prop seal

[Jim Burns]

Well, after only putting 12 hours on our Aztec since our annual, we've got a
bad prop seal on our left prop. The prop shop is overbooked until OSH is
over, so we've got it scheduled to go in Aug. 3. (One side benefit is that
while the prop is gone we'll have time to put in our new side windows! :)

The prop has 985 hours since overhaul, 8 years ago, with a recommended TBO
of 2400 hours or 6 years.

What happened? Most likely we over greased it at annual and then last
Sunday in 98 degree heat, the pressures in the prop were high enough and the
grease was thin enough to leak past the weak seal. We knew the seals were
weak, as there was a slight amount of grease at the roots of the blades, but
now it's being flung out over 3/4 of the length of the blades.

A couple of interesting things that we've learned.

1) For aluminum hubs, Hartzell no longer recommends simply pulling one
grease zirt then pumping grease into the hub until it exits the open zirt
hole. Now they recommend to pull one zirt and pump grease until it either
begins to exit the open zirt hole or after adding a maximum of 1oz of fresh
grease, whichever comes first. It's still important to remove on zirt from
each side of the hub before adding grease to prevent pressure from building
in the hub.

Why? Our prop shop says that they've been getting at least 2-3 props per
month that are still under warranty that have been over-greased and the
seals have blown. They say that they've been complaining to Hartzell about
the old greasing procedure for years, and they've finally addressed it.

2) Another thing that we learned is about Hartzell's recommendation to use
Aeroshell #6 grease. Our guys say that in warmer temperatures, it's simply
too thin, they absolutely cuss at it. For most GA piston engine airplanes,
our shop says they normally use Aeroshell #5 even though it's prohibited
from use at temperatures below -41F (placarding required). Hartzell uses #6
because it is a more "general purpose" grease, has a broader temperature
spectrum, and without knowing specifically the area their props will
operate, they feel it covers the most bases. I don't know about you, but we
rarely fly in temps below -41.

The shop we're using, Maxwell Aircraft, has been in the propeller business
since the 1940's, so they should have enough experience to know what they're
talking about.

Any comments or experience is greatly appreciated.

Jim

[Jack Allison]

Very educational post Jim. Upon consulting Google, they're really
"Zerk" or "Zirk" fittings. Unless, of course, on an airplane, they're
just named something else so they can be more expensive. Ok, so it's a
minor point... :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jim Burns]

Yep, you're right Jack, "t"s just cost wayyyyy more than "k"s! They'd
always been Zerks to me until I worked around a guy on the farm that always
called them zirt's, in fact come to think of it, he actually called them
"certs". It got to be an inside joke, he never new what we were laughing at
or why we made fun of his grease certs. I guess he beat into my brain...
incorrectly I might add! Funny how I picked that up. Grease fittings...
how 'bout them there things? :)

Cya Wednesday, hey, remember to fly lower than Jim.... I don't want to hear
that your airplanes tried to mate or anything!
Jim Burns

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:29:29 -0500, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:

>Well, after only putting 12 hours on our Aztec since our annual, we've got a
>bad prop seal on our left prop. The prop shop is overbooked until OSH is
>over, so we've got it scheduled to go in Aug. 3. (One side benefit is that
>while the prop is gone we'll have time to put in our new side windows! :)
>
>The prop has 985 hours since overhaul, 8 years ago, with a recommended TBO
>of 2400 hours or 6 years.

It would be a good thing to get in there and take a peek. I've always
recommended a re-seal/look-see at 5 years (then 6 when they started
painting the inside of the hubs). Have personally seen too many
corroded "H" hubs.

>What happened? Most likely we over greased it at annual and then last
>Sunday in 98 degree heat, the pressures in the prop were high enough and the
>grease was thin enough to leak past the weak seal. We knew the seals were
>weak, as there was a slight amount of grease at the roots of the blades, but
>now it's being flung out over 3/4 of the length of the blades.

Normally there shouldn't be even a slight amount.

>A couple of interesting things that we've learned.
>
>1) For aluminum hubs, Hartzell no longer recommends simply pulling one
>grease zirt then pumping grease into the hub until it exits the open zirt
>hole. Now they recommend to pull one zirt and pump grease until it either
>begins to exit the open zirt hole or after adding a maximum of 1oz of fresh
>grease, whichever comes first. It's still important to remove on zirt from
>each side of the hub before adding grease to prevent pressure from building
>in the hub.

That has been the "official" procedure for quite some time. Depending
on the utilization of the plane the prop is bolted to, you may truly
need to pump enuff grease to flush out the nasty stuff. Internal
corrosion in the bearing cavity (where the grease lives) is a big
problem with compact hub H's. Having the inside of the hub painted
helps but...

The trick is to add the grease s-l-o-w-l-y and not to use a pneumatic
powered grease gun. If the grease coming out doesn't look like the
grease going in, pump until it does.

>Why? Our prop shop says that they've been getting at least 2-3 props per
>month that are still under warranty that have been over-greased and the
>seals have blown. They say that they've been complaining to Hartzell about
>the old greasing procedure for years, and they've finally addressed it.

I know it was in the "book" 5+ years ago (had a sister company across
the ramp that was a prop shop). People have been popping grease seals
for years and years, and will continue to do so.

The bearing cavity for each blade should be full of clean grease. A
new or overhauled H propeller requires topping off with grease after
it's placed into service. Especially if you are going to dy-bal.

>2) Another thing that we learned is about Hartzell's recommendation to use
>Aeroshell #6 grease. Our guys say that in warmer temperatures, it's simply
>too thin, they absolutely cuss at it. For most GA piston engine airplanes,
>our shop says they normally use Aeroshell #5 even though it's prohibited
>from use at temperatures below -41F (placarding required). Hartzell uses #6
>because it is a more "general purpose" grease, has a broader temperature
>spectrum, and without knowing specifically the area their props will
>operate, they feel it covers the most bases. I don't know about you, but we
>rarely fly in temps below -41.

Remember the switch to #6 quite well, had #5 aircraft in the fleet as
well as #6, was hard to keep track (even with the little sticker).
Never had an issue with #6 being "too thin".

>The shop we're using, Maxwell Aircraft, has been in the propeller business
>since the 1940's, so they should have enough experience to know what they're
>talking about.

I don't know squat about overhauling propellers, but I've allegedly
maintained a bunch of them (on personal and "working" aircraft). I
learned a lot more about what works and what doesn't periodic
maintenance-wise when the old boss bought the prop shop. A good
guesstimate would be that I averaged greasing a pair of compact hub
H's a week for 15 years. That isn't counting steel hubs, just
compacts.

>Any comments or experience is greatly appreciated.

BTW, on the 135 aircraft, we cycled H props through mandatory overhaul
about every 2-3 years (before they stretched the TBO from 2000 hrs).
I've been out of the business for awhile, am assuming that they still
roll some types of blades during o-haul. It's a real bitch when you've
got a set of blades that meet/exceed every spec but are under the min.
diameter because rolling (and polishing to remove the roll marks) put
them under the min.

All these props (first with #5, then with #6) had nasty grease pumped
out of 'em-and fresh grease pumped in every 100 hrs (usually 6-8
weeks). Never had corrosion issues, had very very very very few grease
leaks at the hub. Did have a zerk ball stick very now and then-makes a
mess.

Regards;

TC

[Jay Honeck]

> All these props (first with #5, then with #6) had nasty grease pumped
> out of 'em-and fresh grease pumped in every 100 hrs (usually 6-8
> weeks). Never had corrosion issues, had very very very very few grease
> leaks at the hub.

Hey TC, when should we be overhauling our props?

Mine is getting up there in years/time, but my A&P believes that if it ain't
leaking, and everything is functioning properly, there is no reason to mess
with it.

True?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

Thanks TC.
Another item Maxwell mentioned is that they often see the teflon quad seals
failing strictly due to an age. Their theory is that they are simply
getting old and brittle after 7 or 8 years. Now they've been replaceing
them with "O" rings that retain their softness longer.
Jim

[Jim Burns]

Interesting stuff here Jay if yours is a Hartzell.

http://www.hartzellprop.com/product_support/support_faqs.htm

Jim

[ORVAL FAIRAIRN]

In article >,
"Jim Burns" > wrote:

> Yep, you're right Jack, "t"s just cost wayyyyy more than "k"s! They'd
> always been Zerks to me until I worked around a guy on the farm that always
> called them zirt's, in fact come to think of it, he actually called them
> "certs". It got to be an inside joke, he never new what we were laughing at
> or why we made fun of his grease certs. I guess he beat into my brain...
> incorrectly I might add! Funny how I picked that up. Grease fittings...
> how 'bout them there things? :)
>
> Cya Wednesday, hey, remember to fly lower than Jim.... I don't want to hear
> that your airplanes tried to mate or anything!
> Jim Burns


They are called "zerks" because their inventor was Mr. Zerk.

[Jim Burns]

Yep, you're right. And he was even from Wisconsin, something I never heard
before.
http://www.kenoshacounty.com/in_the_news/yesterday/biographies/article_detail.php?article_number=32

Jim

[Roy Page]

Where I come from Zerks are called Grease Nipples, no one there would know
what a Zerk was.
Probably would think you said Jerk !
They wouldn't understand wrench, hood, trunk, faucet and a load of other
words either :-)

Roy

"ORVAL FAIRAIRN" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Jim Burns" > wrote:
>
>> Yep, you're right Jack, "t"s just cost wayyyyy more than "k"s! They'd
>> always been Zerks to me until I worked around a guy on the farm that
>> always
>> called them zirt's, in fact come to think of it, he actually called them
>> "certs". It got to be an inside joke, he never new what we were laughing
>> at
>> or why we made fun of his grease certs. I guess he beat into my
>> brain...
>> incorrectly I might add! Funny how I picked that up. Grease fittings...
>> how 'bout them there things? :)
>>
>> Cya Wednesday, hey, remember to fly lower than Jim.... I don't want to
>> hear
>> that your airplanes tried to mate or anything!
>> Jim Burns
>
>
> They are called "zerks" because their inventor was Mr. Zerk.

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:21:41 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> All these props (first with #5, then with #6) had nasty grease pumped
>> out of 'em-and fresh grease pumped in every 100 hrs (usually 6-8
>> weeks). Never had corrosion issues, had very very very very few grease
>> leaks at the hub.
>
>Hey TC, when should we be overhauling our props?
>
>Mine is getting up there in years/time, but my A&P believes that if it ain't
>leaking, and everything is functioning properly, there is no reason to mess
>with it.
>
>True?

You need to find a "friendly" prop shop that will split the hub, do a
very general inspection-looking for corrosion or other very bad
things-replace all the seals and put it back together with a re-seal
sign-off. I would recommend every 6-8 years.

The trick is not to let anything expensive get corroded/worn beyond
limits. Prop overhaul is pretty much like engine overhaul when you're
flying Pt 91. You definitely don't need to follow the mfg's TBO, but
you can't ignore it (engine or prop) completely.

TC

[Jay Honeck]

> You need to find a "friendly" prop shop that will split the hub, do a
> very general inspection-looking for corrosion or other very bad
> things-replace all the seals and put it back together with a re-seal
> sign-off.

What, in your recommendation, is a "friendly" prop shop.

Heck, I can't even name a prop shop -- period -- let alone a "friendly" one!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"