Bad place to stall

[Stubby]

Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

[Jack Davis]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:03:01 -0400, Stubby
> wrote:

>Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
>ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
>plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

Yup.

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[john smith]

Stubby wrote:
> Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
> ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
> plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

Find a V-g diagram for the airplane and you will see where the airspeed
and g-loading intersect.

[Tony]

pull back hard, kick in some rudder and you'll get a neat snap roll.

[Bob Gardner]

Once upon a time there was a geology instructor at Western Washington
University who was also an aerobatic pilot. He got hooked up with someone
over in the Middle East (king of Jordan?) and went there to teach him
aerobatics...the Arab was already jet-qualified. He did exactly what you
describe, only on television news. Hard way to watch someone die.

Bob Gardner

"Stubby" > wrote in message
...
> Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
> ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
> plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

[Dudley Henriques]

"Stubby" > wrote in message
...
> Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
> ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
> plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

Yes indeed. Low altitude vertical recoveries and the safety issues
associated with them as they relate to the air show demonstration
environment happen to be a specialty of mine. There is an feature article
dealing with what I have to say on exactly this issue in the Feb 2004 issue
of Aeroplane Monthly; "Precision Decision" by Gen Des Barker of the South
African Air Force. You can either obtain a back issue from the publisher or
if you email me back channel, I'll be happy to send a copy of the article to
you on a pdf file. The article deals almost directly with your question as
that relates to flying the P51 Mustang, although it covers a great deal
more.
Dudley Henriques

[Happy Dog]

"Stubby" > wrote in message
...
> Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
> ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
> plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

By "level" I assume you mean no longer losing altitude. There are lots of
videos on the web of people mushing into the ground at the bottom of a loop.
The nose is often pointed up ( a bit). But they're well stalled and still
descending. You can stall at any speed. (Up until the point where you tear
the wings off.)

moo

[Dave S]

Yes.

Stubby wrote:
> Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
> ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
> plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

[Stubby]

Happy Dog wrote:

> "Stubby" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
>>ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
>>plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?
>
>
> By "level" I assume you mean no longer losing altitude. There are lots of
> videos on the web of people mushing into the ground at the bottom of a loop.
> The nose is often pointed up ( a bit). But they're well stalled and still
> descending. You can stall at any speed. (Up until the point where you tear
> the wings off.)

Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to know. Many pilots tell me
things like, "You can't stall when you're going fast." They're wrong!

[Ron Natalie]

Stubby wrote:

> Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to know. Many pilots tell me
> things like, "You can't stall when you're going fast." They're wrong!

Speed has nothing whatsoever to do with stalling. What makes you stall
below the stall speed is that you are continuing to increase the AOA
trying to maintain level flight.

[john smith]

>>Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
>>ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
>>plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

Think of it this way, the pilot flew into the ground because he/she
failed to properly deduce the correct altitude to fly the maneuver based
on the then current conditions (density altitude, aircraft condition,
pilot condition, terrain, etc.)
Many times an underlying cause is pilot ego.
Showing off on the spur of the moment to impress others without
considering all the above factors.

[RST Engineering]

The last words of many a redneck pilot are "Hey, y'all, watch THIS."

Jim


> Showing off on the spur of the moment to impress others without
> considering all the above factors.

[Bob Gardner]

He flew right into the ground. I can only assume that he was applying back
stick pressure. It's been a long time since I saw the video on the news.

Bob Gardner

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>
>>Once upon a time there was a geology instructor at Western Washington
>>University who was also an aerobatic pilot. He got hooked up with someone
>>over in the Middle East (king of Jordan?) and went there to teach him
>>aerobatics...the Arab was already jet-qualified. He did exactly what you
>>describe, only on television news. Hard way to watch someone die.
>
> Bob,
>
> Can you describe the accident for me a bit? Did the
> aircraft head to the ground, break up or roll?
>
> In the last quarter of the loop you'd be at nearly maximum
> speed. Stalling requires that you bring the aircraft to its
> maximum lift coefficient and doing that at high speed means
> the pilot will be experiencing a very high G-load.
> Depending on the aircraft and the loop exit speed, this
> might be enough to produce structural failure.
>
> Assuming it does not fail structurally, I would next expect
> behavior somewhat similar to a straight ahead level stall,
> except that the nose of the aircraft (and path of the
> aircraft) is pitched down prior to finishing the loop. If
> the stall progresses smoothly outward from the root to the
> tips, the wings may stay reasonably level (relative to the
> flight path), but lift would decrease delaying/stopping the
> final portion of the loop. You'd find yourself headed
> towards the ground at high speed unable to pull out.
>
> Other aircraft may not stall smoothly and symmetrically and
> could snap roll in this configuration.
>
> High speed stalls are pretty rough on the airframe (and
> pilot). They are an area that's extremely hard to explore
> safely.
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
> return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

[Robert M. Gary]

Yea, but who cares. Stalls are nothing once you've done aerobatics.

[tom pettit]

Nah, it's more like this, "Here, hold my beer, and watch this!"

tom

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> The last words of many a redneck pilot are "Hey, y'all, watch THIS."
>
> Jim

[Jay Beckman]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> The last words of many a redneck pilot are "Hey, y'all, watch THIS."
>
> Jim

Usually followed by the need to go one up which is preceeded by:

"Hell, that ain't nuthin'..."

Jay B

[John Galban]

Tony wrote:
> pull back hard, kick in some rudder and you'll get a neat snap roll.

Right into the ground!

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dave Stadt]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> Tony wrote:
> > pull back hard, kick in some rudder and you'll get a neat snap roll.
>
> Right into the ground!
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

If your gonna go, go with a bang!

[[email protected]]

Stubby wrote:
> Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
> ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
> plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?

One can most easily burble the wings across the top of a loop by
holding a touch too much pressure... it happens all the time. What
takes real skill is stalling it over and over and over again all the
way around. :-)

My Decathlon-calibrated arm automatically pulls the right amount of
pressure to loop the airplane. When it encountered a loop in an Extra
300 for the first time, it was still giving Decathlon-scale tugs to an
airplane that really didn't want or need all that much help. I must
have stalled it about 8 or 10 times going around that first loop. I
was working and sweating and grunting and wondering what in the
slam-hell was going on while the GIB was laughing at me so hard he
almost cried.

She stalled going straight up and going straight down, going fast and
going slowly, and every possible combination thereof.

The only saving grace to such a miserable performance? If I could just
repeat it exactly a few more times, I can name it!

-Dave Russell
N2S-3

[Happy Dog]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in

> In the last quarter of the loop you'd be at nearly maximum
> speed.

Not necessarily. Or even usually. The exit speed depends on the speed at
the top and the tighness of the pullout.

> Other aircraft may not stall smoothly and symmetrically and
> could snap roll in this configuration.
>
> High speed stalls are pretty rough on the airframe (and
> pilot). They are an area that's extremely hard to explore
> safely.

Who said this? Below Va there perfectly safe. Power-on makes them pretty
hairy though.

moo

[Centurion]

Stubby wrote:

> Happy Dog wrote:
>
>> "Stubby" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Suppose you are in the final quarter of a loop maneuver, looking at the
>>>ground. Your speed is high and you are pulling back hard to bring the
>>>plane back to level. Can that result in a stall?
>>
>>
>> By "level" I assume you mean no longer losing altitude. There are lots
>> of videos on the web of people mushing into the ground at the bottom of a
>> loop.
>> The nose is often pointed up ( a bit). But they're well stalled and
>> still
>> descending. You can stall at any speed. (Up until the point where you
>> tear the wings off.)
>
> Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to know. Many pilots tell me
> things like, "You can't stall when you're going fast." They're wrong!

And here's one the really cook your noodle: at zero-G a wing wont stall.
Think about it.

James
--
<donnerjack> Nothing says "I enjoy living with you" like the gift of
3rd degree burns...
<Mephron> except, of course, turning his bed into a trebuchet.
<Ladegard> That much effort must mean some sort of affection.

[Klein]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:08:05 -0400, T o d d P a t t i s t
> wrote:

>"Happy Dog" > wrote:
>
>>> In the last quarter of the loop you'd be at nearly maximum
>>> speed.
>>
>>Not necessarily. Or even usually. The exit speed depends on the speed at
>>the top and the tighness of the pullout.
>
>I agree that exit speed can be controlled, but if I'm trying
>to make it round, and I usually am, the last quarter is the
>highest speed part of the loop.

If you are trying to make a round loop, the last quarter of the loop
should look just like the first quarter. The entry speed, altitude
and the initial g pull should be the same as the exit speed, altitude
and g pull. That said, when coming around the back side, the ground
rushing up at you does tend to make you pull harder than necessary,
causing stalls to occur. Of course, this also makes a lousy looking
loop. If you are also low, you may also smack the ground.

>>> High speed stalls are pretty rough on the airframe (and
>>> pilot). They are an area that's extremely hard to explore
>>> safely.
>>
>>Who said this?
>
>I did :-)

If you are in an Extra, there's not much to worry about. You probably
can't stand what it can stand.

Klein

[Happy Dog]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Happy Dog" > wrote:
>
>>> In the last quarter of the loop you'd be at nearly maximum
>>> speed.
>>
>>Not necessarily. Or even usually. The exit speed depends on the speed at
>>the top and the tighness of the pullout.
>
> I agree that exit speed can be controlled, but if I'm trying
> to make it round, and I usually am, the last quarter is the
> highest speed part of the loop.
>
>>> High speed stalls are pretty rough on the airframe (and
>>> pilot). They are an area that's extremely hard to explore
>>> safely.
>>
>>Who said this?
>
> I did :-)
>
>>Below Va there perfectly safe.
>
> I'd dispute "perfectly safe" and make it "theoretically
> perfectly safe when done correctly in calm conditions."
> It's the difference between theory and the real world with
> all of it's "gotcha's".
>
> Va is no guarantee of no damage if the pilot uses unusual
> control inputs (double pump) or combines
> rudder/aileron/elevator inputs. It's no guarantee that
> there's no corrosion or fatigue cracks reducing your limits.
> It's no guarantee that you won't hit a gust putting you over
> Va just as you start your sudden control movement. Even if
> the aircraft is brand new, trying to practice stalls at
> maximum rated g-load is going to make it older faster than
> treating it more gently.
>
> As an aside, I'd certainly hope anyone trying high speed
> stalls would be below Va. Stalling at a speed above Va will
> exceed the maximum allowed load factor.
>
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
> return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

[Happy Dog]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in
>>Not necessarily. Or even usually. The exit speed depends on the speed at
>>the top and the tighness of the pullout.
>
> I agree that exit speed can be controlled, but if I'm trying
> to make it round, and I usually am, the last quarter is the
> highest speed part of the loop.

It should be close to the same speed as the first part of the loop.
>
>>> High speed stalls are pretty rough on the airframe (and
>>> pilot). They are an area that's extremely hard to explore
>>> safely.
>>
>>Who said this?
>
> I did :-)
>
>>Below Va they're perfectly safe.
>
> I'd dispute "perfectly safe" and make it "theoretically
> perfectly safe when done correctly in calm conditions."
> It's the difference between theory and the real world with
> all of it's "gotcha's".

Semantics are so unadorable.

moo