My Annual

[Charles Talleyrand]

It would be interesting if other people would post what their annuals
have been like. I'll start.

I own a Cessna 150, which I have had for several years. This year my
annual ..

It seems some Cessna 150 owners have been finding cracks in the
vertical tail attach bracket. It's a piece of metal the size of my
palm that any fool could weld together. It costs (I'm told) $200. To
inspect it requires removing both vertical and horizontal stabilizers,
the elevator and rudder. I'm told this is 10 hours labor. Our local
mechanic has inspected seven and found two cracked.

The mechanic offered to have his apprentence do the grunt work and he
would do the inspection. The apprentence's labor comes without charge,
so I only paid for the inspection itself (very quick dye penetrant
test). Doing this also means you can replace some nut plates with
actual nuts and terminate a repeetitive AD.

In addition I got

Several repetitive AD inspections checked
New oil and filter
Spark plugs cleaned and gapped
Seals on vacuum pump replaced
Valve cover gaskets replaced on three cylinders
Compressions of 74,76,74,76 (not bad for a 1100 hour engine).
Nose gear torque tube link retightened
Shimmy damper cleaned and serviced.
ELT inspected (It's fine)
Wheel bearings cleaned and repacked

Total cost $800. This is the only maintenance I've needed this year.

[Jon Kraus]

This was our first annual in our '79 Mooney 201. 8.5 AMU's and I am
still scabbing over from the beating.

rebuilt exhaust
nose gear truss and tubes
magnito work
fuel tank repairs

Those were the biggies.

Jon Kraus
4443H @ TYQ

Charles Talleyrand wrote:
> It would be interesting if other people would post what their annuals
> have been like. I'll start.
>
> I own a Cessna 150, which I have had for several years. This year my
> annual ..
>
> It seems some Cessna 150 owners have been finding cracks in the
> vertical tail attach bracket. It's a piece of metal the size of my
> palm that any fool could weld together. It costs (I'm told) $200. To
> inspect it requires removing both vertical and horizontal stabilizers,
> the elevator and rudder. I'm told this is 10 hours labor. Our local
> mechanic has inspected seven and found two cracked.
>
> The mechanic offered to have his apprentence do the grunt work and he
> would do the inspection. The apprentence's labor comes without charge,
> so I only paid for the inspection itself (very quick dye penetrant
> test). Doing this also means you can replace some nut plates with
> actual nuts and terminate a repeetitive AD.
>
> In addition I got
>
> Several repetitive AD inspections checked
> New oil and filter
> Spark plugs cleaned and gapped
> Seals on vacuum pump replaced
> Valve cover gaskets replaced on three cylinders
> Compressions of 74,76,74,76 (not bad for a 1100 hour engine).
> Nose gear torque tube link retightened
> Shimmy damper cleaned and serviced.
> ELT inspected (It's fine)
> Wheel bearings cleaned and repacked
>
> Total cost $800. This is the only maintenance I've needed this year.
>

[Mike Granby]

> The apprentence's labor comes without charge

A bargain, I would say.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

> I own a Cessna 150, which I have had for several years. This year my
> annual ..

'65 C172F, recently sold. Paying $200 a month for hanger was the final
straw. 4R7 ($400 for the hanger, split 2 ways)...

> Spark plugs cleaned and gapped

Replaced fine wire with massive electrode from those fine folks out on
the left coast...

> Valve cover gaskets replaced on three cylinders

Same here, but all six cylinders, new valve covers as well. Cured the
majority of the oil leaks. Replacing o-rings on the dipstick, tightning
all the cylinders and replacing all the crush rings - fixed all the
others...

> Compressions of 74,76,74,76 (not bad for a 1100 hour engine).

3400+ hours, 900+ since topped with chrome cylinders, readings about the
same, 2 higher, 2 lower, all above 70...

> Nose gear torque tube link retightened
> Shimmy damper cleaned and serviced.

Replaced the little henge piece behind the nose strut (cracked in 2
places), 2.3 AMU's is what cessna wants, did it for $300 through a
salvage firm. 5 sets of strut seals before they finally got one that
didn't leak down in a few days time. Added some shims in the strut as
well. Replaced a tire with a bald spot at the same time, used tire from
the same salvage people, plus new tube ($35)...

Nose rim also had spun bearings, replaced the rim and the bearings.
Forget what the AMU's were on a rim, $100 or so through salvage. Keep in
mind that all of this was repaired/replaced less than 2 months after
prior owner's annual and we took ownership of it and at our expense...

> Wheel bearings cleaned and repacked

Replaced both brake discs, one had actually rusted through in a few
places, both worn to minimums. New brake pads, new chrome discs ($100
ea.). Steel was cheaper, stainless was more expensive...

> Total cost $800. This is the only maintenance I've needed this year.

Annual inspection labor was under $300, we did most of the work
ourselves, did all of the annual dissasembly and reassembly...

Shopping planes again. Would like an amphib, 4 seats preferred...

[RST Engineering]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...

> This was our first annual in our '79 Mooney 201. 8.5 AMU's and I am still
> scabbing over from the beating.
>
> rebuilt exhaust
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> nose gear truss and tubes
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> magnito work
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> fuel tank repairs
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.


Jim

[Doug]

I happen to have an Aviat Husky Amphib for sale. Not a 4 place but a
great two place. Just annualed.
Contact me at anothername(at)comcast(dot)net. (Repalce the at with an
@ and the dot with . ).

Nothing like Seaplane flying. Great freedom. Land on lakes!!!

Pics on Jays website.

[RST Engineering]

>
> It seems some Cessna 150 owners have been finding cracks in the
> vertical tail attach bracket.

It seems the FAA thinks the same thing, since they issued an Airworthiness
Directive in 1980 for that same problem. See AD 80-11-04.


It's a piece of metal the size of my
> palm that any fool could weld together. It costs (I'm told) $200. To
> inspect it requires removing both vertical and horizontal stabilizers,
> the elevator and rudder. I'm told this is 10 hours labor. Our local
> mechanic has inspected seven and found two cracked.

Horsefeathers. It requires a flashlight, an inspection mirror, and ten
minutes. See Cessna service letter 79-49.


Doing this also means you can replace some nut plates with
> actual nuts and terminate a repeetitive AD.

That's true.

>
> In addition I got
>
> Several repetitive AD inspections checked

> New oil and filter
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> Spark plugs cleaned and gapped
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> Seals on vacuum pump replaced
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> Valve cover gaskets replaced on three cylinders
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> Compressions of 74,76,74,76 (not bad for a 1100 hour engine).

> Nose gear torque tube link retightened
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> Shimmy damper cleaned and serviced.
Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

> ELT inspected (It's fine)

> Wheel bearings cleaned and repacked
>
> Total cost $800. This is the only maintenance I've needed this year.

That's not bad, but you could have done $600 worth of it yourself.

Jim

[Steve Foley]

Nobody mentioned the word INSPECTION.

This is the annual "Mechanic needs a new toy so I get to buy it for him"
party.

For anyone wondering, go check out

http://www.rst-engr.com/annual/

For Jim's opinion of how an owner should have his ANNUAL INSPECTION done.

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

[Jon Kraus]

I didn't say anything about the INSPECTION did I...

Jon Kraus
'79 mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ

RST Engineering wrote:
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>This was our first annual in our '79 Mooney 201. 8.5 AMU's and I am still
>>scabbing over from the beating.
>>
>>rebuilt exhaust
>
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
>
>
>>nose gear truss and tubes
>
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
>
>
>>magnito work
>
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
>
>
>>fuel tank repairs
>
> Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>

[Kyler Laird]

"Charles Talleyrand" > writes:

>It would be interesting if other people would post what their annuals
>have been like. I'll start.

I just learned mine was about $9K (after very little flying this
past year). I don't even want to look but the high points were "free"
turbo oil tank replacements and a stabilator skin replacement.

--kyler

[Jim Burns]

Got our invoice for the Aztec's maintenance, repair, windshield install, and
annual inspection right in front of me...

1. Cleaned and gapped plugs... owners did this
2. RE Comps 72/80 76/80 74/80 74/80 74/80 76/80 450 SMOH
LE Comps 72/80 72/80 76/80 76/80 72/80 72/80 1750 SMOH
3. Complied with SB CE-04-88 Inspection of Tail torque tube
4. Installed new mag bearings & gaskets on left engine
5. Reinstalled shims on flap torque tube
6. Installed one piece windshield (group effort, about 15 A&P hours)
7. Installed new left engine alternator belt, required pulling the
prop... owners did this
8. Installed new Hyd., Air, and Vacuum Filters... owners did this
9. Cleaned fuel injectors... owners did this
10. C/W all AD's
11. Annual Inspection

Total A&P labor 39.5 hours $2172.50
Total Parts $141.55
Tax $127.27
Grand Total $2441.32

Like Jim W. pointed out, most of this is not the Inspection but needed
repairs and regular maintenance items.

Owners did all disassembly and reassembly, most of the A&P labor was for the
new windshield install, approximately 24 of the 39.5 hours. Rest of the A&P
labor was for Comp checks, helping to remove and reinstall the horz. stab.,
install mag bearings and gaskets, time mags, install flap torque tube shims,
re-build flap actuator arm guide, annual inspection, bookwork, and helping
us do miscellaneous things. Owners also did the engine wash-downs, engine
oil/filter changes, all lubing, and repacking the wheel bearings.

Jim

[[email protected]]

Free labor from the mechanic's apprentice, eh?

You're lucky... my A&P /IA makes _me_ do all the grunt work myself,
plus I have to pay for all the beer after the plane is put back
together, signed off and test flown.

Mike Granby wrote:
> > The apprentence's labor comes without charge
>
> A bargain, I would say.

[Charles Talleyrand]

>> It seems some Cessna 150 owners have been finding cracks in the
>> vertical tail attach bracket.

>It seems the FAA thinks the same thing, since they issued an Airworthiness
>Directive in 1980 for that same problem. See AD 80-11-04.

I do wonder if we are mis-understanding each other. The inspection i'm
trying to describe was according to the A&P an optional inspection, and
a new one. He's normally on the ball.

>> Several repetitive AD inspections checked
>> New oil and filter

>Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

>> Spark plugs cleaned and gapped

>Had nothing to do with the annual INSPECTION.

Yes, technically you are right. However, almost everyone describes the
inspection and the repair as "the annual". And this is a useful bit of
speach. And you've already made this point several times over the
years. And if you really want to be technical, I didn't say "annual
inspection" I just said "annual". But I think you are being picky for
no reason.

[[email protected]]

I'm going in on Monday (25th) for my 7th annual . . . '67 C-172-H.
I will do everything owner is permitted to do (as I have for the last 5
years).

Will report results here when complete. I fly about 125 hrs a year,
and at least once a week, often 3 times.

We shall see.

www.Rosspilot.com

[Darrel Toepfer]

Jim Burns wrote:

> Total A&P labor 39.5 hours $2172.50
> Total Parts $141.55
> Tax $127.27
> Grand Total $2441.32

Taxed on labor? geez what a scam...

[RST Engineering]

> I do wonder if we are mis-understanding each other. The inspection i'm
> trying to describe was according to the A&P an optional inspection, and
> a new one. He's normally on the ball.

No, I don't think so. It is impossible to do the inspection on that AD
without seeing the whole attach bracket. If your mechanic wants to do a dye
penetrant check, that is between you and (s)he.


> Yes, technically you are right. However, almost everyone describes the
> inspection and the repair as "the annual".

That is because over the years, shops have conditioned the owners to
thinking that the "annual" (which is nowhere defined WITHOUT the word
"inspection" attached) is the time to cover the owner's vacation in Hawaii
with a bit put aside for the kid's college fund. It would appear that you
have been so conditioned.



And this is a useful bit of
> speach.

Useful bit of speech for WHO?


And you've already made this point several times over the
> years.

And I will continue to make it.


And if you really want to be technical, I didn't say "annual
> inspection" I just said "annual". But I think you are being picky for
> no reason.

Your call. I reiterate, there is no such thing as an "annual".


Jim

[Jim Burns]

Welcome to Wisconsin.

Section 77.52(2), Wis. Stats. (2003-04),

provides that, for the privilege of selling, performing, or

furnishing certain services at retail in Wisconsin to consumers

or users, a tax is imposed upon all persons

selling, performing, or furnishing the services at the rate

of 5% of the gross receipts from the sale, performance,

or furnishing of the services.

Services subject to Wisconsin sales tax include the following

(this list is not all-inclusive):

.. The repair, service, alteration, fitting, cleaning,

painting, coating, towing, inspection, and maintenance

of all items of tangible personal property

unless:

performed on a tax exempt property or as a capital improvement.

Sucks don't it?

Jim

[john smith]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> Taxed on labor? geez what a scam...

Ohio taxes services, also.
I even pay tax on my flying club dues.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"RST Engineering" > wrote:

> And if you really want to be technical, I didn't say "annual
> > inspection" I just said "annual". But I think you are being picky for
> > no reason.
>
> Your call. I reiterate, there is no such thing as an "annual".

Sure there is. The popular usage of the term "annual" is that
fun time of year when an annual inspection occurs, plus all those
repairs, service, and improvements made to the airplane.
Not to mention the "while-we-are-at-it" things.

Good luck trying to eliminate the phrase "annual" from the owner's
vocabulary. You'd have better luck getting people to properly
use "methodology" and "methods."

:-)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[RST Engineering]

Well, then, this year's "annual" cost me:

$550 for the cylinder inspection and repair/replacement of the exhaust valve
and a ring set
$350 for the muffler replacement
$190 for the muffler shroud repair
$125 for the wash/wax job
$150 for what I would have charged me for the "annual"

But how much of this is "annual inspection"? $150. I could have done all
that other stuff any time during the year. As you say, it was a hell of a
lot more convenient while the airplane was apart, but it isn't part of the
annual inspection.

Not to mention vacuuming the rugs and painting the dings and the prop.

Jim


> Sure there is. The popular usage of the term "annual" is that
> fun time of year when an annual inspection occurs, plus all those
> repairs, service, and improvements made to the airplane.
> Not to mention the "while-we-are-at-it" things.

[George Patterson]

wrote:
>
> You're lucky... my A&P /IA makes _me_ do all the grunt work myself,
> plus I have to pay for all the beer after the plane is put back
> together, signed off and test flown.

There are shops in this area that make you do all the grunt work and then charge
you shop rates for your own labor.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[George Patterson]

john smith wrote:
>
> Ohio taxes services, also.

Same in NJ. IIRC, same in TN and GA.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Bob Noel wrote:

> Sure there is. The popular usage of the term "annual" is that
> fun time of year when an annual inspection occurs, plus all those
> repairs, service, and improvements made to the airplane.
> Not to mention the "while-we-are-at-it" things.

Its that time of the year where you get him to sign off all the stuff
you've done...

[Charles Talleyrand]

>That is because over the years, shops have conditioned the owners to
>thinking that the "annual" (which is nowhere defined WITHOUT the word
>"inspection" attached) is the time to cover the owner's vacation in Hawaii
>with a bit put aside for the kid's college fund. It would appear that you
>have been so conditioned.

I dunno. I have never to my knowledge been ripped off during
the-thing-I-call-an-annual. My most recent one was $800,
and that's pretty average. I don't think the mechanic is
going to Hawaii on this money.

Our airport only has the one mechanic, and the next closest
airport with a mechanic is fifty miles away. We pilots
and this mechanic know each other well, and every pilot
I've talked to who has used him has been reasonably happy
or better.

[Dave Stadt]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> Welcome to Wisconsin.
>
> Section 77.52(2), Wis. Stats. (2003-04),
>
> provides that, for the privilege of selling, performing, or
>
> furnishing certain services at retail in Wisconsin to consumers
>
> or users, a tax is imposed upon all persons
>
> selling, performing, or furnishing the services at the rate
>
> of 5% of the gross receipts from the sale, performance,
>
> or furnishing of the services.
>
> Services subject to Wisconsin sales tax include the following
>
> (this list is not all-inclusive):
>
> . The repair, service, alteration, fitting, cleaning,
>
> painting, coating, towing, inspection, and maintenance
>
> of all items of tangible personal property
>
> unless:
>
> performed on a tax exempt property or as a capital improvement.
>
> Sucks don't it?

Especially in light of WIs other outrageous tax rates.

>
> Jim
>
>
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "RST Engineering" > wrote:
>
> > And if you really want to be technical, I didn't say "annual
> > > inspection" I just said "annual". But I think you are being picky for
> > > no reason.
> >
> > Your call. I reiterate, there is no such thing as an "annual".
>
> Sure there is. The popular usage of the term "annual" is that
> fun time of year when an annual inspection occurs, plus all those
> repairs, service, and improvements made to the airplane.
> Not to mention the "while-we-are-at-it" things.
>
> Good luck trying to eliminate the phrase "annual" from the owner's
> vocabulary. You'd have better luck getting people to properly
> use "methodology" and "methods."
>
> :-)
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> no one likes an educated mule

If an IA uses more than a flashlight, mirror, pen and checklist in doing my
annual inspection he gets booted out of the hangar. A 'annual' to many has
become an open invitation for the IA to write in any amount he feels
necessary on the owners check.

[Dave Stadt]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:08_Be.663$Zx3.585@trndny05...
> wrote:
> >
> > You're lucky... my A&P /IA makes _me_ do all the grunt work myself,
> > plus I have to pay for all the beer after the plane is put back
> > together, signed off and test flown.
>
> There are shops in this area that make you do all the grunt work and then
charge
> you shop rates for your own labor.

Sad thing is there are owners that put up with it.

> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

[Margy]

George Patterson wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>
>> You're lucky... my A&P /IA makes _me_ do all the grunt work myself,
>> plus I have to pay for all the beer after the plane is put back
>> together, signed off and test flown.
>
>
> There are shops in this area that make you do all the grunt work and
> then charge you shop rates for your own labor.

My annual inspection is flat fee (a lot more than Weir would charge!)
and the mechanic teases that she doesn't charge more when the owners
help :-). I think she actually spends more time when the owners do help
as she explains everything and teaches at least one new task a year.
After a few years the savings start to add up not with the cost of the
inspection, but with the costs of the repairs/improvements made at the
time. When we put in a new ELT, which included fabricating a bracket
and running wires for the new remote switch the only charge from the
mechanic was for the paperwork compliance.

Margy
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

[[email protected]]

Well, not such good news :-(

My #5 cylinder compression was only 57 . . . so my mechanic did what he
called "staking the valve" . . . by rapping on it with a plastic mallet
while checking the compression gage. No improvement.
The exhaust valve is not seating properly so we have to pull the
cylinder and either send it out for repair or exchange for another one
.. . .
Any comments or suggestions as to which course of action is better?

[nrp]

wrote:
> Well, not such good news :-(
>
> My #5 cylinder compression was only 57 . . . so my mechanic did what he
> called "staking the valve" . . . by rapping on it with a plastic mallet
> while checking the compression gage. No improvement.
> The exhaust valve is not seating properly so we have to pull the
> cylinder and either send it out for repair or exchange for another one
> . . .
> Any comments or suggestions as to which course of action is better?

[nrp]

Check the calibrations on that compression gage (assuming you are
loooking for 60/80 psi?). Fly the airplane for 10 hours and check the
compression on that cylinder again. Lots of times our 172M wouldn't
quite make compression & but then it would 10 hours later on a recheck.

This assumes you don't have a problem with excessive oil consumption or
fouling.

[George Patterson]

wrote:
> . . .
> Any comments or suggestions as to which course of action is better?

I've always felt that repairing my cylinder was the way to go, but I'm not sure
I'm right. I had to do one of the cylinders in my old 150 twice in less than two
hundred hours time. I've just always felt uneasy about swapping mine for someone
else's repair job.

These days I might opt for new from an outfit like Superior.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Robert M. Gary]

After 5 years of Mooney ownership my average bill for annual is $7000.
The inspection fee runs about $2500 itself.

-Robert

[Mike Spera]

The delta between new and overhauled is very close if you need an
exhaust valve. Unless the cylinder has 50 hours or less, you need a new
piston. You always need new rings and gaskets. If your exhaust valve is
leaking, chances are it will not "seat" in 10-20 more hours. So it is
likely you will need a new one. Add it all up and you are within a
couple of hundred bucks of a sparkling new one.

I have learned my lesson on overhauled cylinders. Since I run P10s
(overbored .010 oversized), I am always getting "first run" cylinders
(the shop won't ground over anything other than first run). I have still
had problems. Non P10s could have several runs on them. Too much of a
crap shoot for me.

Repairing your jugs requires way too much down time. I want to have the
new one in hand before we remove bolt 1. That way, it is a simple 4 hour
swap with no surprises.

Good Luck,
Mike
>
>
> I've always felt that repairing my cylinder was the way to go, but I'm
> not sure I'm right. I had to do one of the cylinders in my old 150 twice
> in less than two hundred hours time. I've just always felt uneasy about
> swapping mine for someone else's repair job.
>
> These days I might opt for new from an outfit like Superior.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Harvey]

Wow! Is this what others are paying for annuals? I haven't owned a plane for
in excess of 10 years now, but my 182 was between $1,000 - $1,500, for what
I considered a pretty thourough annual. I could have had them done for less.

Has this cost really gone up that much? I know the Mooney is retractable,
etc., but still. How much would I be paying for my 182 if I still had it?

Harvey

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> After 5 years of Mooney ownership my average bill for annual is $7000.
> The inspection fee runs about $2500 itself.
>
> -Robert
>