Key Locks -- Part II

[Jay Honeck]

After reading the other posts about key locks, the responses brought another
question to mind.

My key ignition switch works very hard, and the key can be removed in any
position. It's hard to push it in and keep the starter engaged (it's one
of those turn-while-you-push switches), so we usually end up pushing it
several times to get the engine started.

Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
"replace-only" job?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
: "replace-only" job?
: --

Unlikely to be repairable without some questionable dissasembly. Those
switches are usually made with little metal tabs bent to hold on the back plate
insulator. The tabs have to be be unbent to remove, and then rebent to reinstall.
There's probably some impressive spring assembly in there, as well (to take care of
the rotational spring, and the push-in spring).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
> "replace-only" job?

I had a similar problem with mine (the key would actually FALL OUT)
in flight and it would appear to be in the OFF position and still
leave one MAG hot. I just replaced the blasted thing. A new bendix
switch wasn't that much. My ignition key didn't match the canopy
or baggage compartment locks anyhow.

[Jay Honeck]

> I had a similar problem with mine (the key would actually FALL OUT)
> in flight and it would appear to be in the OFF position and still
> leave one MAG hot. I just replaced the blasted thing. A new bendix
> switch wasn't that much. My ignition key didn't match the canopy
> or baggage compartment locks anyhow.

Now, for the real question:

Do I have to get this part from Piper (for big $$$), or can I use the
(apparently identical) switch shown in the Aircraft Spruce catalog?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michelle P]

Jay,
If the part is TSO or PMA with equiv part number it is fine.....
Michelle


Jay Honeck wrote:

>After reading the other posts about key locks, the responses brought another
>question to mind.
>
>My key ignition switch works very hard, and the key can be removed in any
>position. It's hard to push it in and keep the starter engaged (it's one
>of those turn-while-you-push switches), so we usually end up pushing it
>several times to get the engine started.
>
>Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
>"replace-only" job?
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

You may actually have an AD that requires you to replace the mag
switch. I had to replace mine two years ago after a shop showed me an
AD that says it must be replaced if the key can be removed in flight. I
have no idea why the hell such an AD exists.
-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

It must have a TSO or STC. If the TSO lists your aircraft then you are
good to go. I would be surprised if this isn't the case.
-Robert

[Jim Burns]

I was trying to remember just what that AD was about. I remember reading it
a couple years ago, but do not know why. Wasn't there something in the AD
about the switch malfunctioning and actually leaving one or both mags hot
when the switch was turned to off in addition to the key comeing out? Seems
like I also remember an inspection and lubrication requirement.

Maybe I was just dreaming.

Jim

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> You may actually have an AD that requires you to replace the mag
> switch. I had to replace mine two years ago after a shop showed me an
> AD that says it must be replaced if the key can be removed in flight. I
> have no idea why the hell such an AD exists.
> -Robert
>

[nrp]

There also was a part of that AD that required an operational test in
which the key is forcefully (no torque spec but plenty aggressively)
turned CCW beyond OFF to see if the engine keeps running. Some
aircraft including our 172M, would relight again.

A new switch wasn't that expensive about 5 years ago (like $100). It
came as part of a kit replacing all of the locks in the airframe. The
tumbler setup and key etc was more robust that the Cessna OEM key.

[Jim Burns]

AH!! That's where I read it... when studying for my CFI ride in a 182RG.
Thanks!
Jim

"nrp" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> There also was a part of that AD that required an operational test in
> which the key is forcefully (no torque spec but plenty aggressively)
> turned CCW beyond OFF to see if the engine keeps running. Some
> aircraft including our 172M, would relight again.
>
> A new switch wasn't that expensive about 5 years ago (like $100). It
> came as part of a kit replacing all of the locks in the airframe. The
> tumbler setup and key etc was more robust that the Cessna OEM key.
>

[[email protected]]

Jim Burns wrote:
> I was trying to remember just what that AD was about. I remember
reading it
> a couple years ago, but do not know why. Wasn't there something in
the AD
> about the switch malfunctioning and actually leaving one or both mags
hot
> when the switch was turned to off in addition to the key comeing out?
Seems
> like I also remember an inspection and lubrication requirement.
>
> Maybe I was just dreaming.
>

You remembered pretty accurately. The switch test involved turning
off the engine via the mags and making sure they both grounded. If
not, it's replacement time. If the key came out in any position other
than "off", it's also replacement time.

On Sunday I was doing a BFR in a rental. During the engine out
glide, the instructor reached over and switched the mags off and pulled
the key out. He thought it would rattle/distract me. I had a really
good laugh when he couldn't get it back in. He was starting to look
kind of worried passing through 1000 AGL.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Mark Hansen]

On 5/17/2005 14:33, wrote:

> Jim Burns wrote:
>> I was trying to remember just what that AD was about. I remember
> reading it
>> a couple years ago, but do not know why. Wasn't there something in
> the AD
>> about the switch malfunctioning and actually leaving one or both mags
> hot
>> when the switch was turned to off in addition to the key comeing out?
> Seems
>> like I also remember an inspection and lubrication requirement.
>>
>> Maybe I was just dreaming.
>>
>
> You remembered pretty accurately. The switch test involved turning
> off the engine via the mags and making sure they both grounded. If
> not, it's replacement time. If the key came out in any position other
> than "off", it's also replacement time.

The FBO where I currently rent asks that we do an "Ignition Grounding Check"
each time we shut down the engine. I've always thought it was a good idea.

>
> On Sunday I was doing a BFR in a rental. During the engine out
> glide, the instructor reached over and switched the mags off and pulled
> the key out. He thought it would rattle/distract me. I had a really
> good laugh when he couldn't get it back in. He was starting to look
> kind of worried passing through 1000 AGL.

I thought that actually shutting off the engine during a simulated
engine out situation was really frowned upon?

>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Mike Spera]

Jay,

Actually, it is not as bad as you think. The Piper ignition lock (aka a
"bendix" switch) and be easily dismantled and repaired. There are 3
screws in the back of the thing and, once removed, the back can be
carefully lifted off without losing the springs by keeping the lock
oriented with the back up. Once done, you will see the contacts with the
springs behind them and holding them (the contacts)up.

I BELIEVE you can then take the lock to a smith who can replce the
tumbler pins and keys. I BELIEVE I saw a repair kit for these locks at
one of the aviation joints (Chief, Spruce, etc) that had new contacts
and springs and maybe a new contact backplate.

I also think I saw that Wag-Aero sold entire new units that replaced
these dudes for about $100.

Take your pick (no pun intended).

Good Luck,
Mike

Jay Honeck wrote:
> After reading the other posts about key locks, the responses brought another
> question to mind.
>
> My key ignition switch works very hard, and the key can be removed in any
> position. It's hard to push it in and keep the starter engaged (it's one
> of those turn-while-you-push switches), so we usually end up pushing it
> several times to get the engine started.
>
> Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
> "replace-only" job?

[RST Engineering]

Radio Shack is your friend. They have a couple of different contact
cleaners (some of them say "tuner cleaner", which is the REALLY good stuff)
in spray bottles.

Take the mag switch out of the panel. Get Mary to do it. A little person
wriggling around under the panel is a WHOLE LOT more comfortable than you or
I.

Put a rag under the switch. Squirt a liberal amount of cleaner into the
switch through the key hole. Key rotate it fast from stop to stop. Repeat
cleaner. Repeat rotate.

If you don't get results, replace the switch. It only cost you a couple of
bucks to try.

Jim



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:N2lie.1536$WG.602@attbi_s22...
> After reading the other posts about key locks, the responses brought
> another question to mind.
>
> My key ignition switch works very hard, and the key can be removed in any
> position. It's hard to push it in and keep the starter engaged (it's one
> of those turn-while-you-push switches), so we usually end up pushing it
> several times to get the engine started.
>
> Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
> "replace-only" job?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[George Patterson]

RST Engineering wrote:
>
> It only cost you a couple of bucks to try.

A couple of bucks and a nice dinner for Mary.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

[Chuck]

On Tue, 17 May 2005 09:29:56 -0400, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

>Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> Can that ignition switch be dismantled and repaired, or is this a
>> "replace-only" job?
>
>I had a similar problem with mine (the key would actually FALL OUT)
>in flight and it would appear to be in the OFF position and still
>leave one MAG hot. I just replaced the blasted thing. A new bendix
>switch wasn't that much. My ignition key didn't match the canopy
>or baggage compartment locks anyhow.

Besides,

Isn't there a reoccuring AD on those Bendix ignition switches???
Something about leaving the mags hot even if you turn it to the off
position. Why not just replace it and not have to worry about a
reoccuring AD or the hi effort problem?


Chuck

[Dave Butler]

Chuck wrote:
>
> Isn't there a reoccuring AD on those Bendix ignition switches???
> Something about leaving the mags hot even if you turn it to the off
> position. Why not just replace it and not have to worry about a
> reoccuring AD or the hi effort problem?

Google AD 76-07-12.

Dave

[Jay Honeck]

> On Sunday I was doing a BFR in a rental. During the engine out
> glide, the instructor reached over and switched the mags off and pulled
> the key out. He thought it would rattle/distract me. I had a really
> good laugh when he couldn't get it back in. He was starting to look
> kind of worried passing through 1000 AGL.

Anyone who did that to me would not be able to get out of the plane
unassisted.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Take the mag switch out of the panel. Get Mary to do it. A little person
> wriggling around under the panel is a WHOLE LOT more comfortable than you
> or I.

Hey -- I'm only 89.9% of the guy I was a year ago! (177 pounds, as of
yesterday...)

;-)

But you're still right -- I HATE climbing around under that panel....

> Put a rag under the switch. Squirt a liberal amount of cleaner into the
> switch through the key hole. Key rotate it fast from stop to stop.
> Repeat cleaner. Repeat rotate.

Is there any reason I have to remove the switch from the panel to try this?
Can I put a rag behind it in the panel, and try cleaning it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Google AD 76-07-12.

Thanks, Dave.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RST Engineering]

Sorry. I left out something that I took for granted. You hold the switch
terminals down, keyhole up and squirt/rotate. That means that the cleaner
goop (that's a technical term, you'll get used to it) has to travel through
the switch mechanisms and out the back end before it gives up. If you
squirt it with the switch in the normal horizontal position, all you clean
is the bottom end and most of it will run back out the keyhole. Most
switches won't let you get the little nozzle straw far enough into the
keyhole to really spray the innards.

As to the AD on that switch, the owner can do the AD and sign it off. It is
REALLY HARD to do. You fire the airplane up. You take it to the runup
area. You turn the switch "off" with some reasonable force. If the engine
stops, the AD passes. Ten seconds at the outside. And that is worth a $150
switch to get rid of the AD? $150 buys more beer than even JAY can drink in
a day.

I teach a similar trick to my students for computer 12 volt fans that start
howling. Two small bowls or coffee cans. Half-fill one with paint thinner
and one with a 50-50 solution of MMO and paint thinner. Run the fan for an
hour submerged in the paint thinner (cleans all the crap out of the
innards). Run it for an hour submerged in the MMO solution. Run it for
thirty seconds in the thinner again to get the surface oil off. Set it on a
paper towel to drain. In 95% of the cases you have pretty much a new fan.

Of course, I would NEVER EVER suggest that trick to something that goes on a
certificated blessed stamped and exonerated aircraft. The fact that it
works has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it.

BTW, gang, those computer 12 volt fans are just the trick for avionics that
need a bit of extra cooling. In a homebuilt, of course.

Jim



>
> Is there any reason I have to remove the switch from the panel to try
> this? Can I put a rag behind it in the panel, and try cleaning it?

[nrp]

When it was demonstrated to me by the local CRS, the beyond-off force
(moment) capability was maybe "reasonable" - at least it didn't go so
far as needing a pliars on the key - but it was substantial. I took it
apart & fixed it. Otherwise we had to replace it on the 172.

I'm saving the old one for a homebuilt.

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Take the mag switch out of the panel. Get Mary to do it. A little person
>>wriggling around under the panel is a WHOLE LOT more comfortable than you
>>or I.
>
>
> Hey -- I'm only 89.9% of the guy I was a year ago! (177 pounds, as of
> yesterday...)

I was down to 183 as of this morning, down to about 85%.

[Ron Natalie]

RST Engineering wrote:

> As to the AD on that switch, the owner can do the AD and sign it off. It is
> REALLY HARD to do. You fire the airplane up. You take it to the runup
> area. You turn the switch "off" with some reasonable force. If the engine
> stops, the AD passes. Ten seconds at the outside. And that is worth a $150
> switch to get rid of the AD? $150 buys more beer than even JAY can drink in
> a day.
>
While it's probably obvious to most people, I just want to make sure
people understand this is to be done with the throttle at IDLE. Do
not crank it up to $1700 and do something that might cycle both mags
off and on again. You'll do what Rod Machado refers to as his
student's click-click-click-BANG mag check. Not good for the
exhaust.

[Jay Honeck]

>> Hey -- I'm only 89.9% of the guy I was a year ago! (177 pounds, as of
>> yesterday...)
>
> I was down to 183 as of this morning, down to about 85%.

Wow -- we just keep gaining more useful load by the day!

Of course, arguably, you and I own the two singles with the highest useful
loads on the group, so our efforts are obviously solely for health and
vanity reasons...

:-)

So what's your secret?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Sorry. I left out something that I took for granted.

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.

Always remember you're dealing with the electronically impaired here. Even
the most basic concepts should never be taken for granted!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
>
> I thought that actually shutting off the engine during a simulated
> engine out situation was really frowned upon?
>

It probably is frowned upon by some. IMHO, If you really want to
shut the engine off during a glide, you should use the mixture. With
only the ignition off, the fuel/air mixture is still cycling through
the cylinders and soaking your plugs.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Anyone who did that to me would not be able to get out of the plane
> unassisted.

In some other situation I might have been ****ed. But on this flight,
he was the PIC (my BFR was expired), plus I was 1,000 ft. AGL, right
next to an automotive proving ground. There were several miles of
usable runway right under me. Landing there safely would have been
easier than at an airport.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> While it's probably obvious to most people, I just want to make sure
> people understand this is to be done with the throttle at IDLE. Do
> not crank it up to $1700
<snip>

$1700? Freudian slip, or were you subliminally describing the end
result of the explosion on the exhaust system? ;-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> So what's your secret?

Margy is doing weight watchers, I'm just following along./

[Mike Spera]

Looked in the Wag-aero catalog. The Bendix "for most Pipers" with the
PMA seal of approval os $239. The brand X unit without any pedigree is
around $90. Both come with 2 keys.

Mike

[RST Engineering]

....and they look REMARKABLY similar.

BTW, most lock shops can retumble the mag switch to match your door key for
Cessna and Piper. Not sure about other marques.

Jim


"Mike Spera" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Looked in the Wag-aero catalog. The Bendix "for most Pipers" with the PMA
> seal of approval os $239. The brand X unit without any pedigree is around
> $90. Both come with 2 keys.
>
> Mike

[Margy]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>Hey -- I'm only 89.9% of the guy I was a year ago! (177 pounds, as of
>>>yesterday...)
>>
>>I was down to 183 as of this morning, down to about 85%.
>
>
> Wow -- we just keep gaining more useful load by the day!
>
> Of course, arguably, you and I own the two singles with the highest useful
> loads on the group, so our efforts are obviously solely for health and
> vanity reasons...
>
> :-)
>
> So what's your secret?
I joined Weight Watchers, he's losing the weight :-( . Actually I've
lost 17 lbs and the sole reason was the trip to Australia. I figure
every pound I lose is a pound of stuff I can buy as we are flying around
the outback for two weeks!!

Margy (just finished the best chinese scallops Ron ever cooked!!)

[Montblack]

("Margy" wrote)
> I joined Weight Watchers, he's losing the weight :-( . Actually I've lost
> 17 lbs and the sole reason was the trip to Australia. I figure every
> pound I lose is a pound of stuff I can buy as we are flying around the
> outback for two weeks!!


My Margene joined Weight Watchers a couple of years ago with her sister. I
lost much weight doing it with her - if you will.

The secret is in the charting. Any "diet" - it's the charting. When we
charted, morning-noon-night, we lost weight.

When we got complacent because 'we know what we're doing' ...and simply
"watched" what we ate, without religiously charting each bite - no success.


Montblack
Hmm ....the Aussie Vacation Diet.

[Ron Natalie]

Montblack wrote:

>
> The secret is in the charting. Any "diet" - it's the charting. When we
> charted, morning-noon-night, we lost weight.

I don't chart anything. I do keep track of the WW Points of what I eat
and eat accordingly.

[Margy]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Montblack wrote:
>
>>
>> The secret is in the charting. Any "diet" - it's the charting. When we
>> charted, morning-noon-night, we lost weight.
>
>
> I don't chart anything. I do keep track of the WW Points of what I eat
> and eat accordingly.
Ron doesn't chart, but he never uses the "flex points" and he runs. So
it works out fairly well. If I chart everything I do slightly better
than if I don't, but I'm like Ron. I keep track of all my points and
rarely if ever go over into the spares.

Margy (looking forward to seeing less of everyone at OSH sounds like
everyone is losing weight! Of course we are on a 3.5 week vacation
right before OSH, so ...)