Holding pattern reporting

[Yossarian]

At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding fix,
or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix? For
example, your direction of flight makes a parallel entry appropriate. You
cross the fix and turn outbound. Should you report then or wait till you
have turned and crossed the fix again? My instructor and I disagree on
this.

The only thing I can find is in the AIM, 5-3-7-f which states "Pilots
should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the
aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance
limit." To me that means you report upon crossing the fix the first time.

Or is this a difference between what the AIM says and what actual practice
is?

[Gary Drescher]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding
> fix,
> or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix?

For separation purposes, ATC presumably only needs to know that you're
there; I can't think of any reason they'd care about the details of your
maneuvering. So I'd report upon reaching the holding fix.

--Gary

[Greg Farris]

I learned as soon as you cross the fix you report established and reconfirm
your altitude.

This makes most sense, because all ATC needs to know is that you are in the
right place at the right altitude. All the pretty stuff about entries and
timed legs etc only concerns our pride as pilots - as far as ATC is
concerned, if you can stay within the protected airspace (which is huge, for
GA planes) and maintain assigned altitude, the hold has done its job.

G Faris

[Bob Gardner]

AIM 5-3-3 says that the "time and altitude of flight level upon reaching a
holding fix or point to which cleared" should be made without ATC request.
In some cases, ATC may be waiting for your report of crossing the holding
fix to enter the hold before issuing a clearance to another aircraft...if
you wait until you have completed an entry, or a turn in the hold, you are
just screwing up the timing for someone else.

Bob Gardner

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding
> fix,
> or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix? For
> example, your direction of flight makes a parallel entry appropriate. You
> cross the fix and turn outbound. Should you report then or wait till you
> have turned and crossed the fix again? My instructor and I disagree on
> this.
>
> The only thing I can find is in the AIM, 5-3-7-f which states "Pilots
> should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the
> aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance
> limit." To me that means you report upon crossing the fix the first time.
>
> Or is this a difference between what the AIM says and what actual practice
> is?

[Stubby]

What is the "time". "Now" that is, the time of my utterance, seems
sufficient. What am I missing in your AIM quote?


Bob Gardner wrote:
> AIM 5-3-3 says that the "time and altitude of flight level upon reaching a
> holding fix or point to which cleared" should be made without ATC request.
> In some cases, ATC may be waiting for your report of crossing the holding
> fix to enter the hold before issuing a clearance to another aircraft...if
> you wait until you have completed an entry, or a turn in the hold, you are
> just screwing up the timing for someone else.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Yossarian" > wrote in message
> . 97.142...
>
>>At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding
>>fix,
>>or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix? For
>>example, your direction of flight makes a parallel entry appropriate. You
>>cross the fix and turn outbound. Should you report then or wait till you
>>have turned and crossed the fix again? My instructor and I disagree on
>>this.
>>
>>The only thing I can find is in the AIM, 5-3-7-f which states "Pilots
>>should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the
>>aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance
>>limit." To me that means you report upon crossing the fix the first time.
>>
>>Or is this a difference between what the AIM says and what actual practice
>>is?
>
>
>


__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Bill Plummer, BBN 1971 - 1980

[Yossarian]

you're supposed to say the number of minutes past the hour that you cross
the fix. "cessna 1234 seal beach 37 [minutes past the hour] holding at
4000"


Stubby > wrote in
:

> What is the "time". "Now" that is, the time of my utterance, seems
> sufficient. What am I missing in your AIM quote?
>

[[email protected]]

Smart ass

Stubby wrote:

> What is the "time". "Now" that is, the time of my utterance, seems
> sufficient. What am I missing in your AIM quote?
>
> Bob Gardner wrote:
> > AIM 5-3-3 says that the "time and altitude of flight level upon reaching a
> > holding fix or point to which cleared" should be made without ATC request.
> > In some cases, ATC may be waiting for your report of crossing the holding
> > fix to enter the hold before issuing a clearance to another aircraft...if
> > you wait until you have completed an entry, or a turn in the hold, you are
> > just screwing up the timing for someone else.
> >
> > Bob Gardner
> >
> > "Yossarian" > wrote in message
> > . 97.142...
> >
> >>At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding
> >>fix,
> >>or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix? For
> >>example, your direction of flight makes a parallel entry appropriate. You
> >>cross the fix and turn outbound. Should you report then or wait till you
> >>have turned and crossed the fix again? My instructor and I disagree on
> >>this.
> >>
> >>The only thing I can find is in the AIM, 5-3-7-f which states "Pilots
> >>should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the
> >>aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance
> >>limit." To me that means you report upon crossing the fix the first time.
> >>
> >>Or is this a difference between what the AIM says and what actual practice
> >>is?
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Bill Plummer, BBN 1971 - 1980

[Bob Gardner]

"Now" is fine, providing that you are a good enough multitasker to be on top
of any required turn. However, because timing is one of the requirements of
a holding pattern (adjust outbound to make inbound one minute), "now"
suffers in comparison to "at oh-five past the hour," which should trigger a
stop-watch hack by the pilot. "Now" certainly serves the purpose of letting
the controller clear the next guy.

Bob Gardner

"Stubby" > wrote in message
...
> What is the "time". "Now" that is, the time of my utterance, seems
> sufficient. What am I missing in your AIM quote?
>
>
> Bob Gardner wrote:
>> AIM 5-3-3 says that the "time and altitude of flight level upon reaching
>> a holding fix or point to which cleared" should be made without ATC
>> request. In some cases, ATC may be waiting for your report of crossing
>> the holding fix to enter the hold before issuing a clearance to another
>> aircraft...if you wait until you have completed an entry, or a turn in
>> the hold, you are just screwing up the timing for someone else.
>>
>> Bob Gardner
>>
>> "Yossarian" > wrote in message
>> . 97.142...
>>
>>>At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding
>>>fix,
>>>or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix? For
>>>example, your direction of flight makes a parallel entry appropriate.
>>>You
>>>cross the fix and turn outbound. Should you report then or wait till you
>>>have turned and crossed the fix again? My instructor and I disagree on
>>>this.
>>>
>>>The only thing I can find is in the AIM, 5-3-7-f which states "Pilots
>>>should report to ATC the time and altitude/flight level at which the
>>>aircraft reaches the clearance limit and report leaving the clearance
>>>limit." To me that means you report upon crossing the fix the first
>>>time.
>>>
>>>Or is this a difference between what the AIM says and what actual
>>>practice
>>>is?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Bill Plummer, BBN 1971 - 1980

[Stubby]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> "Now" is fine, providing that you are a good enough multitasker to be on top
> of any required turn. However, because timing is one of the requirements of
> a holding pattern (adjust outbound to make inbound one minute), "now"
> suffers in comparison to "at oh-five past the hour," which should trigger a
> stop-watch hack by the pilot. "Now" certainly serves the purpose of letting
> the controller clear the next guy.

Do controllers put that time into a computer which assists in
separation? Are we assuming VFR?

[Bob Gardner]

Sorry about the delay in replying. The controller need not enter the time or
even think about it...timing the holding pattern is the pilot's
responsibility. If the controller's flow plan has another plane
approaching/descending to the same holding fix, all he needs is the report
of entering. I think the time report is just for the audio tape.

And, of course, there is no such thing as a VFR holding pattern. In my
experience, if ATC wants me to kill time when VFR they will tell me to stay
clear of the airspace that I wanted to enter and circle. Where and how is up
to me.

I remember one night way back when, when I was arriving at Reno for the air
races and it was after dark. Everybody was VFR, and ATC had us all hanging
around in the vicinity of the VOR with no other separation than that we
imposed on ourselves...lotta plane-to-plane chatter about altitudes and
general direction from the VOR.

Bob Gardner

"Stubby" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Gardner wrote:
>> "Now" is fine, providing that you are a good enough multitasker to be on
>> top of any required turn. However, because timing is one of the
>> requirements of a holding pattern (adjust outbound to make inbound one
>> minute), "now" suffers in comparison to "at oh-five past the hour," which
>> should trigger a stop-watch hack by the pilot. "Now" certainly serves the
>> purpose of letting the controller clear the next guy.
>
> Do controllers put that time into a computer which assists in separation?
> Are we assuming VFR?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sorry about the delay in replying. The controller need not enter the time
> or even think about it...timing the holding pattern is the pilot's
> responsibility. If the controller's flow plan has another plane
> approaching/descending to the same holding fix, all he needs is the report
> of entering. I think the time report is just for the audio tape.
>

Well, since the tape has a time reference, there should be no need for the
pilot to report the time at all.


>
> And, of course, there is no such thing as a VFR holding pattern.
>

There's one over Rush Lake, Wisconsin.


>
> In my experience, if ATC wants me to kill time when VFR they will tell me
> to
> stay clear of the airspace that I wanted to enter and circle. Where and
> how is up to me.
>

What if you're already in that airspace?


>
> I remember one night way back when, when I was arriving at Reno for the
> air races and it was after dark. Everybody was VFR, and ATC had us all
> hanging around in the vicinity of the VOR with no other separation than
> that we imposed on ourselves...lotta plane-to-plane chatter about
> altitudes and general direction from the VOR.
>

Okay, but what if you were in Class B airspace?

[Wizard of Draws]

On 7/2/05 5:02 PM, in article
.net, "Steven P.
McNicoll" > spewed:
>>
>> And, of course, there is no such thing as a VFR holding pattern.
>>
>
> There's one over Rush Lake, Wisconsin.
>
>

How is a VFR rated pilot expected to know how to execute a holding pattern?
Or are they just expected to loiter in a general area centered above a
prominent landmark?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in
message news:BEECBD61.7D952%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@TOEMAILwiz ardofdraws.com...
>
> How is a VFR rated pilot expected to know how to execute a holding
> pattern?
> Or are they just expected to loiter in a general area centered above a
> prominent landmark?
>

See the AirVenture NOTAM, pages 8 and 9.

http://www.airventure.org/2005/flying/2005_NOTAM.pdf

[Greg Farris]

In article >, says...

>
>And, of course, there is no such thing as a VFR holding pattern. In my
>experience, if ATC wants me to kill time when VFR they will tell me to stay
>clear of the airspace that I wanted to enter and circle. Where and how is up
>to me.
>

I think controllers forget that.
I have been asked to hold at a fix by ATC when VFR in Class D.
I replied "VFR unfamiliar with published hold" and offered to do a 360° for
spacing, which ATC approved. In tuth, I was aware of the published hold, and
could have flown the pattern as published, but I did not feel comfortable
encouraging the controller's blurring of the lines.

I have been asked to "hold" at other times, in places where there is no
published hold. In these cases, I tell them what I'm going to do (usually
360°) just in case they are expecting something else.

G Faris

[David Cartwright]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. 97.142...
> At what point do you report holding to ATC? Upon reaching the holding
> fix,
> or when you are established in the hold and again crossing the fix? For
> example, your direction of flight makes a parallel entry appropriate. You
> cross the fix and turn outbound. Should you report then or wait till you
> have turned and crossed the fix again? My instructor and I disagree on
> this.

Never really thought about it, but when I think back to my IMC rating
training, the rule of thumb seemed to be to report as soon as we were
established in the holding pattern and confident of our position. This
generally meant a "beacon outbound" call the first time we crossed the
beacon whilst in the hold (i.e. not when we were passing over the beacon to
fly, say, a teardrop entry).

D.