Piper Aztec - Purchase Advice

[Bongo]

I'm looking at purchasing an early (1960) Piper Aztec. I would like to know
what should be checked and what the real gotchas are on this age of
aircraft.

Thanks,

Dean

[Jim Burns]

Google this groop for my name + Aztec. Any specific questions you can email
me, I'd be glad to help.
Jim Burns

"Bongo" > wrote in message
...
> I'm looking at purchasing an early (1960) Piper Aztec. I would like to
know
> what should be checked and what the real gotchas are on this age of
> aircraft.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dean
>
>

[Dean]

Jim Burns wrote:
> Google this groop for my name + Aztec. Any specific questions you can email
> me, I'd be glad to help.
> Jim Burns
>
> "Bongo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm looking at purchasing an early (1960) Piper Aztec. I would like to
> know
> > what should be checked and what the real gotchas are on this age of
> > aircraft.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dean
> >
> >

Thanks Jim

I've put a deposit down on the aircraft. The owner has spent a lot on
it over the past few years so it should be in good condition (pre
purchase will confirm), its also been flown regularly which is a plus
in my book.

One question is to do with handling. I've flown it, and its a pussy
cat, however my home grass strip at 600m (2000ft) is plenty long
enough, especially lightly loaded (it doesnt get over 65c here usually
and i'm at 400amsl). It does have a tricky close in tight turn of 90
degrees at a few hundred feet and 1/2 mile from the threshold (we have
pylons at the end of the strip). On other aircraft, no problems, and
I've landed a lot on this strip, and know it well, but i've only 60
hours on twins so not too sure.

There is a 700m hard runway not too far away, but just to sit the
aircraft outside is over 300US dollars/month. I'll definately keep it
here short term until I'm familiar with the aircraft.

In the UK we have a CAA notice 75 on the props (complete strip down,
inspection and replacement of seals, rebuild etc) every 6 years. This
is due next month. I have the option of putting it on the N reg (run
on condition) but do you think the prop overhaul is a good idea anyway
(in the UK its about 7000 dollars for both props).

Cheers,

Dean

[Jim Burns]

Landings is where Aztecs really shine. I see no problem having to maneuver
on final, they are very stable airplanes and are able to fly particularly
slow for a twin. The length of your strip could be an issue. The balanced
field length for ours is 2200 feet at sea level on an asphalt runway. Grass
and a higher density altitude will increase that dramatically, loose an
engine at rotation speed and you won't get it stopped. If you plan on
flying in and out of grass strips, have your gear struts pumped up. On our
plane, the normal prop clearance is only 8 inches, we've got the struts
pumped up so it's much more comfortable.

The prop question on this vintage of Aztec is always a problem. You have to
weigh the repetitive expense vs. the time period you expect to own the
airplane. This was something that we specifically avoided when shopping for
ours, we simply didn't want the expense and hassle. Non AD replacement
props are outrageously priced.

Other items previously mentioned in other threads are:
Generators/Alternators dual or single
Hydraulic pump electric backup?
Hydraulic power pack age/condition
Autopilot, if this age Aztec has an original Mitchell or Century, nobody
will touch it for repairs
Heater, AD's, inspections, nozzle, igniter, combustion and ventilation motor
brushes
All "smooth" hydraulic lines need to be replaced with braided or "rough
surface" lines
Fuel bladders

If you need one, there's a spinner back plate on Ebay right now for an early
Aztec.

Good luck,
Jim

[Kyler Laird]

"Dean" > writes:

>One question is to do with handling. I've flown it, and its a pussy
>cat, however my home grass strip at 600m (2000ft) is plenty long
>enough, especially lightly loaded (it doesnt get over 65c here usually
>and i'm at 400amsl). It does have a tricky close in tight turn of 90
>degrees at a few hundred feet and 1/2 mile from the threshold (we have
>pylons at the end of the strip). On other aircraft, no problems, and
>I've landed a lot on this strip, and know it well, but i've only 60
>hours on twins so not too sure.

I like to go out on stormy nights to get my three night landings for
currency. The storms clear the pattern from all of the students so I
can have fun. The tower here usually lets me do fun things like depart
10 and then immediately flip around and land 23. The Aztec *is* truck-
like but I feel very comfortable doing close-in maneuvers in it.

If the standard Aztec feels marginal on your home strip you can always
add vortex generators, flap seals, wingtips, etc. to improve the low-
speed handling. (I don't have them yet.)

>In the UK we have a CAA notice 75 on the props (complete strip down,
>inspection and replacement of seals, rebuild etc) every 6 years. This
>is due next month. I have the option of putting it on the N reg (run
>on condition) but do you think the prop overhaul is a good idea anyway
>(in the UK its about 7000 dollars for both props).

We just replaced the props on ours to eliminate the AD. I've run into
problems enough even with those new props that I'd tend toward getting
a prop overhaul anyway - perhaps as part of the pre-purchase
negotiation. (We were told our props would be good.)

Good luck!

--kyler

[Dean]

Kyle,

I think landing at our strip will be okay, i'm just not used to hauling
twins around the way I do singles. Perhaps a few hours in the Aztec
will sort that out.

The prop overhaul is probably a good idea anyway, and i'll include this
on the pre purchase (i.e. the props have to pass the inspection).

As an aside, how much are the no-AD props?

Thanks,

Dean

[Kyler Laird]

"Dean" > writes:

>I think landing at our strip will be okay, i'm just not used to hauling
>twins around the way I do singles. Perhaps a few hours in the Aztec
>will sort that out.

Yeah, I got the Aztec before my Private so it's the only plane I *really*
know but I'm quite comfortable swinging it around. The controls might
seem a bit heavy but I think you'll enjoy it.

>As an aside, how much are the no-AD props?

As I recall ours were $7K/side (props and hubs).

--kyler

[Bongo]

I've now had the pre-purchase and apart from a few minor things the main
issue seems to be that the right gear leg is slightly higher than the left.
The engineer thinks the oil has leaked around the seal and its frozen in
place, but isn't a killer on the deal. I'll get the current owner to rectify
this with new seals before sale.

The compressions are reasonable with the left engine having a couple of
cylinders in the mid to high 60's, but I expected this with the engine
having 2100 hours on.

Regards,

Dean
"Bongo" > wrote in message
...
> I'm looking at purchasing an early (1960) Piper Aztec. I would like to
> know what should be checked and what the real gotchas are on this age of
> aircraft.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dean
>

[Jim Burns]

Good luck! I see that the owner of an older local Aztec has his price down
to "Best offer over $22,000
Jim

"Bongo" > wrote in message
...
> I've now had the pre-purchase and apart from a few minor things the main
> issue seems to be that the right gear leg is slightly higher than the
left.
> The engineer thinks the oil has leaked around the seal and its frozen in
> place, but isn't a killer on the deal. I'll get the current owner to
rectify
> this with new seals before sale.
>
> The compressions are reasonable with the left engine having a couple of
> cylinders in the mid to high 60's, but I expected this with the engine
> having 2100 hours on.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dean
> "Bongo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm looking at purchasing an early (1960) Piper Aztec. I would like to
> > know what should be checked and what the real gotchas are on this age of
> > aircraft.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dean
> >
>
>

[Dean]

Jim,

Prices on older Aztecs seem to very "realistic" at present. Here in the
UK where fuel is getting over 7USD/gallon its must be starting to hurt
some people. For me it gives me the chance to get into a twin, without
paying big bucks. I dont mind and expect to pay higher maintenance and
running costs.

I also had the problem that there are literally no twins to rent within
100 miles of where I live. The only one I could find a Seneca IIT is
about 400USD/hour (and thats reasonable over here!).

Lets hope the pre-purchase was accurate!

Dean

Jim Burns wrote:
> Good luck! I see that the owner of an older local Aztec has his price down
> to "Best offer over $22,000
> Jim
>

[[email protected]]

Jim Burns > wrote:
: Good luck! I see that the owner of an older local Aztec has his price down
: to "Best offer over $22,000
: Jim

With the hull value of light twins going to **** like this, I've often thought
it would be worthwhile to relicense them experimental. The general rule for that is
you lose a lot of the value by doing so, but if it doesn't have any to begin with
you're not losing much.

I've not looked into what the gets you, but it may allow for some cost savings
on maintenance and operating costs if you're handy swinging a wrench. If you're not,
you probably don't want to get such and old bird, IMO.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Gig 601XL Builder]

> wrote in message
...
> Jim Burns > wrote:
> : Good luck! I see that the owner of an older local Aztec has his price
> down
> : to "Best offer over $22,000
> : Jim
>
> With the hull value of light twins going to **** like this, I've often
> thought
> it would be worthwhile to relicense them experimental. The general rule
> for that is
> you lose a lot of the value by doing so, but if it doesn't have any to
> begin with
> you're not losing much.
>
> I've not looked into what the gets you, but it may allow for some cost
> savings
> on maintenance and operating costs if you're handy swinging a wrench. If
> you're not,
> you probably don't want to get such and old bird, IMO.
>
> -Cory

From what I've heard it's very hard if not impossible to get them
recertified as EXP-Homebuilt. And any of the other classes of EXP would put
such restrants on its use that it wouldn't be worth it.

[Jim Burns]

This question is often asked and explored by Super Cub owners. I've read a
bit about it in the SC forums. Hardest part of the decision is that it is
like virginity.... once you've done it, you've done it and there isn't much
hope of going back.

Another idea about some of the cheap twins is that they are approaching
their salvage value. Many have pretty good radios, and if you have
relatively sound, even run out engines, you may be getting the airframe,
accessories, and interior for pennies on the dollar. On the other hand, you
also have to deal with pretty old systems. Old hoses, bladders, electrical,
and hydraulics take big bucks to recondition.
Jim

[Newps]

wrote:
> Jim Burns > wrote:
> : Good luck! I see that the owner of an older local Aztec has his price down
> : to "Best offer over $22,000

A buddy of mine just bought an Aztec from a guy in Wisconsin for $22K.
Just brought it back less than a week ago. The guy said he had over
$100K invested. My friend will polish on it a little and it will be up
for sale in the next week or two.

[George Patterson]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> From what I've heard it's very hard if not impossible to get them
> recertified as EXP-Homebuilt.

That would be impossible. You have to have built at least 51% of the aircraft
yourself. That's *built*, not modified.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.