Any Apache drivers ?

[omk]

Hi all,

Back into aircraft ownership, this time I was able to go whole four
months without an airplane ! After owning couple Cessnas, I got hold of
a '56 PA-23-150 project, completely stock except for newer radios,
cleveland wheels, and the (Horton ?) tips. My friend and I are going
through a partial restoration, its been a lot of fun. Engines and props
are good, had to do the flap torque tube AD, all new tires, generator
bracket & belt, rebuild two struts, bunch of new seals, o-rings, etc,
etc.

So... just curious if there are any other Apache pilots in the NG. All
the old timers at the field stop by the hangar periodically and
reminisce about flying these machines. We really have it apart and I've
been nothing short of impressed by the workmanship and effort that must
have gone into building the thing.

I've never flown twins (ok, this is more of a two-part 300hp engine
;-), but after doing a ground runup with fistful of throttles, there is
really no going back, is there...

Martin

[Jim Burns]

My partners and I all did our initial MEL in a 23-150... shopped hard for
one until we realized that we really wanted something with more payload.
Stepped up to a '66 Aztec, and even though it drinks almost twice the fuel
of it's little brother, we love it so far. As far as the workmanship and
effort, the way some of the cables and wires are routed, they went through a
lot of effort but basically it's a tube frame that they wrapped aluminum
around and said, "Hey, put a screw or ten in it, that should hold it."
Built like a brick-s*t house for guys with strong wrists or electric
screwdrivers.

Sounds like you're already up to speed on several of the AD's, other things
to watch for include
Leaky hydraulic power pac
Janitrol or Southwind heater AD's, lots of info and parts at
www.aircraftheater.com
old or dried out fuel bladders
Hartzell prop and hub AD's
50 hour AD for fuel leakage inspection
100 hour ADs for fuel valve inspection, engine mounts, exhaust cracks
Outboard flap hinge inspection

You may want to consider dual generators and electric fuel pumps or even an
electric back up hydraulic pump as long as you have everything torn a part.
Copper battery cables would also be on my list, makes starting less
strenuous on the 12v battery.

I'm sure Denny can fill you in on more.

Jim

"omk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Back into aircraft ownership, this time I was able to go whole four
> months without an airplane ! After owning couple Cessnas, I got hold of
> a '56 PA-23-150 project, completely stock except for newer radios,
> cleveland wheels, and the (Horton ?) tips. My friend and I are going
> through a partial restoration, its been a lot of fun. Engines and props
> are good, had to do the flap torque tube AD, all new tires, generator
> bracket & belt, rebuild two struts, bunch of new seals, o-rings, etc,
> etc.
>
> So... just curious if there are any other Apache pilots in the NG. All
> the old timers at the field stop by the hangar periodically and
> reminisce about flying these machines. We really have it apart and I've
> been nothing short of impressed by the workmanship and effort that must
> have gone into building the thing.
>
> I've never flown twins (ok, this is more of a two-part 300hp engine
> ;-), but after doing a ground runup with fistful of throttles, there is
> really no going back, is there...
>
> Martin
>

[nobody]

Like Jim, I am an Aztec owner. Mine is a '64C model. Big
brother of the Apache with the same PA23 designator. Welcome
to twin-land. The fist full of throttles is fun to fly but it looses some
of its attractivness every time I stop for fuel :-)



"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> My partners and I all did our initial MEL in a 23-150... shopped hard for
> one until we realized that we really wanted something with more payload.
> Stepped up to a '66 Aztec, and even though it drinks almost twice the fuel
> of it's little brother, we love it so far. As far as the workmanship and
> effort, the way some of the cables and wires are routed, they went through
> a
> lot of effort but basically it's a tube frame that they wrapped aluminum
> around and said, "Hey, put a screw or ten in it, that should hold it."
> Built like a brick-s*t house for guys with strong wrists or electric
> screwdrivers.
>
> Sounds like you're already up to speed on several of the AD's, other
> things
> to watch for include
> Leaky hydraulic power pac
> Janitrol or Southwind heater AD's, lots of info and parts at
> www.aircraftheater.com
> old or dried out fuel bladders
> Hartzell prop and hub AD's
> 50 hour AD for fuel leakage inspection
> 100 hour ADs for fuel valve inspection, engine mounts, exhaust cracks
> Outboard flap hinge inspection
>
> You may want to consider dual generators and electric fuel pumps or even
> an
> electric back up hydraulic pump as long as you have everything torn a
> part.
> Copper battery cables would also be on my list, makes starting less
> strenuous on the 12v battery.
>
> I'm sure Denny can fill you in on more.
>
> Jim
>
> "omk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Back into aircraft ownership, this time I was able to go whole four
>> months without an airplane ! After owning couple Cessnas, I got hold of
>> a '56 PA-23-150 project, completely stock except for newer radios,
>> cleveland wheels, and the (Horton ?) tips. My friend and I are going
>> through a partial restoration, its been a lot of fun. Engines and props
>> are good, had to do the flap torque tube AD, all new tires, generator
>> bracket & belt, rebuild two struts, bunch of new seals, o-rings, etc,
>> etc.
>>
>> So... just curious if there are any other Apache pilots in the NG. All
>> the old timers at the field stop by the hangar periodically and
>> reminisce about flying these machines. We really have it apart and I've
>> been nothing short of impressed by the workmanship and effort that must
>> have gone into building the thing.
>>
>> I've never flown twins (ok, this is more of a two-part 300hp engine
>> ;-), but after doing a ground runup with fistful of throttles, there is
>> really no going back, is there...
>>
>> Martin
>>
>
>

[Chuck]

>So... just curious if there are any other Apache pilots in the NG. All
>the old timers at the field stop by the hangar periodically and
>reminisce about flying these machines. We really have it apart and I've
>been nothing short of impressed by the workmanship and effort that must
>have gone into building the thing.
>
>Martin

Not an owner, but helped a local school get one up off the ground
recently. See attached picture. Story goes like this:

<SETTING> Student and Instructor in parked Aztec with engines running.

Instructor reading down checklist gets to "Gear down and locked".

Kid in pilot seat "Gear down and locked" at which he promptly reaches
over and pulls the gear handle UP!

Instructor hearing the warning klaxon as the gear starts going up --
reaches over and pulls the mixture on both engines. As the left one
(with the pump on it) winds down, the gear stops retracting. JUST in
time to keep the props from striking.

Turns out the safety switch (that is supposed to keep that from
happening) wasn't working and probably hadn't been checked in years.

We got it back up and pumped the gear down. Copilot side wouldn't
lock down. Turns out it bend a brace up at the top that had to be
sent to California to get straightened. But that was all the damage
(besides of course, the student's embarrassment and the school's
wallet for the repairs).

I mention it so you will be sure to check those locking cams, the
"locked-in" indicator switches, and the safeties. Enjoy her after the
refurb...


Chuck
Cherokee-180 7498W

[Chuck]

>Martin

Woops,

Forgot to attach the picture.



Chuck

[Denny]

Martin, Fat Albert is a 1957 Apache... Serial number 23-969... The
guys have pretty well covered the gotchas in their posts...
The flap torque tube AD is a killer because you have to extract it,
drill out the rivets, dye penetrate, etc., every year... After a
couple of times you will go looking for non AD parts... The steel
torque tube itself is not too bad a hit on the wallet - though
everything for airplanes is ten times overpriced... The torque arm is
the killer - Piper wanted $1600 for a dash-6 arm... I lucked out and
found a used one for half that... So, that AD has gone away... The
annoying part is that the failures have been in planes that were
abused, dumping full flaps above the white arc, etc., yet we have to
pay the piper (pun intentional) for their behavior...

The hub/blades AD is recurrent... Someday you will belly up to the bar
for a non AD set... I've been happy with mine and the big spinners make
it look good... Fat Albert has been putting on airs every since he got
the new blades, thinks he is a mini airliner now...

The heater is another issue as the guys pointed out... If you are in a
warmer part of the country, just cobble it up and keep it going... If
the fire tube is cracked then you are at the cross roads between
overhaul and new... I chose to spring for a new C&D heater (gorgeous
stainless can) with a warranty - living where I do at the 45th
parallel....

The guys did forget the rudder hinge, dye penetration AD... Important,
especially if the airplane has set out in the weather with the rudder
banging around...

If your plane doesn't have the dorsal fin and wing fairings on the
inside engine cowlings, get them and install... Night and day
difference in engine out handling...

Beyond that, it is only the usual problems of flying old iron... So
grab yourself a fist full of throttles and feel like a real man....


denny

[Ron Natalie]

Chuck wrote:

>
> Instructor hearing the warning klaxon as the gear starts going up --
> reaches over and pulls the mixture on both engines. As the left one
> (with the pump on it) winds down, the gear stops retracting. JUST in
> time to keep the props from striking.
>
He's lucky it wasn't a Navion. On the Navion, the engine driven
pump will develop enough power to drop her on her nose from just
the starter spinning the engine with the handle in the UP position.

I know of only one Navion with a squat switch, the plane wasn't
designed with one.

[xyzzy]

Chuck wrote:

>>Martin
>
>
> Woops,
>
> Forgot to attach the picture.
>
>
>
> Chuck
>

Most of us won't be able to see it. Most news servers strip pictures.
Suggest you put it on a website (like a free geocities site) and provide
a link.

[omk]

Denny,

Thanks for the reply - saw your plane on Jay's site, looks very nice !

We are replacing the torque tube w/ steel, the bellcrank is an
obnoxious one, and they are really proud of p/n 16423-06, $1695 list
now! I'll try to find a used one, it would be nice to avoid all that
floor disassembly next time... If you have any good sources for used
parts, I would appreciate a reference, too. I've been in touch with
John Lumley down in Florida (The Flying Apache Assoc.), he is a great
resource, too.

We do have the nacelle fairings installed, but not the fin. I've been
looking at those, not sure I want to do the whole square rudder, but
looks like Diamond Aire sells just the dorsal is that what you have ?
Any measurable SE performance gain ?

Thanks,

Martin

[omk]

Good story !

I don't think there is a "switch", just a valve on the left gear that
causes the fluid to bypass the actuators when the strut is compressed.
I didn't know about this and spent a good hour "troubleshooting" the
gear when the airplane was jacked up, wheels off (no weight to extend
the deflated strut). Anyway, at least I know it *is* working ! :-)

Martin

[Denny]

I'm not a fan of the square look... Keep em round... Jeez, I dunno off
the top of my head who produced the fairing I have, it's mucho decades
old... You will need to do the home work and see if there is a fat
fairing languishing in some shops attic... Call the airplane wreckers
also....
Yeah, in my mind there is a significant improvement in safety with the
dorsal fin... When I do engine cuts (altitude) and let the speedo go
below Vmc, the plane is mushing out of the sky before it offers to
start going roundy, roundy - I have never let it get deep into that, no
cajones Senor.... My understanding is that in the original
configuration with the wasp waist fuselage an Apache could do an abrupt
break into an inverted spin that got a few pilots...

cheers ... denny

[Scott Skylane]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> I know of only one Navion with a squat switch, the plane wasn't
> designed with one.

That's interesting, Ron. Do you know what, exactly, the switch did(i.e
operate a solenoid that blocked the gear handle, or somesuch)?

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[Ron Natalie]

Scott Skylane wrote:
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> I know of only one Navion with a squat switch, the plane wasn't
>> designed with one.
>
>
> That's interesting, Ron. Do you know what, exactly, the switch did(i.e
> operate a solenoid that blocked the gear handle, or somesuch)?
>
Exactly, there's actually a secondary gear lock (this was either an SB
or AD, probably an AD I've never seen a Navion that doesn't have it).
Normally the only thing that keeps you from raising the gear is that you
have to pull out the handle over a detent. The seconary lock is a
small lever that hooks over the handle (behind the panel). I believe
Don added a solenoid that makes it impossible to release the secondary
lock on the ground.

Frankly, the inadvertant retracts that I know about have all been after
maintenance.

[Tom Inglima]

It has probably been twenty years since flying an Apache. It was always a
good sturdy airplane that was not very demanding and pretty honest. One
important thing is like lots of other low HP twins, it is important to
understand that except when very light, single engine performance is really,
really poor.

It may have 300 total HP, but even with both sides making maximum noise,
performance is a little better than a 200 HP Arrow, but not much more.

If you have a standard configuration airplane there is only one hydraulic
pump (Left engine if memory is still not totally gone) That means if you
lose the left engine right after T.O. with the gear still down, you will
first have to decide if you can afford to let that engine windmill a while
raising the gear (Watch the RPM and make sure the engine is not going to
unwind below the feathering lockout pin RPM) If you just have to feather
that engine right now (the usual case if you do not have several hundred
feet already) you will now be a busy bee trying to pull out the aux hyd pump
handle and then pumping with your right hand while flying with your left
while trying to raise the gear. Let there be no doubt, unless you raise the
gear, the altimeter will be going the wrong way.

The solution to this is a STC installation of an electric powered hydraulic
pump. It has a nice little spring loaded push button switch right on the
gear and flap console, so all you have to do is reach over, raise the gear
handle, hold the button and wait a little while for the gear handle to snap
back to the neutral position. Other than your personal skill in
multi-engine skills this STC is one of the best safety items you can get.

If you are going to be like most multi-engine non-pro pilots, you will not
be very proficient with multi-engine skills. Proficiency is the best and
cheapest insurance you can buy. Get a really good instructor and don't
settle for anything other than becoming and then staying (that means lots of
continuous practice with a sharp AME CFI) really proficient.

If you get and stay proficient you will be happy. If you don't, then you
are betting that nothing will ever go wrong.

By the way. None of this is meant to mean that the Apache is not a good
airplane, it is a great airplane, it is just like many other low HP light
twin's

Tom

"omk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Back into aircraft ownership, this time I was able to go whole four
> months without an airplane ! After owning couple Cessnas, I got hold of
> a '56 PA-23-150 project, completely stock except for newer radios,
> cleveland wheels, and the (Horton ?) tips. My friend and I are going
> through a partial restoration, its been a lot of fun. Engines and props
> are good, had to do the flap torque tube AD, all new tires, generator
> bracket & belt, rebuild two struts, bunch of new seals, o-rings, etc,
> etc.
>
> So... just curious if there are any other Apache pilots in the NG. All
> the old timers at the field stop by the hangar periodically and
> reminisce about flying these machines. We really have it apart and I've
> been nothing short of impressed by the workmanship and effort that must
> have gone into building the thing.
>
> I've never flown twins (ok, this is more of a two-part 300hp engine
> ;-), but after doing a ground runup with fistful of throttles, there is
> really no going back, is there...
>
> Martin
>