Advice On Flying Clubs

Hey All...

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like to
get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

Jay,
take a look in "YOUR PILOT'S LICENSE" by JERRY A. EICHENBERGER pages 52 -
54. McGraw-Hill.
(Go to your nearest Barnes & Noble store, have a coffee and read those 3
pages....)
regards Karl-Heinz


"Jay Beckman" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:yP_Ge.205090$Qo.190101@fed1read01...
Hey All...

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

"Karl-Heinz Kuenzel" wrote in message
...

Jay,
take a look in "YOUR PILOT'S LICENSE" by JERRY A. EICHENBERGER pages 52 -
54. McGraw-Hill.
(Go to your nearest Barnes & Noble store, have a coffee and read those 3
pages....)
regards Karl-Heinz


Thanks for the suggestion K-H, but could you just give me the "gist" of what
the author has to say?

I can guarentee my B&N won't have that book...their aviation section sucks
rocks. Makes me miss living in Dayton, OH (almost) where I used to do my
book shopping at the USAF Museum store.

Thanks,

Jay

In a previous article, "Jay Beckman" said:

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like to
get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

There are a lot of different types of flying clubs.

The main difference is that some clubs make you buy a share of their
fleet, and the share price may appreciate in value over the course of your
membership, and then you sell it when you leave. Other clubs, such as
mine (http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/) charge you an initiation fee
when you join, but don't give any of it back if you quit.

Another major difference is how they pay for upgrades. Some clubs will
levy the members if they want to buy a new plane or upgrade the panels or
whatever, and others (like mine) will do it entirely through debt and
lines of credit. Our club has in the last five years sold two Archers,
bought a newer Archer and a Dakota, put a Stormscope in the Dakota,
painted the Dakota, and put new engines in two of our planes, all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.
We're planning a new engine in the Dakota next year, and possibly in the
Lance the year after that.

Before joining a club, you should ask about:
- What it costs to join?
- Whether that's a share or an initiation fee?
- Whether they levy the membership for upgrades? If so, how much are they
likely to levy?
- What's the ratio of members to planes? (We find that once you get over 15
members per plane, people start complaining about aircraft availability.)
- How do they schedule planes, and is the "scheduling book" visible to
all, and accessible through the Internet AND through telephone? (You
can't always count on getting to the Internet when you're weathered in
somewhere along the way.)
- How is the fleet maintained? Do the members do a lot of the
maintenance, or is it done by professionals? (Our club used to do a
lot, but years ago we decided to get everything done by professionals for
liability reasons. We don't even change our own oil now.)
- Whether the fleet is a good fit to your mission?
- What sort of checkouts and currency requirements they have for different
planes in the fleet?
- Do they allow all weekend or week long bookings in the high season? Is
there a surcharge if you don't fly a certain number of hours on a long
booking?
- Do they do social activities or flying activities as a club?
- Do club members get together to fly to Oshkosh in club aircraft?

You'll also need to look at the planes yourself to see if they're clean
and well maintained. Garbage in the planes or "barely legal" maintenance
is a good sign that the members don't have pride of ownership in their
planes, which I think is a bad thing. The worst thing that can happen to
a flying club is for most of the members to start treating it like a cheap
FBO. Once that happens, the people who do all the work in the club, the
officers and other volunteers, will start burning out and then nothing
will get done.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
[Y]ou should write for the comprehension of the next programmer who
looks at your code, keep it clean and sensible, and *not* play
any obscure Jedi mind-tricks. -- Anthony de Boer

Paul Tomblin wrote:

all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

This is an issue in the club to which I belong. We try to fund upgrade by
increasing equity. That works as you described a sha One buys in and
cashes out at the end. The only loss is the opportunity cost of leaving
that equity with the club for the duration of membership.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Similarly, we don't use much of an initiation fee that's not paid back. The
only cost "lost" on joining is the cost of the checkride and such.

I'd be *very* interested in more discussion here regarding how other clubs
do this.

- Andrew

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits. The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
tapes hurtling down the highway.
-- Andrew Tannenbaum possibly quoting Warren Jackson

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message ...
In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
all without
hitting up our members for anything extra beyond their monthly dues.

How does this work financially? For example, doesn't it mean that your
monthly fees (fixed or variable or both) are "overpriced" to pay for future
upgrades?

No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits. The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.


How much are the monthly dues?
--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

In a previous article, "John Clonts" said:
"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
additional assessment. When we, on the other hand, traded in two 6,000
hour Archers for a 2,000 hour Archer and a Dakota, we didn't even raise
our monthly dues.

How much are the monthly dues?

http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
$80 a month. Which is less than you'd pay for renters insurance,
according to AOPA.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Revenge is an integral part of forgiving and forgetting.
-- The BOFH

Paul Tomblin wrote:


No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to get
accepted (though there was such a fund in the past, I believe). And it's
rather small.


Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Obviously, increasing equity is one approach. And it's what my club has
preferred over the years. But I'm interested in at least learning what the
other options are.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did
this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits.

That's somewhat higher than the "throwaway cost" of joining our club. But
the equity (or "share" or "buy in") is $5000. Reminder: that's returned
when a member leaves.

The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment.

That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

- Andrew

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to get

I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something. We were
considering GPS options when we got hit with this insurance problem on our
Lance. The Lance needs a new engine, but it's hardly worth putting
$30,000 into it if the insurance companies are going to get even more
chicken next year and refuse to insure it at all.

Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Like I said, by making sure the monthly fees have an upgrade reserve.

The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment.

That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
double ours.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Orcs killed: none. Disappointing. Stubble update: I look rugged and
manly. Yes! Keep wanting to drop-kick Gimli. Holding myself back. Still
not King." - the very secret diary of Aragorn son of Arathron