Buying questions - which plane?

[John Doe]

Ok,

First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.

I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
pro/con on these:

Commanche 250 or 260
Commander 114
Mooney M20J
Socata TB20 Trinidad

Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.

We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus weekend
bags (100lbs max).

My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I am
performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary fields is
a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into the teens
if needed to get over minor w/x.

Any advice would be appreciated.

tks.

[Jon Kraus]

If you want speed you better get the Mooney... 155 kts @ 10gph

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ

John Doe wrote:
> Ok,
>
> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>
> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
> pro/con on these:
>
> Commanche 250 or 260
> Commander 114
> Mooney M20J
> Socata TB20 Trinidad
>
> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
> performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>
> We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus weekend
> bags (100lbs max).
>
> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I am
> performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary fields is
> a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into the teens
> if needed to get over minor w/x.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> tks.
>
>
>

[Ray Bengen]

Comanche 260B, very hard to beat all round especially for the price.

Great payload, I take full fuel 90 gals, 165 knots, bags, golf clubs etc,
nonstop NYC to Fort Lauderdale if I want to.

Worth a look.

Ray

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:33:33 GMT, John Doe > wrote:

> Ok,
>
> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>
> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
> pro/con on these:
>
> Commanche 250 or 260
> Commander 114
> Mooney M20J
> Socata TB20 Trinidad
>
> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
> performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>
> We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus
> weekend
> bags (100lbs max).
>
> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as
> I am
> performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary fields
> is
> a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into the
> teens
> if needed to get over minor w/x.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> tks.
>
>
>



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

[Kyle Boatright]

"John Doe" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Ok,
>
> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>
> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
> pro/con on these:
>
> Commanche 250 or 260
> Commander 114
> Mooney M20J
> Socata TB20 Trinidad
>
> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
> performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>
> We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus weekend
> bags (100lbs max).
>
> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I
> am performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary
> fields is a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into
> the teens if needed to get over minor w/x.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> tks.

How good are the approaches into the grass field? Unless they are pretty
good, it won't be comfortable going into or out of that field in the
Commanche, Commander, or Mooney unless you're fairly light. Even then,
you'll need to be on your game, particularly on landing. I don't know about
the Trinidad.

If I was looking at your mission, I'd be thinking C-182, C-182 RG, or C-206,
if only for the short field performance with a decent load...

KB

[Bob Noel]

In article t>,
"John Doe" > wrote:

> Ok,
>
> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>
> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
> pro/con on these:
>
> Commanche 250 or 260

A couple of things to consider wrt the Commanche

1) Will you be comfortable with (iirc) one fuel gauge that you
need to switch to each of the four tanks to read?

2) Not a lot of room behind the instrument panel for avionics
(at least that's what my avionics shop told me a number of years
ago)

Don't get me wrong, I almost bought a really sweet 260C but
then 9/11 happened - kind of changed my perspective on
the viability of putting that much money into an airplane.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc.
>

Well, in that case: Cirrus? Lancair?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dave Butler]

John Doe wrote:

>
> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I am
> performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary fields is
> a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into the teens
> if needed to get over minor w/x.

I'm a M20J owner and big fan of the model, and it will meet your speed
requirements, but for flying off grass, the field had better be smooth. The gear
doors hang down so low that you're going to munch one the first time you drop
one of the main gear into a small hole.

Dave

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[Darrel Toepfer]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Well, in that case: Cirrus? Lancair?

Certified Lancair is now called "Columbia", Lancair is now the name of
the kitplane line...

[Maule Driver]

Seems like the 2500' grass is a major gating factor in this one.

Perhaps add a 'Bo to the consideration and definitely the big Cessnas.

The really difficult is to making accurate assessment of your needs and
the priorities. For example, my mission profile has changed
considerably over 8 years as my "primary fields" have too. In
retrospect, the only part of my mission that hasn't changed has been my
home field. Everything else can change and compromises made given the
a/c I have.

John Doe wrote:
> Ok,
>
> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>
> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
> pro/con on these:
>
> Commanche 250 or 260
> Commander 114
> Mooney M20J
> Socata TB20 Trinidad
>
> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
> performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>
> We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus weekend
> bags (100lbs max).
>
> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I am
> performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary fields is
> a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into the teens
> if needed to get over minor w/x.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> tks.
>
>
>

[Doug]

You seem to want a low wing. Bonanza's do pretty good on rough and
short fields. Mooney's don't. Another piece of advice. Get it equipped
with the avionics you will be happy with. IFR GPS and autopilot.
Upgrading avionics is expensive and you don't get the money back at
sale.

For high wing a Cessna 182 is hard to beat. The RG's do ok on grass.
Gear is an anethema, but if you want to go fast, you need it.

If you are going to go up high, you are going to have to have oxygen
for everyone. Kind of a hassle. Pressurized is the way to go, but it's
BIG bucks. But a pressurized Bonanza would do everything you specify,
if you have the money.

[John Doe]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Doe" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> Ok,
>>
>> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>>
>> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
>> pro/con on these:
>>
>> Commanche 250 or 260
>> Commander 114
>> Mooney M20J
>> Socata TB20 Trinidad
>>
>> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
>> performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>>
>> We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus
>> weekend bags (100lbs max).
>>
>> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I
>> am performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary
>> fields is a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up
>> into the teens if needed to get over minor w/x.
>>
>> Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>> tks.
>
> How good are the approaches into the grass field? Unless they are pretty
> good, it won't be comfortable going into or out of that field in the
> Commanche, Commander, or Mooney unless you're fairly light. Even then,
> you'll need to be on your game, particularly on landing. I don't know
> about the Trinidad.
>
> If I was looking at your mission, I'd be thinking C-182, C-182 RG, or
> C-206, if only for the short field performance with a decent load...
>
> KB

KB,

Very good points. I've flown into the field several times and am
comfortable landing. Takeoff, I just need to get off the ground without too
excessive of a ground roll in the summertime. Would like to carry enough
fuel to make a 350nm trip with standard reserves.

[John Doe]

"John Doe" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Ok,
>
> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>
> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
> pro/con on these:
>
> Commanche 250 or 260
> Commander 114
> Mooney M20J
> Socata TB20 Trinidad
>
> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
> performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>
> We will normally be loaded with myself, wife and son (400lbs) Plus weekend
> bags (100lbs max).
>
> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I
> am performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary
> fields is a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up into
> the teens if needed to get over minor w/x.

One addition: Short field Take off performance desired is to load the plane
with the family (as above) and carry enough fuel for a 350nm trip plus
standard reserves.

tks

[John Doe]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article t>,
> "John Doe" > wrote:
>
>> Ok,
>>
>> First time plane buyer, I've been looking for some time now.
>>
>> I've narrowed it down to a few, looking for some big picture comments
>> pro/con on these:
>>
>> Commanche 250 or 260
>
> A couple of things to consider wrt the Commanche
>
> 1) Will you be comfortable with (iirc) one fuel gauge that you
> need to switch to each of the four tanks to read?
>
> 2) Not a lot of room behind the instrument panel for avionics
> (at least that's what my avionics shop told me a number of years
> ago)

1) Unless they're known for uncommanded fuel venting or leaks, I don't have
a problem with that. I've done it before in other aircraft.

2) The one I'm looking at is allready completely loaded IFR/GPS/AP. Not
much more I think I could add to it, but it will be something I look at
before I buy.

Thanks.

[John Doe]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> John,
>
>> Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc.
>>
>
> Well, in that case: Cirrus? Lancair?


I've looked at both of those and a Columbia 400 is at the top of my list,
trust me. Just can't afford the sticker price. I just didn't want folks to
start writing about market prices of used airplanes on this thread.

I was flying XC on Wed and I heard a Lancair on the radio and I had to wipe
the drool off my mouth.

[John Doe]

"Dave Butler" <x@yy> wrote in message
...
> John Doe wrote:
>
>>
>> My wife wants speed, speed, speed. I'm not as concerned about speed as I
>> am performance. I need short field performace as one of our primary
>> fields is a 2500' grass strip at 2000' DA. I'd also like to climb up
>> into the teens if needed to get over minor w/x.
>
> I'm a M20J owner and big fan of the model, and it will meet your speed
> requirements, but for flying off grass, the field had better be smooth.
> The gear doors hang down so low that you're going to munch one the first
> time you drop one of the main gear into a small hole.


Thanks Dave, I am too. I've got about 400 hours in Mooneys and always
enjoyed it. I've looked at a couple of M20J and they're in the running.

[John Doe]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
. com...
> Seems like the 2500' grass is a major gating factor in this one.
>
> Perhaps add a 'Bo to the consideration and definitely the big Cessnas.
>
> The really difficult is to making accurate assessment of your needs and
> the priorities. For example, my mission profile has changed considerably
> over 8 years as my "primary fields" have too. In retrospect, the only
> part of my mission that hasn't changed has been my home field. Everything
> else can change and compromises made given the a/c I have.

You're right. The good news is, about 5nm away from the grass strip is a
5500' paved. I sure would like to land on the grass though.

[B. Jensen]

John Doe wrote:

>Ok,
>
>Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
>performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>
If cost isn't a factor, buy a Cirrus.

BJ

[Mark Hansen]

On 7/22/2005 09:08, B. Jensen wrote:

>
> John Doe wrote:
>
>>Ok,
>>
>>Dont' care about purchase price right now, avionics, etc. Looking for
>>performance/maintenance/operating costs/issues people know of.
>>
> If cost isn't a factor, buy a Cirrus.
>
> BJ
>

English really is a strange language. What I read was that he wanted
to first consider factors other than cost, not that cost wasn't a
factor.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Mike Rapoport]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You seem to want a low wing. Bonanza's do pretty good on rough and
> short fields. Mooney's don't. Another piece of advice. Get it equipped
> with the avionics you will be happy with. IFR GPS and autopilot.
> Upgrading avionics is expensive and you don't get the money back at
> sale.
>
> For high wing a Cessna 182 is hard to beat. The RG's do ok on grass.
> Gear is an anethema, but if you want to go fast, you need it.
>
> If you are going to go up high, you are going to have to have oxygen
> for everyone. Kind of a hassle. Pressurized is the way to go, but it's
> BIG bucks. But a pressurized Bonanza would do everything you specify,
> if you have the money.
>

I wasn't aware that there was any such thing as a pressurized Bonanza.

Mike
MU-2

[Nathan Young]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:09:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>
>"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> You seem to want a low wing. Bonanza's do pretty good on rough and
>> short fields. Mooney's don't. Another piece of advice. Get it equipped
>> with the avionics you will be happy with. IFR GPS and autopilot.
>> Upgrading avionics is expensive and you don't get the money back at
>> sale.
>>
>> For high wing a Cessna 182 is hard to beat. The RG's do ok on grass.
>> Gear is an anethema, but if you want to go fast, you need it.
>>
>> If you are going to go up high, you are going to have to have oxygen
>> for everyone. Kind of a hassle. Pressurized is the way to go, but it's
>> BIG bucks. But a pressurized Bonanza would do everything you specify,
>> if you have the money.
>>
>
>I wasn't aware that there was any such thing as a pressurized Bonanza.

How about a P-Baron with one engine caged?

[Paul kgyy]

Buy the 2-volume Airplane Buyer's Guide from Aviation Consumer. Well
worth the $75 or so considering how much you can lose with a bad
decision.

High level pros/cons of just about any older GA airplane currently
available.

For new, I'd consider the pressurized Columbia 400 or Lanceair IVP -
check out TAP for used models available. But now you're getting up in
the $$$$ price levels.

[Allen]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> I wasn't aware that there was any such thing as a pressurized Bonanza.
>
> Mike
> MU-2

Beechcraft did build two prototype turbine powered pressurized single engine
airplanes. They called it the "Lightning 38P" and one of the prototypes did
go into flight testing on June 14, 1982. The project was scrapped because
it was deemed economically unfeasible. I think if they had developed it
years later it would have had a market. The prototype was being advertised
for sale last year for $300,000, no engine or instrumentation.

Allen

[Thomas Borchert]

Paul,

> I'd consider the pressurized Columbia 400
>

Which pressurized Columbia 400? There is no such thing. The 400 is
turbocharged.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Newps]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Paul,
>
>
>>I'd consider the pressurized Columbia 400
>>
>
>
> Which pressurized Columbia 400?

The six cylinder thingies.

[Thomas Borchert]

Newps,

> > Which pressurized Columbia 400?
>
> The six cylinder thingies.
>

Huh? There is NO pressurized version of the Columbia aircraft.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Peter R.]

Thomas Borchert > wrote:

>>> Which pressurized Columbia 400?
>>
>> The six cylinder thingies.
>>
>
> Huh? There is NO pressurized version of the Columbia aircraft.

Perhaps someone is confusing this with the Lancair IV? An aviation
acquaintance of mine is seriously considering purchasing a pressurized IV.

--
Peter


















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[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

> Perhaps someone is confusing this with the Lancair IV?
>

this was the OP:

"For new, I'd consider the pressurized Columbia 400 or Lanceair IVP -
check out TAP for used models available. But now you're getting up in
the $$$$ price levels."

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)