Fuel contamination and other basic survival instincts

[Greg Farris]

This is purely theoretical - it is not something I am planning for next
Saturday :

If you are to fly over an expanse of water or other inhospitible
terrain, for a distance long enough to require re-fueling immediately
prior (US-Europe ferry, for example) - You watch to see that they put
the right fuel in your plane, but you can really only see what's
stenciled on the side of the truck, not what's inside (call me paranoid
- what if the line guy is someone I owe money to). How long do you have
to fly before a fuel contamination problem manifests itself? Does this
depend on how empty your tanks were? I'm guessing no - I'm guessing this
type of problem - any serious fuel contamination problem - would show up
within minutes. Anyone really know this. Anyone here learn this the hard
way?

I've also noted, though far less certain, a number of vacuum or AI
failures take place within the first minutes of flight, not to mention
engines throwing rods etc. You can see what I'm getting at - how useful
a survival instinct would it be to fly, say 20 minutes, up the Icelandic
coast, then double back before setting out across the great void?
(Obviously you've already taken the other measures, and you are wearing
your survival gear etc).

Another question : I read an official accident report (not a newspaper
report) in which ground personnel refilled a small plane's oxygen tanks
with compressed air before a mountain crossing. The pilot died in the
ensuing accident, but miraculously the single passenger survived to
confirm the oxygen-related unconciousness of the pilot as the cause of
the crash. What could this pilot have done to defend against this "rare
but not impossible" event?

We assume that in aviation - unlike on the road - we may kill ourselves
by our own mistakes, but the likliehood of being killed by the mistakes
of others is very far removed. This is certainly justified, however very
far removed does not mean impossible, and our preventive measures should
try to preclude suce events if we can.

G Faris

[Hotel 179]

"Greg Farris" > wrote in message
.... orginal message snipped:

> This is purely theoretical - it is not something I am planning for next
> Saturday :
>
> If you are to fly over an expanse of water or other inhospitible
> terrain, for a distance long enough////////////You can see what I'm
> getting at - how useful
> a survival instinct would it be to fly, say 20 minutes, up the Icelandic
> coast, then double back before setting out across the great void?
---------------------------reply----------------------------------

If you are flying from Florida to the Bahamas, you can circle up to 10,000
feet and follow the line of boats as you descend to the islands.


Stephen F. Pearce
Foley, Alabama

[Ryan Ferguson]

Greg Farris wrote:

> If you are to fly over an expanse of water or other inhospitible
> terrain, for a distance long enough to require re-fueling immediately
> prior (US-Europe ferry, for example) - You watch to see that they put
> the right fuel in your plane, but you can really only see what's
> stenciled on the side of the truck, not what's inside (call me paranoid
> - what if the line guy is someone I owe money to). How long do you have
> to fly before a fuel contamination problem manifests itself? Does this
> depend on how empty your tanks were? I'm guessing no - I'm guessing this
> type of problem - any serious fuel contamination problem - would show up
> within minutes. Anyone really know this. Anyone here learn this the hard
> way?

No way to know. It takes awhile for water to settle in avgas; it could
manifest itself immediately, or a few minutes after takeoff. Factors
such as fuel system layout, amount of water, and effectiveness of fuel
filters would all play a role.

I wasn't particularly thrilled about taking on fuel for a Hughes 500 I
delivered from Florida to San Juan, Puerto Rico, in a number of, ah,
"isolated" spots. I was least pleased about taking fuel in
Providenciales and the Dominican Republic. However, your risk of
contamination (due to water, anyway) in Jet-A is lower than avgas,
because Jet-A (and turbine engines) are more tolerant of water than
pistons. In any case, I did a little 500 ft. traffic pattern after
departing my first fuel stop in the DR, Puerto Plata, then headed east
over the mountains.

> I've also noted, though far less certain, a number of vacuum or AI
> failures take place within the first minutes of flight, not to mention
> engines throwing rods etc. You can see what I'm getting at - how useful
> a survival instinct would it be to fly, say 20 minutes, up the Icelandic
> coast, then double back before setting out across the great void?
> (Obviously you've already taken the other measures, and you are wearing
> your survival gear etc).

Sure, that's useful. Prove out the equipment before you commit.
Hopefully you've already had some trials or other proving runs so you
have a big-picture idea of what you're dealing with; the last test run,
just prior to flight, will be to catch any last-minute gotchas.

> Another question : I read an official accident report (not a newspaper
> report) in which ground personnel refilled a small plane's oxygen tanks
> with compressed air before a mountain crossing. The pilot died in the
> ensuing accident, but miraculously the single passenger survived to
> confirm the oxygen-related unconciousness of the pilot as the cause of
> the crash. What could this pilot have done to defend against this "rare
> but not impossible" event?

Realistically? Nothing. We could probably make some guesses and
theorize about ways to prevent that from happening, but in the real
world, we trust that an O2 fill is an O2 fill. Supervise the recharging
of the tanks, is all I could say.

> We assume that in aviation - unlike on the road - we may kill ourselves
> by our own mistakes, but the likliehood of being killed by the mistakes
> of others is very far removed. This is certainly justified, however very
> far removed does not mean impossible, and our preventive measures should
> try to preclude suce events if we can.

Absolutely. I've "prevented" problems by supervising the refueling of
the Hawker 700 which I fly. It's possible, via a refueling control
panel, for the fueler to put fuel where it doesn't belong, i.e. ventral
and dorsal tanks when all I asked for was the wings to be topped. Since
T/O with partial fuel in those tanks is not allowed, I'd have a real
problem if the fueler accidentally fueled those tanks. Even worse is
when the fueler tries to fill tanks that are already full and the
airplane starts discharging fuel onto the ramp via a surge overflow
vent. The EPA comes runnin'! My policy is to always be present when
the aircraft is fueled.

Good thoughts, Greg.

-Ryan

[Dale]

In article >,
Greg Farris > wrote:


> depend on how empty your tanks were? I'm guessing no - I'm guessing this
> type of problem - any serious fuel contamination problem - would show up
> within minutes. Anyone really know this. Anyone here learn this the hard
> way?

I know of a Seneca that was fuel with Jet fuel. Both engines failed
within 1/2 mile of the airport on takeoff. I don't know how much avgas
was in the tanks when the jet fuel was put in. I had a problem on
takeoff with water in the fuel on a '57 182. I had been flying the
airplane all day, I had fueled several times (all from the same source)
and the problem occured on the last flight of the day.



> Another question : I read an official accident report (not a newspaper
> report) in which ground personnel refilled a small plane's oxygen tanks
> with compressed air before a mountain crossing. The pilot died in the
> ensuing accident, but miraculously the single passenger survived to
> confirm the oxygen-related unconciousness of the pilot as the cause of
> the crash. What could this pilot have done to defend against this "rare
> but not impossible" event?

SCUBA divers use a test device to determine the amount of O2 in the tank
when using mixed gas so I would have to say it is possible to test the
O2 content of your a/c system.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Ben Hallert]

Sounds like a good argument to check the sumps on your takes as part of
your preflight. My instructor told me explicitly not to trust the fuel
truck, as PIC it's my responsibillity to make sure he didn't 'fill me
up with water' (was one way he put it).

He taught me to sump the tanks, then verify the color of the fuel
against a white surface. I know that it can take a few minutes for
contamination or wrong fuel to settle to the sumps, but if I _don't_
check, then I lose an opportunity to abort the flight I might have
otherwise had. Basically, it's not a 100% guarentee I'll catch a
problem, but it's certainly better then if I just go on 'faith' (a poor
trait to have in the cockpit, it seems).

First time I fueled at a nice FBO, I felt kinda funny when I sumped and
checked the tank, like the look the fuel guy was giving me was sorta
funny, but I remembered my responsibillity and finished the check.
It's my butt on the line, not his.

I've read stories of turbo normalized planes getting Jet-A because the
fuel truck saw 'Turbo' and read 'Turboprop'.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Alan Gerber]

In rec.aviation.ifr Ben Hallert > wrote:
> First time I fueled at a nice FBO, I felt kinda funny when I sumped and
> checked the tank, like the look the fuel guy was giving me was sorta
> funny, but I remembered my responsibillity and finished the check.

Remember, you're checking for a few things:

1) Is the fuel the right grade (as indicated by the color)?
2) Is there water in the fuel?
3) Is there other contamination?

There's no reason for the fuel guy to interpret your check as criticism or
suspicion of his actions. An error in the fuel grade could be introduced
by somebody else (e.g., whoever filled the truck, whoever filled your
tanks the previous time), and the other problems could have other causes
(e.g., maybe your previous fill had water in it, but it didn't have time
to settle out and be visible before you took off).

> It's my butt on the line, not his.

Very true. Don't let funny looks deter you. (Not to mention that the
funny look might not even be related to what you're doing.)

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com

[buttman]

The odds of someone filling your O2 tanks with air instead of O2 is
just as deadly and just as likley to happen as someone putting Drain-O
on your sandwitch instead of mustard at a Subway restraunt. Well, maybe
not as likley, but you get the idea. Some things in life you just have
to risk. Thats not to say fuel sumps need not be checked, or simple
inspections shouldn't be made, but there exists a line which seperates
reasonable precautions and insanity.

[Kyle Boatright]

"buttman" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> The odds of someone filling your O2 tanks with air instead of O2 is
> just as deadly and just as likley to happen as someone putting Drain-O
> on your sandwitch instead of mustard at a Subway restraunt. Well, maybe
> not as likley, but you get the idea. Some things in life you just have
> to risk. Thats not to say fuel sumps need not be checked, or simple
> inspections shouldn't be made, but there exists a line which seperates
> reasonable precautions and insanity.

I'm aware of a story similar to what the original poster mentioned regarding
filling an 02 tank with regular compressed air. It was a C-337 on a
photography mission. The passenger (who was in the back, ready to shoot
photos) passed out at ~20k ft, and the pilot lost consciousness somewhat
higher. The airplane departed from controlled flight, and came apart on the
way down. The wings, tail, etc. came down miles from the fuselage. The
fuselage came down in a tree, killing the pilot. When the fire department
came to pull the body out of the aircraft, the passenger woke up and climbed
down the ladder with the firemen with minor injuries.

True story. I have met the NTSB guy who was the lead investigator. He
indicated that the FBO had been filling O2 tanks with regular compressed air
for a lengthy time. They had to notify the FBO's recent O2 customers on an
emergency basis to let them know that their oxygen tanks needed to be purged
and re-filled.

A very interesting tale which goes to show that there are many, many ways to
die quickly in an airplane. Some of them unforseen.

KB

[lardsoup]

An Instructor once told me that it takes 5 minutes per inch of fuel in the
tank for all the water (if any) to show up in the sumps. Don't know where
he got that from, but I thought I'd pass it on.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.ifr lardsoup > wrote:
> An Instructor once told me that it takes 5 minutes per inch of fuel in the
> tank for all the water (if any) to show up in the sumps. Don't know where
> he got that from, but I thought I'd pass it on.

CRC Chemistry.

I believe the settling rate of water in 100LL is 1" per minute.
Figure your tanks are 9" deep... check after 9 minutes.
Adjust for the depth of your tanks.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 228 Young Eagles!

[xyzzy]

Ben Hallert wrote:

> Sounds like a good argument to check the sumps on your takes as part of
> your preflight. My instructor told me explicitly not to trust the fuel
> truck, as PIC it's my responsibillity to make sure he didn't 'fill me
> up with water' (was one way he put it).
>
> He taught me to sump the tanks, then verify the color of the fuel
> against a white surface. I know that it can take a few minutes for
> contamination or wrong fuel to settle to the sumps, but if I _don't_
> check, then I lose an opportunity to abort the flight I might have
> otherwise had. Basically, it's not a 100% guarentee I'll catch a
> problem, but it's certainly better then if I just go on 'faith' (a poor
> trait to have in the cockpit, it seems).
>
> First time I fueled at a nice FBO, I felt kinda funny when I sumped and
> checked the tank, like the look the fuel guy was giving me was sorta
> funny, but I remembered my responsibillity and finished the check.
> It's my butt on the line, not his.
>

First time I fueled at a "nice FBO" (Signature at IAD) i said fill it to
the tabs and they even wrote that on the fuel ticket, so I went about my
business that day. The fueler topped the tanks while I wasn't there, I
returned to find them topped and they had to drain fuel, a lot of hassle
for them and delay for me. I think in that case they would have
preferred that I had watched over them, but at the big FBOs sometimes
unless you're leaving right away you can't get them to do it at a time
you can be there to watch.

[Roy Smith]

> at the big FBOs sometimes unless you're leaving right away you can't
> get them to do it at a time you can be there to watch.

I was at Signature in BAL recently. I was staying a couple of days
and left an order to top off. The person at the desk asked when I
wanted that done, and I replied, "Any time before Tuesday morning
would be fine". She volunteered that today was Sunday and they give a
$0.50/gal discount on weekends, would I mind if they did it today? I
wish all decisions in aviation were that easy!

[Morgans]

"Roy Smith" > wrote

>She volunteered that today was Sunday and they give a
> $0.50/gal discount on weekends, would I mind if they did it today? I
> wish all decisions in aviation were that easy!

You did decline, right? <g>
--
Jim in NC

[L. R. Du Broff]

Posters have been advocating the practice of watching the line service
person fuel the airplane.

I take this a step further. If not at a self-service facility (which
always saves $$$), I request the line person to bring the truck around and
then I fuel the airplane. I sniff the first fuel out of the hose and rub a
few drops between my fingers and thumb (jet fuel smells different and feels
different). I then add the amount I want, and I am able to avoid damage to
the bladder and to the float mechanism that sends info to the fuel quantity
guage.

Yeah, the FBO people sometimes think I'm weird, but in the end, anything
and everything on the subsequent flight is my responsibility, both legally
and morally, and I'm not going to bypass a simple step like direct control
of something that could ruin my whole day. Been doing it that way for over
forty years, and I'll continue, until the day I stop flying.

[Doug]

Take whatever steps you think necessary. I will say this. In 2200 hours
of flying all over the US, Canada and Alaska, I've never seen fuel
contamination with water nor have I had debris in my fuel filter. The
only problem I've ever had is the fueler NOT topping it off completely,
which if you are counting on flying close to your max range with full
tanks can be bad news. There are lots of accidents where pilots run out
of fuel. Do everything you can not to do that. Take whatever steps you
think is necessary. I try and watch the fueler or fill the tanks
myself. I check the gas caps (never had anyone put them on wrong
though).

[Andrew Sarangan]

You can't check all possible scenarios, but water and jet fuel are
heavier than 100LL, and will sink to the bottom of the tank. It should
show up in the sump drain, so there is no excuse for overlooking it. I
suppose a contamination ligher than 100LL may not show up until later.

You are correct that low probability does not mean impossible. However,
we can't live life that way. There is a finite probability that you will
win the lottery, but you can plan your life around that.





Greg Farris > wrote in news:dadpi3$23o4$2
@biggoron.nerim.net:

> This is purely theoretical - it is not something I am planning for
next
> Saturday :
>
> If you are to fly over an expanse of water or other inhospitible
> terrain, for a distance long enough to require re-fueling immediately
> prior (US-Europe ferry, for example) - You watch to see that they put
> the right fuel in your plane, but you can really only see what's
> stenciled on the side of the truck, not what's inside (call me
paranoid
> - what if the line guy is someone I owe money to). How long do you
have
> to fly before a fuel contamination problem manifests itself? Does this
> depend on how empty your tanks were? I'm guessing no - I'm guessing
this
> type of problem - any serious fuel contamination problem - would show
up
> within minutes. Anyone really know this. Anyone here learn this the
hard
> way?
>
> I've also noted, though far less certain, a number of vacuum or AI
> failures take place within the first minutes of flight, not to mention
> engines throwing rods etc. You can see what I'm getting at - how
useful
> a survival instinct would it be to fly, say 20 minutes, up the
Icelandic
> coast, then double back before setting out across the great void?
> (Obviously you've already taken the other measures, and you are
wearing
> your survival gear etc).
>
> Another question : I read an official accident report (not a newspaper
> report) in which ground personnel refilled a small plane's oxygen
tanks
> with compressed air before a mountain crossing. The pilot died in the
> ensuing accident, but miraculously the single passenger survived to
> confirm the oxygen-related unconciousness of the pilot as the cause of
> the crash. What could this pilot have done to defend against this
"rare
> but not impossible" event?
>
> We assume that in aviation - unlike on the road - we may kill
ourselves
> by our own mistakes, but the likliehood of being killed by the
mistakes
> of others is very far removed. This is certainly justified, however
very
> far removed does not mean impossible, and our preventive measures
should
> try to preclude suce events if we can.
>
> G Faris
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

Actually, it will take a lot longer for all the water to settle to the
bottom. Tiny droplets of water setlle at an extremely slow rate, and even a
small agitation will disturb them back into the fuel. The basic idea of the
sump drain is not just to remove water, but to indicate that there is a
problem with the fuel. Once you detect water in the sumps, it's going to
take a lot longer than 5 minutes to get going.



"lardsoup" > wrote in
:

> An Instructor once told me that it takes 5 minutes per inch of fuel in
> the tank for all the water (if any) to show up in the sumps. Don't
> know where he got that from, but I thought I'd pass it on.
>
>
>

[john smith]

Regarding your AirVenture trip...

email me: eroodatrrohio.com (make the appropriate substitutions)