IFR student: circling approach struggles

[xyzzy]

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

[Michael 182]

"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...

>
> Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
> up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
> final.

It might help to give up the base leg and just make a 180 turn from
downwind.

Michael

[Mike Rapoport]

If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that
will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973'
which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This
should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis
minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of
the speed. Slow down.

Mike
MU-2


"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
> All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
> degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
> and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>
> Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
> up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
> final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than
> the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to
> do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly
> lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a
> result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have
> always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with
> plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing
> that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet
> AGL.
>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 7/22/2005 12:10, xyzzy wrote:

> All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
> degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
> years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>
> Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
> lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
> turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
> lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
> called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
> and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
> to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
> final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
> coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
> having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
> slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.
>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>

I can't imagine it would be OK to allow an uncoordinated turn.

I have the same problems. It really feels unnatural. However, when I'm
far enough from the runway in the downwind leg, the turns work out ok,
although there isn't much time on the base leg. Basically I level the
wings, verify that I can see the runway, and then begin my descent and
turn to final.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Yossarian]

As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
is your circling airspeed?

I got my instrument rating a month ago and at no point did I have to
practice slipping turns. Doesn't sound like the right way to address
the problem.

xyzzy wrote:

>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

[xyzzy]

Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind
tight, maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling
into the 30 degree bank fast enough.

Re: slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank
and slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
> turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that
> will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973'
> which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This
> should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis
> minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of
> the speed. Slow down.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "xyzzy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
>>degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
>>and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>>
>>Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
>>keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
>>up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
>>final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than
>>the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to
>>do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly
>>lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a
>>result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have
>>always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with
>>plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing
>>that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet
>>AGL.
>>
>>Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
>>you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
>>slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>>
>
>
>

[xyzzy]

Yossarian wrote:

> As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
> is your circling airspeed?

Flying a piper warrior, usually at 80 knots by then. As Mike R. said, I
may be keeping the downwind too tight.

[Matt Whiting]

xyzzy wrote:

> All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
> degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
> years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>
> Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
> lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
> turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
> lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
> called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
> and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
> to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
> final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
> coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
> having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
> slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.
>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>

No, but then I never was told during my primary training that 30 degrees
was a bank limit. :-) One advantage of learning to fly from an
old-timer instructor.

Seriously, when flying at reasonable speeds (80K or so) for most light
airplanes, I've never found excessive banks to be needed to fly a
circling approach. How fast are you coming down final?


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

xyzzy wrote:

> Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind
> tight, maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling
> into the 30 degree bank fast enough.
>
> Re: slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank
> and slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high.

You can descend during the turn and still keep the turn coordinated.


Matt

[Michael]

Something way wrong is happening in your training.

First, read what Mike Rapoport wrote - it's correct and I won't repeat
it.

Second, what exactly are you using to estimate distance from the runway
on downwind? You should be about 3000-4000 ft away from the runway on
downwind. Any tighter is unnecessary and undesirable.

Third, steep banks and uncoordinated maneuvers on a circling approach
are bad news. You can do whatever you want day-VFR (in gliders we
consider 45 degrees of bank in the pattern normal) but when flying at
night, with flight visibility 1 mile in mist, it's just too easy to
lose visual references and lose control. Unfortunately, you really
won't get a flavor of what a REAL circling approach (one where the vis
is close to mins) is like if all you ever do is fly under the hood on
nice days, then lift the hood and circle in good VFR. The hard part of
the circling approach to mins starts AFTER you go visual.

Fourth, your circle should be planned. By that I mean that before you
ever reach the IAF (or intercept the FAC inbound) you should already
have your ground track figured out, and you should know where the
descent begins. It begins at whatever point is necessary to maintain a
3-4 degree descent to the runway. That's about 400-500 fpm at 80 kts.
Planning anything steeper doesn't give you much in the way of options
if you find yourself high.

Michael

[Doug]

Go out and without the foggles or an instructor, do a whole bunch of
tight steep approaches and weird circle to lands. Get comfortable with
landing from lower than normal altitude. Make patterns as tight as
possible, etc. Just get comfortable with the limits of what the
airplane will do. You can SLIP all you want, just don't SKID (and you
know the difference right?). After that, you will be more comforatble
weith tight circle to lands.

[Mike Rapoport]

Slipping in a turn will greatly increase its radius. That is likely your
problem. There is also no reason that you have to end your 180 aligned with
the runway. You can overshoot to the other side and come back. It is the
same as mountain flying, use turns to lengthen the approach if you need more
distance to descend. Also you might as well fly at least a half mile from
the runway on downwind since you aren't going to be doing this with less
than a mile of vis anyway.

Mike
MU-2

"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
> Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind tight,
> maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling into the 30
> degree bank fast enough.
>
> Re: slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank and
> slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high.
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
>> If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
>> turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder)
>> that will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank
>> is 973' which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a
>> 180. This should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a
>> circling vis minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up
>> as the square of the speed. Slow down.
>>
>> Mike
>> MU-2
>>
>>
>> "xyzzy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
>>>degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
>>>and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>>>
>>>Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
>>>keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
>>>lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
>>>turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
>>>lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
>>>called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
>>>and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to
>>>unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
>>>final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
>>>coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
>>>having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
>>>slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.
>>>
>>>Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
>>>you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
>>>slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[[email protected]]

a circling approach for Category A can never have a visibility minimum of less
than 1 s.m.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
> turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder) that
> will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank is 973'
> which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a 180. This
> should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a circling vis
> minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up as the square of
> the speed. Slow down.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "xyzzy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
> > degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
> > and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
> >
> > Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> > keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
> > up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
> > final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than
> > the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to
> > do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly
> > lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a
> > result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have
> > always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with
> > plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing
> > that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet
> > AGL.
> >
> > Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> > you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> > slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
> >

[[email protected]]

Are you aware of the airspace provided for circling approaches? For CAT A
it is 1.3 nautical miles from the approach end of the runway. At an airport
with mulitple runways it can be a bit more than that, at least on downwind.
But, assume it is no greater than 1.3 nautical miles. That is a fair chunk
of airspace for a Cessna 182, or such.

xyzzy wrote:

> All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
> degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
> years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>
> Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
> lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
> turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
> lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
> called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
> and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
> to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
> final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
> coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
> having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
> slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.
>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

[xyzzy]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Slipping in a turn will greatly increase its radius. That is likely your
> problem. There is also no reason that you have to end your 180 aligned with
> the runway. You can overshoot to the other side and come back.

That's exactly what I have been doing.

[xyzzy]

Michael wrote:

> Something way wrong is happening in your training.
>
> First, read what Mike Rapoport wrote - it's correct and I won't repeat
> it.

yes it was very helpful.

>
> Second, what exactly are you using to estimate distance from the runway
> on downwind? You should be about 3000-4000 ft away from the runway on
> downwind. Any tighter is unnecessary and undesirable.

I think this may be the root of the problem, too close on downwind.
>
> Third, steep banks and uncoordinated maneuvers on a circling approach
> are bad news.

I agree with this which is why I am reluctant to bank steep or slip in
the turn.

[Roger]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:55:35 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>Slipping in a turn will greatly increase its radius. That is likely your
>problem. There is also no reason that you have to end your 180 aligned with
>the runway. You can overshoot to the other side and come back. It is the
>same as mountain flying, use turns to lengthen the approach if you need more
>distance to descend. Also you might as well fly at least a half mile from
>the runway on downwind since you aren't going to be doing this with less
>than a mile of vis anyway.
>

Turns need to be coordinated until within 30 degrees of the final
heading. (I left my FARs/AIM out in the shop) and as I recall you
need to maintain MDA until within 30 degrees of the runway. At that
point if the runway is relatively short I resort to a slipping turn to
lose altitude in a hurry.. Even if lined up with the runway I'll slip
to the end, unless it's a long runway. Ours are 3000, and 3800 and
all VOR approaches end in a circle to land. GPS 6 and 24 are straight
in.


>Mike
>MU-2
>
>"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
>> Hmmm good point, my instructor has been on me to keep the downwind tight,
>> maybe I'm making it too tight. And also probably not rolling into the 30
>> degree bank fast enough.
>>
>> Re: slipping slowing down the turn, instructor sez to steepen the bank and
>> slip, because I am also rolling out on final too high.

Normally you wouldn't be flying a down wind, base and final at most
uncontrolled airports and you can start your descent within 30 degrees
of the runway heading rather than rolling out lined up with the
runway. OTOH this does take practice and the AIM cautions that the
"circle to land" takes extra proficiency as you are maneuvering close
to the ground.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>>
>> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>>
>>> If you are having problems with turn radius you need to slow down. The
>>> turns should be coordinated and if you are slipping (not enough rudder)
>>> that will widen your turns too. Radius of turn at 80kts and 30 deg bank
>>> is 973' which means that you need less than a third of a nm to make a
>>> 180. This should not be a problem as no IAP that I have seen has a
>>> circling vis minimium less than that. Remember that turn radius goes up
>>> as the square of the speed. Slow down.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> MU-2
>>>
>>>
>>> "xyzzy" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
>>>>degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
>>>>and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>>>>
>>>>Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
>>>>keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
>>>>lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
>>>>turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
>>>>lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
>>>>called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
>>>>and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to
>>>>unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
>>>>final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
>>>>coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
>>>>having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
>>>>slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.
>>>>
>>>>Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
>>>>you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
>>>>slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Roy Smith]

Roger > wrote:
> as I recall you need to maintain MDA until within 30 degrees of the runway.

There is no such requirement. The AIM (5-4-19-f) just says:

> Pilots should remain at or above the circling altitude until the aircraft is
> continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended
> runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers.

On an approach like http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0507/09390G4.PDF (Ellenville,
NY GPS-4, CTL), the MDA is almost 2000 AGL. No way in heck you'd be able
to land if you waited until you were almost established on final before
going below MDA.

[Scott Migaldi]

xyzzy wrote:

>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>
This is where I learned to not do circling approach at minimums or at night.

--
--------------------
Scott F. Migaldi
CP-ASEL-IA
N8116B

PADI MI-150972
Join the PADI Instructor Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/

--------------------

[Roger]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:57:10 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>Roger > wrote:
>> as I recall you need to maintain MDA until within 30 degrees of the runway.
>
>There is no such requirement. The AIM (5-4-19-f) just says:

Thanks Roy. As I said I didn't have mine in here for reference.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>> Pilots should remain at or above the circling altitude until the aircraft is
>> continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended
>> runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers.
>
>On an approach like http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0507/09390G4.PDF (Ellenville,
>NY GPS-4, CTL), the MDA is almost 2000 AGL. No way in heck you'd be able
>to land if you waited until you were almost established on final before
>going below MDA.

[gregscheetah]

I think this topic brings up another good point. Start practicing VFR
landings using non-standard approaches. I find a nice, out of the way
airport, with no traffic and practice right traffic, straight in, close
downwind, 180 turns to final,etc.... I also had a problem with
getting in the Downwind, base, final rut and needed to get some
practice doing funny approaches. Many VOR IAP do not line you up for
the runway.
This practice has actually helped me to land the airplane on nice days
as well as during IMC.

[RjL]

Just slow down. That will decrease your turm radius & give you more time to
do everything else. You can also put in half flaps if you dont like flying
slow with your nose in the air. So far as distance from the runway, normal
pattern distances will always be within the 1.3 miles alloted. Its
distracting for sure to be lower than usual TPA, so all the more reason to
just increase the pitch angle & slow it down.

Good luck !! :)


"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
> All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
> degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four years
> and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.
>
> Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
> keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final lined
> up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping turns to
> final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet lower than
> the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being called upon to
> do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated, and significantly
> lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard to unlearn and as a
> result my circling approaches are all overshooting final. So far I have
> always been able to get back to it while staying coordinated and land with
> plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself having an easier time doing
> that than banking more than 30 degrees in a slip while only 300-400 feet
> AGL.
>
> Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
> you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
> slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.
>