Oil change questions

[Jimmy B.]

Well, it was time to change the oil in the old bug smasher. Seeing this
is my first time, I hired a mechanic to walk me through it. Of course
it is pretty straight forward, but a few questions came up.

1) The oil filter specified a torque setting of 16 to 18 ft-lbs. The
mechanic told me mot to do that, just 1 more turn after the gasket
seats. He said that if I used the torque setting, it would be very hard
to get the filter off again.

What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?

2) A lot of people to change the oil every 3 months regardless of hours
on the oil. Combustion waste gets absorbed by the oil. The mechanic
said he liked that idea because it would generate more revenue for him,
but he felt it was not really necessary.

What is your opinion?

TIA!!!!

[Bob Noel]

In article .net>,
"Jimmy B." > wrote:

> Well, it was time to change the oil in the old bug smasher. Seeing this
> is my first time, I hired a mechanic to walk me through it. Of course
> it is pretty straight forward, but a few questions came up.
>
> 1) The oil filter specified a torque setting of 16 to 18 ft-lbs. The
> mechanic told me mot to do that, just 1 more turn after the gasket
> seats. He said that if I used the torque setting, it would be very hard
> to get the filter off again.
>
> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?

I'm not an A&P

When I'm doing under supervision, I use the A&P's method.
When I'm doing it on my own, I torque it (as long as I have
a calibrated torque wrench).

I've never had a problem removing a filter that I torqued.

>
> 2) A lot of people to change the oil every 3 months regardless of hours
> on the oil. Combustion waste gets absorbed by the oil. The mechanic
> said he liked that idea because it would generate more revenue for him,
> but he felt it was not really necessary.
>
> What is your opinion?

I do it every 50 hours or 4 months, whichever comes first.
(and I can't remember where the 4 month thing came from).

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Jim Burns]

> 1) The oil filter specified a torque setting of 16 to 18 ft-lbs. The
> mechanic told me mot to do that, just 1 more turn after the gasket
> seats. He said that if I used the torque setting, it would be very hard
> to get the filter off again.
>
> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?

Torque to specs and use Dow Corning DC-4 on the seal, you shouldn't have any
problems getting it off. A 1" socket works better for us than the typical
oil filter wrench. Learn how and where to safety wire the filter. Make
sure you watch him cut and examine your filter. If you don't cut it and
inspect it, you might as well not even change it.

>
> 2) A lot of people to change the oil every 3 months regardless of hours
> on the oil. Combustion waste gets absorbed by the oil. The mechanic
> said he liked that idea because it would generate more revenue for him,
> but he felt it was not really necessary.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/support/publications/keyReprints/maintenance/oilFilter.html

Says 4 months. I'd say simply fly more. :) However with oil changes, more
often is better than less often. We typically change oil at 33 hours and
the filter at 66, slightly less than the Lyc recommendation on the oil,
slightly longer than the recommendation on the filter.

Jim

[[email protected]]

On 7-Jul-2005, "Jim Burns" > wrote:

> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?

We ALWAYS torque to spec, and have never had the slightest problem removing
the filter from our Lyc. IO-360.



> If you don't cut it and
> inspect it, you might as well not even change it.

I HOPE that's a tongue-in-cheek comment. Sure it's a good idea to open up
the filter to inspect for metal, but if that can't be done right away it
doesn't mean you shouldn't change the filter when appropriate.
--
-Elliott Drucker

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JB" == Jimmy B > writes:

JB> What is your opinion?

Get another mechanic, the one you have is bull****.

[Maule Driver]

About the same as your mechanic. I can't get a torque wrench on it so I
just handtighten to "that's about right" and safety wire properly.
Never leaked, never stuck.

I set my 300XL to notify 35 hours after the last change. I won't let it
go past 50. I won't let it go past 6 months but I fly often enough that
it's not a problem.

I skipped the filter and oil analysis on my last 2 changes for no good
reason other than I have a bad filter cutter and ran out of analysis
samplers. Ordering now.

Jimmy B. wrote:
> Well, it was time to change the oil in the old bug smasher. Seeing this
> is my first time, I hired a mechanic to walk me through it. Of course
> it is pretty straight forward, but a few questions came up.
>
> 1) The oil filter specified a torque setting of 16 to 18 ft-lbs. The
> mechanic told me mot to do that, just 1 more turn after the gasket
> seats. He said that if I used the torque setting, it would be very hard
> to get the filter off again.
>
> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?
>
> 2) A lot of people to change the oil every 3 months regardless of hours
> on the oil. Combustion waste gets absorbed by the oil. The mechanic
> said he liked that idea because it would generate more revenue for him,
> but he felt it was not really necessary.
>
> What is your opinion?
>
> TIA!!!!

[Jim Burns]

> I HOPE that's a tongue-in-cheek comment.

Kind of, it's meant to put the emphasis on inspecting the filter rather than
just changing it and blindly tossing it in the trash.

>Sure it's a good idea to open up
> the filter to inspect for metal, but if that can't be done right away....

I wasn't inferring that you had to do it right away, just that it should be
done.

> it
> doesn't mean you shouldn't change the filter when appropriate.

Agreed.

Here's a quote from a Lycoming publication that more eloquently puts my
point across....

"In summing up this brief supplemental bit of information about the oil and
your engine, remember that it was not intended as instruction as detailed as
the knowledge required of a mechanic. But we think you will agree that the
"Typical Pilot" should know more about his aircraft engine than "Mr. Typical
Driver" knows about his automobile engine-the penalty for not knowing the
basics is greater in aviation."
An easy way to know more about your engine is to cut the filter each time
you change it.

Jim

[Mike Spera]

As others have stated, use Dow Corning DC-4 (Chief Aircraft supply ). It
makes removing the filter easier than with plain oil. Torque to spec or
3/4 turn past gasket contact when you don't have a wrench (as it says on
the filter). 1 turn seems a bit much, but you can check it with a torque
wrench to see how close it is to spec.

As to the time limit, you are correct. Acids form in the oil that
corrode the insides of the engine. Not sure if the Lycoming spec was 3
or 4 months or something else, but there was a time limit.

Many mechanics are used to changing oil at the request of cheapskate or
neglectful owners. By the time that happens, the oil is usually a year
old and has turned to black sludge. Surprising the mechanic would give
you such a tongue in cheek answer when the engine manufacturers have a
recommended time limit.

Good Luck,
Mike

Jimmy B. wrote:
> Well, it was time to change the oil in the old bug smasher. Seeing this
> is my first time, I hired a mechanic to walk me through it. Of course
> it is pretty straight forward, but a few questions came up.
>
> 1) The oil filter specified a torque setting of 16 to 18 ft-lbs. The
> mechanic told me mot to do that, just 1 more turn after the gasket
> seats. He said that if I used the torque setting, it would be very hard
> to get the filter off again.
>
> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?
>
> 2) A lot of people to change the oil every 3 months regardless of hours
> on the oil. Combustion waste gets absorbed by the oil. The mechanic
> said he liked that idea because it would generate more revenue for him,
> but he felt it was not really necessary.
>
> What is your opinion?
>
> TIA!!!!

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[Jimmy B.]

Thank you to all who replied. Most informative.

I really liked Jim's suggestion to fly more often. Why didn't I think
of that? ;-)

I've already ordered the DC-4 and I'm looking for a source for
calibrated torque wrenches. All the automotive tool shops around here
sell the cheap uncalibrated wrenches. Any one know a good source?



Jimmy B. wrote:
> Well, it was time to change the oil in the old bug smasher. Seeing this
> is my first time, I hired a mechanic to walk me through it. Of course
> it is pretty straight forward, but a few questions came up.
>
> 1) The oil filter specified a torque setting of 16 to 18 ft-lbs. The
> mechanic told me mot to do that, just 1 more turn after the gasket
> seats. He said that if I used the torque setting, it would be very hard
> to get the filter off again.
>
> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?
>
> 2) A lot of people to change the oil every 3 months regardless of hours
> on the oil. Combustion waste gets absorbed by the oil. The mechanic
> said he liked that idea because it would generate more revenue for him,
> but he felt it was not really necessary.
>
> What is your opinion?
>
> TIA!!!!

[[email protected]]

Jimmy B. > wrote:
> Thank you to all who replied. Most informative.

> I really liked Jim's suggestion to fly more often. Why didn't I think
> of that? ;-)

> I've already ordered the DC-4 and I'm looking for a source for
> calibrated torque wrenches. All the automotive tool shops around here
> sell the cheap uncalibrated wrenches. Any one know a good source?

http://www.harborfreight.com

http://www.rutlandtool.com


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[nrp]

I never fully trust the snap type torque wrenches & would put more
faith in the bending beam type (which one do you call cheap &
uncalibrated?). Unless the snap type is calibrated before use, there
could be quite a bit of error in it. The beam type only has to return
to zero after each use.

Anyone else have similar or different thoughts on this? The world
seems to have gone to snap types.

[[email protected]]

On 8 Jul 2005 12:36:56 -0700, "nrp" > wrote:

>I never fully trust the snap type torque wrenches & would put more
>faith in the bending beam type (which one do you call cheap &
>uncalibrated?). Unless the snap type is calibrated before use, there
>could be quite a bit of error in it. The beam type only has to return
>to zero after each use.
>
>Anyone else have similar or different thoughts on this? The world
>seems to have gone to snap types.

I've got a guaranteed 4% accurate $napOn clicker that comes through
cal within the 4%, but needs tweaked about every other year.

Don't do much of it anymore, but have got a Mac Tool$ bender ($10 at a
garage sale) that gets cal'ed every year (heh) that gets used for
cylinder bases & other mission critical stuff.

Like you said, if a bender reads O, it's extremely likely to be OK.
Cheap clickers tend to crunch instead of click, but have one in the
shop that gets sent every 12 months and gets tweaked about every three
years (that would be LESS often than my $napOn)

Toughest thing to do with a properly cal'ed clicker is not pull it
through the click & over-torque a little.

TC

[George Patterson]

Jimmy B. wrote:
>
> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?

Torque to specs. I also use the Dow lubricant on the gasket instead of engine oil.

> What is your opinion?

Lycoming says to change the oil in the O-320 series every 4 months or 50 hours
of operation, whichever comes first. IIRC, Continental said 4 months or 25 hours
with the O-200 with a screen. The recommendation for a 3 or 4 month change
period is pretty widespread. I'd be looking for another mechanic.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Jimmy B.]

George Patterson wrote:
> Jimmy B. wrote:
>
>>
>> What do you all do? Torque to the specification, or just 1 turn?
>
>
> Torque to specs. I also use the Dow lubricant on the gasket instead of
> engine oil.
>
>> What is your opinion?
>
>
> Lycoming says to change the oil in the O-320 series every 4 months or 50
> hours of operation, whichever comes first. IIRC, Continental said 4
> months or 25 hours with the O-200 with a screen. The recommendation for
> a 3 or 4 month change period is pretty widespread. I'd be looking for
> another mechanic.

The more I deal with this mechanic, the less I like him. For example, I
have a Precise Flight standby vacuum system, and the indicator light is
out. When I told him about it, his response was that not everything has
to work. I told him that without the light, I would not know that my
vacuum pump has failed until I got high enough in altitude that the
Precise Flight system could not produce enough vacuum and by then, I
could be in or above IMC. He just shrugged and walked away.

For planned maintenance, it is easy to go to another shop, but he's the
only mechanic on the field and I do want to stay on good terms with him
just in case I need something done and the plane is unflyable.

I would like to find a free-lance mechanic that could come to my field
to do work.


>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

[Doug]

Tell him to fix it. If he won't find another mechanic who will. Don't
tell him you are taking it to another mechanic. It's none of his
business. Don't **** him off, just do what you have to do to maintain
the airplane. The light should work. I think, ideally, EVERYTHING in my
plane should work. But it is UP TO YOU. Don't let a mechanic, or me,
dictate the maintenance of YOUR airplane. It is your property, you are
in charge of it.

[George Patterson]

Jimmy B. wrote:
>
> For planned maintenance, it is easy to go to another shop, but he's the
> only mechanic on the field and I do want to stay on good terms with him
> just in case I need something done and the plane is unflyable.
>
> I would like to find a free-lance mechanic that could come to my field
> to do work.

Yeah, that would be nice, but it looks like you're stuck with this guy for now.
Here's what I would do in your shoes. Don't ask this guy any questions if you
can help it. When something needs to be fixed, ask him to fix it, and try to do
it in such a way that he won't feel comfortable arguing.

I once had to deal with a mechanic who had similar ideas to your man (mine would
never have recommended postponing oil changes, however). Pete's problem was that
he dealt with cheapskate pilots so much that he just assumed that everybody
would want to take shortcuts. Once I had a bad plug wire and he recommended
replacing just the bad one. When I told him to put in a new set of plug wires
instead, he did what I asked. After I explained that all the wires were the same
age and I didn't want to be bringing the plane back in every few months to
replace another one, he understood. After that, we could discuss alternatives
for each job of work. Sounds like that approach isn't working for you, though.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Ross Richardson]

Another thing that is a MUST with the clicker torque tools is to unload
them after each use. Do not leave them set to a torque.

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


wrote:
> On 8 Jul 2005 12:36:56 -0700, "nrp" > wrote:
>
>
>>I never fully trust the snap type torque wrenches & would put more
>>faith in the bending beam type (which one do you call cheap &
>>uncalibrated?). Unless the snap type is calibrated before use, there
>>could be quite a bit of error in it. The beam type only has to return
>>to zero after each use.
>>
>>Anyone else have similar or different thoughts on this? The world
>>seems to have gone to snap types.
>
>
> I've got a guaranteed 4% accurate $napOn clicker that comes through
> cal within the 4%, but needs tweaked about every other year.
>
> Don't do much of it anymore, but have got a Mac Tool$ bender ($10 at a
> garage sale) that gets cal'ed every year (heh) that gets used for
> cylinder bases & other mission critical stuff.
>
> Like you said, if a bender reads O, it's extremely likely to be OK.
> Cheap clickers tend to crunch instead of click, but have one in the
> shop that gets sent every 12 months and gets tweaked about every three
> years (that would be LESS often than my $napOn)
>
> Toughest thing to do with a properly cal'ed clicker is not pull it
> through the click & over-torque a little.
>
> TC

[nrp]

If you have any oil contamination factors such as using primarily 100LL
fuels, a lot of engine blowby, and are not able to control the
operation for minimum contamination, I agree the oil should be changed
fairly often. But I have a 1700 hr TTSN O-320E2D in a 172M that now
only flys about 30 hrs/year. I change oil (and always filter too) only
every year since the oil stays unusually clean. It takes nearly 20
hours before it even loses its green and gets coffee colored. At change
I've randomly checked the oil analysis and it always comes back normal.

The oil was Mobil straight grade during its initial 700 hours and has
been Shell 20W50 for the last 1000 hrs. We are based in a low
contamination area (Minnesota and Wisconsin), and burn 80 Octane or
autofuel to minimize lead contamination. When we were flying it more,
we changed oil only every 50 hours. Consumption remains 1 qt every 30
hrs. The engine remains quite cold blooded on CHT and oil temp.

I climb at higher airspeeds, cruise it leaned and with lower power
settings, avoid 100LL, am careful to purge the combustion products on
shutdown, always preheat but don't continuosly heat during the winter,
& watch the baffling and engine external cleanliness. Interestingly it
never has had particularily good compression numbers, but always has
had excellent "bounce"