Pre-buy after Annual

[Douglas Olson]

Newcomer to group and ownership here. Hope this isn't an FAQ, but Googling
the keywords brings up too many hits that don't address my question.

I'm looking at a fairly typical first plane to buy ... 1960s Cherokee ...
that appears to be just right. It has reasonable airframe time and low
engine time. It was annualled two months ago.

My specific question is ... Since the plane was just annualled, what should
I look for in my (free, amatuer) pre-buy and ask the mechanic too look for
in the professional inspection, that would indicate a "don't buy" decision,
even if the annual is fresh.

I'm thinking about things like interior wing corrosion that are airworthy
this year and probably next, but would make the plane a poor long-term
investment.

Is this the right question to ask? Experienced, non-monetarily motivated
answers appreciated.

[Dan Thompson]

That is the right question to ask. What you are looking for are
deal-breakers, not routine maintenance items that have popped up in the two
months since the annual.

Corrosion, un-logged damage history, weak cylinders, cracked engine case,
inop accessories, nonconformance with the type certificate, missing logs,
are the types of deal-breakers that should be looked for in a pre-buy.


"Douglas Olson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Newcomer to group and ownership here. Hope this isn't an FAQ, but
> Googling
> the keywords brings up too many hits that don't address my question.
>
> I'm looking at a fairly typical first plane to buy ... 1960s Cherokee ...
> that appears to be just right. It has reasonable airframe time and low
> engine time. It was annualled two months ago.
>
> My specific question is ... Since the plane was just annualled, what
> should
> I look for in my (free, amatuer) pre-buy and ask the mechanic too look for
> in the professional inspection, that would indicate a "don't buy"
> decision,
> even if the annual is fresh.
>
> I'm thinking about things like interior wing corrosion that are airworthy
> this year and probably next, but would make the plane a poor long-term
> investment.
>
> Is this the right question to ask? Experienced, non-monetarily motivated
> answers appreciated.
>
>
>

[dave]

Doug,
Be careful about the overhaul. Low time is not always good. I looked
at one airplane that had only 600SMOH but the overhaul had been done 25
years earlier. Not only is that bad in terms of low annual usuage, it's
also way beyond Lycoming's recommendation of 12 years between overhauls.
Most sellers and brokers I spoke to refused to consider anything but
engine hours in terms of valuing the engine but calender time is
significant. There are many aircraft for sale that are within the
manufacturer's recommendations regarding hours but way beyond the 12
year recommendation. Have an experienced mechanic check the engine
thoroughly. Get an oil sample to a lab and the screen and/or filter
inspected. If possible, try to make sure the engine has at least 10 or
20 hours since the last oil change.

Dave
68 7ECA

Douglas Olson wrote:
> Newcomer to group and ownership here. Hope this isn't an FAQ, but Googling
> the keywords brings up too many hits that don't address my question.
>
> I'm looking at a fairly typical first plane to buy ... 1960s Cherokee ...
> that appears to be just right. It has reasonable airframe time and low
> engine time. It was annualled two months ago.
>
> My specific question is ... Since the plane was just annualled, what should
> I look for in my (free, amatuer) pre-buy and ask the mechanic too look for
> in the professional inspection, that would indicate a "don't buy" decision,
> even if the annual is fresh.
>
> I'm thinking about things like interior wing corrosion that are airworthy
> this year and probably next, but would make the plane a poor long-term
> investment.
>
> Is this the right question to ask? Experienced, non-monetarily motivated
> answers appreciated.
>
>
>

[Doug]

Your mechanic should give it a compression test, look for AD's, cut the
oil filter, sample the oil, look for corrosion. You should be able to
check the paint, upholstry, cleanliness, avionics and flight
characteristics.

As for old engines, even with low engine time, don't expect an old
engine (over 12 years) to make it to TBO. Frequently flown is MUCH
better. Frequently flown engines make it PAST TBO (frequent being over
100 hours a year, spread out through out the year).

[Mike Rapoport]

Well, you could do anything from nothing to another annual. How well do you
trust the shop that did the annual? If the plane is for sale now then you
can be almost certain that the minimal amount of work was done at the
annual. As always you have to weigh the amount to spend on the inspection
against what will be found that the seller will be willing to repair.

Mike
MU-2

"Douglas Olson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Newcomer to group and ownership here. Hope this isn't an FAQ, but
> Googling
> the keywords brings up too many hits that don't address my question.
>
> I'm looking at a fairly typical first plane to buy ... 1960s Cherokee ...
> that appears to be just right. It has reasonable airframe time and low
> engine time. It was annualled two months ago.
>
> My specific question is ... Since the plane was just annualled, what
> should
> I look for in my (free, amatuer) pre-buy and ask the mechanic too look for
> in the professional inspection, that would indicate a "don't buy"
> decision,
> even if the annual is fresh.
>
> I'm thinking about things like interior wing corrosion that are airworthy
> this year and probably next, but would make the plane a poor long-term
> investment.
>
> Is this the right question to ask? Experienced, non-monetarily motivated
> answers appreciated.
>
>
>

[Juan Jimenez]

I disagree with what has been said here, except Mike. The pre-buy should be
another annual inspection, with great emphasis on known problems with the
model of aircraft you want to buy. If it was annualled two months ago with
the intention to buy, _assume_ that corners were cut. Remember, you _will_
be stuck with whatever you don't find in the pre-buy.

"Douglas Olson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Newcomer to group and ownership here. Hope this isn't an FAQ, but
> Googling
> the keywords brings up too many hits that don't address my question.
>
> I'm looking at a fairly typical first plane to buy ... 1960s Cherokee ...
> that appears to be just right. It has reasonable airframe time and low
> engine time. It was annualled two months ago.
>
> My specific question is ... Since the plane was just annualled, what
> should
> I look for in my (free, amatuer) pre-buy and ask the mechanic too look for
> in the professional inspection, that would indicate a "don't buy"
> decision,
> even if the annual is fresh.
>
> I'm thinking about things like interior wing corrosion that are airworthy
> this year and probably next, but would make the plane a poor long-term
> investment.
>
> Is this the right question to ask? Experienced, non-monetarily motivated
> answers appreciated.
>
>
>

[Jack Allison]

Hi Doug. Great question. I'm a new owner and went through a similar
experience. We bought an Arrow that had literally come out of annual a
couple of days before we showed up to take a look (and hopefully close
the deal and fly home...which we wound up doing). I poked around for
info. on the shop that had been doing the maintenance and received
positive reports (thanks again Blanche). We also asked tons of
questions to the owner and to the A&P that had been maintaining the
plane. We went through AOPA for the title search and copies of past
paperwork. Everything looked fine so we put down a deposit and headed
to Denver. I spend a couple hours with the A&P reviewing the logs and
asking more questions. I also had a chance to fly the plane as well.
Reviewing the logs, we just kept finding more information that the plane
had been well maintained. The A&P let me do whatever I wanted in terms
of poking around the plane.

The next day, one partner along with an instructor showed up. They had
a look at the plane and we closed the deal then flew home. So, our
pre-buy inspection was very limited. We could have (and many would say
"should have") had a different shop do some form of pre-buy inspection.
Given how the entire deal was progressing and our overall timeframe,
we opted not to take the plane to another shop. A definite risk but one
that we were comfortable with given all of the information we had.

Specifically on your situation, check into whether or not Piper service
bulletin 1006 has been performed. This is the one where they pull the
tanks and check for corrosion on the wing spar caps. Many Piper owners
advised me this is a "must have". If it has not been performed, I feel
it is worth spending the money to do as part of a pre-buy inspection.

Good luck with the purchase process. Be prepared to walk away if
something doesn't feel right. We had to walk away from two deals before
we found our Arrow. Not fun, time consuming, etc...but worth it in the end.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[RST Engineering]

Quite a few mechanics and quite a few shops tend to shy away from the
"pre-buy" inspection for one main reason. There are a gazillion items that
can be inspected to a fare-thee-well and wind up being unairworthy next
week. Then you come back to me and ask me why I didn't find this glaring
problem on the pre-buy and expect me to fix it for free.

Example -- on July 20th last year I did an annual on a 182. I found a
couple of minor things wrong, fixed them, and signed off the annual. Two
weeks later that aircraft split a cylinder in two in flight and had to make
a forced landing in a cow pasture. Now the question becomes -- how could I
have detected this fault by inspection? Perhaps if I had removed all the
cylinders and taken them down to be nondestructively tested (mag particle,
zyglo, etc.) we might have spotted that incipient crack. We might not have.
But that's not reality. Pulling the jugs on every annual (and removing the
wings to inspect for corrosion, taking out all the radios to run a bench
specifications test, and all that stuff) just isn't the real world.

I won't take a pre-buy job except for a good friend and even at that we have
to have the understanding that (s)he is going to be standing right at my
side during the entire process and watch everything that I look at. Six
months later when the veeblefeltzer snaps a rittit both (s)he and I looked
at the damned thing and agreed that it looked normal. That and I charge
double for a prebuy what I charge for an annual.


Jim



"> My specific question is ... Since the plane was just annualled, what
should
> I look for in my (free, amatuer) pre-buy and ask the mechanic too look for
> in the professional inspection, that would indicate a "don't buy"
> decision,
> even if the annual is fresh.

[Douglas Olson]

Well, thank you for a mechanic's perspective on this.

Seeing as every piece of "how to buy a used airplane" literature recommends
a mechanic's pre-buy, what do consider a real-world way for the amatuer to
avoid the big money pits like wing spar problems?


"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Quite a few mechanics and quite a few shops tend to shy away from the
> "pre-buy" inspection for one main reason. There are a gazillion items
that
> can be inspected to a fare-thee-well and wind up being unairworthy next
> week. Then you come back to me and ask me why I didn't find this glaring
> problem on the pre-buy and expect me to fix it for free.
>
> I won't take a pre-buy job except for a good friend and even at that we
have
> to have the understanding that (s)he is going to be standing right at my
> side during the entire process and watch everything that I look at. Six
> months later when the veeblefeltzer snaps a rittit both (s)he and I looked
> at the damned thing and agreed that it looked normal. That and I charge
> double for a prebuy what I charge for an annual.
>

[RST Engineering]

Wing spars are fairly accessable and moderately easy to inspect thoroughly.
It is the stuff that you can't get inside to see without ripping the
airplane completely apart that generally rise up and bite you. How do you
detect that an oil pump gear has a hairline fracture and is about to
self-destruct without pulling the back end of the engine apart? How do you
tell that a bladder cell is about to start leaking from an invisible
internal split in the cell wall? The stuff you can see is generally not the
problem ... but in the case of an invisible crack in a cylinder wall it was.

The answer is that there is no good answer except for a record of preventive
maintenance.

Jim


"Douglas Olson" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Well, thank you for a mechanic's perspective on this.
>
> Seeing as every piece of "how to buy a used airplane" literature
> recommends
> a mechanic's pre-buy, what do consider a real-world way for the amatuer to
> avoid the big money pits like wing spar problems?

[Blanche Cohen]

Go to the FAA website and get the list of all the applicable ADs. If
you're going to be an owner, you may as well learn to read ADs. Then
you can review the log books for compliance with the ADs.

Get an A&P (or A&P/IA) that has not worked on the aircraft to do
the pre-buy.

Decide what will be 1) a deal breaker 2) negotiable.

When I bought my cherokee I found an AD that hadn't been complied
with (the previous owner was an A&P, too!). So the cost of complying
was part of the purchase price.

Have fuN!

[Steve Foley]

Jim,

Is there an easier way to check a Cherokee wing spar than pulling the tanks?

I mine inspected (SB-1006?) when I bought my PA28-140 in 2000. Did it again
last year when my tanks were sent to New Hampshire for overhaul.

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Wing spars are fairly accessable and moderately easy to inspect
thoroughly.

[[email protected]]

Jack Allison wrote:
>
> Specifically on your situation, check into whether or not Piper
service
> bulletin 1006 has been performed. This is the one where they pull
the
> tanks and check for corrosion on the wing spar caps. Many Piper
owners
> advised me this is a "must have". If it has not been performed, I
feel
> it is worth spending the money to do as part of a pre-buy inspection.
>

I'll second Jack's advice on this one. The only way to detect
corrosion in that area is to perform SB #1006. That area is not
normally inspected as part of an annual inspection. If it hasn't been
performed, the long term condition of the plane is a question mark. It
could be fine (as in most cases), or it could have some intergranular
corrosion of the spar which will render your wings basically useless.

Inspecting for corrosion is key to the long term investment prospects
of an airplane. On a Cherokee group that I frequent, one owner is
currently disassembling his recently bought plane and selling the
pieces. His first annual uncovered massive corrosion under the front
floorboards that would not have been economically feasable to repair.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

On 23-May-2005, " > wrote:

> I'll second Jack's advice on this one. The only way to detect
> corrosion in that area is to perform SB #1006. That area is not
> normally inspected as part of an annual inspection. If it hasn't been
> performed, the long term condition of the plane is a question mark. It
> could be fine (as in most cases), or it could have some intergranular
> corrosion of the spar which will render your wings basically useless.


Yes indeed, SB 1006 is a "must do" as far as I'm concerned. If I was
considering purchase of an older PA-28 I would check the logs to verify
compliance. If it hadn't yet been done, I would make successful compliance
part of any purchase agreement. An A&P familiar with the SB, and that
should be any A&P familiar with PA-28s, should be able to pull off the
inspection in a few hours. Most of the work entails removal and replacement
of the many screws holding the tanks in place, and that part can be done by
anybody.

BTW, when SB 106 is done the fuel lines behind the tanks should be routinely
replaced, as should the fuel gauge senders if they are giving any problems.
None of that is mentioned in the SB, but if the lines are more than 10 years
old it would be dumb not to take advantage of having the tanks off as an
opportunity to replace them. The lines themselves don't cost that much.

How to deal with the inspection as part of a purchase deal? As a buyer, I
would offer this: If the inspection shows either no corrosion or minor,
easily corrected corrosion, I buy the plane at the agreed price and pay for
the inspection (and fuel line replacements). If major corrosion is found
(requiring more than, say, $200 to correct) then the deal is off and I owe
nothing.

--
-Elliott Drucker