Engine over TBO at purchase

[DHead]

Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?
Thanks in advance.

Gary
Future pilot without a plane

[Brien K. Meehan]

I'd be suspicious of the engine not being overhauled already. He
probably just doesn't have the cash, but it's possible that the seller
found a problem so significant that he could recoup the cost of the
repair in the sale, and is trying to "dump" the plane unrepaired.

I'd consider offering the fair value of the plane minus the cost of
replacing the engine with a brand new one, or maybe contingent on
getting the overhaul. If the seller didn't like those ideas, I
wouldn't worry that I missed out on a great plane.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"DHead" > wrote:

> Hi group.
> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
> The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
> point is the engine time.
> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
> the engine O/H?

what is the asking price? what would be the asking price of the aircraft with
a good overhaul?

In general, it is always cheaper for the buyer to have the previous owner
pay for things because a seller never seems to be able to recover 100%
cost of repairs/improvements. However, be cautious of a cheapo
overhaul.

I'd recommend caution about buying an aircraft with a runout engine.
Overhauling an engine can be a great learning experience, and can
also be a lot of work, with lots of traps for the unwary.

good luck

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Darrel Toepfer]

DHead wrote:

> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
> the engine O/H?

Whats the oil consumption and compression readings, does the
engine/plane still perform like the manual says, whats the history of
the engine, ie. has it been topped? Making TBO and beyond may mean a
well cared for engine that can continue to operate for many years to
come without an OH...

[Darrel Toepfer]

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> DHead wrote:
>> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning
>> allowances for the engine O/H?
>
> Whats the oil consumption and compression readings, does the
> engine/plane still perform like the manual says, whats the history of
> the engine, ie. has it been topped? Making TBO and beyond may mean a
> well cared for engine that can continue to operate for many years to
> come without an OH...

Also, take the $5k and put it into a OH account, save away additional
funds for each hour flown... You just might make it though training with
doing nothing but oil changes and keeping the tanks filled. Sell the
plane and move on when done...

[John Doe]

I would walk away.

There are thousands of planes for sale with plenty good lower time engines.


"DHead" > wrote in message
...
> Hi group.
> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price
> to have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
> The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
> point is the engine time.
> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances
> for the engine O/H?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Gary
> Future pilot without a plane
>

[Dave Anderer]

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:10:57 +0000, John Doe wrote:

> I would walk away.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily. It depends.

I bought my current plane with a runout engine at an appropriately
discounted price. I then had the overhaul done the way I wanted it, by
the shop I wanted to do it. I was planning to keep the aircraft a long
time, so the quality of the work was important to me.

I looked at a lot of planes out there with cheap overhauls done for the
purpose of sale. Some were already leaking oil at 100 SMOH.

As to the $5K - that's kind of meaningless. I'd figure $20K to do
a quality overhaul of everything forward of the firewall. Determine what
the plane would be worth - accounting for the condition of airframe and
radios - with a fresh overhaul, subtract $20K, and that's what this one is
worth.

[A Lieberman]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, DHead wrote:

> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.

Hi Gary,

I bought my 1976 Sundowner with 1940 TT on air and engine 4 years ago.
What I learned.....

Don't depend solely on compressions for evaluating a engine. I bought mine
that had 76 to 78 on each cylinder. Thought that was great until an
exhaust valve disintegrated in flight. So, keep in mind, there is a bottom
half of the engine to consider.

What you describe is a very underused plane. I learned this is just as
bad, if not worse then buying an overused plane. You may ask why? Things
corrode, grease settles and all sorts of nasty things happen to metal AND
WIRES when it sits unattended for long periods of times.

I bought mine for 38K. The owner originally asked for 44K, but I said no,
too high based on high time engine. He came back about 1 month later and
dropped it to 38K which I thought was fair enough. Bought the plane.

Flew it for 50 hours and then the exhaust valve on the number 4 cylinder
bit the dust. Got the cylinder replaced, and then another cylinder started
acting up (luckily on the ground). I could not get it to pass the mag
check, taxied back to the ramp, asked my A&P to yank the engine and
overhaul it. 13.5K and a month later, I was a proud owner of a newly
overhauled plane.

Avionics. Mine was IFR capable, but was not current on the .411 and .413
transponder pitot static system check. You indicated you are a student, so
this may not be important now, but it is nice to have it current. I had
just got my VFR ticket and was going to transition to my IFR rating, so I
figured, I would be saving a lot of money flying in my plane. (I probably
saved about 5K in training expenses, so that paid for the remainder of the
overhaul is the way I look at it. My radios are old and tired. I learned
from my last pitot static check, the filters are going bad, and will need
to be replaced. Because of the age of the radio, I was told, it probably
will be time to look at new avionics.

Sitting on the ramp is the worst thing one can do for the gauges.
Lubrication settles, gauges get sticky and so on. So, evaluate how much
was the plane used recently?

I am now at a point, where I have every switch, button and knob working.
(knock on wood!). It took me 3 years to get to this point, and it is
expensive. A stupid power supply to strobe light cost $240 dollars.

Not sure what you currently fly, but a Sundowner for creature comfort is by
far better then a piper or a Cessna 172 or lower. Tons of room. Plan for
110 knots in your flight planning at 2300 rpm. I burn about 9.5 to 10 gph.

In the three years I have owned my plane, I have flown at least once a
week, so whoever gets my plane will have gotten a plane with some serious
TLC.

Note, a Sundowner is very difficult to learn to land. It is very nose
heavy and you must fly it all the way down to the ground. You must stick
to the POH numbers or you will float kingdomkong or drop like a brick. If
you hold the speed to the numbers you will grease every landing. The elbow
gear does amazing things for landings.

The plane is built like a tank and flies like one, so don't expect to be a
speed demon after wheels are up. The known porposing problems are true, as
I have been there and done it. If you bounce on landing, don't salvage it,
go around.

Hope this helps!

Allen

[Doug]

Do a compression check, cut open the oil filter and send in an oil
analysis. PLENTY of engines go well past TBO. If the plane is priced
right (that is the engine is already fully depreciated), the engine
time past TBO is free. If an engine is not using oil, does not leak
substantial oil, and makes good compressions, chances are it has at
least 500 more hours in it.

[Jon Kraus]

When I saw what the OP wanted I thought "Allen Lieberman need to chime
in here" and here you are... Great post and one of the reasons I love
these newsgroups. No matter what you question someone has already "been
there and done that' and usually has the T-shirt!! :-)

I, myself, am just waiting on the post that fills me in on how I can
make airplane ownership reasonably inexpensive. Let me know if anyone
sees that one. ;-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201

A Lieberman wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, DHead wrote:
>
>
>>I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I bought my 1976 Sundowner with 1940 TT on air and engine 4 years ago.
> What I learned.....
>
> Don't depend solely on compressions for evaluating a engine. I bought mine
> that had 76 to 78 on each cylinder. Thought that was great until an
> exhaust valve disintegrated in flight. So, keep in mind, there is a bottom
> half of the engine to consider.
>
> What you describe is a very underused plane. I learned this is just as
> bad, if not worse then buying an overused plane. You may ask why? Things
> corrode, grease settles and all sorts of nasty things happen to metal AND
> WIRES when it sits unattended for long periods of times.
>
> I bought mine for 38K. The owner originally asked for 44K, but I said no,
> too high based on high time engine. He came back about 1 month later and
> dropped it to 38K which I thought was fair enough. Bought the plane.
>
> Flew it for 50 hours and then the exhaust valve on the number 4 cylinder
> bit the dust. Got the cylinder replaced, and then another cylinder started
> acting up (luckily on the ground). I could not get it to pass the mag
> check, taxied back to the ramp, asked my A&P to yank the engine and
> overhaul it. 13.5K and a month later, I was a proud owner of a newly
> overhauled plane.
>
> Avionics. Mine was IFR capable, but was not current on the .411 and .413
> transponder pitot static system check. You indicated you are a student, so
> this may not be important now, but it is nice to have it current. I had
> just got my VFR ticket and was going to transition to my IFR rating, so I
> figured, I would be saving a lot of money flying in my plane. (I probably
> saved about 5K in training expenses, so that paid for the remainder of the
> overhaul is the way I look at it. My radios are old and tired. I learned
> from my last pitot static check, the filters are going bad, and will need
> to be replaced. Because of the age of the radio, I was told, it probably
> will be time to look at new avionics.
>
> Sitting on the ramp is the worst thing one can do for the gauges.
> Lubrication settles, gauges get sticky and so on. So, evaluate how much
> was the plane used recently?
>
> I am now at a point, where I have every switch, button and knob working.
> (knock on wood!). It took me 3 years to get to this point, and it is
> expensive. A stupid power supply to strobe light cost $240 dollars.
>
> Not sure what you currently fly, but a Sundowner for creature comfort is by
> far better then a piper or a Cessna 172 or lower. Tons of room. Plan for
> 110 knots in your flight planning at 2300 rpm. I burn about 9.5 to 10 gph.
>
> In the three years I have owned my plane, I have flown at least once a
> week, so whoever gets my plane will have gotten a plane with some serious
> TLC.
>
> Note, a Sundowner is very difficult to learn to land. It is very nose
> heavy and you must fly it all the way down to the ground. You must stick
> to the POH numbers or you will float kingdomkong or drop like a brick. If
> you hold the speed to the numbers you will grease every landing. The elbow
> gear does amazing things for landings.
>
> The plane is built like a tank and flies like one, so don't expect to be a
> speed demon after wheels are up. The known porposing problems are true, as
> I have been there and done it. If you bounce on landing, don't salvage it,
> go around.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Allen

[Bob Fry]

Others have offered good advice and I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.

How many planes have you looked at? I was in a similar situation to
yours when I was looking to buy an Ercoupe. I found a plane within
100 hours of TBO and the owner made only a modest accomodation for the
high-time engine, starting from an optimistic estimate of the market
value of the plane with a fresh engine. Bottom line, he wanted too
much and wouldn't budge. Since it was one of the first planes I
looked at, I walked away. Eventually I found a better plane with a
much better engine at a lower price! There are indeed many airplanes
out there.

One trick I used to find my airplane was, first I decided on the model
I wanted, then downloaded the FAA database and filtered it for owners
of those models with zip codes within about 200 mile range of me.
Then I wrote all the owners letters asking if they were interested in
selling, emphasizing I was not a broker. This generated a number of
quality replies, much better than looking in T.A.P.

Good luck!

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, "DHead" > wrote:

>Hi group.
>I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
>The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
>have the engine O/H'd.
>I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
>don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
>The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
>point is the engine time.


>Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
>the engine O/H?

It depends on how the airplane is priced. If, in initially pricing the
aircraft, the broker already took into account the fact that the engine was
2,000 SMOH, then an additional $5,000 discount is gravy to you.

You need to appraise the value of the entire aircraft. Only then can you
tell if the additional $5K discount is a good deal for you.

AOPA has a service (for members) that allows this sort of appraisal. There
is also the Blue Book as well as independent services.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[kontiki]

I would consider it an opportunity. If you like the plane,
and a thorough pre-buy inspection finds nothing wrong then
use the TBO as a negotiating point. Personally, I would
rather choose the person who rebuilds my engine rather trust
someone who just wants to sell it.

In any case, as long as the compressions are still okay
you can still fly it beyond TBO. I would just make sure
that my offer included an appropriate discount for a quality
engine rebuild.

[BTIZ]

I'd buy the airplane cheap and then do the overhaul myself.. then you know
what you have... not a cheap overhaul by the seller.

Get an engine shop to tell you the overhaul cost, then add 50% for
"unknowns".
You don't know until it's opened up that the crank and case are good.

O-540 Overhaul just completed, quoted $19000 with a good crank and case.
Price dropped to $17500 because the cylinders were good. Price included mag
overhaul, carb overhaul etc.

Then we ended up spending $500 on a new starter and $500 on new hoses and
clamps etc

Price does not include the labor cost to remove and install the engine.

BT

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "DHead" > wrote:
>
>> Hi group.
>> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
>> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price
>> to
>> have the engine O/H'd.
>> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
>> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
>> The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
>> point is the engine time.
>> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances
>> for
>> the engine O/H?
>
> what is the asking price? what would be the asking price of the aircraft
> with
> a good overhaul?
>
> In general, it is always cheaper for the buyer to have the previous owner
> pay for things because a seller never seems to be able to recover 100%
> cost of repairs/improvements. However, be cautious of a cheapo
> overhaul.
>
> I'd recommend caution about buying an aircraft with a runout engine.
> Overhauling an engine can be a great learning experience, and can
> also be a lot of work, with lots of traps for the unwary.
>
> good luck
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> no one likes an educated mule
>

[LWG]

I agree with everything except that a Sundowner is difficult to land. I
think it is no more difficult to land than any other light single, but it
does require a little more attention to speed. Keep your speed at 70 kts on
final, and it's a piece of cake.

Les

"A Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, DHead wrote:
>
>> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I bought my 1976 Sundowner with 1940 TT on air and engine 4 years ago.
> What I learned.....
>
> Don't depend solely on compressions for evaluating a engine. I bought
> mine
> that had 76 to 78 on each cylinder. Thought that was great until an
> exhaust valve disintegrated in flight. So, keep in mind, there is a
> bottom
> half of the engine to consider.
>
> What you describe is a very underused plane. I learned this is just as
> bad, if not worse then buying an overused plane. You may ask why? Things
> corrode, grease settles and all sorts of nasty things happen to metal AND
> WIRES when it sits unattended for long periods of times.
>
> I bought mine for 38K. The owner originally asked for 44K, but I said no,
> too high based on high time engine. He came back about 1 month later and
> dropped it to 38K which I thought was fair enough. Bought the plane.
>
> Flew it for 50 hours and then the exhaust valve on the number 4 cylinder
> bit the dust. Got the cylinder replaced, and then another cylinder
> started
> acting up (luckily on the ground). I could not get it to pass the mag
> check, taxied back to the ramp, asked my A&P to yank the engine and
> overhaul it. 13.5K and a month later, I was a proud owner of a newly
> overhauled plane.
>
> Avionics. Mine was IFR capable, but was not current on the .411 and .413
> transponder pitot static system check. You indicated you are a student,
> so
> this may not be important now, but it is nice to have it current. I had
> just got my VFR ticket and was going to transition to my IFR rating, so I
> figured, I would be saving a lot of money flying in my plane. (I probably
> saved about 5K in training expenses, so that paid for the remainder of the
> overhaul is the way I look at it. My radios are old and tired. I learned
> from my last pitot static check, the filters are going bad, and will need
> to be replaced. Because of the age of the radio, I was told, it probably
> will be time to look at new avionics.
>
> Sitting on the ramp is the worst thing one can do for the gauges.
> Lubrication settles, gauges get sticky and so on. So, evaluate how much
> was the plane used recently?
>
> I am now at a point, where I have every switch, button and knob working.
> (knock on wood!). It took me 3 years to get to this point, and it is
> expensive. A stupid power supply to strobe light cost $240 dollars.
>
> Not sure what you currently fly, but a Sundowner for creature comfort is
> by
> far better then a piper or a Cessna 172 or lower. Tons of room. Plan for
> 110 knots in your flight planning at 2300 rpm. I burn about 9.5 to 10
> gph.
>
> In the three years I have owned my plane, I have flown at least once a
> week, so whoever gets my plane will have gotten a plane with some serious
> TLC.
>
> Note, a Sundowner is very difficult to learn to land. It is very nose
> heavy and you must fly it all the way down to the ground. You must stick
> to the POH numbers or you will float kingdomkong or drop like a brick. If
> you hold the speed to the numbers you will grease every landing. The
> elbow
> gear does amazing things for landings.
>
> The plane is built like a tank and flies like one, so don't expect to be a
> speed demon after wheels are up. The known porposing problems are true,
> as
> I have been there and done it. If you bounce on landing, don't salvage
> it,
> go around.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Allen

[tom418]

I'll take an engine with 2500 since FREMAN before a 200 hrs since a "Dip &
Ship" overhaul anytime.
"John Doe" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I would walk away.
>
> There are thousands of planes for sale with plenty good lower time
engines.
>
>
> "DHead" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi group.
> > I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> > The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking
price
> > to have the engine O/H'd.
> > I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> > don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
> > The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at
this
> > point is the engine time.
> > Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances
> > for the engine O/H?
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Gary
> > Future pilot without a plane
> >
>
>

[Mike Spera]

> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

$5k allowance not enough? You are darned right it is not. Many owners
think they can pass off a huge major repair on the next guy by quoting
some ridiculous price and waiting for the right sucker. The sad thing
is, they usually can. There are a lot more fools out there with money
who don't know or don't care about the math.

If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H. alternator O/H, starter O/H, fuel and oil hoses, scat
tubing, etc. Also, have a mechanic look at the landing gear. I thought
that others had posted something that the sundowners have some rather
expensive cushions that give out with age.

Rather than trying to talk some sense into this owner, I would pass and
find a plane ready to go (with about 400 since overhaul).

Here is the Catch-22: The more you are prepared to walk away and wait,
the better your chances at getting a good plane. Junk is for sale every
day and readily available. Decent small airplanes are much harder to
find and usually take some time to locate. When they come around, it is
a feeding frenzy to get at it. Success means being willing to pass on
the dogs and possibly lose out on a couple of nice ones until your time
comes.

Good Luck,
Mike

[Matt Barrow]

> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price
to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.


You are correct; $14K off a $14K O/H is the reasonable adjustment.

You seem pretty knowledgeable, but this article can help. including
explaining what TBO really represents.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187037-1.html

/excerpt
The Savvy Aviator #4: Debunking TBO
April 14, 2004
By Mike Busch,
Columnist


Engine TBO (time between overhauls) seems to be one of the most
misunderstood concepts in aviation maintenance. There are lots of
TBO-related old wives tales that are widely believed by owners and mechanic
alike, and they can cost owners a great deal of money. Mike Busch endeavors
to clear up these misconceptions, and explain what TBO really means.
Ask any aircraft owner what the TBO is for the engine(s) on his aircraft and
you'll almost always get the correct answer without hesitation: "My engine
has a 1,700-hour TBO." But ask that owner to explain the significance of
that TBO figure and you'll get all sorts of answers, most of them flat
wrong. Here are a few of the most common misapprehensions about TBO:


"It's illegal to fly an airplane if the engine is past the TBO established
by the manufacturer."
Nonsense. The TBO figures published by Lycoming and TCM are not
airworthiness limitations. An engine may be long past TBO and still be
legally airworthy. (An engine may also become unairworthy long before
reaching TBO.)

/end excerpt

I bought my plane with less than 40 hours until TBO because I wanted to do a
complete makeover (TSIO-520 over to a TNIO-550) and got a very handsome deal
(the previous owner, I think, thought TBO was hard cast legal number as in
the OWT just mentioned) because of it.

If an airplane has a 2000 hr TBO and it costs $14K for the overhaul
(everything else not withstanding), the pro rata allowance then is $7 an
hour. If this fellow you're dealing with is allowing $5k he is attempting to
use the airplane and have you pay for it.

Good luck, and welcome to the Beech owners group...an elite group, IIDSSM
:~)

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Newps]

Mike Spera wrote:

Ah Bull****.


>
> If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
> muffler O/H.

$400 for a new one.


alternator O/H,

$300.


starter O/H,

$250.


fuel and oil hoses,

$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.


scat
> tubing,

Hardly anything.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Newps >
wrote:

> > If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
> > muffler O/H.
> $400 for a new one.
>
> alternator O/H,
> $300.
>
> starter O/H,
> $250.
>
> fuel and oil hoses,
> $50 maybe for hoses, plus time.

depends on the airplane.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Mike Spera wrote:
>
> Ah Bull****.
>
>
> >
> > If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
> > muffler O/H.
>
> $400 for a new one.
>
>
> alternator O/H,
>
> $300.
>
>
> starter O/H,
>
> $250.
>
>
> fuel and oil hoses,
>
> $50 maybe for hoses, plus time.
>
>
> scat
> > tubing,
>
> Hardly anything.

Then too... http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187727-1.html

/excerpt
The Savvy Aviator #8: Overhaul Overdone
August 4, 2004
By Mike Busch ,
Columnist


When an instrument, accessory or other appliance stops working on our
airplanes, we generally get it overhauled or exchange it for an overhauled
exchange unit, right? Wrong, says AVweb's Mike Busch, who argues that
overhaul is often unnecessary and a big waste of money, and offers several
illustrative cases-in-point.

Why are so many aircraft owners and A&P mechanics "spring-loaded to the
overhaul position"? I think the word "overhaul" might be the most overused
and misunderstood word in the lexicon of aircraft maintenance.

Last week, I was talking to a friend who had just put his airplane in the
shop for its annual inspection. I asked him if he'd submitted any squawks
for the shop to fix. He replied, "My nose strut hasn't been feeling right
and it's been weeping fluid, so I had them overhaul it."

I pointed out to my friend that I was sure the shop hadn't really
"overhauled" his leaky nose strut. The shop would have disassembled the
strut, cleaned it, replaced the O-ring seals with new ones, then reassembled
the strut and serviced it hydraulic fluid and compressed nitrogen. That's a
"reseal" or a "repair" but not an "overhaul."

/end excerpt


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Dave Butler]

DHead wrote:
> Hi group.
> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
> The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
> point is the engine time.
> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
> the engine O/H?

$5K off for the overhaul is not reasonable. Should be closer to $15-20K.

I have no heartburn with buying a plane with a runout engine, provided it is
priced appropriately. It gives you the chance to get a quality overhaul that is
supervised by you. Do not let the seller do a cheap overhaul and pass the
problems along to you.

Be sure you know which engine is in the Sundowner. I think some Sundowners have
a geared engine that is rare and parts are hard to find and it may be
un-overhaul-able. Sorry if I raise an alarm unnecessarily. Others will correct me.

Dave

[George Patterson]

DHead wrote:
>
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily discounted
the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt engine. Bet
he's doing better than that already.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:qQAHe.7250$r12.4363@trndny04...
> DHead wrote:
> >
> > The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking
price to
> > have the engine O/H'd.
> > I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> > don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
>
> That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily
discounted
> the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
> $14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt
engine. Bet
> he's doing better than that already.
>
I would take that bet.

Most owners don't comprehend what TBO is and what it represents.

If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant, or
he's full of it.

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant, or
> he's full of it.

It *still* depends on what the price is. A $5k discount on a price of $45k beats
the hell out of a $15k discount on $60k, especially if the book value (with the
runout engine) is higher than the asking price.

I priced my Maule at $17,000 less than book value. And I still had some asshole
complaining that it needed $12,000 worth of work. To be worth book. And wanting
another $12k knocked off.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:25:26 GMT, George Patterson >
wrote:

>That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily discounted
>the aircraft to allow for the near-runout. He should be offering you about
>$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt engine. Bet
>he's doing better than that already.

Exactly the point I tried to make a few days ago. But few seem to grasp
it.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:W6BHe.7256$r12.2252@trndny04...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> > If he's offering $5K off based on a $14K O/H, he's either very ignorant,
or
> > he's full of it.
>
> It *still* depends on what the price is. A $5k discount on a price of $45k
beats
> the hell out of a $15k discount on $60k, especially if the book value
(with the
> runout engine) is higher than the asking price.

Half right...it depends on the book value. From there, you adjust. Many
will try to fleece a buy by making a great sounding offer, say $5K towards
an overhaul. Another is to portray the aircraft as a "8" or something. Other
than brand new, everything is a "5" and you go from there.

When I bought mine it had a nice interior, but it was still six years old
and the seller tried to claim it was an "8".

>
> I priced my Maule at $17,000 less than book value. And I still had some
asshole
> complaining that it needed $12,000 worth of work. To be worth book. And
wanting
> another $12k knocked off.

Did he know the book value? Many don't. Also, many don't comprehend what TBO
really is.

[Matt Barrow]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 02:25:26 GMT, George Patterson >
> wrote:
>
> >That depends on the asking price. Most owners have already heavily
discounted
> >the aircraft to allow for the near-runout.

And many don't. In any case, they shouldn't unless they explain it
specifically rather than making assumptions. It's those sort of
around-the-corner adjustments that can lead to trouble and it's the sort of
ploy that many of use a re to used to seeing from flaky car salesmen.


> He should be offering you about
> >$14,000 lower than book value for this aircraft with a newly rebuilt
engine. Bet
> >he's doing better than that already.
>
> Exactly the point I tried to make a few days ago. But few seem to grasp
> it.

Rather assumptive given the lack of information provided.

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> Did he know the book value?

No, which is exactly my point. Lots of people here are yammering that the seller
should take $14k off the *selling price* 'cause of the old engine. No. He should
be taking some amount off the *book* value. Unless you know what that is, you
can have no idea whether the selling price is too high or not.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:hULHe.2231$b91.1924@trndny06...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> > Did he know the book value?
>
> No, which is exactly my point.

Actually, he never said one way or the other.

> Lots of people here are yammering that the seller
> should take $14k off the *selling price* 'cause of the old engine. No. He
should
> be taking some amount off the *book* value. Unless you know what that is,
you
> can have no idea whether the selling price is too high or not.

And, again, he never said yea or nay.

The seller, AIR, didn't offer an adjustment from the bookprice (as you
suggest), but offered an adjustment based on the TBO of the engine which was
roughly 35% of he O/H cost.

Given the fellow was a student, a newbie, I may be wrong, but I'd guess
(given my skeptical nature) the seller saw a plum ripe for the picking.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Robert M. Gary]

I would much rather buy an aircraft with a TBO engine than one with 0
hours. It amazes me when you see ads for aircraft with just a couple
hours on the engine. I just can't see trusting the overhaul of an owner
who does the overhaul just to sell the plane. There are a ***LOT*** of
corners you can cut when you overhaul an engine. Give me the plane
pre-overhaul and let me have it overhauled myself.

-Robert, CFI


DHead wrote:
> Hi group.
> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
> The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
> point is the engine time.
> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
> the engine O/H?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Gary
> Future pilot without a plane

[Robert M. Gary]

When you do your Vref it will automatically account for the engine time
in the price evaluation.

[Mike Spera]

Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.

Opinions vary,
Mike


Newps wrote:
>
>
> Mike Spera wrote:
>
> Ah Bull****.
>
>
>>
>> If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
>> muffler O/H.
>
>
> $400 for a new one.
>
>
> alternator O/H,
>
> $300.
>
>
> starter O/H,
>
> $250.
>
>
> fuel and oil hoses,
>
> $50 maybe for hoses, plus time.
>
>
> scat
>
>> tubing,
>
>
> Hardly anything.

[Newps]

Mike Spera wrote:
>
> Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
> shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
> mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
> work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.
>


Yes, restorations cost a lot more.

[private]

"Mike Spera" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Sorry. My list was not exhaustive. Many planes also need carb heat
> shroud work, baffling work, baffle seals, cowl chafe replacement, engine
> mount isolators, stack work, engine compartment wiring repairs, mount
> work, muffler shroud work, and the list goes on and on.
>
> Opinions vary,
> Mike
>

Q - What is the definition of an architect's estimate?
A - The cost of construction in heaven.

The question is not how much will it cost to fix, but how much to fix
properly.
Sellers and buyers will never agree on this one.

I think the best advice is to never fall in love until after the deal and to
recognize that as a new and inexperienced buyer you need to consider and
reject a lot of possibilities and treat them as learning experience and
evaluation practice so that you will recognize the right deal (and a
motivated seller). Just learning to read and evaluate log books is not
something you can do properly unless you have seriously looked at lots of
them. I would suggest that any prospective purchaser do a serious
evaluation of every set of log books possible and not just for the aircraft
types that you are seriously considering.

When you do find the right aircraft.
Never underestimate the power of the offer, sellers see lots of lookers but
few real buyers and even a lowball offer may be the only one they get and
they may be a lot more motivated than they will admit.

The bottom line is that in any buy / sell negotiation, when the buyer says
no he keeps his money, and when sellers say no they keep their (continuing)
expenses. Book? prices are fine in a liquid market of similar commodities
but in a limited market there are seldom as many buyers as are required to
ensure liquidity, and a seller may have to wait a long time.

Remember that the price you pay for an aircraft is just the down payment on
the maintenance.

Happy landings

[nuke]

Ok, here's the deal:

2035 TT A&E - Sundowner, had to be from the 1970's so it is at least 25
years old, if not 30+.

Engines have two TBO's. The hours we are all familiar with and a
calendar time, which for the Lycomings ( all Sundowners are O320 or O360
powered ) is 12 years or 2000 hours.

You may, as a part 91 operator, exceed TBO, as it is only a recommended
number, not a mandatory life limit.

But your Sundowner is a runout by hours and years.

The 4k thing isn't relevant. If I were selling the plane, I wouldn't buy
you a new overhaul either. On the other hand, I'd be realistic about the
actual market value of the aircraft considering its condition.

There are two evaluators you should consider: AOPA's VRef and
Trade-a-plane's evaluator. The TAP is a little better if you are a
buyer. AOPA's is better for owner's buying insurance or trying to sell.

Sundowners can be hard to sell, a friend of mine had a tough time
selling his.

So how much is this plane worth to YOU?

So here's what you need to consider in your decision: How much is this
plane worth to you? Consider that it is likely to need an engine
overhaul soon, perhaps right away. I just went through that process on
the plane I bought last summer. Checked it out nine ways to sunday, and
it spit up a bearing 50 hours later. So stuff happens. It was not quite
a run-out, but it was priced according to its hours.

Overhauls are expensive. You'll also find a whole lot of other piddly
crap to fix while the engine is off, like the mount, the Lord mounts,
the exhaust, the oil cooler, the hoses, alternator, a few wires, a
cracked baffle or two, new baffle seals, a new vacuum pump...

A carb'd O360 with new cylinders will cost you about $15k altogether,
just for the motor in a first class shop. Then you got labor to put it
back on, and all the above mentioned stuff. Overhauling an exhaust with
4 stacks and mufflers and shrouds will cost you about $800, mount
overhaul will run about $1k, 4 new lord mounts are about $300. New
mixture and throttle cables will run you about $500 a baffle or two will
probably be cracked and need replacing with a new "famous Beech quality"
part from Raytheon.

Ask me how I know all of this...

Depending on how committed you are after the process (ie, how much money
you spend), you'll have a nice shiny new reliable motor in your plane
and a bunch of shiny new reliable parts to go with it.

So what you do is figure out how much you want to put into this deal and
work from there. If you want a plane to keep for a while, then shop for
an overhaul with all the trimmings, subtract that from what you think
the plane is worth with 0-smoh, offer that much to the owner, see if you
get anywhere. Keep in mind that every plane worth having, someone has
probably put more than it is worth into it.

If you are looking for a time-builder, shop for an ugly-duckling with a
low-time, good running motor and sufficient avionics to get your IFR and
commercial in and a few hundred hours of x-country time and no further
investment beyond maintenance.

My advice, since you are a student, is just to rent until you get your
private pilot license. Owning is a hobby all of its own and a burden you
probably don't want distracting you from training while you are trying
to finish off your initial training.

In article >,
"DHead" > wrote:

> Hi group.
> I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
> The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
> have the engine O/H'd.
> I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
> don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
> The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
> point is the engine time.
> Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
> the engine O/H?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Gary
> Future pilot without a plane