OSH '05 Comments

[PPT33R]

Another great OSH. The number and quality of the exhibits seems to
improve each year. I especially like the Miller Welding trailer. My
girlfriend even got to play with the plasma cutter, and she liked it
(maybe helping me justify a future purchase ;-)...

We met the MotoArt guys (from the now discontinued TV show "Wing
Nuts".) They said there is a 'lost episode' they are trying to air that
will answer many questions regarding Tim before he died.

Wicks had a much smaller display this year with no parts, just pilot
supplies. They should probably move to the Fly Market and provide more
selection next year.

I am not sure about the new scheduling, starting on a Monday. Crowds
seemed VERY light on Monday (which was good for us, but not sure for
the vendors.) It will be interesting to see how this weekend works out
for them. The North 40 was filled by Sunday night, but emptied out
considerably by Wednesday afternoon (when we left.)

The comaraderie of campers in the North 40 was as good as ever. We
really enjoyed talking with all our camping neighbors. And as full as
the North 40 was, we didn't have problems getting in and out of the
showers! The storm night was quite exciting, but largely uneventful.
One lesson for our fellow campers - don't expect a cheap Wal-Mart tent
to keep you dry in a major OSH T-Storm (we had a Mountain Hardware tent
that kept everything out, and didn't collapse or break a pole!)

The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'. I don't
ever remember getting run down by OSP in the past at OSH. There is now
a large 'scooter rental' right inside the gates. Granted, some people
actually NEED these things to get around, but I didn't see any, and I
doubt they would hold an airman's certificate. They were ALL George
Costanza wannabes (recall the Seinfeld episode with the 'great scooter
chase'), and I don't think ANY were paid EAA Members. So, EAA won't let
me ride my bicycle from the far end of the North 40 to the Forum
Pavillions, but OSP can run people down in the exhibit hangars and go
wherever the hell they want? It makes NO sense to me, I am more afraid
of the 300lb'er not looking where they are driving their scooter. I
made a comment to EAA about this, it really bothered me. If you have a
note from your doctor, OK, but just being lazy ****es me off. If the
invasion of the OSP continues, it will eventually be enough to dissuade
me from attending in the future...

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"PPT33R" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
> to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'. I don't
> ever remember getting run down by OSP in the past at OSH. There is now
> a large 'scooter rental' right inside the gates. Granted, some people
> actually NEED these things to get around, but I didn't see any, and I
> doubt they would hold an airman's certificate. They were ALL George
> Costanza wannabes (recall the Seinfeld episode with the 'great scooter
> chase'), and I don't think ANY were paid EAA Members. So, EAA won't let
> me ride my bicycle from the far end of the North 40 to the Forum
> Pavillions, but OSP can run people down in the exhibit hangars and go
> wherever the hell they want? It makes NO sense to me, I am more afraid
> of the 300lb'er not looking where they are driving their scooter. I
> made a comment to EAA about this, it really bothered me. If you have a
> note from your doctor, OK, but just being lazy ****es me off. If the
> invasion of the OSP continues, it will eventually be enough to dissuade
> me from attending in the future...
>

They should be more highly regulated that DC airspace. The scooter store has
obviously hired a top dog salesman in my area. From nowhere there are now at
least 40 in this town of 25K. They drive on the roads. They were riding the
little Satan scooters on the main 5 lane avenue until the police put a stop
to it but they still cross it during rush hour.

As far as OSH I think the answer would be a retractable blade in your shoe.
Just pop it out and kick the tire.

[Corky Scott]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:49:09 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote:

>They should be more highly regulated that DC airspace. The scooter store has
>obviously hired a top dog salesman in my area. From nowhere there are now at
>least 40 in this town of 25K. They drive on the roads. They were riding the
>little Satan scooters on the main 5 lane avenue until the police put a stop
>to it but they still cross it during rush hour.

Those *******s. How dare they try to cross the street, especially in
front of YOU! What the **HELL** could they be thinking!?!?
>
>As far as OSH I think the answer would be a retractable blade in your shoe.
>Just pop it out and kick the tire.

Hell no, shoot'em. You're packin, right? Just blow them suckers away
with your hard hitting .45 automatic and hollow point rounds. Then
you'll never have to worry about seeing them again... Everyone will
thank you, right?

Corky (just kidding officer) Scott

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Corkster....

They aren't just crossing the street they are driving the damn things down
major streets. Not on the side of the rode but right down the center of the
lane. As I said they were doing this on the very busy 5 lane but the PD made
them stop. They are a danger to themselves and others. Many of them have had
their DL taken away and that's the reason they have the things and YOUR tax
dollars are paying for them.

No don't shoot them you'll get caught. My plan will work in a crowd chance
of getting caught is low.


"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:49:09 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
> <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote:
>
>>They should be more highly regulated that DC airspace. The scooter store
>>has
>>obviously hired a top dog salesman in my area. From nowhere there are now
>>at
>>least 40 in this town of 25K. They drive on the roads. They were riding
>>the
>>little Satan scooters on the main 5 lane avenue until the police put a
>>stop
>>to it but they still cross it during rush hour.
>
> Those *******s. How dare they try to cross the street, especially in
> front of YOU! What the **HELL** could they be thinking!?!?
>>
>>As far as OSH I think the answer would be a retractable blade in your
>>shoe.
>>Just pop it out and kick the tire.
>
> Hell no, shoot'em. You're packin, right? Just blow them suckers away
> with your hard hitting .45 automatic and hollow point rounds. Then
> you'll never have to worry about seeing them again... Everyone will
> thank you, right?
>
> Corky (just kidding officer) Scott
>
>

[Matt Whiting]

PPT33R wrote:

> The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
> to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'. I don't
> ever remember getting run down by OSP in the past at OSH. There is now
> a large 'scooter rental' right inside the gates. Granted, some people
> actually NEED these things to get around, but I didn't see any, and I
> doubt they would hold an airman's certificate. They were ALL George
> Costanza wannabes (recall the Seinfeld episode with the 'great scooter
> chase'), and I don't think ANY were paid EAA Members. So, EAA won't let
> me ride my bicycle from the far end of the North 40 to the Forum
> Pavillions, but OSP can run people down in the exhibit hangars and go
> wherever the hell they want? It makes NO sense to me, I am more afraid
> of the 300lb'er not looking where they are driving their scooter. I
> made a comment to EAA about this, it really bothered me. If you have a
> note from your doctor, OK, but just being lazy ****es me off. If the
> invasion of the OSP continues, it will eventually be enough to dissuade
> me from attending in the future...
>

The trouble is that anyone can get a note from their doctor for
anything. Some of the people I know who have gotten handicap tags for
their cars and SUVs really aren't handicapped, but if you complain to
your doctor about any ailment at all you can get approval for a handicap
tag.


Matt

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>The trouble is that anyone can get a note from their doctor for
>anything. Some of the people I know who have gotten handicap tags for
>their cars and SUVs really aren't handicapped, but if you complain to
>your doctor about any ailment at all you can get approval for a handicap
>tag.

I have chronic debilitating knee pain. It ended my cross country ski and
orienteering racing 25 years ago, and has only gotten worse. I had to
give up mountain biking and backpacking and even canoeing. Every single
day of my life, I'm in pain. Lots and lots of pain. Pain so great that I
didn't even realize that my appendix had burst for three days after it
happened, and I lost a large chunk of my stomach and large intestine to
gangrene. Every day where I have to walk more than a few hundred metres
means a few days where I have to gobble down handfuls of naproxen and
tylenol and sit with my legs up and ice them. Every day I walked around
Oshkosh a couple of years ago was agony, but I put up with it because it
was worth it.

And yet if you looked at me, you'd never guess it in a million years.
Because I take the pain. Because the pain isn't any less if I limp or
carry a cane, so I don't. Because I can continue to do what I want to do
if I'm willing to pay the price in pain afterwards, but I'd still prefer
to avoid the pain where I can. Because it isn't a visible disability, but
it's a disability none the less.

Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I got told by a friend's ex-girlfriend that she could tell I was
a Linux geek from the way I *walked*.
-- Skud

[Matt Whiting]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>
>>The trouble is that anyone can get a note from their doctor for
>>anything. Some of the people I know who have gotten handicap tags for
>>their cars and SUVs really aren't handicapped, but if you complain to
>>your doctor about any ailment at all you can get approval for a handicap
>>tag.
>
>
> I have chronic debilitating knee pain. It ended my cross country ski and
> orienteering racing 25 years ago, and has only gotten worse. I had to
> give up mountain biking and backpacking and even canoeing. Every single
> day of my life, I'm in pain. Lots and lots of pain. Pain so great that I
> didn't even realize that my appendix had burst for three days after it
> happened, and I lost a large chunk of my stomach and large intestine to
> gangrene. Every day where I have to walk more than a few hundred metres
> means a few days where I have to gobble down handfuls of naproxen and
> tylenol and sit with my legs up and ice them. Every day I walked around
> Oshkosh a couple of years ago was agony, but I put up with it because it
> was worth it.
>
> And yet if you looked at me, you'd never guess it in a million years.
> Because I take the pain. Because the pain isn't any less if I limp or
> carry a cane, so I don't. Because I can continue to do what I want to do
> if I'm willing to pay the price in pain afterwards, but I'd still prefer
> to avoid the pain where I can. Because it isn't a visible disability, but
> it's a disability none the less.
>
> Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
> aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.

Read it again, for comprehension this time. I didn't say people I've
"seen", I said people I "know." There is a big difference. These are
people that I see doing lots of activities that are much more strenous
than walking across the parking lot to Wal-Mart.

I have degenerative disk disease. You can't always tell it from
watching me walk, but some days you can. I could easily get a handicap
permit, and actually have had doctors suggest I get one. I also have a
high pain threshold and wouldn't think of getting a handicap permit
unless it gets a LOT worse. And you'd then be able to tell from looking
at me that I needed the permit.


Matt

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
>> aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.
>
>Read it again, for comprehension this time. I didn't say people I've
>"seen", I said people I "know." There is a big difference. These are

Yeah, you were talking about people you know. But there are a lot of
people out there who sneer at me in public because I sit while others have
to stand and do what I can to avoid unnecessary walking and standing. I
hear the rude remarks from total strangers, and I was addressing my
remarks more to them than to you.

I don't have a handicap permit, although if one were offered I'd probably
take it.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Usenet should require licenses; licenses that can be revoked.
-- Abigail

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Paul Tomblin) said:
>In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>> Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
>>> aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.
>>
>>Read it again, for comprehension this time. I didn't say people I've
>>"seen", I said people I "know." There is a big difference. These are
>
>Yeah, you were talking about people you know. But there are a lot of

Oh, and by the way. I bet fewer than 10% of the people who think they
"know" me know that I have this pain. I bet a lot of them "know" that I
don't really need to sit when I'm sitting.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Surely the 98% of DNA we share with monkeys must be enough to stop
people from sinking this low.
-- Frossie

[Matt Whiting]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>
>>>Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
>>>aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.
>>
>>Read it again, for comprehension this time. I didn't say people I've
>>"seen", I said people I "know." There is a big difference. These are
>
>
> Yeah, you were talking about people you know. But there are a lot of
> people out there who sneer at me in public because I sit while others have
> to stand and do what I can to avoid unnecessary walking and standing. I
> hear the rude remarks from total strangers, and I was addressing my
> remarks more to them than to you.
>
> I don't have a handicap permit, although if one were offered I'd probably
> take it.

Ask your doctor. It sounds like you'd have no trouble at all getting one.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, (Paul Tomblin) said:
>
>>In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>>
>>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>>
>>>>Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
>>>>aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.
>>>
>>>Read it again, for comprehension this time. I didn't say people I've
>>>"seen", I said people I "know." There is a big difference. These are
>>
>>Yeah, you were talking about people you know. But there are a lot of
>
>
> Oh, and by the way. I bet fewer than 10% of the people who think they
> "know" me know that I have this pain. I bet a lot of them "know" that I
> don't really need to sit when I'm sitting.

I can't speak for folks who know you. I guess the question is to they
see you playing golf, mowing the yard with a push mower, etc. I've
known a number of people who do these things and more and then park
their car in the handicap slot at Wal-Mart. If someone can push a mower
or walk a golf course, then they certainly can cross 200' of flat
parking lot.


Matt

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Matt Whiting > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> Oh, and by the way. I bet fewer than 10% of the people who think they
>> "know" me know that I have this pain. I bet a lot of them "know" that I
>> don't really need to sit when I'm sitting.
>I can't speak for folks who know you. I guess the question is to they
>see you playing golf, mowing the yard with a push mower, etc. I've
>known a number of people who do these things and more and then park
>their car in the handicap slot at Wal-Mart. If someone can push a mower
>or walk a golf course, then they certainly can cross 200' of flat
>parking lot.

Like I said, I can "spend" the pain if it's worth it - so I can walk
around the field at Oshkosh for 5 straight days, providing I don't have to
walk at all for the following week or two. And I can mow the grass,
although I prefer my self propelled mower to a normal one. And I carry my
own kayak to the put-in from the parking lot. But that doesn't mean I
want to spend my daily pain allotment on walking around the mall.

The reason I don't ask for a handicap tag is that I don't think the extra
few minutes it would save in the parking lot is all that significant
compared to the hour or more of walking and standing a typical trip to the
mall costs me.

When I remember, I carry a cane as "protective colouration" - it doesn't
help me walk, but it does help justify my sitting down when there are
women standing. For really arduous shopping trips (like Christmas), I
sometimes get the shopping mall wheel chairs, but then I have to endure
"assistants" in the shops who ignore me, talk to my wife about me as if I
wasn't there, or who act like I must be retarded because I'm in a wheel
chair.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Diplomacy is the ability to let someone else have your way.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Matt Whiting wrote:

> I've known a number of people who do these things and more and then park
> their car in the handicap slot at Wal-Mart.

A woman goes into Wal-Mart to buy a rod and reel. She doesn't
know which one to get so she just grabs one and goes over to the
register. There is a Wal-Mart "associate" standing there with
dark shades on.

She says, "Excuse me sir...can you tell me anything about this
rod and reel?"

He says, "Ma'am I'm blind but if you will drop it on the counter
I can tell you everything you need to know about it from the
sound that it makes."

She didn't believe him, but dropped it on the counter anyway. He
said, "That's a 6' graphite rod with a Zebco 202 reel and 10 lb.
test line. It's a good all around rod and reel and it's $20.00."

She says, "Thats amazing that you can tell all that just by the
sound of it dropping on the counter. I think it's what I'm
looking for so I'll take it."

He walks behind the counter to the register, and in the meantime
the woman farts. At first she is embarrassed but then realizes
that there is no way he could tell it was her--being blind he
wouldn't know that she was the only person around. He rings up
the sale and says, "That will be $25.50."

She says, "But didn't you say it was $20.00?" He says, "Yes
ma'am, the rod and reel is $20.00, the duck call is $3.00, and
the catfish stink bait is $2.50."

---

Tbread drifted enough to make the post above ontopic... ;-P

[Jim N.]

Here are my two cents as an orthopedic surgeon and pilot (attending OSH
tomorrow). In my opinion, I never give anyone a permanent handicapped
parking sticker unless they need a cane, crutches, walker, or wheel chair to
ambulate. This especially includes people who have undergone joint
replacement and have no problem playing 18 holes of golf, but want to park a
little closer at the grocery store.

Besides, most of the others who ask for stickers would do themselves a lot
better if they did more walking rather than riding on scooters. I also see a
lot more abuse of handicapped parking places than I do people using them who
really need the assistance.

In essence, I agree with the original post. After recently traveling to
Europe and Southwest Asia on a military deployment it was noticeable how
obese the average American was compared to their European counterparts. It's
a lot easier to ride a scooter that's paid for by insurance than to lose
weight.

On the other hand, for the right person, both scooters and handicapped
permits can really expand the quality of life of an individual, assuming
that they are prescribed appropriately.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

> Yeah, you were talking about people you know. But there are a lot of
> people out there who sneer at me in public because I sit while others have
> to stand and do what I can to avoid unnecessary walking and standing. I
> hear the rude remarks from total strangers, and I was addressing my
> remarks more to them than to you.

I think the problem comes in when you have folks who are able to get
around, even if it's painful, but then there are those who really can't
get around even if they want to.

If someone is willing to put up with the pain to walk around OSH or to
go and play 18 holes, why should they be riding a scooter or park in a
handicapped space at the grocery store? Obviously, they don't need it.
There are those with serious disabilities or medical conditions, who
simply can't get around, and then there are those who are just lazy.



JKG

[[email protected]]

I have a fairly useless left leg (having blown it very nearly off years
ago), chronic sciatica, and bad knees. I also refuse to get handicap
tags, or use a scooter. In fact, I am an actively serving Reserve
Officer in the US Army. I truly believe that the majority of welfare
scum who steal money from us through taxes to fund their little
freaking scooters, might weigh a pound or two less than the 500 they
seem to average if they'd exercise a little, instead of riding their
scooter, paid for by you and me, to the Old Country Buffet.

As for pain, learn to live with it. It has become my special friend,
and it can be yours. I had a very low pain threshold before I went on
this campaign to singlehandedly destroy my body through misuse, but now
I live with it every day, once I learned to grow up and get over it.

Drew

[David Lesher]

Matt Whiting > writes:


>I've known a number of people who do these things and more and then park
>their car in the handicap slot at Wal-Mart. If someone can push a mower
>or walk a golf course, then they certainly can cross 200' of flat
>parking lot.

There was some senior Apple person who insisted on parking in one
handicapped spot. So they changed the sign to:

"Reserved for the mentally or
physically handicapped only"
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Sylvain]

Jonathan

in the spirit of bringing it a little bit back on topic :-)

you wouldn't believe how few airports have handicap
parking spots for aircraft (actually, the only time
I remember I had such a spot reserved was on an AFB,
believe it or not, these guys are great :-)

one of these days I would really like to go to OSH;
snag is, it looks like it involves an awful lot of
walking (as pointed out by another poster) and I heard
that scooters and such were not allowed on the grounds;

anyone out there who has mobility limitations has gone
to OSH (flying that is) and could tell me about it?

--Sylvain

[Matt Whiting]

Jim N. wrote:

> Here are my two cents as an orthopedic surgeon and pilot (attending OSH
> tomorrow). In my opinion, I never give anyone a permanent handicapped
> parking sticker unless they need a cane, crutches, walker, or wheel chair to
> ambulate. This especially includes people who have undergone joint
> replacement and have no problem playing 18 holes of golf, but want to park a
> little closer at the grocery store.
>
> Besides, most of the others who ask for stickers would do themselves a lot
> better if they did more walking rather than riding on scooters. I also see a
> lot more abuse of handicapped parking places than I do people using them who
> really need the assistance.
>
> In essence, I agree with the original post. After recently traveling to
> Europe and Southwest Asia on a military deployment it was noticeable how
> obese the average American was compared to their European counterparts. It's
> a lot easier to ride a scooter that's paid for by insurance than to lose
> weight.
>
> On the other hand, for the right person, both scooters and handicapped
> permits can really expand the quality of life of an individual, assuming
> that they are prescribed appropriately.

I wish all docs shared your philosophy!

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Richard Riley wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:36:15 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote:
>
> :I have degenerative disk disease. You can't always tell it from
> :watching me walk, but some days you can. I could easily get a handicap
> :permit, and actually have had doctors suggest I get one. I also have a
> :high pain threshold and wouldn't think of getting a handicap permit
> :unless it gets a LOT worse. And you'd then be able to tell from looking
> :at me that I needed the permit.
>
> Matt, with all due respect - get one. My dad had one for bad knees
> (both eventually replaced, which helped some but not enough.)
>
> If you don't need it, don't use it, leave it in the glove box. Then
> one long, bad day with lots of walking, you'll have one last errand to
> do - and no one will begrudge you.

I just can't see having one when I see people who REALLY need them. I
don't feel I'm at the level of need. Maybe in 20 years. Also, I NEED
the exercise! :-)

Matt

[PPT33R]

There is a separate aircraft camping area in the North 40 for
handicapped at OSH.

When I walked by each day (located at the main grounds entrance from
the North 40), there were AT MOST 4 aircraft in the designated area. I
give these people a TON of credit. It appeared they all brought their
own wheelchairs and such. I didn't see ANY scooters.

There must be a hell of a lot more handicapped people these days based
upon the number of scooters. I just love the ones that literally JUMP
from their scooters to get in line for their Johnsonville Brats!!!

I prefaced my original post saying I acknowledge there are many people
that NEED these things, and I give them due credit, but I cannot
believe the numbers represented at OSH are reflective of the number of
truly handicapped, I was merely refering to the OSP (I don't consider
obesity-induced mobility loss as a handicapped, rather a self-inflicted
wound.) I have a hard time reconciling these numbers based upon my
observations at OSH. If this is so chronic, then we need Surgeon
General's warning lables on Twinkies and Brats. We must be breeding
ourselves into extinction, having traveled abroad it is quite
disgusting...

[Jim N.]

As another example, I was returning from southwest Asia from an Air Force
deployment, and after many hours on planes, was waiting in the commuter
terminal in Dulles. I also had picked up a pretty significant GI bug, which
had given me fevers and chills along with a nasty case of diarrhea. However,
I also knew that this was the last leg on my way home, and was at least back
in the States.

However, the last leg was on an RJ, and there was an obese passenger waiting
to go on the plane on a scooter. In order to accomodate her needs the
airline needed to bring out a portable ramp, since there was no jetway up to
the plane. Unfortunately, due to the parking spot, the ramp wouldn't come up
to the hatch, so then they had to get a tug and move the plane back a few
feet, after moving all of the ground equipment as well that was next to the
plane.

Unfortunately, the ground crew miscalculated, and they didn't move the plane
back far enough, so after another twenty minutes of trying to fit the
portable ramp, it was clear that the plane needed to be moved again. Of
course, all of the pax were waiting and watching this keystone cops routine,
while I was there with chills and a fever, wondering whether I was going to
need to go out and run to the bathroom again before the flight.

After another attempt at fitting the ramp, the ground crew gave up, and the
passenger in question simply walked up the stairs and down the aisle without
a problem! While she wasn't exactly sprinting, she clearly had little
difficulty going up the four steps and walking down the aisle without
assistance. If we had been on a sailing ship I think all of the pax would
have voted to throw her out the door to the sharks.

Although the whole debacle took around an hour, it was an inconvenience to
everyone on the plane, as well as the ground crew. Obviously, I think most
people would have been understanding and compassionate to a person with
legitimate needs, but this was completely over the top.

I also recently had a patient in her early thirties who insisted that I
document that she had knee pain and needed a handicapped sticker so she
didn't have to walk so far from the parking lot. I offered her some physical
therapy as well as a short course of anti-inflammatory medications, but she
declined, telling me the only thing she needed was the handicapped permit!

Why is it that in American society we need the quick fix- gastroplasty and
other fat reducing surgery or diet pills rather than watching what we eat
and increasing our exercise? Why are our children the fattest in the world?
I am not one of those arrogant rail thin marathon runners by any stretch,
but I believe that obesity is a serious concern for our entire society.

[Roy Page]

Well said !
And another point, any passenger that needs a seat belt extension, should be
required to buy two seats.
Why should we have to put up with their mass spreading into our comfort zone
?

Roy P

"Jim N." > wrote in message
...
> As another example, I was returning from southwest Asia from an Air Force
> deployment, and after many hours on planes, was waiting in the commuter
> terminal in Dulles. I also had picked up a pretty significant GI bug,
> which had given me fevers and chills along with a nasty case of diarrhea.
> However, I also knew that this was the last leg on my way home, and was at
> least back in the States.
>
> However, the last leg was on an RJ, and there was an obese passenger
> waiting to go on the plane on a scooter. In order to accomodate her needs
> the airline needed to bring out a portable ramp, since there was no jetway
> up to the plane. Unfortunately, due to the parking spot, the ramp wouldn't
> come up to the hatch, so then they had to get a tug and move the plane
> back a few feet, after moving all of the ground equipment as well that was
> next to the plane.
>
> Unfortunately, the ground crew miscalculated, and they didn't move the
> plane back far enough, so after another twenty minutes of trying to fit
> the portable ramp, it was clear that the plane needed to be moved again.
> Of course, all of the pax were waiting and watching this keystone cops
> routine, while I was there with chills and a fever, wondering whether I
> was going to need to go out and run to the bathroom again before the
> flight.
>
> After another attempt at fitting the ramp, the ground crew gave up, and
> the passenger in question simply walked up the stairs and down the aisle
> without a problem! While she wasn't exactly sprinting, she clearly had
> little difficulty going up the four steps and walking down the aisle
> without assistance. If we had been on a sailing ship I think all of the
> pax would have voted to throw her out the door to the sharks.
>
> Although the whole debacle took around an hour, it was an inconvenience to
> everyone on the plane, as well as the ground crew. Obviously, I think most
> people would have been understanding and compassionate to a person with
> legitimate needs, but this was completely over the top.
>
> I also recently had a patient in her early thirties who insisted that I
> document that she had knee pain and needed a handicapped sticker so she
> didn't have to walk so far from the parking lot. I offered her some
> physical therapy as well as a short course of anti-inflammatory
> medications, but she declined, telling me the only thing she needed was
> the handicapped permit!
>
> Why is it that in American society we need the quick fix- gastroplasty and
> other fat reducing surgery or diet pills rather than watching what we eat
> and increasing our exercise? Why are our children the fattest in the
> world? I am not one of those arrogant rail thin marathon runners by any
> stretch, but I believe that obesity is a serious concern for our entire
> society.
>

[Jim Carriere]

Roy Page wrote:
> Well said !
> And another point, any passenger that needs a seat belt extension, should be
> required to buy two seats.
> Why should we have to put up with their mass spreading into our comfort zone
> ?

Which is one of the reasons I'm building my own airplane (there- that
covers the topic of all three newsgroups). I don't like people
practically sitting in my lap, spilling over into the seat I paid for
(RJs seem to have especially narrow seats).

[NVArt]

How do you take a census in a government office?

Count the chins and divide by four.

[Kyle Boatright]

"PPT33R" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Another great OSH. The number and quality of the exhibits seems to
> improve each year. I especially like the Miller Welding trailer. My
> girlfriend even got to play with the plasma cutter, and she liked it
> (maybe helping me justify a future purchase ;-)...
>
<<<snip>>>
>
> Wicks had a much smaller display this year with no parts, just pilot
> supplies. They should probably move to the Fly Market and provide more
> selection next year.
>
> I am not sure about the new scheduling, starting on a Monday. Crowds
> seemed VERY light on Monday (which was good for us, but not sure for
> the vendors.) It will be interesting to see how this weekend works out
> for them. The North 40 was filled by Sunday night, but emptied out
> considerably by Wednesday afternoon (when we left.)
>

<<<<snip>>>>

Funny, when we got there by air at ~2:00 on Monday afternoon, the ATIS
indicated that ALL camping was full and the only thing that was open
on-field was General Aviation Parking... From my perspective, this was the
busiest Oshkosh I've attended. I managed to get a spot in Homebuilt
Camping, but the guys there indicated that they were essentially out of
room. Maybe a half dozen spaces left (I'd guess there were 1,000 aircraft
in Homebuilt Camping), and they were about to have to "invent" parking
spaces. The North 40 appeared full, as did Antique and Classic
camping/parking...

Amazing how different folks have different perspectives.

KB

[Dave Butler]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "PPT33R" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
<snip>


>>
>>I am not sure about the new scheduling, starting on a Monday. Crowds
>>seemed VERY light on Monday (which was good for us, but not sure for
>>the vendors.) It will be interesting to see how this weekend works out
>>for them. The North 40 was filled by Sunday night, but emptied out
>>considerably by Wednesday afternoon (when we left.)
>>
>
>
> <<<<snip>>>>
>
> Funny, when we got there by air at ~2:00 on Monday afternoon, the ATIS
> indicated that ALL camping was full and the only thing that was open
> on-field was General Aviation Parking... From my perspective, this was the
> busiest Oshkosh I've attended. I managed to get a spot in Homebuilt
> Camping, but the guys there indicated that they were essentially out of
> room. Maybe a half dozen spaces left (I'd guess there were 1,000 aircraft
> in Homebuilt Camping), and they were about to have to "invent" parking
> spaces. The North 40 appeared full, as did Antique and Classic
> camping/parking...
>
> Amazing how different folks have different perspectives.

I don't see any conflict between your observations and
PPT33R's. I too, observed that the N40 was full by Sunday
night, and emptied out considerably by Wednesday afternoon.
I also observed that the crowds seemed very light on Monday.

Without taking sides on the question of whether all the
scooter drivers really needed scooters, I'll observe that I
felt threatened at times by the scooters.

Dave

[LWG]

Ocean City, NJ has aircraft handicap parking.

Les

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
...
> Jonathan
>
> in the spirit of bringing it a little bit back on topic :-)
>
> you wouldn't believe how few airports have handicap
> parking spots for aircraft (actually, the only time
> I remember I had such a spot reserved was on an AFB,
> believe it or not, these guys are great :-)
>
> one of these days I would really like to go to OSH;
> snag is, it looks like it involves an awful lot of
> walking (as pointed out by another poster) and I heard
> that scooters and such were not allowed on the grounds;
>
> anyone out there who has mobility limitations has gone
> to OSH (flying that is) and could tell me about it?
>
> --Sylvain

[George Patterson]

Jim N. wrote:
>
> Why is it that in American society we need the quick fix- gastroplasty and
> other fat reducing surgery or diet pills rather than watching what we eat
> and increasing our exercise? Why are our children the fattest in the world?

Because some decades back American health "authorities" came up with the idea of
the "food triangle", and American companies started manufacturing stuff based on
that model. When I was a kid, Italians were the heaviest people in the western
world, and it was presented as fact that this was because their diet was heavy
on starch and bread. What did people expect would happen when we adopted the
same model?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Rich S.]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message ...
> Without taking sides on the question of whether all the scooter drivers
> really needed scooters, I'll observe that I felt threatened at times by
> the scooters.

Perhaps there should be a definition between the golf carts and the reduced
mobility vehicles. I find it hard to believe anyone could feel threatened by
the electric three-wheelers used by handicapped folks, The golf carts are
another story and are well-matched by the racing Gators.

We were making our way back to the Homebuilt Hooch on Tuesday night after an
evening with friends at Camp Scholler. The beer and brats were delicious and
it was approaching eight o'clock. We learned then that the trams stop
running at ten minutes to eight and head for their corral after a long day's
stint.

It was a god half-mile walk from Camp Scholler at the mid-south location to
the Homebuilder's Hooch in the North. My 82 year-old navigator and I set out
to walk it, as nothing else was available. He was doing better than I,
because my ten year old back surgery has ran its course. Not a problem,
though. I was willing to pay the price. You folks with back problems know
what I mean. I did get really ****ed off at the 20 something girl who ran
her empty four-seat golf cart through the pedestrians calling out "SORREE"
at the top of her lungs.

The painful walk paid off when we reached AeroShell Square. The sun was
dropping below the horizon in the west and the remaining light played on a
bank of clouds above the field. I stared at the wonder of SpaceShip One,
facing me across the square. All my earthly troubles were forgotten as I
gazed upon the reality of those many hours spent reading Robert Heinlein, E.
E. Smith, Ray Bradbury, and a thousand other word weavers.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/elwood89//temp/spaceship_one.jpg

Thank you, Burt. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Richard. Thanks to each and
every one of the dreamers and workers who made possible the dreams of all of
us.

I hiked the rest of the way with a lightened load.

For those of you who have nothing better to do than to scoff at those with
pain - Bill the Cat has an appropriate salutation. Phhhwwwwttttt!

Rich S.

[Smitty Two]

In article <bxXGe.5979$r12.5870@trndny04>,
George Patterson > wrote:

> Jim N. wrote:
> >
> > Why is it that in American society we need the quick fix- gastroplasty and
> > other fat reducing surgery or diet pills rather than watching what we eat
> > and increasing our exercise? Why are our children the fattest in the world?
>
> Because some decades back American health "authorities" came up with the idea
> of
> the "food triangle", and American companies started manufacturing stuff based
> on
> that model. When I was a kid, Italians were the heaviest people in the
> western
> world, and it was presented as fact that this was because their diet was
> heavy
> on starch and bread. What did people expect would happen when we adopted the
> same model?
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.


Actually, it's called the "food pyramid," and it was (and continues to
be) created out of thin air by the DAIRY INDUSTRY in order to hoodwink
the American people (not a very difficult thing to do) into believing
that milk and milk products must constitute a major and necessary
component of our daily diet. The dairy industry is as crooked as any,
and lines the pockets of politicians from the president on down. There's
no one on any government nutrition panel that isn't nursing on the dairy
industry in a big way, and spitting up the result.

[Matt Whiting]

Smitty Two wrote:

> In article <bxXGe.5979$r12.5870@trndny04>,
> George Patterson > wrote:
>
>
>>Jim N. wrote:
>>
>>>Why is it that in American society we need the quick fix- gastroplasty and
>>>other fat reducing surgery or diet pills rather than watching what we eat
>>>and increasing our exercise? Why are our children the fattest in the world?
>>
>>Because some decades back American health "authorities" came up with the idea
>>of
>>the "food triangle", and American companies started manufacturing stuff based
>>on
>>that model. When I was a kid, Italians were the heaviest people in the
>>western
>>world, and it was presented as fact that this was because their diet was
>>heavy
>>on starch and bread. What did people expect would happen when we adopted the
>>same model?
>>
>>George Patterson
>> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
>> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
>
>
>
> Actually, it's called the "food pyramid," and it was (and continues to
> be) created out of thin air by the DAIRY INDUSTRY in order to hoodwink
> the American people (not a very difficult thing to do) into believing
> that milk and milk products must constitute a major and necessary
> component of our daily diet. The dairy industry is as crooked as any,
> and lines the pockets of politicians from the president on down. There's
> no one on any government nutrition panel that isn't nursing on the dairy
> industry in a big way, and spitting up the result.

Oh come on. This is hilarious. The dairy industry makes you eat too
much and eat the wrong stuff? What about the soda industry whose
products have pretty much no redeeming value, unlike dairy who products
do have nutritional value. How about the fast food industry?

I'm curious though, what did the dairy industry do to you to raise your ire?

Matt

[PPT33R]

I think there were more aircraft this year than in years past coming
through, but I was speaking of the foot traffic being very light. Not
nearly as bad as last year.

The difference may be in the weekend traffic. I make it a point to
avoid Fri - Sun...

[Bill Daniels]

How about this fix. A law that requires the doors on fast food joints be no
wider than 18". No drive by windows allowed. To get food, you have to get
thorough the door.

"Roy Page" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Well said !
> And another point, any passenger that needs a seat belt extension, should
be
> required to buy two seats.
> Why should we have to put up with their mass spreading into our comfort
zone
> ?
>
> Roy P
>
> "Jim N." > wrote in message
> ...
> > As another example, I was returning from southwest Asia from an Air
Force
> > deployment, and after many hours on planes, was waiting in the commuter
> > terminal in Dulles. I also had picked up a pretty significant GI bug,
> > which had given me fevers and chills along with a nasty case of
diarrhea.
> > However, I also knew that this was the last leg on my way home, and was
at
> > least back in the States.
> >
> > However, the last leg was on an RJ, and there was an obese passenger
> > waiting to go on the plane on a scooter. In order to accomodate her
needs
> > the airline needed to bring out a portable ramp, since there was no
jetway
> > up to the plane. Unfortunately, due to the parking spot, the ramp
wouldn't
> > come up to the hatch, so then they had to get a tug and move the plane
> > back a few feet, after moving all of the ground equipment as well that
was
> > next to the plane.
> >
> > Unfortunately, the ground crew miscalculated, and they didn't move the
> > plane back far enough, so after another twenty minutes of trying to fit
> > the portable ramp, it was clear that the plane needed to be moved again.
> > Of course, all of the pax were waiting and watching this keystone cops
> > routine, while I was there with chills and a fever, wondering whether I
> > was going to need to go out and run to the bathroom again before the
> > flight.
> >
> > After another attempt at fitting the ramp, the ground crew gave up, and
> > the passenger in question simply walked up the stairs and down the aisle
> > without a problem! While she wasn't exactly sprinting, she clearly had
> > little difficulty going up the four steps and walking down the aisle
> > without assistance. If we had been on a sailing ship I think all of the
> > pax would have voted to throw her out the door to the sharks.
> >
> > Although the whole debacle took around an hour, it was an inconvenience
to
> > everyone on the plane, as well as the ground crew. Obviously, I think
most
> > people would have been understanding and compassionate to a person with
> > legitimate needs, but this was completely over the top.
> >
> > I also recently had a patient in her early thirties who insisted that I
> > document that she had knee pain and needed a handicapped sticker so she
> > didn't have to walk so far from the parking lot. I offered her some
> > physical therapy as well as a short course of anti-inflammatory
> > medications, but she declined, telling me the only thing she needed was
> > the handicapped permit!
> >
> > Why is it that in American society we need the quick fix- gastroplasty
and
> > other fat reducing surgery or diet pills rather than watching what we
eat
> > and increasing our exercise? Why are our children the fattest in the
> > world? I am not one of those arrogant rail thin marathon runners by any
> > stretch, but I believe that obesity is a serious concern for our entire
> > society.
> >
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Perhaps there should be a definition between the golf carts and the
> reduced mobility vehicles. I find it hard to believe anyone could feel
> threatened by the electric three-wheelers used by handicapped folks, The
> golf carts are another story and are well-matched by the racing Gators.

Years ago my kids coined a term to describe the OSH golf cart riders:
"IIGICs". (Idiots In Golf Carts)

They happily shouted "Watch out -- another IIGIC!" all week long.

This year, for the first time, they coined a term for the 8 thousand little
motor scooters that were suddenly running up our heels all week long:
"IOMS" (Idiots On Motor Scooters) They were EVERYWHERE.

I'm afraid we felt nearly as threatened by these folks as we did by the golf
carts and gators. Because of their numbers, and the fact that the riders
had obviously received NO training in their use, we were nearly run over by
one at least daily. When you're wearing sandals, the thought of a 250
pound scooter flattening your toes is not a fun one, especially after a few
days on your feet.

I, too, resent the fact that we could not bring our bikes onto the grounds,
yet these folks -- most of whom clearly were simply not interested in
walking the immense distances OSH requires -- were given carte blanche to go
anywhere and everywhere with impunity.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[SN]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> How about this fix. A law that requires the doors on fast food joints be no
> wider than 18". No drive by windows allowed. To get food, you have to get
> thorough the door.

......And then up three flights of stairs......

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:
>Richard Riley wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:36:15 GMT, Matt Whiting >
>> wrote:
>>
>> :I have degenerative disk disease. You can't always tell it from
>> :watching me walk, but some days you can. I could easily get a handicap
>> :permit, and actually have had doctors suggest I get one. I also have a
>> :high pain threshold and wouldn't think of getting a handicap permit
>> :unless it gets a LOT worse. And you'd then be able to tell from looking
>> :at me that I needed the permit.
>>
>> Matt, with all due respect - get one. My dad had one for bad knees
>> (both eventually replaced, which helped some but not enough.)
>>
>> If you don't need it, don't use it, leave it in the glove box. Then
>> one long, bad day with lots of walking, you'll have one last errand to
>> do - and no one will begrudge you.
>
>I just can't see having one when I see people who REALLY need them. I
>don't feel I'm at the level of need. Maybe in 20 years. Also, I NEED
>the exercise! :-)


Richard is right. Given that you meet the 'letter' of the qualifications
*get*one*.

It's not like there is a limited supply of them. You're _not_ depriving
some 'more in need' by getting one for yourself.

And, you're *not* restricted to only using the handicapped places if you
do have the tag. With one, you can park *anywhere*.

There are good days, and bad days. Having the tag can help make bad days
less bad.

If it's a good day, or you're feeling the need for exercise, use a regular
place. On that really bad day, when you _have_ to go out for something,
don't feel bad about using the close-in spot.

[Andrew Sarangan]

This has also been a problem for me. It seems most people have a phobia about
walking. Even a 10 minute walk seemed too far for many people. Every time I
ask someone how far some place is, they would insist it is too far to walk,
and would give me directions on how to take a bus or trolley etc.. An
example is the EAA museum bus. It is faster to walk there than take the bus,
espeically during the rush hour. I discovered this after waiting for 30
minutes for the bus. Same thing with the trolleys. It is faster to walk than
to wait for the trolleys.

[Dave Butler]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> walking the immense distances OSH requires -- were given carte blanche to go
> anywhere and everywhere with impunity.

I didn't think Blanche was using a carte (ducking)...

Dave

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1122908540.977755@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > walking the immense distances OSH requires -- were given carte blanche
to go
> > anywhere and everywhere with impunity.
>
> I didn't think Blanche was using a carte (ducking)...
>
Hey, why don't you just scoot outta here! :~)

[RST Engineering]

"PPT33R" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Another great OSH. The number and quality of the exhibits seems to
> improve each year.

Speaking as a former exhibitor who cannot afford the rent to be an exhibitor
any more, did you notice how many of the exhibits were government agencies
pimping their state, or their college, or their missile defense services?
Did you notice how many of the exhibits had absolutely nothing to do with
aviation, yet could afford the rent to hawk you everything from superglue to
wood stoves? How many truly innovative newcomers did you find -- that
little jewel company that invented a new widget to save you tons of money
building or flying an aircraft? The last one I know of is Bill Bainbridge
at his little electric shop, and he's been around for thirty years.

As to the number of people, I do a pretty fair job of assessing attendance
by looking at the parking lots, both on the airport and at the UWO dorms.
If EAA comes out with a "record crowd" pronouncement (which they have to do
by Rogan's Law -- "grow or die") then somebody is puffing funny weed.

> The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
> to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'.

So long as EAA can make a buck at it, there will be an order of magnitude
growth in OSPs for the next couple of years.

Now, I've read this whole thread about who should and who should not be
allowed a scooter, and all I can say at this time is that I thought ham
radio had the market cornered with people sitting around ****ing and moaning
about their gall bladder operations, their hip replacements, and their
various and sundry ailments. I guess a few of them have escaped to the
world of aviation {;-)


More ... MUCH more ... later. It is good to be home.


Jim

[john smith]

Andrew, you haven't told us about your travels via the big bird???

[Andrew Sarangan]

What can I say.. I got to experience the thrill and adventure of taking
the airline to OSH. Drove during Friday rush hour to make it to the
Cincinnati airport. Flew to Appleton. On the way back, the flight got
cancelled. They bussed everyone to Green Bay with a $7 dinner voucher.
Still made it home on time. Can't really complain because it was a
nonstop service and the fare was only $200.

Noteworthy is a great guy named Scott Wilson (another rec.aviation
pilot). We never met before, but he was kind enough to offer me a ride
to and from Appleton. It was nice to know that there are still people
like him out there.

My opinion about taking the airline to OSH.. it is definitely not in the
true sprit of going to OSH. What kind of fly-in would that be if
everyone took the airline? However, if you are going just by yourself
for only a couple of days (like me), then its hard to beat the airline.

This is my third trip there, and all of them have been 2-3 day trips
(it's not by choice; its either that or I don't go at all). My opinion
is that if you have a lot of energy, you can see almost everything in
that time. But there is no time for leisurely breakfasts or late dinners
around the camp fire. I was up at 5am and hit the grounds at 7am. I had
enough time to visit and chat with the vendors in all four exhibit
hangars, aircraft displays, showplanes, federal/NASA pavillions,
flymarket, attend a workshop or two, and attend a few forums. But I
skipped the majority of the airshow. I even had time to go to the
Pioneer field and take a helicopter ride. The ultralights area was great
too. It was hectic. But on the other hand, I like it this way because I
usually get edgy if I have to sit around too much.

My only complaint is the food. I wish they had a healthy alternative.
With all the talk about FAA medicals, blood pressure, diabetes etc.. I
found it ironic that everyone was lining up for icecream, burgers, fries
and coke.






john smith > wrote in news:aAsHe.42820$B52.18911
@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com:

> Andrew, you haven't told us about your travels via the big bird???
>

[Darrel Toepfer]

RST Engineering wrote:

> It is good to be home.

And the election results were? When you get time... ;)

[RST Engineering]

The EAA Board selected two other individuals for the Board, but they really
came with excellent credentials. I do NOT believe that the "old boy"
network was at work in this year's elections.

Jim



"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
...
> RST Engineering wrote:
>
>> It is good to be home.
>
> And the election results were? When you get time... ;)

[David J. Zera]

\>later. It is good to be home.

Jim,

boy I can understand that "good to be home" I was there working for about 12
hours a days on the flight line "boy do I have a tan!" I had a great time
working, boy the first weekend was HOT!

Ps. by the way I have a Honda scooter and a Gator that I use! ( oh boy !!! I
am ducking ) but I do take it VERY slow in ped areas and try to keep it to
the taxiways!

Pss. you can see my volunteer group in the photo gallery under the
24th-25th. we are the group that had the Latin statement in it! we had to
hide all the single malt before the EAA photo tog would take the picture....
I was told that they want the world to believe that their is not booze in
camp ground... ha ha!

David J. Zera
Co-Chairman
Safety / Flight line
AirVenture 2006

[George Patterson]

RST Engineering wrote:
>
> More ... MUCH more ... later. It is good to be home.

Glad you made it without incident.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[UltraJohn]

RST Engineering wrote:

> The EAA Board selected two other individuals for the Board, but they
> really
> came with excellent credentials. I do NOT believe that the "old boy"
> network was at work in this year's elections.
>
> Jim
>
Classy reply Jim
John

[Jay Honeck]

>> walking the immense distances OSH requires -- were given carte blanche to
>> go anywhere and everywhere with impunity.
>
> I didn't think Blanche was using a carte (ducking)...

Ooo, that's bad.

Had anyone heard from Blanche? We had breakfast with her right before we
departed on Sunday morning, and she was stuck waiting for weather...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[StellaStarr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>walking the immense distances OSH requires -- were given carte blanche to
>>>go anywhere and everywhere with impunity.
>>
>>I didn't think Blanche was using a carte (ducking)...
>
>
> Ooo, that's bad.
>
> Had anyone heard from Blanche? We had breakfast with her right before we
> departed on Sunday morning, and she was stuck waiting for weather...

Waiting for something different than the weather we all took off in? I
headed back to DSM but it sounded like y'all were making pretty good
time. That was a heck of a tailwind you had. OTOH, I was barely keeping
up with trucks on the freeway!

[Morgans]

"PPT33R" > wrote

> The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
> to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'. I don't
> ever remember getting run down by OSP in the past at OSH. There is now
> a large 'scooter rental' right inside the gates.

Your rant is off base. First, the rental has has been there the 6 years I
have been. Second, what do you have against overweight people?

>Granted, some people
> actually NEED these things to get around, but I didn't see any,

You didn't look hard enough.

> and I
> doubt they would hold an airman's certificate.

The show is not just for certificated people. All who enjoy aviation are
invited.

>They were ALL George
> Costanza wannabes (recall the Seinfeld episode with the 'great scooter
> chase'), and I don't think ANY were paid EAA Members.

Again you are wrong. I myself know of an 80 plus year old EAA'er that
injured himself WATER SKIING, and he didn't appear to be that old, or be in
need of a scooter.

> So, EAA won't let
> me ride my bicycle from the far end of the North 40 to the Forum
> Pavillions,

Nope. Lord of Lord, can you imagine what would happen if just one bike from
each plane on the north 40 was let loose on the grounds? -shudder-

>but OSP can run people down in the exhibit hangars and go
> wherever the hell they want?

If you have a problem with the actions of "a" scooter rider, then "educate"
that one person, and stop blaming the whole subset of scooter riders.

You can ride your bike or scooter to the gate where the North 40 joins the
grounds, and walk from there, just like "everyone else" on foot.

>It makes NO sense to me,

See above.

> I am more afraid
> of the 300lb'er not looking where they are driving their scooter.

Come now, are you a man or a mouse?

> I made a comment to EAA about this, it really bothered me. If you have a
> note from your doctor, OK, but just being lazy ****es me off.

I one year soon, will be unable to see what I want to see, without a scooter
(bad back; two surgeries with no improvement), but do not qualify for a
doctor's note. There is a difference to be made about the ability to get
around, and the ability to get all of the way around OSH.

> If the
> invasion of the OSP continues, it will eventually be enough to dissuade
> me from attending in the future...

Far be it from me to dissuade anyone from attending OSH, but if you think
you are so above everyone else that is not allowed to ride bikes, and are so
afraid of a few scooters, ...
don't let the screen door hit you on the way out.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote

> Think about people like me next time you dismiss somebody as "really
> aren't handicapped" just because you can't see anything wrong with them.

Thanks, Paul. My thoughts exactly. As far as your pain goes, I am one of
you.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

">
> I think the problem comes in when you have folks who are able to get
> around, even if it's painful, but then there are those who really can't
> get around even if they want to.

So who will judge who will get what accommodation? You? I hope not.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

> As for pain, learn to live with it. It has become my special friend,
> and it can be yours. I had a very low pain threshold before I went on
> this campaign to singlehandedly destroy my body through misuse, but now
> I live with it every day, once I learned to grow up and get over it.

How dare you? HOW DARE YOU JUDGE?

People have different problems, different bodies, and differing needs. How
DARE you say to another person, "learn to live with it." If You were right
next to me right now, I would reach over and kick your ass as many times as
I could, until stopped by somebody, or by pain.

Get a life, get a whatever, but most of all,
GET A CLUE!
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
...
> Jonathan
>
> in the spirit of bringing it a little bit back on topic :-)
>
> you wouldn't believe how few airports have handicap
> parking spots for aircraft (actually, the only time
> I remember I had such a spot reserved was on an AFB,
> believe it or not, these guys are great :-)
>
> one of these days I would really like to go to OSH;
> snag is, it looks like it involves an awful lot of
> walking (as pointed out by another poster) and I heard
> that scooters and such were not allowed on the grounds;
>
> anyone out there who has mobility limitations has gone
> to OSH (flying that is) and could tell me about it?
>
> --Sylvain

Bring it on! There is parking, scooters are allowed, and charging will be
tricky, but I'm sure, doable.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Richard Riley" > wrote

> Jim - find another doctor.

Been there, done that.
>
> I'll bet real money that a local chiropractor would help.

Three plus months. Also, accupunture, pain management, injecions and all,
(two years), othos, neuros, physical therapy,and a few more I didn't
mention..

I have degenerative disks, and permenant nerve damage. My back hurts, and
my leg and foot. My foot feels as it is severely bruised; like it has been
beaten on the bottom with a hammer. Yet I go on, as there is no other
choice.

>If not with
> the pain or the underlying condition, at least with the note.

I'll get the note, when it is time. I'm not there yet. With pain meds, a
nap will get me back for the rest of the day, for now.

> I'm not "one of you" (rapping of wood) but I'm on your side.

I'm glad you're not. The message I always try to get out, is to take care
of you back. You only get one, and they usually don't get better.

>I think
> pain is horribly undermedicated and underaccomodated in this country.

Yep. Still, you are treated almost as a criminal (or addict), when you try
to get what can make life almost bearable.

>
> I know that this thread is crossposted, but if anyone in
> Rec.Aviation.Homebuilt objects to overweight, pain racked people
> getting around airshows in a scooter, I would like to remind them that
> our own Tony Pucillo used one in his last year or two at Sun n Fun.
>
> (blue skies, Tony)

Yep, I never met him, but wish I did. I hope EVERYONE will take an example,
and try not to let a physical ailment stand in the way of what you love.
I'll try to make that vow, myself.
--
Jim in NC

[Darrel Toepfer]

Morgans wrote:

>>I know that this thread is crossposted, but if anyone in
>>Rec.Aviation.Homebuilt objects to overweight, pain racked people
>>getting around airshows in a scooter, I would like to remind them that
>>our own Tony Pucillo used one in his last year or two at Sun n Fun.
>>
>>(blue skies, Tony)
>
> Yep, I never met him, but wish I did. I hope EVERYONE will take an example,
> and try not to let a physical ailment stand in the way of what you love.
> I'll try to make that vow, myself.

I think I've seen pictures of Zoom on one at Sun'N'fun...

[Tom McQuinn]

Not responding to any one post.........

There were times I wondered whether some of the scooter people were just
lazy but I just had to remind myself that I wouldn't be qualified to
judge the extent of their maladies anyway, and settle for being glad
that I didn't need one. I can't honestly say that we personally had a
close call with a scooter. But when the day comes that I can't walk
mile after mile, I hope that I have the option to use one to see my last
couple of Airventures. (And I hope that's 40 years from now.)

Some of the four wheeled Gator/golf cart/whatever vehicles were another
matter. Not that I qualify for special treatment, but my seven year old
is hearing impaired - requires extra vigilance when mixing with traffic.
Seems to me that seven years old = has the attention span of an Irish
Setter, but maybe that's just my kids. And having those damn things
zipping on and off of the roads at any and every point imaginable, while
expecting the mere pedestrians to part like Moses was coming through,
startled me a few times. I'm half afraid that one of us will get run
over and half afraid that I'll punch somebody. I saw plenty of safe and
courteous drivers but there were way too many fools. I can't help but
wonder if a lot of the vendors wouldn't think twice about running down
the pedestrians if every vendor cart was required to have a large logo
identifying the company operating it. Maybe not, 'How's my driving? -
call 1 800 xxx xxxx' hasn't exactly been a roaring success.

As for the various comments about the dairy industry and the fast food
industry, does anyone really think they are to blame for the menu
choices? Honestly?? You don't think that the food service industry
would step up if they could make a buck selling healthy food? Sorry,
but I think they would replace every bacon cheeseburger in America with
tofu salads or heroin milkshakes (if heroin was legal) in about 30 days
if that's what people were spending their cash for. Their job is to
produce goods and services at a profit and our job is to reward them for
doing it to our liking. We as a country could fix this if we wanted to.

This is my third year in a row at Osh and the second time I've had a
department store tent fail me. Never again. My 'C' brand tent with its
'guarantee' to keep me dry is going to a yard sale and I don't care if
it sells for 75 cents. It isn't worth the closet space it would
otherwise take up. I am very interested in any brands of tent that
anyone could recommend. Because if I do this again I intend to stay dry
somehow. I did notice that some of the manufacturers make rain flys
that will keep water out as long as the tent is standing. I gotta get
me one of those!

All in all that was a fantastic show and it's amazing that they can put
something like that together with volunteer labor. Thanks to each and
every one of you sunburned people who made it happen.

Tom McQuinn

[Dave]

You want to see really sad pain?

Watch "The Boy Whos Skin Fell Off".

Now there is a man who has lived with pain all his life. He made this
documentary during the last 8 months of his life to show people what its
like to live with his condition.

I have some pretty serious back problems, but I just deal with it, and feel
lucky I'm not him.

Dave

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "PPT33R" > wrote
>
>> The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
>> to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'. I don't
>> ever remember getting run down by OSP in the past at OSH. There is now
>> a large 'scooter rental' right inside the gates.
>
> Your rant is off base. First, the rental has has been there the 6 years I
> have been. Second, what do you have against overweight people?
>
>>Granted, some people
>> actually NEED these things to get around, but I didn't see any,
>
> You didn't look hard enough.
>
>> and I
>> doubt they would hold an airman's certificate.
>
> The show is not just for certificated people. All who enjoy aviation are
> invited.
>
>>They were ALL George
>> Costanza wannabes (recall the Seinfeld episode with the 'great scooter
>> chase'), and I don't think ANY were paid EAA Members.
>
> Again you are wrong. I myself know of an 80 plus year old EAA'er that
> injured himself WATER SKIING, and he didn't appear to be that old, or be
> in
> need of a scooter.
>
>> So, EAA won't let
>> me ride my bicycle from the far end of the North 40 to the Forum
>> Pavillions,
>
> Nope. Lord of Lord, can you imagine what would happen if just one bike
> from
> each plane on the north 40 was let loose on the grounds? -shudder-
>
>>but OSP can run people down in the exhibit hangars and go
>> wherever the hell they want?
>
> If you have a problem with the actions of "a" scooter rider, then
> "educate"
> that one person, and stop blaming the whole subset of scooter riders.
>
> You can ride your bike or scooter to the gate where the North 40 joins the
> grounds, and walk from there, just like "everyone else" on foot.
>
>>It makes NO sense to me,
>
> See above.
>
>> I am more afraid
>> of the 300lb'er not looking where they are driving their scooter.
>
> Come now, are you a man or a mouse?
>
>> I made a comment to EAA about this, it really bothered me. If you have a
>> note from your doctor, OK, but just being lazy ****es me off.
>
> I one year soon, will be unable to see what I want to see, without a
> scooter
> (bad back; two surgeries with no improvement), but do not qualify for a
> doctor's note. There is a difference to be made about the ability to get
> around, and the ability to get all of the way around OSH.
>
>> If the
>> invasion of the OSP continues, it will eventually be enough to dissuade
>> me from attending in the future...
>
> Far be it from me to dissuade anyone from attending OSH, but if you think
> you are so above everyone else that is not allowed to ride bikes, and are
> so
> afraid of a few scooters, ...
> don't let the screen door hit you on the way out.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[W P Dixon]

It's really strange that most people I talk to that easily could get
handicapped parking and such really want no part of it, myself included. I
do see a ton of obese people that use them and the little electric carts in
WalMart and you just have to wonder if they would walk alittle more maybe
they would not be in that situation. Most people, not all ,mind you are
obese because they do not know when to put the fork down and I do not see
how that is considered a handicap.
I won't get a handicap parking sticker because I figure there is someone
out there that may need that closer spot more than I do, if I hobble along
with a cane from time to time so be it. No big deal, and no pain no gain! I
don't have anything against overweight people but it gets my goat to see one
get a parking spot at the front of a store when a family is trying to get
their child out of a van with MS or something and trying to unload a
wheelchair and the fat person "thinks" they are handicapped and are required
to park close because of laziness.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> You want to see really sad pain?
>
> Watch "The Boy Whos Skin Fell Off".
>
> Now there is a man who has lived with pain all his life. He made this
> documentary during the last 8 months of his life to show people what its
> like to live with his condition.
>
> I have some pretty serious back problems, but I just deal with it, and
> feel lucky I'm not him.
>
> Dave
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "PPT33R" > wrote
>>
>>> The one thing that really ****ed me off this year (and I will proceed
>>> to rant about) was the invasion of the 'obese scooter people'. I don't
>>> ever remember getting run down by OSP in the past at OSH. There is now
>>> a large 'scooter rental' right inside the gates.
>>
>> Your rant is off base. First, the rental has has been there the 6 years
>> I
>> have been. Second, what do you have against overweight people?
>>
>>>Granted, some people
>>> actually NEED these things to get around, but I didn't see any,
>>
>> You didn't look hard enough.
>>
>>> and I
>>> doubt they would hold an airman's certificate.
>>
>> The show is not just for certificated people. All who enjoy aviation are
>> invited.
>>
>>>They were ALL George
>>> Costanza wannabes (recall the Seinfeld episode with the 'great scooter
>>> chase'), and I don't think ANY were paid EAA Members.
>>
>> Again you are wrong. I myself know of an 80 plus year old EAA'er that
>> injured himself WATER SKIING, and he didn't appear to be that old, or be
>> in
>> need of a scooter.
>>
>>> So, EAA won't let
>>> me ride my bicycle from the far end of the North 40 to the Forum
>>> Pavillions,
>>
>> Nope. Lord of Lord, can you imagine what would happen if just one bike
>> from
>> each plane on the north 40 was let loose on the grounds? -shudder-
>>
>>>but OSP can run people down in the exhibit hangars and go
>>> wherever the hell they want?
>>
>> If you have a problem with the actions of "a" scooter rider, then
>> "educate"
>> that one person, and stop blaming the whole subset of scooter riders.
>>
>> You can ride your bike or scooter to the gate where the North 40 joins
>> the
>> grounds, and walk from there, just like "everyone else" on foot.
>>
>>>It makes NO sense to me,
>>
>> See above.
>>
>>> I am more afraid
>>> of the 300lb'er not looking where they are driving their scooter.
>>
>> Come now, are you a man or a mouse?
>>
>>> I made a comment to EAA about this, it really bothered me. If you have a
>>> note from your doctor, OK, but just being lazy ****es me off.
>>
>> I one year soon, will be unable to see what I want to see, without a
>> scooter
>> (bad back; two surgeries with no improvement), but do not qualify for a
>> doctor's note. There is a difference to be made about the ability to get
>> around, and the ability to get all of the way around OSH.
>>
>>> If the
>>> invasion of the OSP continues, it will eventually be enough to dissuade
>>> me from attending in the future...
>>
>> Far be it from me to dissuade anyone from attending OSH, but if you think
>> you are so above everyone else that is not allowed to ride bikes, and are
>> so
>> afraid of a few scooters, ...
>> don't let the screen door hit you on the way out.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>>
>
>

[Dave Butler]

Tom McQuinn wrote:

> This is my third year in a row at Osh and the second time I've had a
> department store tent fail me. Never again. My 'C' brand tent with its
> 'guarantee' to keep me dry is going to a yard sale and I don't care if
> it sells for 75 cents. It isn't worth the closet space it would
> otherwise take up. I am very interested in any brands of tent that
> anyone could recommend. Because if I do this again I intend to stay dry
> somehow. I did notice that some of the manufacturers make rain flys
> that will keep water out as long as the tent is standing. I gotta get
> me one of those!

Did you use seam-sealer on the department store tent before you used it?

I've had a couple of bad experiences with thunderstorms camping at Oshkosh, and
finally got this tent for this year:

http://www.arequip.com/Products/Black%20Diamond%20Lighthouse.htm

Caution: Black Diamond calls this a 2-person tent, but I wouldn't recommend it
for more than one person, even if the 2 people are very good friends.

I went to sleep with the lightning flashing and thunder crashing on Monday
night. There were (maybe) 10 drops of water inside the tent. I had spent half a
day with the tube of seam-sealer before leaving home, time well spent.

You can see it set up on the North 40 here:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?B3B15378B

Dave

[RST Engineering]

Are you kidding? I'll bet upwards of $5mil was charged at Oshkosh last
week.

{;-)


Jim

>
> Bring it on! There is parking, scooters are allowed, and charging will be
> tricky, but I'm sure, doable.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Jim Burns]

I saw it. He was a pretty remarkable guy. Very courageous. Very humbleing
to watch.
Jim

[John T]

Rule number one with any tent, cheap or quality, is to go over it with
seam sealer before actual use!

John

[john smith]

After seeing others experience with tents at AirVenture '05, I am going
to write an article to post prior to AirVenture '06 about what to look
for in a tent that will keep you dry and stay where you place it.

However, since you are asking now, here are a few quick suggestions so
you may seek and purchase a tent at a discount this Fall when stores are
discounting this Summer's merchandise.

o Three season tent with full rain fly. Single wall tents are lighter,
but do not breath because they are coated to seal out the water. As I
have told others, in 25 years the only weather I have not yet seen at
OSH is snow.

o Look for a tent that has a full rain fly, not those little umbrella
sun shade things that some tents have. You want a rain fly that goes
almost all the way to the ground, completely covering the inner tent.
You want a fly that is factory seam sealed.

o Bathtub floor. The waterproof tent bottom that comes up the sides of
the tent six to eight inches.

o Ground cloth. I use TYVEK, the vapor barrior material that is wrapped
around new house construction. Find a scrap in the dumpster or ask the
construction crew to save you a piece. (Check with a local Boy Scout
troop to see if they have a roll that they will sell you a piece from.)
Cut it to the shape of your tent's footprint so it is two-inches from
the edge all around. If it is the same dimension or larger than your
tent's footprint, water draining off the fly can be caught on top of the
ground cloth and flow under your tent. Although the bathtub is
waterproof, water will still seep through microscopic holes and make the
inside of your tent wet.

How many people will be sleeping in the tent?

Do you need/want a stand-up size or a crawl-into size?

Metal poles vice fiberglass poles? I prefer metal, but the most
important feature of the tent will be multiple lash points for guying.
If you have sufficient guys/tie-down points, it will withstand very
strong wind.

Domes/A-frame/rectangular shape. Think airflow. How will the surface of
the tent deflect the wind and rain? Domes generally allow the greatest
interior volume and best wind/rain shedding.

Visit a backpacking store or good sporting goods store and try out the
different models. Read BACKPACKER magazine. Google "backpacking+gear
reviews" for websites and read what users have to say.

Onlines websites:
www.campmor.com
www.rei.com
www.northernmountain.com
www.sierratradingpost.com
(these are the ones I commonly check for sales)
there are many others, including the manufacturers websites.

Remember, this is a brief overview, there is lots to discuss.

[[email protected]]

I agree with the above...
>From my own personal experience, the Sierra Designs 3 season tents are
a good bet. I've already worn one out (after many years of camping).
When I worked for the National Park Service, they used North Face. We
used them on the north rim of Grand Canyon where any type of weather
could be encountered (including snow on June 6th one year!). My best
friend has a Moss that he likes very much.
Just my 2 cents, but I used to spend alot of time in tents (not as much
anymore).

Ryan

[Montblack]

("Dave Butler" wrote)
>> This is my third year in a row at Osh and the second time I've had a
>> department store tent fail me. Never again.

> I went to sleep with the lightning flashing and thunder crashing on Monday
> night. There were (maybe) 10 drops of water inside the tent. I had spent
> half a day with the tube of seam-sealer before leaving home, time well
> spent.


1994 Dodge Grand Caravan. Foam padding strip in the window where the camping
extension cord enters - to connect to the power strip :-)

I put a board across the two front seat armrests. Mmm ...12" fan all night.
Dry all week too!

I was 2 miles south of the Ultralights on Old Knapp Rd. In the morning I
would swing by the ultralights for some 7 am viewing, then drive around to
the N40 for breakfast. Plenty of free parking up by the Super 8, Hilton,
Penny's, Friar Tuck's - but not in their lots!!

At night I'd hop in the minivan, get on 41, head south of the museum one
exit to N/26, go east 1/2 mile, then turn south one mile. Circle R
Campground. Nice, but they do need more than 3 showers!!!


Montblack

[john smith]

wrote:
> I agree with the above...
>>From my own personal experience, the Sierra Designs 3 season tents are
> a good bet. I've already worn one out (after many years of camping).
> When I worked for the National Park Service, they used North Face. We
> used them on the north rim of Grand Canyon where any type of weather
> could be encountered (including snow on June 6th one year!). My best
> friend has a Moss that he likes very much.

I used a North Face Roadrunner 22. On Monday night, the rain was
sufficiently heavy and the wind sufficiently strong to drive some rain
through the entry zippers of the fly, creating a small drip. I kept my
Packtowl handy and absorbed the small amount that leaked through.
The wind also managed to blow a small amount of rain between the tent
footprint and the tent floor. Tuesday morning, I removed the fly,
unstaked the tent, lifted it up and wiped the moisture away. I put
everything back the way it was and didn't have any further problems the
rest of the week

Moss was bought out by MSR several years ago. You will find some of the
Moss design characteristics still exist in their product line.

[PPT33R]

John has a great idea on OSH 06 camping tips. Probably a new thread
altogether.

I personally prefer the Mountain Hardware or North Face line, then
again I do more camping than just OSH, so it is more of an investment.

I agree with all the basic technical specs. Can't emphasize the full
rainfly enough. I have tried the single-wall, and don't like them one
bit. I would rather carry the extra weight on my back and pack in the
rainfly and ground sheet.

Another helpful hint for the inevitable thunderstorm at least one
evening: softie ear plugs and eye shades. I slept through every big
storm for the past 3 years, except when I had to get up to redeposit my
beer...

[Bob Chilcoat]

We have a 35-year old French ridge tent with a solid vinyl molded bottom.
We've had 2" of water running under the tent in a downpour and absolutely no
leaks. It has a separate rainfly that goes all the way to the ground. Not
high tech -- it's just waterproofed cotton, but we've never gotten wet. We
bought it in the UK in the early 70's and have camped all around the UK and
Europe and here in the US. OTOH, it's pretty heavy and bulky. We've since
bought a couple of different "high-tech" nylon dome tents with fiberglass
poles, but none of them measured up to that old tent. If we knew it was
likely to rain, we'd take that.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> After seeing others experience with tents at AirVenture '05, I am going to
> write an article to post prior to AirVenture '06 about what to look for in
> a tent that will keep you dry and stay where you place it.
>
> However, since you are asking now, here are a few quick suggestions so you
> may seek and purchase a tent at a discount this Fall when stores are
> discounting this Summer's merchandise.
>
> o Three season tent with full rain fly. Single wall tents are lighter, but
> do not breath because they are coated to seal out the water. As I have
> told others, in 25 years the only weather I have not yet seen at OSH is
> snow.
>
> o Look for a tent that has a full rain fly, not those little umbrella sun
> shade things that some tents have. You want a rain fly that goes almost
> all the way to the ground, completely covering the inner tent. You want a
> fly that is factory seam sealed.
>
> o Bathtub floor. The waterproof tent bottom that comes up the sides of the
> tent six to eight inches.
>
> o Ground cloth. I use TYVEK, the vapor barrior material that is wrapped
> around new house construction. Find a scrap in the dumpster or ask the
> construction crew to save you a piece. (Check with a local Boy Scout troop
> to see if they have a roll that they will sell you a piece from.) Cut it
> to the shape of your tent's footprint so it is two-inches from the edge
> all around. If it is the same dimension or larger than your tent's
> footprint, water draining off the fly can be caught on top of the ground
> cloth and flow under your tent. Although the bathtub is waterproof, water
> will still seep through microscopic holes and make the inside of your tent
> wet.
>
> How many people will be sleeping in the tent?
>
> Do you need/want a stand-up size or a crawl-into size?
>
> Metal poles vice fiberglass poles? I prefer metal, but the most important
> feature of the tent will be multiple lash points for guying. If you have
> sufficient guys/tie-down points, it will withstand very strong wind.
>
> Domes/A-frame/rectangular shape. Think airflow. How will the surface of
> the tent deflect the wind and rain? Domes generally allow the greatest
> interior volume and best wind/rain shedding.
>
> Visit a backpacking store or good sporting goods store and try out the
> different models. Read BACKPACKER magazine. Google "backpacking+gear
> reviews" for websites and read what users have to say.
>
> Onlines websites:
> www.campmor.com
> www.rei.com
> www.northernmountain.com
> www.sierratradingpost.com
> (these are the ones I commonly check for sales)
> there are many others, including the manufacturers websites.
>
> Remember, this is a brief overview, there is lots to discuss.

[Matt Whiting]

Tom McQuinn wrote:

> This is my third year in a row at Osh and the second time I've had a
> department store tent fail me. Never again. My 'C' brand tent with its
> 'guarantee' to keep me dry is going to a yard sale and I don't care if
> it sells for 75 cents. It isn't worth the closet space it would
> otherwise take up. I am very interested in any brands of tent that
> anyone could recommend. Because if I do this again I intend to stay dry
> somehow. I did notice that some of the manufacturers make rain flys
> that will keep water out as long as the tent is standing. I gotta get
> me one of those!

I have a Coleman Classic tent that is more than 20 years old now. I
don't know if Coleman even sells it, but it survived the storms of OSH
in 1995. It is an 8x10 and has something like 16 or 18 peg loops around
the bottom. I carry an ammo box with rail road spikes to use as tent
pegs. My friend teased me about carrying all of that weight to OSH (but
the Skylane was easily up to the task!), but he stopped teasing me when
my tent was one of the few that survived the thunderstorms intact and
even dry inside.

This isn't a lightweight tent and isn't made for backpacking, but it is
a robust tent that doesn't leak and has held up well during 20 some
years of use. I'm on the second fly as they don't hold up well due to
the tension on them, but the tent is still in decent shape.

Matt

[Morgans]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Are you kidding? I'll bet upwards of $5mil was charged at Oshkosh last
> week.
>
> {;-)

Yep, and I added to that, also. ;-)

You will have to be careful now, Jim. I have quite a picture of your return
bike ride. <g> Out of shape? ;-)
--
Jim in NC

P.S.I'll get on that recipe we talked about, tomorrow.

[RDR]

Is this the summer of the dicount tent?

[Blanche]

PPT33R > wrote:
>John has a great idea on OSH 06 camping tips. Probably a new thread
>altogether.

My idea?

Next year in Vegas!

Air conditioned hotel rooms
World-class restaurants
And...a chance to win back part of the expenses

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote
>
> 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan. Foam padding strip in the window where the
camping
> extension cord enters - to connect to the power strip :-)
>

I did the same thing in my Astro minivan. I also put a small window AC in
the back, leaving the one back door open, filling in the extra area with a
piece of cardboard duct taped in. Worked great, although this year, the AC
was not needed, much. A quick nap helped my bad back, in the middle of the
day.

Damn ants figured out that they could climb the power cord, and munch on
whatever crumbs were left around. Ant spray poison for that, next year.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote

> I think I've seen pictures of Zoom on one at Sun'N'fun...

Ouch! I hope you are not including me, and others who use a scooter, with
zoom!
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.]

"RDR" > wrote in message
news:vTTHe.98570$5V4.23239@pd7tw3no...
> Is this the summer of the dicount tent?

That would be perfect if not for the typo - "discount". I love it !! LOL.

Rich S.

[Montblack]

("Blanche" wrote)
> My idea?
>
> Next year in Vegas!
>
> Air conditioned hotel rooms
> World-class restaurants
> And...a chance to win back part of the expenses


Are you back home? Plane still for sale?

50/50 is (Black or Red) (Odd or Even) at the roulette wheel - that's about
it. Most everything else in Vegas is house advantage. Good luck.


Montblack

[Darrel Toepfer]

Morgans wrote:

>>I think I've seen pictures of Zoom on one at Sun'N'fun...
>
> Ouch! I hope you are not including me, and others who use a scooter, with
> zoom!

Have you looped, spun and rolled it? If not, you aren't in his class of
people...

[Rich S.]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>
> 50/50 is (Black or Red) (Odd or Even) at the roulette wheel - that's about
> it. Most everything else in Vegas is house advantage. Good luck.

Roulette is one of the worst odds games - almost as bad as "Wheel of
Fortune".

Rich S.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Montblack > wrote:
> ("Blanche" wrote)
> > My idea?
> >
> > Next year in Vegas!
> >
> > Air conditioned hotel rooms
> > World-class restaurants
> > And...a chance to win back part of the expenses


> Are you back home? Plane still for sale?

> 50/50 is (Black or Red) (Odd or Even) at the roulette wheel - that's about
> it. Most everything else in Vegas is house advantage. Good luck.


> Montblack

Nope, you forgot about green; the house has the advantage.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote
>
> That would be perfect if not for the typo - "discount". I love it !! LOL.
>
What kind of accommodations did you stay in? I saw your plane, but never
caught up with you.

By the way, you had one of the nicest planes in the HB show area, IMHO.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote

> Have you looped, spun and rolled it? If not, you aren't in his class of
> people...

I rode a corkscrew roller coaster one time, and I think it did all of that.
That counts, right? <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Montblack > wrote:
>("Blanche" wrote)
>> My idea?
>>
>> Next year in Vegas!
>>
>> Air conditioned hotel rooms
>> World-class restaurants
>> And...a chance to win back part of the expenses
>
>
>Are you back home? Plane still for sale?
>
>50/50 is (Black or Red) (Odd or Even) at the roulette wheel - that's about
>it. Most everything else in Vegas is house advantage. Good luck.

Not even 50/50 on those. if the d*mn 0 or 00 come up, you lose either of
those bets. which makes the actual odds of winning 47.36+:52.63+ A 'mere'
5.55% 'advantage' to the house.

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Bob Chilcoat > wrote:
>We have a 35-year old French ridge tent with a solid vinyl molded bottom.
>We've had 2" of water running under the tent in a downpour and absolutely no
>leaks. It has a separate rainfly that goes all the way to the ground. Not
>high tech -- it's just waterproofed cotton, but we've never gotten wet.

Ah well, I've got a circa 55 year old "Ted Williams" (the Sears, Roebuck &
Co., house brand in those days) umbrella tent. purported 6-person, with an
*inside*frame* (a design few people have even "heard of" these days :)
Integral fully water-proof floor -- not sure what the treatment is. but
like Bob described, have had streams running under the tent, with no water
inside. Rain fly? _What_ rain fly? Didn't come with one, doesn't _need_
one. It's a _very_ tight-weave cloth -- cotton duck?? -- and water just
_doesn't_ go through it -- not even in torrential rains and high winds. And
we've _never_ had to use any supplemental treatment on it -- no 'seam sealer',
nothing to 'renew' the waterproofing, not -anything-.

Yeah, it's heavy and bulky. No, I wouldn't _dream_ of using it for back-
packing. But I *wish* I could buy something approximately as good _today_.

I can't even find anybody who could _custom-manufacture_ a duplicate.

> We
>bought it in the UK in the early 70's and have camped all around the UK and
>Europe and here in the US. OTOH, it's pretty heavy and bulky. We've since
>bought a couple of different "high-tech" nylon dome tents with fiberglass
>poles, but none of them measured up to that old tent. If we knew it was
>likely to rain, we'd take that.
>
>--
>Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
>
>"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
>> After seeing others experience with tents at AirVenture '05, I am going to
>> write an article to post prior to AirVenture '06 about what to look for in
>> a tent that will keep you dry and stay where you place it.
>>
>> However, since you are asking now, here are a few quick suggestions so you
>> may seek and purchase a tent at a discount this Fall when stores are
>> discounting this Summer's merchandise.
>>
>> o Three season tent with full rain fly. Single wall tents are lighter, but
>> do not breath because they are coated to seal out the water. As I have
>> told others, in 25 years the only weather I have not yet seen at OSH is
>> snow.
>>
>> o Look for a tent that has a full rain fly, not those little umbrella sun
>> shade things that some tents have. You want a rain fly that goes almost
>> all the way to the ground, completely covering the inner tent. You want a
>> fly that is factory seam sealed.
>>
>> o Bathtub floor. The waterproof tent bottom that comes up the sides of the
>> tent six to eight inches.
>>
>> o Ground cloth. I use TYVEK, the vapor barrior material that is wrapped
>> around new house construction. Find a scrap in the dumpster or ask the
>> construction crew to save you a piece. (Check with a local Boy Scout troop
>> to see if they have a roll that they will sell you a piece from.) Cut it
>> to the shape of your tent's footprint so it is two-inches from the edge
>> all around. If it is the same dimension or larger than your tent's
>> footprint, water draining off the fly can be caught on top of the ground
>> cloth and flow under your tent. Although the bathtub is waterproof, water
>> will still seep through microscopic holes and make the inside of your tent
>> wet.
>>
>> How many people will be sleeping in the tent?
>>
>> Do you need/want a stand-up size or a crawl-into size?
>>
>> Metal poles vice fiberglass poles? I prefer metal, but the most important
>> feature of the tent will be multiple lash points for guying. If you have
>> sufficient guys/tie-down points, it will withstand very strong wind.
>>
>> Domes/A-frame/rectangular shape. Think airflow. How will the surface of
>> the tent deflect the wind and rain? Domes generally allow the greatest
>> interior volume and best wind/rain shedding.
>>
>> Visit a backpacking store or good sporting goods store and try out the
>> different models. Read BACKPACKER magazine. Google "backpacking+gear
>> reviews" for websites and read what users have to say.
>>
>> Onlines websites:
>> www.campmor.com
>> www.rei.com
>> www.northernmountain.com
>> www.sierratradingpost.com
>> (these are the ones I commonly check for sales)
>> there are many others, including the manufacturers websites.
>>
>> Remember, this is a brief overview, there is lots to discuss.
>
>

[Dave Butler]

RDR wrote:
> Is this the summer of the dicount tent?

Ugh.

[Margy]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Tom McQuinn wrote:
>
>> This is my third year in a row at Osh and the second time I've had a
>> department store tent fail me. Never again. My 'C' brand tent with
>> its 'guarantee' to keep me dry is going to a yard sale and I don't
>> care if it sells for 75 cents. It isn't worth the closet space it
>> would otherwise take up. I am very interested in any brands of tent
>> that anyone could recommend. Because if I do this again I intend to
>> stay dry somehow. I did notice that some of the manufacturers make
>> rain flys that will keep water out as long as the tent is standing. I
>> gotta get me one of those!
>
>
> I have a Coleman Classic tent that is more than 20 years old now. I
> don't know if Coleman even sells it, but it survived the storms of OSH
> in 1995. It is an 8x10 and has something like 16 or 18 peg loops around
> the bottom. I carry an ammo box with rail road spikes to use as tent
> pegs. My friend teased me about carrying all of that weight to OSH (but
> the Skylane was easily up to the task!), but he stopped teasing me when
> my tent was one of the few that survived the thunderstorms intact and
> even dry inside.
>
> This isn't a lightweight tent and isn't made for backpacking, but it is
> a robust tent that doesn't leak and has held up well during 20 some
> years of use. I'm on the second fly as they don't hold up well due to
> the tension on them, but the tent is still in decent shape.
>
> Matt
We bought a Eureka after I did extensive research on brands and models.
Somewhere there is/was a website that had wind ratings for tents. I
found that one very interesting. This year I took on a very slight
amount of water as I THOUGHT I didn't have any seam sealer (found an
empty). When I was packing up the tent I found THREE bottles of seam
sealer in the peg bag (Ron pegged the tent). Even without the seams
sealed the tent only took on about a cup of water during Monday's storm.

Margy

[Rich S.]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> What kind of accommodations did you stay in? I saw your plane, but never
> caught up with you.
>
> By the way, you had one of the nicest planes in the HB show area, IMHO.

Jim.............

I had planned to go to the show solo, camping along the way and with friends
at Camp Scholler. Then an old friend who was a WWII B-17 navigator asked to
go along. I couldn't say no (and am glad as heck I didn't!) so I called the
Oshkosh Convention and visitor's bureau at (920)235-3007. Being only about
six weeks before the convention, I didn't expect much.

Surprize, surprize! They gave me ten phone numbers of folks who wanted to
rent out rooms in private homes and told me if I didn't rent one of those -
call back and they'd give me ten more. We rented a single room with two beds
located ten *houses* (1½ blocks) directly North of the airport. A hot
breakfast was included with this air-conditioned lodging and our hostess,
the young wife of a U.S. soldier, was happy to drive us to the store, to the
North gate, and anywhere else we needed to go. All this for $50/night each.

When the "Toonder an' Lightning" was crashing and the rain was pouring down,
I was really glad to be tucked safely in bed.

I'm sorry we didn't get to meet face to face. As a fellow DDD'er, I feel a
kinship. (No, I didn't rent a scooter, but I had to lean on trash cans every
50 yards). I wrote my cell phone number on the propeller card hoping that
would help.

Thanks for the kind words about "Essie". She's getting a little shopworn
after six years but still carried us there and back with dispatch and
comfort. Did you see that green Pietenpol? Perfection! Too bad the owner was
such an egotistical pompous ass, fruitlessly trying to keep all folding
chairs out of the display area. Kind of like holding back the tide.

Rich S.

[George Patterson]

Tom McQuinn wrote:
>
> I am very interested in any brands of tent that
> anyone could recommend.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?U5A232C8B

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:ND4Ie.6501$2y2.4439@trndny02...
> Tom McQuinn wrote:
> >
> > I am very interested in any brands of tent that
> > anyone could recommend.
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?U5A232C8B
>
He said he wanted a tent, not a hangar. :~)

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> He said he wanted a tent, not a hangar. :~)

8' x 8' isn't a hangar. That's only a little larger than the Spaulding dome tent
I use.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[John T]

Actually, Blackjack is about the only game where a player can have the
advantage. Catch is, they need to know basic stragety and counting.
The advantage is pretty small though.

John

[john smith]

> Tom McQuinn wrote:
>> I am very interested in any brands of tent that anyone could recommend.

George Patterson wrote:
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?U5A232C8B

George, that's not a tent!
That's a portable mansion!

[George Patterson]

john smith wrote:
>
> George, that's not a tent!
> That's a portable mansion!

Check the smallest size.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Montblack]

("Rich S." wrote)
[snip]
> (No, I didn't rent a scooter, but I had to lean on trash cans every 50
> yards).


Not DDD, thank goodness, but right leg issues - which then morph into foot
and back issues.

1 Vicodin ....about 10am. Another around 3pm if I was 'walking' around
during the airshow.

State Fair, Oshkosh, (big) tractor show, and anything that puts me on the
ramp at my airport (volunteering) 10 hours a day x three days. All get 1
Vicodin in the late morning.

Other than that, I can quit whenever I want. :-)


Montblack
"Without chemicals, life itself would be impossible"

[Montblack]

("George Patterson" wrote)
>> He said he wanted a tent, not a hangar. :~)

> 8' x 8' isn't a hangar. That's only a little larger than the Spaulding
> dome tent I use.


All this tent talk. For me, it was all about the air mattress this year.
Mine is almost 20" high.


Montblack

[Tom McQuinn]

Actually, I appreciate any and all information I can gather on this.

And even though I didn't know about seam sealer and don't doubt that it
should be used, none of my soakings were from leaking seams. My
problems have always been mechanical - rain flys that seem like an
afterthought and don't keep out blowing rain (or collapse in the wind).

Tom

George Patterson wrote:
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>
>> He said he wanted a tent, not a hangar. :~)
>
>
> 8' x 8' isn't a hangar. That's only a little larger than the Spaulding
> dome tent I use.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Montblack]

("Robert Bonomi" wrote)
>>50/50 is (Black or Red) (Odd or Even) at the roulette wheel - that's about
>>it. Most everything else in Vegas is house advantage. Good luck.

> Not even 50/50 on those. if the d*mn 0 or 00 come up, you lose either
> of those bets. which makes the actual odds of winning 47.36+:52.63+ A
> 'mere' 5.55% 'advantage' to the house.


You're right. Even betting football games (50/50) ... you have to factor in
the juice.


Montblack

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:Ve5Ie.6733$2y2.575@trndny02...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> > He said he wanted a tent, not a hangar. :~)
>
> 8' x 8' isn't a hangar. That's only a little larger than the Spaulding
dome tent
> I use.

Eight Feet? 64 square feet?

What do you camp with, a harem?

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> Eight Feet? 64 square feet?

My air mattress is 4.5'x6'. With the 8'x7' floor of my tent, that is barely
enough room to keep the mattress from touching the walls and let me stick a few
items around the edges. Mine is billed as a "2-person" tent which, as other
posters have already pointed out, really means a "2-pygmy" tent. As I said, the
Cabela's tent isn't much larger.

That extra foot in width would give me enough room to make sure that my bag
wouldn't start a leak by touching the tent wall in the rain. I was also
impressed by the wind test -- I rode out one T-storm in mine and am not anxious
to repeat the experience.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:mj8Ie.17429$QX2.1485@trndny01...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> > Eight Feet? 64 square feet?
>
> My air mattress is 4.5'x6'. With the 8'x7' floor of my tent, that is
barely
> enough room to keep the mattress from touching the walls and let me stick
a few
> items around the edges. Mine is billed as a "2-person" tent which, as
other
> posters have already pointed out, really means a "2-pygmy" tent. As I
said, the
> Cabela's tent isn't much larger.

The picture made it look as big as a garage! :~)
>
> That extra foot in width would give me enough room to make sure that my
bag
> wouldn't start a leak by touching the tent wall in the rain. I was also
> impressed by the wind test -- I rode out one T-storm in mine and am not
anxious
> to repeat the experience.

I stopped "tenting" several years ago when the bones got to rough for that
sort of thing.

Now I take the sissy way out and bought a Coleman pop-up. I actually look
forward to T-storms now.

[Bob Chilcoat]

And if they suspect you're counting, they kick you out, and never let you
come back. I've always thought that that was really crummy. "You're
skilled enough not to lose? Get the hell out of here!"

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"John T" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, Blackjack is about the only game where a player can have the
> advantage. Catch is, they need to know basic stragety and counting.
> The advantage is pretty small though.
>
> John
>

[S Herman]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:45:09 -0500, John T
> wrote:

>Actually, Blackjack is about the only game where a player can have the
>advantage. Catch is, they need to know basic stragety and counting.
>The advantage is pretty small though.
>
>John

And if they suspect you are counting you will be detained & asked to
leave, and your name & picture wil end up on a black list. Counting is
considered cheating. How would they know you are counting, if you do
it all in your head? In reality, if you hang out there long enough,
and win too much, you will be banned, even if they can't figure out
how you're doing it. They reserve the right to refuse service to
anyone. Bottom line, it's entertainment.

[Jay Beckman]

"S Herman" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:45:09 -0500, John T
> > wrote:
>
>>Actually, Blackjack is about the only game where a player can have the
>>advantage. Catch is, they need to know basic stragety and counting.
>>The advantage is pretty small though.
>>
>>John
>
> And if they suspect you are counting you will be detained & asked to
> leave, and your name & picture wil end up on a black list. Counting is
> considered cheating. How would they know you are counting, if you do
> it all in your head? In reality, if you hang out there long enough,
> and win too much, you will be banned, even if they can't figure out
> how you're doing it. They reserve the right to refuse service to
> anyone. Bottom line, it's entertainment.

Nope,

Bottom line is..The Casino's Bottom Line...

It most certainly is not entertainment, it's a business...a very, very, very
big business.

Jay

[Margy]

George Patterson wrote:
> john smith wrote:
>
>>
>> George, that's not a tent!
>> That's a portable mansion!
>
>
> Check the smallest size.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
But they are heavy! I looked around the site and saw the Alaskan
outfitter. There were a number of those in the volunteer section of the
camping area (i.e. folks who have camped at OSH for YEARS)

Margy

[S Herman]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:44:27 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>> anyone. Bottom line, it's entertainment.
>
>Nope,
>
>Bottom line is..The Casino's Bottom Line...
>
>It most certainly is not entertainment, it's a business...a very, very, very
>big business.
>
>Jay
>

I wasn't clear. I meant the gambler should view the games as
entertainment only. You wouldn't expect to come home with more cash
than you took when going to the movies. You should plan the same way
for Casino's. You're certainly correct from the Casino's point of
view.

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> The picture made it look as big as a garage! :~)

The picture is almost certainly their 12x12 model.

> Now I take the sissy way out and bought a Coleman pop-up.

Sort of hard to tow that behind an aircraft.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jay Beckman]

"S Herman" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:44:27 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
> wrote:
>
>>> anyone. Bottom line, it's entertainment.
>>
>>Nope,
>>
>>Bottom line is..The Casino's Bottom Line...
>>
>>It most certainly is not entertainment, it's a business...a very, very,
>>very
>>big business.
>>
>>Jay
>>
>
> I wasn't clear. I meant the gambler should view the games as
> entertainment only. You wouldn't expect to come home with more cash
> than you took when going to the movies. You should plan the same way
> for Casino's. You're certainly correct from the Casino's point of
> view.

Now I see where you were coming from...

You are correct..with the possible exception of Texas Hold 'Em poker rooms.

The learning curve (at the pro level) is extremely steep, but if you have
the patience, fortitude (and the starting bankroll) to really become a
student of the game and of human nature, you can make a living. The top
pros make a very comfortable living. But, of course, the trade off is hours
upon hours upon hours in some very seedy places and lots of sleepless
nights.

Poker may be the other place where to make a million dollars, you have to
start with two million (just like aviation.)

Jay

[George Patterson]

Margy wrote:
>
> But they are heavy!

Absolutely. Not for someone flying a, shall we say, "load-challenged" aircraft.
Tom was, however, looking for a tent that will hold up under weather, and you
can't be certain of that with lightly built gear.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote

>We rented a single room with two beds
> located ten *houses* (1½ blocks) directly North of the airport. A hot
> breakfast was included with this air-conditioned lodging and our hostess,
> the young wife of a U.S. soldier, was happy to drive us to the store, to
the
> North gate, and anywhere else we needed to go. All this for $50/night
each.


Sounds pretty delux! Good going.

> Thanks for the kind words about "Essie". She's getting a little shopworn
> after six years but still carried us there and back with dispatch and
> comfort.

It's nice to see something different, (than RV's).

>Did you see that green Pietenpol? Perfection! Too bad the owner was
> such an egotistical pompous ass, fruitlessly trying to keep all folding
> chairs out of the display area. Kind of like holding back the tide.

Yes I did, and also the Pober Pixie was nice, too. The crowds were so big
Saturday, that the show area was full, all the way back. I have never see
that big of a crowd at OSH! Alsmost makes me think that EAA should provide
larger seating area, before the plane parking area starts. I wouldn't want
to have my plane at the burn line. Margy Natalie (and Ron came later in
the week) had her Navion right at the edge, and it was tough to keep
everyone off of it, completely. If you didn't see it, it is a real beauty!
--
Jim in NC

[PPT33R]

This is exactly why I prefer lightweight mountaineering gear. I can
throw it in the plane and not worry about weight and balance, hump it
in over the mountains, or haul it in the back of my truck.

Oh, and mountaineering gear is designed for even worse weather...

Yes, you pay a bit more (but not much more than the Cabela's heavy
stuff), but I get more use out of it than once a year.

[RST Engineering]

Bullpuckey. I live within rock-throwing distance of Reno. I've been
counting Blackjack for thirty years, ever since "Beat The Dealer" (a
legitimate mathematical treatise by UCSB math prof Edwin Thorpe) hit the
streets. I limit my wins to a hundred dollars or two, and I suck on diet
coke or orange juice to keep my head straight.

I lose one out of ten times. That happens. I either win two hundred or
lose two hundred at table minimum bets. Sure, it takes me three hours to
win/lose the money, but making a hundred bucks an hour having fun ain't all
that bad a deal.

I'm a HAPPY winner. I make funny and jokes when I hit 21. I'm a vocal
happy camper when the dealer busts and I'm holding 12. That makes the house
pleased to have a vocal happy winner -- it makes the suckers bet more. I'm
not out to make my fortune, just pay for my gas money over the hill and back
plus a few bucks for momma's new shoes.

There ain't no black list any more. Anybody who says there is happens to
be living in the ancient past.

Jim



"S Herman" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:45:09 -0500, John T
> > wrote:
>
>>Actually, Blackjack is about the only game where a player can have the
>>advantage. Catch is, they need to know basic stragety and counting.
>>The advantage is pretty small though.
>>
>>John
>
> And if they suspect you are counting you will be detained & asked to
> leave, and your name & picture wil end up on a black list.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:sLdIe.2680$va1.2677@trndny09...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> > The picture made it look as big as a garage! :~)
>
> The picture is almost certainly their 12x12 model.
>
> > Now I take the sissy way out and bought a Coleman pop-up.
>
> Sort of hard to tow that behind an aircraft.
>

Yes, but it's worth it.

The bitch was getting a trailer hitch for the rudder.

[Jim Carriere]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:sLdIe.2680$va1.2677@trndny09...
>
>>Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>>>The picture made it look as big as a garage! :~)
>>
>>The picture is almost certainly their 12x12 model.
>>
>>
>>>Now I take the sissy way out and bought a Coleman pop-up.
>>
>>Sort of hard to tow that behind an aircraft.
>>
>
>
> Yes, but it's worth it.
>
> The bitch was getting a trailer hitch for the rudder.

If you shop for an airplane hitch businesses might get scared off
selling you one (liability concerns), so you have to say, "It's for
an off-road vehicle..." Then you make a nice write up of how you
adapted it to your rudder, take pictures, and submit it to the EAA
magazine :)

[john smith]

Aaron Coolidge wrote:
> I had a department store tent as well. 'K-Mart' house brand. I didn't set it
> up, but Mike my tent-sharer did. I commented that his tent pegs were a little
> short, but he said that it would be OK. Well, it was OK until the Bonanza
> behind us fired up at 6AM Wednesday and used full power to pull out of
> his spot (wet ground, ya know, the tires sink in). That little debacle
> had us scrambling for folding chairs, laundry, etc. for a while.

That's another problem to deal with.
We need to educate the ignorant that it is VERY impolite to power you
way out of your parking spot. The correct method is to ask your
neighbors for assistance in pulling the aircraft into the aisle by hand
(such as we did with the Baron behind Jay at the party Wednesday evening).
Someone is going to get very badly injured when one of the power-users
doesn't get the power off and slides on the wet grass and overruns a
tent or two ahead of them.

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/4/2005 14:28, john smith wrote:

> Aaron Coolidge wrote:
>> I had a department store tent as well. 'K-Mart' house brand. I didn't set it
>> up, but Mike my tent-sharer did. I commented that his tent pegs were a little
>> short, but he said that it would be OK. Well, it was OK until the Bonanza
>> behind us fired up at 6AM Wednesday and used full power to pull out of
>> his spot (wet ground, ya know, the tires sink in). That little debacle
>> had us scrambling for folding chairs, laundry, etc. for a while.
>
> That's another problem to deal with.
> We need to educate the ignorant that it is VERY impolite to power you
> way out of your parking spot. The correct method is to ask your
> neighbors for assistance in pulling the aircraft into the aisle by hand
> (such as we did with the Baron behind Jay at the party Wednesday evening).
> Someone is going to get very badly injured when one of the power-users
> doesn't get the power off and slides on the wet grass and overruns a
> tent or two ahead of them.

.... not to mention getting injured by the flying debris.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[RST Engineering]

Plywood, PLYwood, PLYWOOD.

Jim



"Aaron Coolidge" > wrote in message
...

Well, it was OK until the Bonanza
> behind us fired up at 6AM Wednesday and used full power to pull out of
> his spot (wet ground, ya know, the tires sink in).

[[email protected]]

Its already happened in years past out in the North 40. (serious
injuries from a plane over-running a tent that is).
I'm just amazed that it doesn't happen more.
(knock on wood)...

Ryan Wubben

[Tom McQuinn]

wrote:
> Its already happened in years past out in the North 40. (serious
> injuries from a plane over-running a tent that is).
> I'm just amazed that it doesn't happen more.
> (knock on wood)...
>
> Ryan Wubben
>

Wow. That is disturbing. It's a pity that the powers that be can't put
a fraction of the effort they put into verifying that the camping fees
have been paid, into creating and enforcing a 'no taxiing directly from
the campsite, must turn 90 degrees first' rule.

When I was at Fond du Loc and we couldn't get my Archer up the tiny
incline in front of me I called the FBO and they cheerfully towed me to
the taxiway. But I suspect the sheer quantity of planes at OSH would
quickly overwhelm any FBO who tried to be so generous.

Tom

[john smith]

Tom McQuinn wrote:
> When I was at Fond du Loc and we couldn't get my Archer up the tiny
> incline in front of me I called the FBO and they cheerfully towed me to
> the taxiway. But I suspect the sheer quantity of planes at OSH would
> quickly overwhelm any FBO who tried to be so generous.

Someone mentioned at the Wednesday night party that there were 12,600
registered aircraft on the field. Add to that the GA Parking folks and
there were probably close to 12,800.