engine shop pireps wanted

[Stephen N Mills]

Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)

The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
Aug 2001

Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
lightweight starter.

Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
new partner, we expect to increase that.

Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.

Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
(OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
are found when they open it up.

Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.

Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
gratefully received.


N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode

[A Lieberman]

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:52:54 -0400, Stephen N Mills wrote:


>
> Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
> non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
> think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
> current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.

I used Airmark Engines, and as far as I can tell, they did an outstanding
job on the overhaul of my AK4 360 Lycoming engine.

The only thing I have done since overhaul is oil changes.

For me, I'd go the whole shabang from my positive experiences. If you
already trust your A$P, why would you want a second opinion?

After the overhaul, at least you know who has been "behind" the engine, and
you can break it in the way you want to. Also, for me, the overhaul price
was pretty much a "fixed price". I paid 13,100 for the overhaul. I had my
annual done at the same time, and the total came to 15K.

It took 5 weeks from teardown to wheels leaving the ground for me.

I was told, other then getting a 0 time engine log book for a factory
remand engine, overhaul is the way to go.

Allen

[Jay Honeck]

> The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
> Aug 2001

Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally
considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what the
heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per month of
usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.

Who overhauled it *last* time?

Personally, with such low time on everything else (assuming all new
cylinders, etc., in 2001), I'd have my A&P put in a new camshaft and fly it
another 1000 hours or so.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave S]

A Lieberman wrote:

>
> For me, I'd go the whole shabang from my positive experiences. If you
> already trust your A$P, why would you want a second opinion?

Because it's a good practice. Ever hear of "Trust, but verify"?

Dave

[Jon Kraus]

Ronald Reagan said that about the Russian's right?

Anyway if it were my engine I'd probably jsut put a new cam in it and
fly it for 5 more years or so. Just me .02 YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201


>
>
> Because it's a good practice. Ever hear of "Trust, but verify"?
>
> Dave
>

[George Patterson]

Stephen N Mills wrote:
>
> Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
> (OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
> all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul.

I would pay attention to them. I think your A&P is going a bit overboard.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Doug]

What is the condition of the rest of the engine? What are the
compressions? (Consider giving it an automotive style compression test
also, those sometimes reveal things a static one won't). End play on
the crank? Oil usage? Oil seepage out the ends of the engine? Does the
cockpit smell oily when the heater is on? Scope the cylinders. Valve
wear?

No one really KNOWS what the future of your engine may be. It is a pity
the previous rebuild did this. Perhaps they did not replace the cam?
What else didn't they replace? (the bearings?). If all they did was
top it, you did ok. But if all they did was top it, perhaps you should
go for a full rebuild now. The bottom line is: HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU
HAVE? Do the best you can afford.

[[email protected]]

On 5-Jun-2005, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally
>
> considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what
> the heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per
> month of
> usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
> have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.
>
> Who overhauled it *last* time?
>
> Personally, with such low time on everything else (assuming all new
> cylinders, etc., in 2001), I'd have my A&P put in a new camshaft and fly
> it another 1000 hours or so.


I agree with Jay. The IO-360 in our Arrow went to around 2100 hours without
any signifiant repairs. Even then, we put in a new (factory rebuilt) engine
more on general principles than any indication of a problem. The last oil
analysis on the old engine was completely benign. What's more, we didn't
even use multi-vis anti-scuff oil or additives -- just plain old Aeroshell
SAE 50. During the life of the engine the plane flew an average of only
about 175 hours/year.

If your cam went bad that soon after overhaul, I'm wondering if it was
replaced, or at least refurbished, at that time. Remember, to be acceptable
for use in an overhaul a part needs to meet only "service limits". An owner
can demand better, but the cost of the overhaul rises accordingly.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Denny]

Steve, the reality is that the inactive partner will refuse to spring
the extra bucks for a reman engine... So, you and active partner will
have to pay the difference... Based on your posting I suspect that is
not in the works... You will, in the end, decide on replacing the cam
and lifters and taking a chance on the engine making TBO.... No FBO
would OH at 750 hours - he would IRAN and put it back in service...

So, quit gnashing teeth - consider you and active partner pulling the
engine in the hangar, boxing it, and shipping to the engine shop for
IRAN... On return you two move the plane to the A&P shop, help him
with the install and get his sign off on the logs... Easy money for
him, less expense for you, and both of you get some great experience...
win-win...

denny

[Rich]

OK,
Here's another point to consider.
About 4 years ago I had a couple of bad cylinders on a Continental
IO520. All in all I decided to "fix it up and get a couple of more
years out of it". Good economy, right?

Turned out that the cost of overhauls for that engine have climbed
$8,600 since that time! (Using a Superior quote as a benchmark...
$18,900 up to $27,500).

Getting "a few more years out of it" turned out to be VERY false economy.

All other factors aside, give some consideration to the economy of
overhauling it NOW to avoid price increases. The costs of metals and
metal parts have been rising astronomically in recent years!

Rich


Doug wrote:

>
> No one really KNOWS what the future of your engine may be. It is a pity
> the previous rebuild did this. Perhaps they did not replace the cam?
> What else didn't they replace? (the bearings?). If all they did was
> top it, you did ok. But if all they did was top it, perhaps you should
> go for a full rebuild now. The bottom line is: HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU
> HAVE? Do the best you can afford.
>

[Dave Butler]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
>>Aug 2001
>
>
> Am I the only one here that finds that appalling? An IO-360 is generally
> considered to be one of the most bullet-proof engines ever built -- what the
> heck caused the cam to spall so quickly? With over 15 hours per month of
> usage, it's not like the engine sat unused for very long -- so you should
> have had plenty of lubrication on those lobes.
>
> Who overhauled it *last* time?

I think that's probably not a relevant question. Chances are the can was not
replaced. It was inspected and found to be in tolerance. Most owners with an
in-tolerance cam will elect not to replace it.

[Dave Butler]

Stephen N Mills wrote:
> Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
> engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
> gratefully received.

If you're just replacing the cam, you don't need an overhaul shop.

Either way, replacing the cam or the complete overhaul, I'd go with a local shop
rather than shipping parts all over the country. Just imagine what happens when
everything doesn't quite come together right afterward, and you are pursuing
warrantee fulfillment with a shop several states away. Even if the shop is
desirous of helping, the distance makes it a hassle. There's got to be someplace
in Atlanta or nearby that can do the work.

[Dave Butler]

wrote:

>
> If your cam went bad that soon after overhaul, I'm wondering if it was
> replaced, or at least refurbished, at that time. Remember, to be acceptable
> for use in an overhaul a part needs to meet only "service limits". An owner
> can demand better, but the cost of the overhaul rises accordingly.

Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
cam replacement and you'll see why.

[[email protected]]

Dave Butler wrote:
>
> Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
> cam replacement and you'll see why.

It depends on who's quoting. I don't think Lyc. reuses cams on their
overhauls. I just had a Superior Millenium overhaul done on my O-360
and the price included a new cam. Their take was that the overhaul is
being done to new specs and a reground cam will not meet new specs.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Honeck]

> > Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
> > engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
> > gratefully received.
>
> If you're just replacing the cam, you don't need an overhaul shop.
>
> Either way, replacing the cam or the complete overhaul, I'd go with a local shop
> rather than shipping parts all over the country.

That's a great point.

We have been very happy with our decision to use our local shop to
rebuild our O-540 in 2002. Although you still end up shipping *some*
parts all over the place, and (of course) the new engine parts come
from the factory. (In our case, Superior, which has allowed us to
dodge ALL of the Lycoming O-540 ADs thus far...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Butler]

wrote:
>
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>Cams are not usually replaced at overhaul. Price an overhaul with and without
>>cam replacement and you'll see why.
>
>
> It depends on who's quoting. I don't think Lyc. reuses cams on their
> overhauls. I just had a Superior Millenium overhaul done on my O-360
> and the price included a new cam. Their take was that the overhaul is
> being done to new specs and a reground cam will not meet new specs.

A quick search didn't find any statement from Lycoming itself, but this article

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/tripacer/tripacer9808.htm

says:
"Lycoming offers both factory remanufactured and overhauled engines.
Remanufactured engines have essentially all-new parts but may use some major
overhauled components such as cases, crankshaft, and accessory gears. Lycoming
builds remans with new cylinders, pistons, camshafts, and ancillaries like the
oil pump. With the Lycoming overhaul, you may end up with more used, overhauled
parts..."

[xyzzy]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
>>>Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
>>>engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
>>>gratefully received.
>>
>>If you're just replacing the cam, you don't need an overhaul shop.
>>
>>Either way, replacing the cam or the complete overhaul, I'd go with a local shop
>>rather than shipping parts all over the country.
>
>
> That's a great point.
>
> We have been very happy with our decision to use our local shop to
> rebuild our O-540 in 2002. Although you still end up shipping *some*
> parts all over the place, and (of course) the new engine parts come
> from the factory. (In our case, Superior, which has allowed us to
> dodge ALL of the Lycoming O-540 ADs thus far...)

On the other hand, if you are planning to sell before your next TBO, you
might consider a nationally known shop. In general, I think buyers
prefer an engine by a nationally known shop instead of a local guy they
know nothing about (assuming you want to be able to sell to non-local
buyers). I know when I have looked at engine logbooks, an overhaul by a
small shop that I can't find information on by googling is a turnoff.

[[email protected]]

Seems to me that for this decision you need to understand what the
other parts
are like. What kind of OH was it? New cylinders?

A wise mechanic who OH one of my engines always put in new camshafts.
His
theory: You hang the camshaft on a string and build the engine around
it. A re-ground
one might not make it thru the second OH.

So was this last OH to service limits? If so, it's talking to you. If
it was a decent OH,
you might be tempted to repair it.

Bill Hale

[DL]

"Stephen N Mills" > wrote in message
...
> Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
> report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
> particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
> later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
> wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)
>
> The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
> Aug 2001
>
> Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
> 'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
> JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
> will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
> lightweight starter.
>
> Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
> has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
> new partner, we expect to increase that.
>
> Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
> a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
> engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
> inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
> get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
> long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.
>
> Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
> (OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
> all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
> seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
> shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
> to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
> are found when they open it up.
>
> Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
> non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
> think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
> current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.
>
> Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
> engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
> gratefully received.
>
>
> N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
> Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode
>

[DL]

"DL" > wrote in message news:...
>
> "Stephen N Mills" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
>> report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
>> particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
>> later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
>> wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)
>>
>> The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
>> Aug 2001
>>
>> Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
>> 'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
>> JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
>> will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
>> lightweight starter.
>>
>> Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
>> has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
>> new partner, we expect to increase that.
>>
>> Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
>> a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
>> engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
>> inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
>> get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
>> long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.
>>
>> Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
>> (OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
>> all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
>> seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
>> shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
>> to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
>> are found when they open it up.
>>
>> Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
>> non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
>> think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
>> current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.
>>
>> Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
>> engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
>> gratefully received.
>>
>>
>> N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
>> Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode
>>
>
>

[DL]

(Sorry for previous blank posts. Too fast of a finger.)

Wrt America's Aircraft Engines - I got a Continental engine from them 3
years ago and I can't say enough nice about them. Quality of workmanship
seemed very high and break-in was wonderful. After almost 3 years there was
a starter drive problem - in my opinion most likely caused by a lightweight
starter that, by design, would not freewheel, which it apparently needed to
do with that style of Continental starter drive. (Certainly not an issue
with your Lycoming.) In discussing the drive problem with America's
Aircraft Engines they simply said "send it back and we'll fix it" which they
did - same day they got it - and at no charge. This was without any
question of exactly when they'd overhauled my engine, how many hours, none
of that at all. THAT is customer service in my book, for a problem that
they, most likely, could have easily and reasonably pointed the finger
elsewhere on.

If they're still there the next time I get an engine, I doubt I'll even get
other bids. I'd be inclined to take their advice on your Lycoming.

DL

"DL" > wrote in message news:...
>
> "DL" > wrote in message news:...
>>
>> "Stephen N Mills" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Vicky, our '75 Cardinal RG, is sick. We changed the oil and got a
>>> report of iron in the oil analysis (from Blackstone) and iron
>>> particles in the filter (from Second OilPinion). Hmmm... 26 tach hours
>>> later, same thing. Pulled a cylinder: yep, cam spalling. (Assume
>>> wailing, rending of garments, gnashing of teeth here)
>>>
>>> The engine is a Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D, 750 hours since first major in
>>> Aug 2001
>>>
>>> Other factors: 9000 hours on the airframe. Fresh paint, poor (not
>>> 'bad') interior. Decent IFR avionics: GX60, KX155 w/ GS, GTX327,
>>> JPI-700, no autopilot. 750 (+?) hours on the dry vacuum pump; this
>>> will be replaced at this time. Also will be replacing with the
>>> lightweight starter.
>>>
>>> Human factors: myself and two partners; one of whom is inactive and
>>> has been looking to sell out. We fly about 200 hours a year. With a
>>> new partner, we expect to increase that.
>>>
>>> Options: Our A&P is leaning towards a major overhaul rather than just
>>> a cam replacement. I am concerned about possible other damage to the
>>> engine from those iron particles riding around in the oil. But our
>>> inactive partner (I haven't talked to him yet) will probably want to
>>> get out for minimum bucks. Active partner and I are looking at
>>> long-term value. We plan on owning this plane for a long time.
>>>
>>> Costs: Our A&P has recommended three engine shops: America's Aircraft
>>> (OK), Airmark Engines (FL), and Graham Engines (GA). I have talked to
>>> all three. Each advised cam replacement, not major overhaul. The price
>>> seems to be about $2000 for our A&P to r&r the engine, ?? for
>>> shipping, and $5000 to $6000 to the engine shop. Time frame of about 3
>>> to 4 weeks at the shop. All of this assumes no additional problems
>>> are found when they open it up.
>>>
>>> Wither? While active partner and I would love to get a factory reman'd
>>> non-D engine, that does not seem reasonable. And we don't even want to
>>> think about the cost of that. And even doing a major would move our
>>> current bill from about $8000 to $17000 or more.
>>>
>>> Advice? Any advice about the path to take, and any pireps on the three
>>> engine shops mentioned (or any others) will be most humbly and
>>> gratefully received.
>>>
>>>
>>> N2679V, 'Vicky' '75 RG @ PDK, Atlanta
>>> Steve Mills, in major bummed-out mode
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> On the other hand, if you are planning to sell before your next TBO, you
> might consider a nationally known shop. In general, I think buyers prefer
> an engine by a nationally known shop instead of a local guy they know
> nothing about (assuming you want to be able to sell to non-local buyers).
> I know when I have looked at engine logbooks, an overhaul by a small shop
> that I can't find information on by googling is a turnoff.

Good, valid points.

On the OTHER other hand, most really good planes sell locally without
advertising.

And, of course, assuming you're planning to keep your plane, it doesn't
matter at all.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"