can handle the traffic.

Otherwise, from what I understand, you cannot enter the ADIZ unless you are
squawking and talking.

I have heard of planes having to circle for a significant amount of time
waiting for the squawk code on a "pop up" basis.

Allen

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
A Lieberman > wrote:

> On Sat, 14 May 2005 09:00:17 -0500, No Spam wrote:
>
> > Speaking of technology, what about "flight following"?
>
> Only if ATC can handle the traffic.
>
> Otherwise, from what I understand, you cannot enter the ADIZ unless you are
> squawking and talking.


I think the point about flight following is that the pilots in question
likely would have been alerted to the fact that they were going to bust
it before they busted it. They didn't need to go through it, just
around it.

Since it apparently took them a while to tune in to 121.50 after the
intercept, I doubt they were talking or listening to anything useful on
the radio.


JKG

[A Lieberman]

On Sat, 14 May 2005 13:53:54 -0400, Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> In article >,
> A Lieberman > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 May 2005 09:00:17 -0500, No Spam wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of technology, what about "flight following"?
>>
>> Only if ATC can handle the traffic.
>>
>> Otherwise, from what I understand, you cannot enter the ADIZ unless you are
>> squawking and talking.
>
>
> I think the point about flight following is that the pilots in question
> likely would have been alerted to the fact that they were going to bust
> it before they busted it. They didn't need to go through it, just
> around it.

Jonathon

If they were squawking and talking (I.E flight following), then there is
nothing to "bust".

Not unless you have something different in mind when you refer to flight
following?

Allen

[[email protected]]

> > I think the point about flight following is that the pilots in
question
> > likely would have been alerted to the fact that they were going to
bust
> > it before they busted it. They didn't need to go through it, just
> > around it.
>
> Jonathon
>
> If they were squawking and talking (I.E flight following), then there
is
> nothing to "bust".
>
> Allen

Flight Following does not guarrantee anything. The PIC still shoulders
primary responsibility to avoiid restricted airspace and other aircraft
(in VMC). ATC usually does a good job about reminding participating
aircraft of airspace and tracks/targets, but just because you have FF
does not automatically give you carte blanche to enter class B or class
D or any airspace except the airspace "owned" by the controlling agency
providing the service. Nine times out of ten, ATC will coordinate the
appropriate clearance but if they get busy and forget, you're screwed
if you thought you can use FF as a defense.
Tim

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
A Lieberman > wrote:
> > I think the point about flight following is that the pilots in question
> > likely would have been alerted to the fact that they were going to bust
> > it before they busted it. They didn't need to go through it, just
> > around it.
>
> Jonathon
>
> If they were squawking and talking (I.E flight following), then there is
> nothing to "bust".


I believe that entry into the ADIZ requires more than just "squawking
and talking," as does entry into Class B airspace. Establishment of
two-way radio communication, even under flight following, is not the
same thing as a clearance.



JKG

[Ron Natalie]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

>
>
> I believe that entry into the ADIZ requires more than just "squawking
> and talking," as does entry into Class B airspace.

The ADIZ requires:
1. A filed ADIZ flight plan.
2. An assigned code.
3. Communciations with ATC.

It does not require any sort of clearance or permission.

> Establishment of
> two-way radio communication, even under flight following, is not the
> same thing as a clearance.

A clearance is NOT required for the ADIZ.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Ron Natalie > wrote:
> > I believe that entry into the ADIZ requires more than just "squawking
> > and talking," as does entry into Class B airspace.
>
> The ADIZ requires:
> 1. A filed ADIZ flight plan.
> 2. An assigned code.
> 3. Communciations with ATC.

Like I said, it requires more than "squawking and talking." The
airplane in question did not have a filed flight plan into the ADIZ.


> > Establishment of
> > two-way radio communication, even under flight following, is not the
> > same thing as a clearance.
>
> A clearance is NOT required for the ADIZ.

Not my point. If the ADIZ wasn't there, there would still be Class B
airspace, which does require a clearance for entry, not just "squawking
and talking."



JKG

[Michael 182]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

> Flight Following does not guarrantee anything. The PIC still shoulders
> primary responsibility to avoiid restricted airspace and other aircraft
> (in VMC).

Nor does flying IFR. You are unlikely to be vectored or get a clearance that
would lead you into restricted airspace, but if you go there you are still
the one who gets busted, not the controller.

Michael

[Ron Natalie]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

>
> Not my point. If the ADIZ wasn't there, there would still be Class B
> airspace, which does require a clearance for entry, not just "squawking
> and talking."
>
The ADIZ and the FRZ comprise airspace that is outside of the class B.
Following the ADIZ or FRZ procedures don't obviate your need to follow
the class B rules (clearance required) or vice versa.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Ron Natalie > wrote:
> > Not my point. If the ADIZ wasn't there, there would still be Class B
> > airspace, which does require a clearance for entry, not just "squawking
> > and talking."
> >
> The ADIZ and the FRZ comprise airspace that is outside of the class B.
> Following the ADIZ or FRZ procedures don't obviate your need to follow
> the class B rules (clearance required) or vice versa.

Understood, but in the case of the errant pilot, he was well within
Class B inside the ADIZ. He didn't have an ADIZ flight plan. So my
point is that even if he had flight following, he would have busted the
ADIZ, and if the ADIZ hadn't been there, he would have busted Class B
airspace.



JKG

[LWG]

This is, of course, correct. But that did not stop some Potomac TRACON
controllers from saying "Cleared into the ADIZ." This past Thursday, I was
told that my ADIZ entry was "approved."

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Jonathan Goodish wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I believe that entry into the ADIZ requires more than just "squawking and
>> talking," as does entry into Class B airspace.
>
> The ADIZ requires:
> 1. A filed ADIZ flight plan.
> 2. An assigned code.
> 3. Communciations with ATC.
>
> It does not require any sort of clearance or permission.
>
>> Establishment of two-way radio communication, even under flight
>> following, is not the same thing as a clearance.
>
> A clearance is NOT required for the ADIZ.

[Ron Natalie]

LWG wrote:
> This is, of course, correct. But that did not stop some Potomac TRACON
> controllers from saying "Cleared into the ADIZ." This past Thursday, I was
> told that my ADIZ entry was "approved."
>
This has been a continual training issue...the real disaster was that
they established all this ADIZ nonsense at the same time the various
approach controls were getting established in the new Potomac Tracon
facility so it was even inconsistant from sector to sector.
Mostly they say approved because pilots like to hear something, but
there's no operational or regulatory requirement for it.



>

[Ron Natalie]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

>
> Understood, but in the case of the errant pilot, he was well within
> Class B inside the ADIZ. He didn't have an ADIZ flight plan. So my
> point is that even if he had flight following, he would have busted the
> ADIZ, and if the ADIZ hadn't been there, he would have busted Class B
> airspace.
>
This clown had no clue at all. When he saw the helicopters hee thought
he busted P-40 which is nowhere near a direct route of flight from his
home field to the destination nor near where he was. It's no clear
what his planned route was supposed to be.