Advice On Flying Clubs [Archive]

Paul Tomblin

July 31st 05, 01:38 PM

In a previous article, "Jay Beckman" > said:
>
>I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like to
>get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

There are a lot of different types of flying clubs.

The main difference is that some clubs make you buy a share of their
fleet, and the share price may appreciate in value over the course of your
membership, and then you sell it when you leave. Other clubs, such as
mine (http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/) charge you an initiation fee
when you join, but don't give any of it back if you quit.

Another major difference is how they pay for upgrades. Some clubs will
levy the members if they want to buy a new plane or upgrade the panels or
whatever, and others (like mine) will do it entirely through debt and
lines of credit. Our club has in the last five years sold two Archers,
bought a newer Archer and a Dakota, put a Stormscope in the Dakota,
painted the Dakota, and put new engines in two of our planes, all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.
We're planning a new engine in the Dakota next year, and possibly in the
Lance the year after that.

Before joining a club, you should ask about:
- What it costs to join?
- Whether that's a share or an initiation fee?
- Whether they levy the membership for upgrades? If so, how much are they
likely to levy?
- What's the ratio of members to planes? (We find that once you get over 15
members per plane, people start complaining about aircraft availability.)
- How do they schedule planes, and is the "scheduling book" visible to
all, and accessible through the Internet AND through telephone? (You
can't always count on getting to the Internet when you're weathered in
somewhere along the way.)
- How is the fleet maintained? Do the members do a lot of the
maintenance, or is it done by professionals? (Our club used to do a
lot, but years ago we decided to get everything done by professionals for
liability reasons. We don't even change our own oil now.)
- Whether the fleet is a good fit to your mission?
- What sort of checkouts and currency requirements they have for different
planes in the fleet?
- Do they allow all weekend or week long bookings in the high season? Is
there a surcharge if you don't fly a certain number of hours on a long
booking?
- Do they do social activities or flying activities as a club?
- Do club members get together to fly to Oshkosh in club aircraft?

You'll also need to look at the planes yourself to see if they're clean
and well maintained. Garbage in the planes or "barely legal" maintenance
is a good sign that the members don't have pride of ownership in their
planes, which I think is a bad thing. The worst thing that can happen to
a flying club is for most of the members to start treating it like a cheap
FBO. Once that happens, the people who do all the work in the club, the
officers and other volunteers, will start burning out and then nothing
will get done.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
[Y]ou should write for the comprehension of the next programmer who
looks at your code, keep it clean and sensible, and *not* play
any obscure Jedi mind-tricks. -- Anthony de Boer

Jose

July 31st 05, 02:33 PM

It all depends on the club, of course. But potential benefits are:

1: No minimum rental fee for long trips - this makes an airplane
actually useful.

2: Better maintanance, since the club members think of the airplane as
their own.

3: Social aspects of flying with the same people, and getting spouses
together (and getting spouses to fly, and land, the plane themselves)

4: Ability to participate in decisions that affect the fleet.

5: Appreciation of your equity share (if the club operates that way)
makes it easier to consider upgrades and additional aircraft.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Andrew Gideon

July 31st 05, 03:20 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> all without
> hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

This is an issue in the club to which I belong. We try to fund upgrade by
increasing equity. That works as you described a share: One buys in and
cashes out at the end. The only loss is the opportunity cost of leaving
that equity with the club for the duration of membership.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Similarly, we don't use much of an initiation fee that's not paid back. The
only cost "lost" on joining is the cost of the checkride and such.

I'd be *very* interested in more discussion here regarding how other clubs
do this.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

July 31st 05, 03:30 PM

Jay Beckman wrote:

> I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
> to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

Advantages over owning:

o Diversity of aircraft
o Spreading risk (ie. one aircraft down doesn't
mean you don't fly)
o Spreading cost risk (ie. one airplane having an expensive
year can be offset by other aircraft under certain
circumstances)[1]

Advantages over renting:

o Opportunity to participate/learn more about
the care and feeding of aircraft.
o Price
o No daily minimums

Disadvantages over owning:

o Scheduling, as opposed to just "getting up and
going flying" (not valid if in a partnership)

Disadvantages over renting:

o Having to deal with care and feeding of aircraft.
o No FBO to whom one can simple give the airplane and
say "solve the problem"

In my mind, a good club operates like a large partnership. But I'm biased
in that that's how my club operates (we're all share owners, all "care and
feeding" tasks are volunteer positions, etc).

- Andrew

[1] This is a tough issue. We try to keep all aircraft paying
for themselves so as to avoid retaining an undesirable plane.
But for identical aircraft, we do pool (since there's no reason
to assume one 172 is less desirable than another identical 172).

Pooling helps...and it's a good reason in my opinion for a larger
club: so as to have more pool w/o giving up diversity. That is,
I'd rather a club with two pairs of identical aircraft and twice
the membership than a smaller club with only one of each of two
types of airplane.

Paul Tomblin

July 31st 05, 05:16 PM

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> all without
>> hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.
>
>How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
>monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
>upgrades?

No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

>Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
>there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
>that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

>When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
>over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
>gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits. The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
tapes hurtling down the highway.
-- Andrew Tannenbaum possibly quoting Warren Jackson

Paul Tomblin

July 31st 05, 05:18 PM

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>Jay Beckman wrote:
>Advantages over renting:
>
> o Opportunity to participate/learn more about
> the care and feeding of aircraft.
> o Price
> o No daily minimums

* NO RENTERS INSURANCE NEEDED! The club insurance covers you, and the
insurance company won't subrogate against you. That alone can pay your
monthly dues.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I didn't know it was impossible when I did it."

John Clonts

July 31st 05, 06:37 PM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message ...
> In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>> all without
>>> hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.
>>
>>How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
>>monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
>>upgrades?
>
> No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.
>
>>Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
>>there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
>>that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?
>
> That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
> the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
> other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
> theirs.
>
> The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
> got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
> upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.
>
>>When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
>>over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
>>gets all his or her equity back.
>
> Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
> and doesn't get anything when he quits. The other local club at our field
> does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
> increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
> additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
> hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
> our monthly dues.
>

How much are the monthly dues?
--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Paul Tomblin

July 31st 05, 06:51 PM

In a previous article, "John Clonts" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
>> hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
>> our monthly dues.
>
>How much are the monthly dues?

http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
$80 a month. Which is less than you'd pay for renters insurance,
according to AOPA.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Revenge is an integral part of forgiving and forgetting.
-- The BOFH

Jay Beckman

July 31st 05, 07:54 PM

"Karl-Heinz Kuenzel" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jay,
> take a look in "YOUR PILOT'S LICENSE" by JERRY A. EICHENBERGER pages 52 -
> 54. McGraw-Hill.
> (Go to your nearest Barnes & Noble store, have a coffee and read those 3
> pages....)
> regards Karl-Heinz
>

Thanks for the suggestion K-H, but could you just give me the "gist" of what
the author has to say?

I can guarentee my B&N won't have that book...their aviation section sucks
rocks. Makes me miss living in Dayton, OH (almost) where I used to do my
book shopping at the USAF Museum store.

Thanks,

Jay

Jay Beckman

July 31st 05, 07:55 PM

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:yP_Ge.205090$Qo.190101@fed1read01...
> Hey All...
>
> I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
> to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...
>
> So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?
>
> TIA,
>
> Jay Beckman
> PP-ASEL
> Chandler, AZ

My thanks to all...

Good thoughts and will fuel a list of questions to ask..

Regards,

Jay

Andrew Gideon

August 1st 05, 04:09 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to get
accepted (though there was such a fund in the past, I believe). And it's
rather small.

>
>>Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
>>there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
>>that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?
>
> That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
> the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
> other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
> theirs.
>
> The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
> got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
> upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Obviously, increasing equity is one approach. And it's what my club has
preferred over the years. But I'm interested in at least learning what the
other options are.

>>When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did
>>this
>>over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
>>gets all his or her equity back.
>
> Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
> and doesn't get anything when he quits.

That's somewhat higher than the "throwaway cost" of joining our club. But
the equity (or "share" or "buy in") is $5000. Reminder: that's returned
when a member leaves.

> The other local club at our field
> does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
> increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
> additional assessment.

That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

August 1st 05, 04:19 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

>
> http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
> $80 a month.Â*Â*WhichÂ*isÂ*lessÂ*thanÂ*you'dÂ*payÂ*forÂ* rentersÂ*insurance,
> according to AOPA.

BTW, why break out the insurance from the monthly? The actual monthly is
$80+$24. Why not just call it $104?

Any why break out "Lance membership" for a higher monthly? I'd guess that
this is to avoid having "low end" members pay the fixed costs for the "high
end" planes, right?

- Andrew

Paul Tomblin

August 1st 05, 05:04 PM

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
>> $80 a month.
>
>BTW, why break out the insurance from the monthly? The actual monthly is
>$80+$24. Why not just call it $104?

No, the actual monthly is $82. The insurance is once a year.

>Any why break out "Lance membership" for a higher monthly? I'd guess that
>this is to avoid having "low end" members pay the fixed costs for the "high
>end" planes, right?

Yes. This year we were forced to go to a "named pilot" policy on the
Lance. Since the insurance company only wanted 8 people on the list, but
15 people wanted to fly it and a bunch more had thoughts about eventually
moving up to it, we put that levy on the Lance pilots so that 7 people
would drop off the list of "wanting to fly the Lance", just to be fair to
the rest of the club. Personally, I pay the fee, and I wouldn't think it
fair that the rest of the club pays for the Lance's fixed costs if they
couldn't fly it.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test
key out of my cold, lifeless hands.
-- Simon Travaglia

Paul Tomblin

August 1st 05, 05:08 PM

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.
>
>How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to get

I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something. We were
considering GPS options when we got hit with this insurance problem on our
Lance. The Lance needs a new engine, but it's hardly worth putting
$30,000 into it if the insurance companies are going to get even more
chicken next year and refuse to insure it at all.

>Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
>(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
>upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Like I said, by making sure the monthly fees have an upgrade reserve.

>> The other local club at our field
>> does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
>> increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
>> additional assessment.
>
>That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
double ours.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Orcs killed: none. Disappointing. Stubble update: I look rugged and
manly. Yes! Keep wanting to drop-kick Gimli. Holding myself back. Still
not King." - the very secret diary of Aragorn son of Arathron

Andrew Gideon

August 1st 05, 05:51 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>> http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
>>> $80 a month.
>>
>>BTW, why break out the insurance from the monthly? The actual monthly is
>>$80+$24. Why not just call it $104?
>
> No, the actual monthly is $82. The insurance is once a year.

Oh, so the monthly cost is $82+($24/12)=$84?

I still don't understand why you break it out, though. Our club simply
bundles insurance into the monthly (along with other fixed costs). Why
break out this cost, but not others?

>
>>Any why break out "Lance membership" for a higher monthly? I'd guess that
>>this is to avoid having "low end" members pay the fixed costs for the
>>"high end" planes, right?
>
> Yes. This year we were forced to go to a "named pilot" policy on the
> Lance. Since the insurance company only wanted 8 people on the list, but
> 15 people wanted to fly it and a bunch more had thoughts about eventually
> moving up to it, we put that levy on the Lance pilots so that 7 people
> would drop off the list of "wanting to fly the Lance", just to be fair to
> the rest of the club.

Ah, the economic solution to excess demand. Reasonable.

> Personally, I pay the fee, and I wouldn't think it
> fair that the rest of the club pays for the Lance's fixed costs if they
> couldn't fly it.

Also reasonable. And I assume that, despite the fact that the motivation
for the premium is controlling demand, the extra income goes to the Lance's
fixed costs?

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

August 1st 05, 06:06 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>> No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.
>>
>>How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to
>>get
>
> I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
> prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
> those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something.

Interesting. We have dedicated reserves, which is a little different than
what you're describing. That is, we do have an engine overhaul reserve for
each airplane. These accrue over several years, so "going w/o needing one"
over a year is more the norm than the exception.

Wouldn't you have a problem if (for example) two planes needed an overhaul
w/in the same year if you're not building up engine overhaul reserves over
multiple years? Or am I missing something?

We also have "interior" and "paint" reserves (and, I think, "prop reserves"
for the two constant speed props...but I'm not sure).

More, items like an engine reserve are usually included in an aircraft's
hourly rate (as opposed to a monthly fee). So your fleet upgrades come out
of hourly rates?

Our avionic reserve is paid by monthly, but the engine, paint, etc. reserves
are paid by hourly. I don't recall all the math, but I believe (for
example) the hourly rate is computed so as to accrue the price of an
overhaul ($20,000?) in 2000 hours.

[...]
>>Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
>>(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
>>upgrades independent of increasing membership.
>
> Like I said, by making sure the monthly fees have an upgrade reserve.

I've been assuming that any upgrade funding would be time-based (and
therefore to be taken from the monthly). But, if I've understood correctly
(and as I wrote above) your club is paying for upgrades out of hourly.

Have you a reason for choosing one over the other? I've been thinking along
the lines of avionics, and I think of new features/models/capabilities as
coming over calendar time rather than flight hours. That's why I tend to
think "monthly" for upgrades.

>>> The other local club at our field
>>> does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
>>> increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
>>> additional assessment.
>>
>>That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?
>
> Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
> They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
> double ours.

Hmm. That's almost $200,000 equity per airplane. Unless those are recent
models or very upgraded or all "high end" aircraft, that seems high to me.

- Andrew

Michael

August 1st 05, 08:38 PM

Clubs vary a lot. Paul Tomblin gives you a lot of good questions to
ask but misses the most important ones, in my opinion:

What are the rules? And I mean all of them. Read them carefully.
Remember, eventually they will probably be applied against a member in
the worst possible way. That member may be you. Be sure you're OK
with that.

How are rules made? Do all rules have to be approved by a majority of
the membership? Or just the majority of those who vote, and if the
latter what constitutes a quorum? Or can club officers make rules? Do
they like to?

The primary problem with clubs is that they tend to have more rules
than FBO's, and WAY more rules than the insurance company will impose
on you in a partnership. On the other hand, it's harder to walk away
from a club than an FBO because you're invested.

Michael

Paul Tomblin

August 1st 05, 09:28 PM

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
>> prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
>> those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something.
>Wouldn't you have a problem if (for example) two planes needed an overhaul
>w/in the same year if you're not building up engine overhaul reserves over
>multiple years? Or am I missing something?

Well, we're financed by debt - our planes are valued at $500,000 and we've
got a $500,000 line of credit. If we need two engines at the same time,
we just go further into debt and need more time to pay it off. But the
goal is not to get totally out of debt, just to keep the debt at a
managable level - I think right now we're $100,000 right now, because of
the aircraft upgrades and engines we've put in in recent years.

>therefore to be taken from the monthly). But, if I've understood correctly
>(and as I wrote above) your club is paying for upgrades out of hourly.

No, out of monthly.

>>>> The other local club at our field
>>>> does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
>> Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
>> They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
>> double ours.
>
>Hmm. That's almost $200,000 equity per airplane. Unless those are recent
>models or very upgraded or all "high end" aircraft, that seems high to me.

I could be wrong about that. 10 years ago when I was first looking, their
share price was only $4,000 (for three planes), and it was out of my reach
then. Sure, looking back it would probably have been a good investment,
but I didn't have $4,000 to spare then and I don't have whatever their
share price is now.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Why is there only one Monopolies and Mergers Commission?
-- JNP

Paul Tomblin

August 1st 05, 09:31 PM

In a previous article, "Michael" > said:
>What are the rules? And I mean all of them. Read them carefully.
>Remember, eventually they will probably be applied against a member in
>the worst possible way. That member may be you. Be sure you're OK
>with that.

Only if you're a total dick. We've got rules like "minimum hours on
weekends" that have only been applied once in the 10 years I've been with
the club, and only because there was a dick who was abusing the club -
booking the most popular plane for several weeks in the middle of the
summer, and then only flying it for one day or not flying it at all. So
we enforced the rule we had about minimum hours, and then instituted some
new rules about maximum scheduling.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I'd sooner volunteer to admin every Windows box at $ORKPLACE (and it's a
biiiig place) than think for one second that I could understand the thought
process of a teenage female. -- David P. Murphy

Andrew Gideon

August 1st 05, 09:42 PM

Michael wrote:

> The primary problem with clubs is that they tend to have more rules
> than FBO's, and WAY more rules than the insurance company will impose
> on you in a partnership. On the other hand, it's harder to walk away
> from a club than an FBO because you're invested.

My experience comparing rules in clubs and FBOs doesn't match yours. But
perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you mean.

FBOs are far more strict about utilization rules (which can be expressed as
additional fees like daily minimums) than any club I've seen, for example.

However, I would agree that clubs can have rules that are more *complex*
than an FBO. We've a point system for scheduling, for example, while
Paul's club has some explicit time periods when a booking may or may not be
made. An FBO just wants to get planes flying (or at least charging), but a
club may have additional motivations and the rules are designed to achieve
those.

Paul's club's scheduling rules were expressed very clearly, and with the
motivation behind them explained. My club's rules are simpler (in my
opinion {8^), but the linkage between the rule and the goal harder to
express. I plan to try to explain our rules in a style similar to that
used by Paul's club's website (thanks, Paul {8^).

There are rules w/in a club for matters that would never arise at an FBO.
We've a policy covering the movement of aircraft to where maintenance is to
be performed. An FBO wouldn't have renters involved in this, so no rules
would be required.

So...depending upon what you mean, I might agree with you. I don't think
clubs tend to be more strict, but I do think that the rules need to cover
more ground than found at an FBO.

The one possible exception is that we've currency rules on our complex
aircraft that are more strict than those on any of the other aircraft. But
this was something we accepted to bring down our insurance rate. I suppose
an FBO might [be forced to] make a similar choice.

I do agree with your advice about knowing the rules. I'd add that one
should learn how the club handles upgrades, what insurance it has, what it
requires of a member, how easily one can depart, what the club does in the
face of an accident or incident, how aircraft problems are addressed, how
well maintained the aircraft are (even "little" things like landing lights,
which was my pet peeve at one local FBO), etc.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon

August 1st 05, 10:00 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

[...]
> Well, we're financed by debt - our planes are valued at $500,000 and we've
> got a $500,000 line of credit. If we need two engines at the same time,
> we just go further into debt and need more time to pay it off. But the
> goal is not to get totally out of debt, just to keep the debt at a
> managable level - I think right now we're $100,000 right now, because of
> the aircraft upgrades and engines we've put in in recent years.
>
>>therefore to be taken from the monthly). But, if I've understood
>>correctly (and as I wrote above) your club is paying for upgrades out of
>>hourly.
>
> No, out of monthly.

I'm still not following how this works. To my mind, the debt merely acts
like a buffer which permits tomorrow's dollars to pay for today's upgrades.
So it shouldn't change the overall structure.

Perhaps I should be asking how you repay that debt. Is it all paid out of
monthly fees? If so, and if you use debt to fund engine overhauls and
such, then the monthly fees are being used to pay for engine overhauls.

I know that my club wouldn't go for that, and I tend to agree with that.
Paying for overhauls and such - items that occur based upon flight time -
should be charged to the members that fly. A member flying twice as much
as another should pay twice as much into the overhaul reserve.

Paying for overhauls - or indirectly, by repaying the debt of an overhaul -
out of monthly causes all members to pay equally regardless of how much
they fly.

One interesting aspect of my club is that, steady state, we run completely
debt free. Any debts are transient. For example, I mentioned earlier that
we slowly increased our equity to buy a new plane. Rather than await the
completion of the equity increase process, we bought the plane with owed
dollars (some owed to our various reserves, some owed to members that
loaned some money, and - perhaps - some owed to a bank).

The equity growth has long since finished, though, so we're debt free again.

This appears to be a big deal. At least, some of the club members view this
as a significant benefit. As I see debt as a buffer, I'm not sure why this
is a big deal (although it's nice to not be paying finance charges, I agree
{8^).

Well...one nice aspect of avoiding debt for costs like overhauls is that the
users today pay for the wear and tear they put upon the equipment today.
Funding that with debt means that next year's user is paying for this
year's wear and tear.

But if costs are continually rising, paying for last year's use may be the
better deal. Hmm. Then why are owners supposed to accrue reserves rather
than fund the overhaul with debt and then pay that back?

- Andrew

Michael

August 2nd 05, 04:54 PM

> My experience comparing rules in clubs and FBOs doesn't match yours. But
> perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you mean.

You are.

> FBOs are far more strict about utilization rules (which can be expressed as
> additional fees like daily minimums) than any club I've seen, for example.

That's exactly what I don't mean. Those are fees, not rules. They
don't tell you what you can and can't do - they merely impose a
strictly financial cost. They don't tell you that you can't make a
particular flight - they merely tell you how many dollars you will pay.
Nothing else.

> The one possible exception is that we've currency rules on our complex
> aircraft that are more strict than those on any of the other aircraft.

Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking
about. Some other club examples (all real):
Maximum crosswind limit 10 kts - google for this one, it was discussed
here.
No formation flying in club airplanes.
No aerobatics in club planes. Even the aerobatic ones. Not unless the
designated aerobatic instructor approves. And there is no designated
aerobatic instructor, and hasn't been in years.
No night flying without an instrument rating. No flights more than 200
miles from home without an instrument rating.
You get the idea. It's not that FBO's don't ever have such rules -
some do - but it's a lot cheaper (and often politically easier) to be
checked out at several FBO's and just choose the ones with rules that
work for your flight than it is to be a member of several clubs.

But these are just the explicit rules. Clubs can also have safety
committees - ones that can decide to ground you, make you fly with an
instructor, whatever - because they decided you weren't safe. Of
course an FBO can also tell you that you're not welcome to rent there
anymore - but you have little or nothing invested in the FBO. Also,
the FBO has to make that decision carefully - it affects his
pocketbook. Not so the club safety committee.

Paul made a statement - that the rules will only be enforced against
you in the worst possible way if you're a complete dick. Just remember
- YOU don't get to decide if you're a complete dick. Someone else
does. Someone who may not like you.

Michael

Andrew Gideon

August 2nd 05, 06:45 PM

Michael wrote:

[...]
> Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking
> about. Some other club examples (all real):
> Maximum crosswind limit 10 kts - google for this one, it was discussed
> here.
> No formation flying in club airplanes.
> No aerobatics in club planes. Even the aerobatic ones. Not unless the
> designated aerobatic instructor approves. And there is no designated
> aerobatic instructor, and hasn't been in years.
> No night flying without an instrument rating. No flights more than 200
> miles from home without an instrument rating.
> You get the idea. It's not that FBO's don't ever have such rules -
> some do - but it's a lot cheaper (and often politically easier) to be
> checked out at several FBO's and just choose the ones with rules that
> work for your flight than it is to be a member of several clubs.
>
> But these are just the explicit rules.

Okay. I'll defer to your experience that these exist, but I have to say
that they don't in the (small set of) clubs of which I'm aware.

The only rule of that sort in our club is a limit on XCs to 300 miles for
members in their first months (one month? three? I don't recall).

On the other hand, FBOs with which I've experience, make certain airports
off limits (ie. LDJ), prevent grass field operations, etc.

> Not so the club safety committee.

True, but I've never heard of this abused. And there are rules which govern
the operation of at least our safety committee...no such limits exist on
what an FBO may do to your ability to fly their planes.

> Paul made a statement - that the rules will only be enforced against
> you in the worst possible way if you're a complete dick. Just remember
> - YOU don't get to decide if you're a complete dick. Someone else
> does. Someone who may not like you.

There are rules which govern how rules may be used against one too. We'd a
case where one particular person - with the best of intentions, as it
happens - exceeded his authority. The person against whom the authority
was used complained properly, and the situation was fixed.

There's no question that a club - or even a partnership - will have more
structure than owning one's own. But there are some advantages to the club
beyond the financial.

My favorite is diversity of aircraft. My ideal club will have something
like Super Decathalons and Cessna 206s or Cherokee 6s or such. One for
fun; one to pack up the family and go.

There also risk management; you can still fly if some planes are down for
maintenance. That's tough to do if there's only one plane.

And of course there's the load-sharing involved combined with the
educational experience of maintaining and managing planes with people that
have been doing it longer.

Still, I agree with your statement about knowing the rules.

- Andrew

Don Tuite

August 2nd 05, 08:04 PM

Smaller clubs may be better on rules.

Ours say you have to comply with the FARs and use our approved
instructors.

And you can't fly if you're behind in your dues.

You can be voted out if you act like a jerk. To anybody's knowledge,
that's happened exactly once. In 59 years. We're pretty sure of that
because a member who moved away and sold out about a year ago is the
son of a founder. Several members have belonged for more than 20
years.

The club is a non-profit corporation.

There are 11 members and 2 planes. To join, you have to buy out a
current member and be approved by the rest of the members. You
negotiate the price of the membership with the person you're buying it
from.

Monthly dues are based on the club's fixed costs: hangar, taxes,
insurance, annuals, etc.

Hourly fees (tach time) are based on variable costs: fuel, engine
reserve, historical maintenance data, etc.

Booking is via Yahoo. Each plane has a Yahoo ID and password. You
log in as the airplane and make an entry on the airplane's calendar.

We have a '67 235. We just sold our '61 172B so we could buy either a
Tiger or a Challenger. To make up the difference, we assessed
ourselves an extra $100/month for 18 months.

The current thinking is that we won't buy a complex or a twin. Too
big a hit on maintenance and insurance, too hard to find a buyer when
somebody wants to sell a membership. One plane should be for
travelling, one should be a compromise between travelling and boring
holes in the sky.

Don

Dylan Smith

August 3rd 05, 05:01 AM

On 2005-08-02, Michael > wrote:
> Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, that's the sort of thing I'm talking
> about. Some other club examples (all real):
> Maximum crosswind limit 10 kts - google for this one, it was discussed
> here.
<snip>

On the flip side, the club I used to be in made it quite hard to make
new rules (which was a good thing) and the existing rules weren't at all
onerous - no restrictions on flying to grass runways (which most FBOs
have), nor length restrictions nor restrictions on whether the airfield
is public or private use - it merely had to be charted *somewhere*
(because that's what the insurance said). Plus 24/7 access to the
aircraft.

When joining a club, apart from the normal things you'd check out at an
FBO, check the rules/bylaws, and check how easily they can be added to
or be changed. If the rules are agreeable and difficult to change,
you're likely to be happy with the club.

> But these are just the explicit rules. Clubs can also have safety
> committees - ones that can decide to ground you, make you fly with an

On the other hand, our club had never (and to my knowledge, since I left
the area and therefore the club) still hasn't in 25 years of operation.
The FBOs that fly a similar amount of hours have all destroyed more than
one plane in that time. This is reflected by the club still being able
to get a decent insurance policy, and members not having to spend extra
on renter's insurance.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"