Gary IN to CVG?

[Paul kgyy]

Considering a flight into CVG, which is Class B and would appreciate
some insight from the group.
1. The IFR routing with STAR is very circuitous - better to file VFR?
2. Reservation required? Flight will be on Saturday.

Any other tips - FBO, etc? Piper Arrow.

[[email protected]]

Hi Paul,

I'm based out of Cincinnati Lunken. My experience is that the CVG folks
are *extremely* unfriendly towards GA aircraft. If you are terminating
here in Cincy, any chance that you might fly into Lunken (LUK)? It's
much more GA friendly, and closer to the city anyway.

If you are flying into CVG, I'd do it VFR...CVG seems to get a little
****y about IFR arrivals who won't take a STAR. Also, I'd aim for a
time other than 8-10 AM and 4-7 PM, as these are arrival pushes for
Delta...lots of big iron flying around at that time, and CVG approach
is even more testy than usual.

Either way, good luck, and enjoy Cincinnati!

Cheers,

Cap


Paul kgyy wrote:
> Considering a flight into CVG, which is Class B and would appreciate
> some insight from the group.
> 1. The IFR routing with STAR is very circuitous - better to file VFR?
> 2. Reservation required? Flight will be on Saturday.
>
> Any other tips - FBO, etc? Piper Arrow.

[[email protected]]

I second what the captain says, except I'll say it stronger: Don't fly
into CVG in a light aircraft under any circumstances. Lunken is much
better in all respects.

Paul kgyy wrote:

> Considering a flight into CVG, which is Class B and would appreciate
> some insight from the group.
> 1. The IFR routing with STAR is very circuitous - better to file VFR?
> 2. Reservation required? Flight will be on Saturday.
>
> Any other tips - FBO, etc? Piper Arrow.

[paul kgyy]

Thanks; I have a passenger that needs to take a flight out of CVG,
otherwise Lunken would be better.

[Chip Hermes]

Why not? Who do they think they are?

I've flown light aircraft at peak hours (both VFR and IFR) into DFW,
LAX, IAH, etc, all of which are significantly busier than CVG and it
was a breeze.

Chip

P.S. everyone on airnav commenting about CVG seems to be flying a 172
or equiv and seems to think it was a great experience.

[xyzzy]

Chip Hermes wrote:

> Why not? Who do they think they are?
>
> I've flown light aircraft at peak hours (both VFR and IFR) into DFW,
> LAX, IAH, etc, all of which are significantly busier than CVG and it
> was a breeze.

I've flown a Warrior VFR to IAD also and it was a great experience. Yeah
I got vectored all over the place to keep me out of the way of bigger
and faster and IFR traffic and they worked me onto the runway during a
lull so I ended up flying a 13 mile downwind and final but I enjoyed the
tour of the area and the controllers never made me feel unwelcome.

[[email protected]]

I was based at LAX with a major airline for many years. In the early
days knowing the peaks and valleys I used to fly a light aircraft in
there when our company would let us park at the hangar. Then, traffic
increased and one day I was almost blown over in an Arrow by a
Continental 727 who blasted the power around the corner taking 25L for
takeoff even though the tower told him to be careful.

It's too easy to end up in a nasty situation like that at one of these
major airports.

Chip Hermes wrote:

> Why not? Who do they think they are?
>
> I've flown light aircraft at peak hours (both VFR and IFR) into DFW,
> LAX, IAH, etc, all of which are significantly busier than CVG and it
> was a breeze.
>
> Chip
>
> P.S. everyone on airnav commenting about CVG seems to be flying a 172
> or equiv and seems to think it was a great experience.

[Robbie S.]

I have heard the same thing about the Cincy Approach. If you go to Lunken,
park at Million Air and if you refuel there, they will give you a new loaner
Jaguar. You can drive your passenger to CVG and enjoy the Jag (did I
mention it was new when I got it two weeks ago !).

....Robbie.

"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks; I have a passenger that needs to take a flight out of CVG,
> otherwise Lunken would be better.
>

[[email protected]]

Don't know *who* they think they are. And I've flown into other Class B
airports without the headaches too. But CVG really seems to go out of
its way to make things difficult sometimes for GA folks. I'm a CFI out
of LUK, and generally have no problem at all doing stuff in their
airspace...but ask to land? They *definitely* don't like it. Even at
slow times, they don't like small planes, especially doing practice
approaches. In fairness to them, tho, when it matters they are solid. I
had to miss off of the LUK ILS a couple of times earlier this year, and
the CVG guys did a fine job, basically offering me anything I wanted
either at LUK or CVG (I got into LUK on the next try); fine vectors no
problems at all.

But I've tried to go in there VFR a couple times, and do some practice
approaches with students, and I felt distinctly unwelcome. Can't blame
them...their job is first and foremost to get the big iron in and
out...unnecessary GA planes just make the mix more complex for them.

Cheers,

Cap

[John Doe]

File VFR and talk to them before the Class B. Follow their vectors to the T
and be professional and courteous to them on the radio. Keep your speed up
as long as you can.

If you have an issue with a controller, get his initials and call his
supervisor when you land.

I don't recall anything that says some big shot in a jet has a higher
priority reason to land there than you do. That's why it's called a public
airport.

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Considering a flight into CVG, which is Class B and would appreciate
> some insight from the group.
> 1. The IFR routing with STAR is very circuitous - better to file VFR?
> 2. Reservation required? Flight will be on Saturday.
>
> Any other tips - FBO, etc? Piper Arrow.
>

[Michael 182]

"John Doe" > wrote in message
nk.net...

> I don't recall anything that says some big shot in a jet has a higher
> priority reason to land there than you do. That's why it's called a
> public airport.

Of course they have a higher priority. They have 100+ passengers, they are
trying to make a schedule, their fuel costs more than your plane, they fly
at speeds that match the local traffic, they are almost always perfect at
low IFR approaches - they fit in the system that was designed for them. You
don't. If you want to use a Class B, go for it. But don't get ****ed off
when you get vectored for half an hour to fit you into the pattern - that's
like getting angry that New York has more traffic than Peoria. It's just
part of the environment.

And, by the way, if you get upset at the approach end, wait until you have
to wait on line to depart behind 18 stinking jets at 105 degrees because you
couldn't get the taxi clearance you wanted. Sure, we have every right to fly
in and out of Class Bs. Sometimes, like in the case of the OP, it probably
makes sense. But 99% of the time life is much easier landing at one of the
local GA airports.

Michael

[Everett M. Greene]

writes:
> Don't know *who* they think they are. And I've flown into other Class B
> airports without the headaches too. But CVG really seems to go out of
> its way to make things difficult sometimes for GA folks. I'm a CFI out
> of LUK, and generally have no problem at all doing stuff in their
> airspace...but ask to land? They *definitely* don't like it. Even at
> slow times, they don't like small planes, especially doing practice
> approaches. In fairness to them, tho, when it matters they are solid. I
> had to miss off of the LUK ILS a couple of times earlier this year, and
> the CVG guys did a fine job, basically offering me anything I wanted
> either at LUK or CVG (I got into LUK on the next try); fine vectors no
> problems at all.
>
> But I've tried to go in there VFR a couple times, and do some practice
> approaches with students, and I felt distinctly unwelcome. Can't blame
> them...their job is first and foremost to get the big iron in and
> out...unnecessary GA planes just make the mix more complex for them.

I thought the FAA's job is to properly handle /all/ aircraft.

[Maule Driver]

Everett M. Greene wrote:
> I thought the FAA's job is to properly handle /all/ aircraft.

Well, presumably they will. Just with a bad attitude.

I think it's pretty funny how certain ATC locations have noticeably
negative personalities. But on second thought, it's not surprising.
It's a job, offices have 'cultures', and management quality varies.
Fortunately they have a pretty well defined set of operating procedures
to follow and plenty of controls so as long as they get it done, what's
the problem?

Charlotte used to be kind of funky in this pilot's book but that's long
gone. Maybe a little hub downsizing gets everyone's attention. Great
place now. Savannah usually managed to seem nasty for no apparent
reason. Probably an a--h--- manager or 2, who knows.

[[email protected]]

Yes it is. And as I said, when something *really* matters, they do it
well, regardless of whether you are an A340 or a Cherokee. But there is
a reason a Class B airport is a Class B airport. And while,
theoretically, a 152 on an IFR training flight is no 'different' from a
767 with a full load of passengers, the realities *are* different.

The guys at CVG don't want a 172 mixing with their big iron. And I
can't blame them. Their job is to help ensure the safe and efficient
operations in and out of their airport, and 75 knots just doesn't mix
well with 180 knots. They know there are 3 perfectly good GA airports
within 25 miles. If you are GA, it seems that they want you to use
them. They also know that that 777 costs $15,000 an hour to operate,
and making him miss because he can't slow down enough and the 172 ahead
of him can't speed up enough is going to cause all kinds of headaches.

It's like most other things in aviation operations. If an approach
controller is pretty certain you know your stuff (i.e. you're a freight
dog, and he recognizes your tail number or call sign) he may well give
you a different approach (i.e. slam you in right at the marker, between
traffic) than if he thinks you are a 'random' or inexperienced GA IFR
pilot (i.e. stick you in a hold until everything is clear, then give
easy vectors out to the boonies to get you established). And can you
blame him?

I'm not saying the OP *can't* go into CVG. Obviously he can, and he
seems to have a very good reason for choosing CVG over Lunken. But I am
saying is that these guys have a job to do, and random GA planes flying
PLAs into their airport can make their jobs harder. They don't like it,
and they make that known.

Cheers,

Cap

[Everett M. Greene]

writes:
[snip]
> I'm not saying the OP *can't* go into CVG. Obviously he can, and he
> seems to have a very good reason for choosing CVG over Lunken. But I am
> saying is that these guys have a job to do, and random GA planes flying
> PLAs into their airport can make their jobs harder. They don't like it,
> and they make that known.

If they don't like their job, they can find another
line of work. Controllers are Government employees
whose job it is to serve the (flying) public. If
they can't do that in a reasonable and responsible
manner, they should be shown the door.

[Bill]

Not knowing all this I arranged to be dropped off there to catch
af flight by my client in a BE-35.

No problem at all. Saturday afternoon as I recall.

Bill Hale

[[email protected]]

They serve the flying public well. And they don't 'deny' services to
anyone. Want to practice an ILS while a bunch of 767s are inbound?
Great. Proceed direct HOLGR and hold...expect further clearance in 4
hours. You want to do some touch and goes in your 152 during the Delta
push? No problem at all...right turn 360, expect a turn inbound in 40
miles. Want to take back off? Sure. Excellent. You will be number 23
for takeoff behind that 15th RJ.

Why should one expect anything else? Class B airports, by definition,
are air carrier airports. That is their primary reason to exist. The
controllers understand that, and act accordingly. You 'can' go into a
Class B airport if you'd like in your 152. But is it wise? generally
not. You know it, I know it, and the controllers know it. This is how
they let you know that they don't like it. And I completely understand.

Cheers,

Cap

[xyzzy]

Maule Driver wrote:

> Everett M. Greene wrote:
> > I thought the FAA's job is to properly handle /all/ aircraft.
>
> Well, presumably they will. Just with a bad attitude.
>
> I think it's pretty funny how certain ATC locations have noticeably
> negative personalities. But on second thought, it's not surprising.
> It's a job, offices have 'cultures', and management quality varies.
> Fortunately they have a pretty well defined set of operating procedures
> to follow and plenty of controls so as long as they get it done, what's
> the problem?
>
> Charlotte used to be kind of funky in this pilot's book but that's long
> gone. Maybe a little hub downsizing gets everyone's attention. Great
> place now.

When RDU was an AA hub, they didn't want local pilots coming in to do
practice stuff. After AA pulled out, RDU controllers came to local
flying club meetings and invited them come on over and practice as much
as they want.

The above happened before I started flying. My only experience with RDU
is in the post-AA era and they have been nothing but friendly and
helpful IMO.

[Maule Driver]

RDU is close to my home airport and I go in there a lot. They are very
friendly. Of course one of my airpark neighbors is a controller there too.

I've attended various meetings where RDU issues have been covered and
here's how I understand it:

When an AA hub, RDU was on track for a Class B. More ATC pay, perhaps
prestige, and no need to solicit more traffic (or friends?). When the
hub collapsed, they slipped below the traffic threshold required for
Class B.

Apparently they've been very close over the years because Class B
hearings and planning sessions and such have been held repeatedly, but
they seem to keep coming up short of whatever the criteria is.

I remember an ATC rep in one of the meetings half joking about how they
welcome every operation in order to help them make the numbers.

So RDU remains a Class C and can't seem to make the big time from an ATC
perspective. But there are new facilities all over the place. New
parking, new ramps, new hangars,the FBOs seem successful and flush, big
iron GA floods the ramp, and *visiting* spam can flyers benefit from it
all. A GREAT place to fly into for whatever. Yaaay!

xyzzy wrote:
> When RDU was an AA hub, they didn't want local pilots coming in to do
> practice stuff. After AA pulled out, RDU controllers came to local
> flying club meetings and invited them come on over and practice as much
> as they want.
>
> The above happened before I started flying. My only experience with RDU
> is in the post-AA era and they have been nothing but friendly and
> helpful IMO.
>

[Jose]

> Apparently they've been very close over the years because Class B hearings and planning sessions and such have been held repeatedly, but they seem to keep coming up short of whatever the criteria is.
>
> I remember an ATC rep in one of the meetings half joking about how they welcome every operation in order to help them make the numbers.
>
> So RDU remains a Class C and can't seem to make the big time from an ATC perspective.

So, maybe us spam cans ought to avoid the airport, lest we get more
Bravo airspace.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[George Patterson]

Maule Driver wrote:
>
> So RDU remains a Class C and can't seem to make the big time from an ATC
> perspective. But there are new facilities all over the place. New
> parking, new ramps, new hangars,the FBOs seem successful and flush, big
> iron GA floods the ramp, and *visiting* spam can flyers benefit from it
> all. A GREAT place to fly into for whatever. Yaaay!

Yeah. I landed there just before the spamcan FBO closed one night. Both landing
lights were out, and I bought bulbs there just as they were shutting the
register up. When I landed, the dew point and temperature were about 4 degrees
apart, so I was interested in staying over.

My sister lives in the area, but she was on the road and nobody answered the
phone. A big hurricane (Hugo?) had blown through a few weeks before. The guy at
Piedmont called every hotel in Raleigh. They were all full, including the
$150/night places. He got off the phone just as I finished up with the landing
lights and just tossed me the keys to one of their pilot "emergency" rooms. No
charge.

OK, the gas is a bit pricey, but the people are great!

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Maule Driver]

Well George, you would barely recognize the place now. All new
buildings and ramps and taxiways in the FBO area.

I know people considered Southern Jet the spam can FBO and Piedmont for
big iron. Before the last set of renovations, I always went to Piedmont
when I couldn't get home due to weather. I'm ashamed to say I never
spent a dime there but they never charged one either. Parked on their
ramp overnight many times, several days on occassion. Charging me never
seemed worth the effort. I just made myself at home and did whatever I
needed to do.

I've since used SJ and like them too. Always willing to drive a
passenger to the terminals or whatever.

Little known secret of RDU - the new GA 'terminal building' situated
between Piedmont and SC is empty but has a little grill upstairs with a
glassed in balcony to watch the traffic from. During normal daylight
hours you can eat in peace and splendor while watching your plane and
traffic. You'll usually be alone with the grill man.

George Patterson wrote:
>
> Yeah. I landed there just before the spamcan FBO closed one night. Both
> landing lights were out, and I bought bulbs there just as they were
> shutting the register up. When I landed, the dew point and temperature
> were about 4 degrees apart, so I was interested in staying over.
>
> My sister lives in the area, but she was on the road and nobody answered
> the phone. A big hurricane (Hugo?) had blown through a few weeks before.
> The guy at Piedmont called every hotel in Raleigh. They were all full,
> including the $150/night places. He got off the phone just as I finished
> up with the landing lights and just tossed me the keys to one of their
> pilot "emergency" rooms. No charge.
>
> OK, the gas is a bit pricey, but the people are great!
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Everett M. Greene]

writes:
> They serve the flying public well. And they don't 'deny' services to
> anyone. Want to practice an ILS while a bunch of 767s are inbound?
> Great. Proceed direct HOLGR and hold...expect further clearance in 4
> hours. You want to do some touch and goes in your 152 during the Delta
> push? No problem at all...right turn 360, expect a turn inbound in 40
> miles. Want to take back off? Sure. Excellent. You will be number 23
> for takeoff behind that 15th RJ.
>
> Why should one expect anything else? Class B airports, by definition,
> are air carrier airports. That is their primary reason to exist. The
> controllers understand that, and act accordingly. You 'can' go into a
> Class B airport if you'd like in your 152. But is it wise? generally
> not. You know it, I know it, and the controllers know it. This is how
> they let you know that they don't like it. And I completely understand.

I got my commercial and instrument licenses flying in the
Denver area (class A). Denver had the only ILS at the time.
There was no "push" time since United training flights
filled the lulls in the normal traffic. The controllers
didn't park me in western Kansas until the continuous
stream of big iron was handled before I got to make an
approach. It may have been a nuisance but the controllers
made a hole in the line and vectored me alongside the line
until the hole caught up with me. I was then vectored over
to the localizer (and told to keep my speed up, of course).
No fuss and all in a day's work for the controllers.

I've also been given the "treatment" by controllers in
Rhode Island. I once asked for an ILS approach to PVD
and was told to expect a two-hour delay. There was no
other traffic in the area of any kind but there were
controllers in the area who thought all small planes
should be banned from the air.

[Dave Butler]

Maule Driver wrote:

> So RDU remains a Class C and can't seem to make the big time from an ATC
> perspective. But there are new facilities all over the place. New
> parking, new ramps, new hangars,

Take a look at the Airport Authority membership at

http://www.rdu.com/aboutrdu/meet.htm

Notice some of the same names that you see on the construction vehicles for the
companies that are pouring all that new concrete?

Cynicism aside, I'm based there and I like the facilities. Y'all come on down.

Dave

[Andrew Sarangan]

Lunken airport is only 12 miles from CVG, more GA friendly and is closer
to downtown. CVG is actually in Kentucky. Unless you have a specific
reason to go to CVG, I would choose LUK.


"Michael 182" > wrote in
:

>
> "John Doe" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>> I don't recall anything that says some big shot in a jet has a higher
>> priority reason to land there than you do. That's why it's called a
>> public airport.
>
> Of course they have a higher priority. They have 100+ passengers, they
> are trying to make a schedule, their fuel costs more than your plane,
> they fly at speeds that match the local traffic, they are almost
> always perfect at low IFR approaches - they fit in the system that was
> designed for them. You don't. If you want to use a Class B, go for it.
> But don't get ****ed off when you get vectored for half an hour to fit
> you into the pattern - that's like getting angry that New York has
> more traffic than Peoria. It's just part of the environment.
>
> And, by the way, if you get upset at the approach end, wait until you
> have to wait on line to depart behind 18 stinking jets at 105 degrees
> because you couldn't get the taxi clearance you wanted. Sure, we have
> every right to fly in and out of Class Bs. Sometimes, like in the case
> of the OP, it probably makes sense. But 99% of the time life is much
> easier landing at one of the local GA airports.
>
> Michael
>
>
>