Questions from a Potential Owner

[G. Sylvester]

I've kept my eyes out for existing partnerships in a plane that
suits my needs but don't see any in my area (SQL, PAO, SJC, RHV).
So time for me to take the initiative and get on the horse to
start looking for a plane to buy. Most likely it will be myself,
a friend and some one or two else going in together. Finding
the airplane is probably going to be the easy thing...well sort
of. I'm more scared about learning about insurance, financing,
tie downs, registration, as well as a reputable A&P plus the
other million and a half thing. I'm sure it isn't that bad and
the pros sure outweight the negatives.

But, where do I start? Any books, online references?
It's probably a good idea that I get the financing squared
away before I find the plane. Are there any standard
financial instutions that give loans that are familiar
with airplanes? obviously I'm starting from square one but I'm
definitely enthusiastic about this and know it will be work.

If it matters, I haven't decided on a particular plane
but most likely something along the lines of a solid IFR-equipped,
older Arrow, Mooney or 182 with a G430/480/530.

thanks in advance.

Gerald Sylvester

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:51:41 GMT, "G. Sylvester" >
wrote:

>But, where do I start? Any books, online references?
>It's probably a good idea that I get the financing squared
>away before I find the plane. Are there any standard
>financial instutions that give loans that are familiar
>with airplanes? obviously I'm starting from square one but I'm
>definitely enthusiastic about this and know it will be work.

Lotsa books out there...

- "Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane" by James E. Ellis
- "How to Buy a Single-Engine Airplane (Illustrated Buyer's Guide), by Scott
Smith
- "The Illustrated Buyer's Guide to Used Airplanes" by Bill Clarke
- "Aircraft Partnership" by Geza Szurovy
- "Purchasing & Evaluating Airplanes" by Brian M. Jacobson
- "Airplane Ownership" by some guy with a weird name, like:

Ron Wanttaja

[Dave Butler]

G. Sylvester wrote:

> If it matters, I haven't decided on a particular plane
> but most likely something along the lines of a solid IFR-equipped,
> older Arrow, Mooney or 182 with a G430/480/530.

That's smart. Keeping your options open as to the specific model makes it easier
to shop. 'course I'm partial to the Mooneys.

Pay as much attention to your choice of partners as you do to the choice of
airplane. Having the right airplane and the wrong partners is no fun. The
question to ask yourself is whether you and your partners all have the same idea
about how the airplane is to be used, equipped and maintained. If you're a
frequent flyer and your partners are not, you might think that is ideal, but in
reality if they don't fly as often as you do they will not be as interested in
timely maintenance. Will they want to shop around for maintenance, whereas you
want it fixed *now*?

Dave

[Paul kgyy]

Check out aeroprice.com. They have software to help with the pricing.
Aviation Consumer also sells a 2 volume set of books that discusses
pros and cons of virtually every used variety on the market. There are
enough pitfalls in the purchase of used aircraft that it's worth
spending a a few dollars to get educated.

Make sure that you get a first-class pre-buy inspection.

Buy a plane with the avionics you want; much cheaper than installing it
new.

[Jay Honeck]

> But, where do I start? Any books, online references?
> It's probably a good idea that I get the financing squared
> away before I find the plane. Are there any standard
> financial instutions that give loans that are familiar
> with airplanes?

Gerald, call Mary Anderson at First National Bank of Oskaloosa, Iowa.
Her toll-free number is 888-559-8892.

Before you laugh, you need to know that airplane financing is a highly
specialized (and tiny) part of banking, and no one really cares *where*
the lending bank is physically located.

To illustrate this, even though Mary is located in Iowa I've never set
foot in her bank. Everything has been done via fax, email and
telephone for both of our aircraft loans.

(Although they always have a booth at Oshkosh -- so you can usually see
her there!)

The bank president is a Bonanza driver, and just about everyone else in
the bank is either a pilot or an aviation enthusiast. Mary will be
able to answer any questions you may have about financing, and probably
will tell you a few things you haven't even thought about yet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Robert M. Gary]

The hardest part is finding partners. Often times, when it comes time
to write the check, people start to back out. If you hvae commited
partners, you've got 95% of the work done. I have a Mooney partnership
and we break even about 1/2 the time using the following numbers...

$80/per hour wet variable
$200/month (total) fixed
plus insurance (your agent will help you break up the insurance based
on who would pay how much).
We've often had to each write $1,000 plus checks each to cover some
maintenance too that didn't get covered via the above (usually when we
have factory service center annuals)

The main problem I've found is that people often think they can join a
partnership to fly more cheaply. It almost never works out that way.
Expect to pay as much to fly as you do to rent. The reasons to buy a
numerous, but saving money isn't likely to work out. Once people see
that, you often see partners backing out.

-Robert

[Dave Butler]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

<snip>

> I have a Mooney partnership
> and we break even about 1/2 the time using the following numbers...
>
> $80/per hour wet variable
> $200/month (total) fixed
> plus insurance (your agent will help you break up the insurance based
> on who would pay how much).
> We've often had to each write $1,000 plus checks each to cover some
> maintenance too that didn't get covered via the above (usually when we
> have factory service center annuals)

<snip>

I'm guessing Robert must be paying for a hangar? We're tied down outside, and
in my Mooney 4-way partnership we pay $65/hr. dry plus $185/mo, includes
insurance. We have set the rates higher than the break-even rate in order to
accumulate some cash for paint/interior/panel. The paint and interior are done,
panel upgrade will happen right after OSH.

Dave

[Doug]

The biggest problem is maintenance. Find a bird that is equipped with
the equipment you will be happy with. Upgrading is expensive and you
won't get your money back when you sell. Corrosion is the main issue to
watch out for in an older plane. Make SURE you do at least one
(preferrably two) compression tests as that tells you the condition of
the engine. Hire a mechanic to do a compression test and research the
AD's and look for corrosion. You should be able to eyeball the paint,
upholstry, glass and avionics. Call an insurance broker and AVEMCO to
get two quotes on insurance. Ask around about hangars, they can be hard
to find, though most eventually find them. Costwise, an IFR 182 will
breakdown like this
Annual $1500
Hangar $varies
Insurance $varies but $1500 a year or so

Hourly
Fuel $40 (yikes its gone up)
Oil $2
Maintenance $varies but $15-25 or so
Engine, prop reserve $15 (you will get hit with this eventually)

Plane ownership is a hassle. Biggest problem is finding a good mechanic
that won't miss stuff but yet won't gouge you. The more involved you
are, the better it is, but different owners do it differently.
Everything from drop it off with the keys and pick it up without a
whimper to trying to do everything themselves has been tried. Most of
us do what we can (the little stuff) and bargain for a decent price
with the mechanic. If you find a good one, stick with him. Avionics and
gyros need frequent repair, it seems. GPS updates and IFR charts are a
hassle to keep current. Good luck!

[Robert M. Gary]

No, no hanger but we build the cost of the annual inspection (not the
repairs) in to the monthly fee. We also pay $700/yr in property taxes
that the $200/month contributes too.

[[email protected]]

On 27-Jun-2005, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> The reasons to buy a numerous, but saving money isn't likely to work out.
> Once people see
> that, you often see partners backing out.


A plane that is flown a total of about 150 hrs/year will probably have total
per hour operating costs about equal to hourly rental for a comparable plane
in the same geographical area. Very few individual pilots fly that much,
but a partnership can often reach this number.

What makes co-ownership more expensive is that, with a plane at your
convenient disposal (without the hassles of rental), you are likely to fly a
lot more hours per year. Few renter pilots log 50 hrs/year, but most 3-way
co-owners do.
--
-Elliott Drucker

[William Snow]

Here is the place of all places. Check out one of these. I bought an Arrow
recently thanks to these books and I am as happy as a clam with it.

http://www.aeroprice.com/store/books.htm

Bill Snow CP, IA, ASEL



"G. Sylvester" > wrote in message
.. .
> I've kept my eyes out for existing partnerships in a plane that
> suits my needs but don't see any in my area (SQL, PAO, SJC, RHV).
> So time for me to take the initiative and get on the horse to
> start looking for a plane to buy. Most likely it will be myself,
> a friend and some one or two else going in together. Finding
> the airplane is probably going to be the easy thing...well sort
> of. I'm more scared about learning about insurance, financing,
> tie downs, registration, as well as a reputable A&P plus the
> other million and a half thing. I'm sure it isn't that bad and
> the pros sure outweight the negatives.
>
> But, where do I start? Any books, online references?
> It's probably a good idea that I get the financing squared
> away before I find the plane. Are there any standard
> financial instutions that give loans that are familiar
> with airplanes? obviously I'm starting from square one but I'm
> definitely enthusiastic about this and know it will be work.
>
> If it matters, I haven't decided on a particular plane
> but most likely something along the lines of a solid IFR-equipped,
> older Arrow, Mooney or 182 with a G430/480/530.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
> Gerald Sylvester
>
>
>