adjacent airspace handoff

[Gary Drescher]

Say I fly VFR from ISP to FRG. It's less than two miles from the end of
ISP's Class C to the start of FRG's Class D (unless I stay below 1500 for
more than ten miles, which I'd rather not do). In a situation like this,
would the Class C controller typically 1) hand me off to the Class D
controller; 2) approve an early frequency change; or 3) neither?

--Gary

[Bob Gardner]

I would address this question to someone at ISP, if I were in this
situation. However, my educated guess is that the handoff has already been
coordinated before the wheels leave the ground. This is surely the subject
of a "letter of agreement" between the facilities.

Bob Gardner

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> Say I fly VFR from ISP to FRG. It's less than two miles from the end of
> ISP's Class C to the start of FRG's Class D (unless I stay below 1500 for
> more than ten miles, which I'd rather not do). In a situation like this,
> would the Class C controller typically 1) hand me off to the Class D
> controller; 2) approve an early frequency change; or 3) neither?
>
> --Gary
>
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:59:37 -0400, "Gary Drescher"
> wrote in
>::

>Say I fly VFR from ISP to FRG. It's less than two miles from the end of
>ISP's Class C to the start of FRG's Class D (unless I stay below 1500 for
>more than ten miles, which I'd rather not do). In a situation like this,
>would the Class C controller typically 1) hand me off to the Class D
>controller; 2) approve an early frequency change; or 3) neither?
>

My experience has been, that if the Class C controller hands you off
to Approach Control (usually as a result of your request to Clearance
Delivery), airspace transitions will be coordinated.

[john smith]

Call ISP and ask for copies of their LOA's with surrounding ATC facilities.

Bob Gardner wrote:
> I would address this question to someone at ISP, if I were in this
> situation. However, my educated guess is that the handoff has already been
> coordinated before the wheels leave the ground. This is surely the subject
> of a "letter of agreement" between the facilities.

> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> ...
>>Say I fly VFR from ISP to FRG. It's less than two miles from the end of
>>ISP's Class C to the start of FRG's Class D (unless I stay below 1500 for
>>more than ten miles, which I'd rather not do). In a situation like this,
>>would the Class C controller typically 1) hand me off to the Class D
>>controller; 2) approve an early frequency change; or 3) neither?

[Mike W.]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> My experience has been, that if the Class C controller hands you off
> to Approach Control (usually as a result of your request to Clearance
> Delivery), airspace transitions will be coordinated.
>
>Probably class C tower>class C departure, then they will instruct you to
contact class D tower.

--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
>
> Say I fly VFR from ISP to FRG. It's less than two miles from the end of
> ISP's Class C to the start of FRG's Class D (unless I stay below 1500 for
> more than ten miles, which I'd rather not do). In a situation like this,
> would the Class C controller typically 1) hand me off to the Class D
> controller; 2) approve an early frequency change; or 3) neither?
>

FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 7. Visual

Section 8. Class C Service- Terminal

7-8-8. TERMINATION OF SERVICE

Unless aircraft are landing at secondary airports or have requested
termination of service while in the outer area, provide services until the
aircraft departs the associated outer area. Terminate Class C service to
aircraft landing at other than the primary airport at a sufficient distance
from the airport to allow the pilot to change to the appropriate
frequency for traffic and airport information.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CHANGE TO ADVISORY FREQUENCY APPROVED,

or

CONTACT (facility identification).

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> My experience has been, that if the Class C controller hands you off
> to Approach Control (usually as a result of your request to Clearance
> Delivery), airspace transitions will be coordinated.
>

The Class C controller is Approach Control.

[Gary Drescher]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Say I fly VFR from ISP to FRG. It's less than two miles from the end of
>> ISP's Class C to the start of FRG's Class D (unless I stay below 1500 for
>> more than ten miles, which I'd rather not do). In a situation like this,
>> would the Class C controller typically 1) hand me off to the Class D
>> controller; 2) approve an early frequency change; or 3) neither?
>>
>
> FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control
>
> Chapter 7. Visual
>
> Section 8. Class C Service- Terminal
>
> 7-8-8. TERMINATION OF SERVICE
>
> Unless aircraft are landing at secondary airports or have requested
> termination of service while in the outer area, provide services until the
> aircraft departs the associated outer area. Terminate Class C service to
> aircraft landing at other than the primary airport at a sufficient
> distance
> from the airport to allow the pilot to change to the appropriate
> frequency for traffic and airport information.

Thanks. I notice belatedly that AIM 3-2-4f2 conveys this information too.

--Gary

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:37:16 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
t>::

>
>The Class C controller is Approach Control.

I was referring to the Class C Local Controller.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> I was referring to the Class C Local Controller.
>

Well, unless you're staying in the pattern, the Class C Local Controller
will ship everyone to Approach Control.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:07:23 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
>::

>
>Well, unless you're staying in the pattern, the Class C Local Controller
>will ship everyone to Approach Control.

Everyone? Actually, my experience has been that the Class C Local
Controller hands departing flights off to Radar Advisories before the
hand off to _Departure_ Control. Departure Control will terminate
Radar Advisory Service, and coordination through en route airspace, at
some point unless Departure Control is aware you wish to continue
receiving the service beyond that point.

At KSNA, if you append the word 'local' after the name of the VFR
departure you request from Clearance Delivery, your flight will not be
handed off to Departure Control at all; after you exit the Class C
boundary, service is terminated: 1200 beacon code. The word 'local'
implies that you will be operating in the local area and do not wish
to receive Radar Advisory Service.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Everyone?
>

Yup, unless the local controller is also performing as approach control.


>
> Actually, my experience has been that the Class C Local
> Controller hands departing flights off to Radar Advisories before the
> hand off to _Departure_ Control. Departure Control will terminate
> Radar Advisory Service, and coordination through en route airspace, at
> some point unless Departure Control is aware you wish to continue
> receiving the service beyond that point.
>

All Class C radar controllers issue radar advisories.

[Newps]

Larry Dighera wrote:


>
>
> Everyone?

No, of course not, that's ridiculous.


Actually, my experience has been that the Class C Local
> Controller hands departing flights off to Radar Advisories before the
> hand off to _Departure_ Control.

Lost me there. If the local controller is done with you he says contact
departure. That's the next guy.


Departure Control will terminate
> Radar Advisory Service, and coordination through en route airspace, at
> some point unless Departure Control is aware you wish to continue
> receiving the service beyond that point.

This contradicts itself. You either get terminated or you continue on
with the center.


>
> At KSNA, if you append the word 'local' after the name of the VFR
> departure you request from Clearance Delivery, your flight will not be
> handed off to Departure Control at all; after you exit the Class C
> boundary, service is terminated: 1200 beacon code. The word 'local'
> implies that you will be operating in the local area and do not wish
> to receive Radar Advisory Service.

So you are saying that the guy who gave your take off clearance will
terminate you at 5 miles, which is the boundary of the class C? This
would be a local thing. We do similar things with certain aircraft.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:51:23 -0600, Newps > wrote
in >::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>>>On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:07:23 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
>::
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, unless you're staying in the pattern, the Class C Local Controller
>>>will ship everyone to Approach Control.
>>
>>
>> Everyone?
>
>No, of course not, that's ridiculous.
>

Right.

>
> Actually, my experience has been that the Class C Local
>> Controller hands departing flights off to Radar Advisories before the
>> hand off to _Departure_ Control.
>
>Lost me there. If the local controller is done with you he says contact
>departure. That's the next guy.
>

Actually, although it isn't published in the A/FD (But is published by
the John Wayne Tower Pilot/Controller Work Group, and appears in the
Air Guide Publications Flight Guide), KSNA, Santa Ana, California has
an intermediary controller between the Local (tower) Controller and
Departure Control (TRACON) called Radar Advisory. It is likely
specific to that airport. It is mentioned here:
http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/JOHNWAYNEAIRPORTOPERATIONS.pdf
http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/JOHNWAYNEAIRPORTOPERATIONS.htm

>
>> Departure Control will terminate
>> Radar Advisory Service, and coordination through en route airspace, at
>> some point unless Departure Control is aware you wish to continue
>> receiving the service beyond that point.
>
>This contradicts itself. You either get terminated or you continue on
>with the center.
>

See the links above. If you find that information inadequate to
resolve the misunderstanding, I'll be happy to answer your specific
questions.

>>
>> At KSNA, if you append the word 'local' after the name of the VFR
>> departure you request from Clearance Delivery, your flight will not be
>> handed off to Departure Control at all; after you exit the Class C
>> boundary, service is terminated: 1200 beacon code. The word 'local'
>> implies that you will be operating in the local area and do not wish
>> to receive Radar Advisory Service.
>
>So you are saying that the guy who gave your take off clearance will
>terminate you at 5 miles, which is the boundary of the class C? This
>would be a local thing. We do similar things with certain aircraft.

If you append the word 'local' after the name of the VFR departure you
request from Clearance Delivery, ATC services will be terminated at
the boundary of the Class C surface area.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Actually, although it isn't published in the A/FD (But is published by
> the John Wayne Tower Pilot/Controller Work Group, and appears in the
> Air Guide Publications Flight Guide), KSNA, Santa Ana, California has
> an intermediary controller between the Local (tower) Controller and
> Departure Control (TRACON) called Radar Advisory. It is likely
> specific to that airport. It is mentioned here:
> http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/JOHNWAYNEAIRPORTOPERATIONS.pdf
> http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/JOHNWAYNEAIRPORTOPERATIONS.htm
>

Departure Control, by any other name, is still departure control.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:47:06 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
t>::

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Actually, although it isn't published in the A/FD (But is published by
>> the John Wayne Tower Pilot/Controller Work Group, and appears in the
>> Air Guide Publications Flight Guide), KSNA, Santa Ana, California has
>> an intermediary controller between the Local (tower) Controller and
>> Departure Control (TRACON) called Radar Advisory. It is likely
>> specific to that airport. It is mentioned here:
>> http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/JOHNWAYNEAIRPORTOPERATIONS.pdf
>> http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/JOHNWAYNEAIRPORTOPERATIONS.htm
>>
>
>Departure Control, by any other name, is still departure control.
>

That comment reveals the fact that you failed to read the information
at the links provided.

The intermediary controller between the Local (tower) Controller and
Departure Control (TRACON) called Radar Advisory is manned by tower
personnel; it is not Departure Control.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> That comment reveals the fact that you failed to read the information
> at the links provided.
>
> The intermediary controller between the Local (tower) Controller and
> Departure Control (TRACON) called Radar Advisory is manned by tower
> personnel; it is not Departure Control.
>

What does it matter where they're located? It's Class C airspace so they
have to provide Class C services. If it has the properties of departure
control it's departure control no matter what it's called.