Metric Instruments?

[AFSax]

I'm trying to do my homework on importing a glider from Germany to the
U.S. Shipping and registration issues shouldn't be a problem, but I'm
curious about the flight instruments. Can I use the metric instruments
in the states? I'm kind of used to metric instruments and I think that
when doing most of my flight calculations, I would prefer to have
metric instruments except for maybe adding a feet altimeter for ATC and
airspace purposes. Does anyone know if there's any problem with this?
I don't really want to have to replace all of my instruments. Any
experience you can share would be very helpful. Thank you.

[Jeremy Zawodny]

AFSax wrote:
> I'm trying to do my homework on importing a glider from Germany to the
> U.S. Shipping and registration issues shouldn't be a problem, but I'm
> curious about the flight instruments. Can I use the metric instruments
> in the states? I'm kind of used to metric instruments and I think that
> when doing most of my flight calculations, I would prefer to have
> metric instruments except for maybe adding a feet altimeter for ATC and
> airspace purposes. Does anyone know if there's any problem with this?
> I don't really want to have to replace all of my instruments. Any
> experience you can share would be very helpful. Thank you.
>

I know of at least one commercially operated glider (an ASW-24 in
Parowan, UT) that's eqipped with metric instruments. That doesn't mean
it's legal, but I strongly suspect it is based on that evidence.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Zawodny]

AFSax wrote:
> I'm trying to do my homework on importing a glider from Germany to the
> U.S. Shipping and registration issues shouldn't be a problem, but I'm
> curious about the flight instruments. Can I use the metric instruments
> in the states? I'm kind of used to metric instruments and I think that
> when doing most of my flight calculations, I would prefer to have
> metric instruments except for maybe adding a feet altimeter for ATC and
> airspace purposes. Does anyone know if there's any problem with this?
> I don't really want to have to replace all of my instruments. Any
> experience you can share would be very helpful. Thank you.
>

I know of at least one commercially operated glider (an ASW-24 in
Parowan, UT) that's eqipped with metric instruments. That doesn't mean
it's legal, but I strongly suspect it is based on that evidence.

Jeremy

[AFSax]

I don't see anything to indicate that it wouldn't be legal to stick
with the metric instruments as long as it meets the type certificate
requirements, which it seems to. I will install a second TSO'd feet
altimeter since charts and everything in the states is in feet, but I
don't see why I'd have to change anything else. I know of at least one
YAK airplane that has retained all of its original instruments except
for a new feet altimeter and a transponder. If anyone has any other
experiences let me know.

Adam

[Stanford Korwin]

At 12:18 22 August 2005, Afsax wrote:
>I don't see anything to indicate that it wouldn't be
>legal to stick
>with the metric instruments as long as it meets the
>type certificate
>requirements, which it seems to. I will install a
>second TSO'd feet
>altimeter since charts and everything in the states
>is in feet, but I
>don't see why I'd have to change anything else. I
>know of at least one
>YAK airplane that has retained all of its original
>instruments except
>for a new feet altimeter and a transponder. If anyone
>has any other
>experiences let me know.
>
>Adam


Except, perhaps, the ASI - so as not to confuse 50
kph with 50 knots in the heat of the moment !

This has, I am told, happened - with unfortunate consequences.

I have imported a glider from Germany (to the UK) -
and replaced the ASI and altimeter only - but left
the fancy push/pull variometer and the (absolutely
brilliant) Winter 'Sollfahrtgeber' entirely alone -
with, absolutely, no problems.

sta13nski.

[Chris Reed]

Stanford Korwin wrote:
> At 12:18 22 August 2005, Afsax wrote:
>
>>I don't see anything to indicate that it wouldn't be
>>legal to stick
>>with the metric instruments as long as it meets the
>>type certificate
>>requirements, which it seems to. I will install a
>>second TSO'd feet
>>altimeter since charts and everything in the states
>>is in feet, but I
>>don't see why I'd have to change anything else. I
>>know of at least one
>>YAK airplane that has retained all of its original
>>instruments except
>>for a new feet altimeter and a transponder. If anyone
>>has any other
>>experiences let me know.
>>
>>Adam
>
>
>
> Except, perhaps, the ASI - so as not to confuse 50
> kph with 50 knots in the heat of the moment !
>
> This has, I am told, happened - with unfortunate consequences.
>
> I have imported a glider from Germany (to the UK) -
> and replaced the ASI and altimeter only - but left
> the fancy push/pull variometer and the (absolutely
> brilliant) Winter 'Sollfahrtgeber' entirely alone -
> with, absolutely, no problems.
>
> sta13nski.
>
>
>
>
>
I really wouldn't worry about the ASI. I fly my Open Cirrus (in the UK)
on metric instruments. Its stall speed is lower than most glass gliders
at (book figure) 63 kph. If I try to fly the approach at 50 kph,
mistaking this for kt, I will realise my mistake in plenty of time to
correct the stall. I must say that because the difference is nearly 100%
between kt and kph I've never had a moment's confusion. I can't imagine
anyone having this problem on the launch either, as the aircraft won't
be flying at the 55 kph mark.

However, mph and kt seems to me like a recipe for disaster if you fly an
approach at the kt speed using an mph ASI.

[Wallace Berry]

In article om>,
"AFSax" > wrote:

> I'm trying to do my homework on importing a glider from Germany to the
> U.S. Shipping and registration issues shouldn't be a problem, but I'm
> curious about the flight instruments. Can I use the metric instruments
> in the states? I'm kind of used to metric instruments and I think that
> when doing most of my flight calculations, I would prefer to have
> metric instruments except for maybe adding a feet altimeter for ATC and
> airspace purposes. Does anyone know if there's any problem with this?
> I don't really want to have to replace all of my instruments. Any
> experience you can share would be very helpful. Thank you.

When I imported my glider, I was told by the DAR that the metric
instruments were not legal. I took him at his word.

--
Take out the airplane for reply

[AFSax]

Thanks for the input! I'm not really worried about flying with a
metric ASI since that's what I'm already used to from learning to soar
here in Germany. I think I'd probably have a harder time adjusting to
flying with a Knots ASI, but it wouldn't really be that much of an
adjustment, just have to learn the important speeds again in knots.
I'll talk to the FAA maintenance inspector that I know back home and
see what he knows about the legality of instruments in a sailplane.
The U.S. type certificate for the Phoebus says it must conform to the
German type certificate which states that the glider must have an ASI
and an altimeter, but the limits specified in the orginal German type
certificate are all metric...go figure! Thanks everybody for your help
and maybe I'll get to meet a few people when I get back to the states
and start flying there again...although I don't know exactly where in
the states I'll be going yet.

Adam

[Martin Gregorie]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:02:37 +0100, Chris Reed wrote:

> I really wouldn't worry about the ASI. I fly my Open Cirrus (in the UK)
> on metric instruments. Its stall speed is lower than most glass gliders
> at (book figure) 63 kph. If I try to fly the approach at 50 kph,
> mistaking this for kt, I will realise my mistake in plenty of time to
> correct the stall. I must say that because the difference is nearly 100%
> between kt and kph I've never had a moment's confusion. I can't imagine
> anyone having this problem on the launch either, as the aircraft won't
> be flying at the 55 kph mark.
>
Agreed. I've done virtually all my gliding in the UK using kts/ft
instruments. However, in 2003 I visited the Wasserkruppe and flew there
with no problems. Check ride was in an ASK-21. The ASI was the same model
with the same coloured snake but a different numeric scale. My club has a
couple of ASK-21s which I fly fairly regularly, so I know the sounds and
where the needle should point so I had no problems. They then gave me a
flight in an ASK-23, which I'd not flown before, but this time I was
briefed with the right speeds, so again no problem.

I was more bothered flying a kts/ft ASK-21 in America than I was flying
the German metric one because for some reason known only to history and
the FAA, American ASIs are upside down: at cruising speed the needle is
straight down, not upright as it should be.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Sleigh]

If you're happy with Feet and Knots, the additional
costs of a couple of instruments, after shipping from
Europe are minor.
Why not haggle the price down a bit, and leave them
with the seller, use discount to buy new ASI and altimeter


At 21:06 22 August 2005, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:02:37 +0100, Chris Reed wrote:
>
>> I really wouldn't worry about the ASI. I fly my Open
>>Cirrus (in the UK)
>> on metric instruments. Its stall speed is lower than
>>most glass gliders
>> at (book figure) 63 kph. If I try to fly the approach
>>at 50 kph,
>> mistaking this for kt, I will realise my mistake in
>>plenty of time to
>> correct the stall. I must say that because the difference
>>is nearly 100%
>> between kt and kph I've never had a moment's confusion.
>>I can't imagine
>> anyone having this problem on the launch either, as
>>the aircraft won't
>> be flying at the 55 kph mark.
>>
>Agreed. I've done virtually all my gliding in the UK
>using kts/ft
>instruments. However, in 2003 I visited the Wasserkruppe
>and flew there
>with no problems. Check ride was in an ASK-21. The
>ASI was the same model
>with the same coloured snake but a different numeric
>scale. My club has a
>couple of ASK-21s which I fly fairly regularly, so
>I know the sounds and
>where the needle should point so I had no problems.
>They then gave me a
>flight in an ASK-23, which I'd not flown before, but
>this time I was
>briefed with the right speeds, so again no problem.
>
>I was more bothered flying a kts/ft ASK-21 in America
>than I was flying
>the German metric one because for some reason known
>only to history and
>the FAA, American ASIs are upside down: at cruising
>speed the needle is
>straight down, not upright as it should be.
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. | Essex, UK
>org |
>
>

[AFSax]

I would, but at the moment I'm living in Germany and have a German
glider PPL so I would prefer to fly with it in its current
configuration and conform to everyone else that is flying here.
Although I'm sure there's someone out there who might want them when I
leave, although for some reason I want to keep it the way it is. I'm
plenty happy with the metric instruments as they are.

Adam

[Stefan]

Stanford Korwin wrote:

> Except, perhaps, the ASI - so as not to confuse 50
> kph with 50 knots in the heat of the moment !
>
> This has, I am told, happened - with unfortunate consequences.
>
> I have imported a glider from Germany (to the UK) -

If the glider was certificated in Germany, then I suspect it has a green
arc, a yellow arc, a red line and, most helpful, a yellow triangle.

Stefan

[Stanford Korwin]

At 14:30 23 August 2005, Stefan wrote:
>Stanford Korwin wrote:
>
>> Except, perhaps, the ASI - so as not to confuse 50
>> kph with 50 knots in the heat of the moment !
>>
>> This has, I am told, happened - with unfortunate consequences.
>>
>> I have imported a glider from Germany (to the UK)
>>-
>
>If the glider was certificated in Germany, then I suspect
>it has a green
>arc, a yellow arc, a red line and, most helpful, a
>yellow triangle.
>
>Stefan


It may well have done Stefan - we never saw the original
instruments because the importing agent replaced them
with ones calibrated in feet & knots - at very reasonable
cost.
Both my, then, partner and I did not feel that any
risks were worth taking for such a small outlay.

The glider was, in fact, an Open Cirrus - which someone
in this thread has commented on.

This is a very lightly loaded sailplane - and a pussy-cat
on take-off, approach and landing.
It is, simply, not fair to compare its flying characteristics
to an average, 15 m, machine - especially a lead-sled
like my (current) Std. Jantar-3 - or something like
a Cirrus 75.
Completely different animals.

Confusion between kph and knots has arisen - with a
resulting crash.

In aviation, if it can possibly happen, it will - and,
usually, more than once !

Why take risks - for the price of a relatively cheap
and easy-to-install instrument.

Thanks for your valuable input.

Stan,
UK.

[HL Falbaum]

Right on Stan!
In addition--one other, not so obvious point.
Our club imported to the USA, a K21 from Germany. Alt in feet, and ASI in
kt was part of the deal. When it arrived, we found that the ALT was a
metric, with a "feet" face on it. That is, one revolution of the long
pointer was 1000 meters, rounded off to 3000 ft. In Georgia USA, getting
above 6000 msl is a unusual feat, so we decided to live with it. Many club
members had problems relating to interpreting the pointer position instead
of reading the numbers. It happens a lot, and has been proven that pilots
tend to interpret the position, rather than the indication. (switch to a
digital numeric display and see what happens)..
So -- under stress---avoid the possibility of a misread---get a "real" feet
ALT. We replaced them and sold the converted metrics to be converted back
to metric!

--
Hartley Falbaum
"Stanford Korwin" > wrote in
message ...
> At 14:30 23 August 2005, Stefan wrote:
>>Stanford Korwin wrote:
>>
>>> Except, perhaps, the ASI - so as not to confuse 50
>>> kph with 50 knots in the heat of the moment !
>>>
>>> This has, I am told, happened - with unfortunate consequences.
>>>
>>> I have imported a glider from Germany (to the UK)
>>>-
>>
>>If the glider was certificated in Germany, then I suspect
>>it has a green
>>arc, a yellow arc, a red line and, most helpful, a
>>yellow triangle.
>>
>>Stefan
>
>
> It may well have done Stefan - we never saw the original
> instruments because the importing agent replaced them
> with ones calibrated in feet & knots - at very reasonable
> cost.
> Both my, then, partner and I did not feel that any
> risks were worth taking for such a small outlay.
>
> The glider was, in fact, an Open Cirrus - which someone
> in this thread has commented on.
>
> This is a very lightly loaded sailplane - and a pussy-cat
> on take-off, approach and landing.
> It is, simply, not fair to compare its flying characteristics
> to an average, 15 m, machine - especially a lead-sled
> like my (current) Std. Jantar-3 - or something like
> a Cirrus 75.
> Completely different animals.
>
> Confusion between kph and knots has arisen - with a
> resulting crash.
>
> In aviation, if it can possibly happen, it will - and,
> usually, more than once !
>
> Why take risks - for the price of a relatively cheap
> and easy-to-install instrument.
>
> Thanks for your valuable input.
>
> Stan,
> UK.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Glasfluegel]

I used to fly my Kestrel w/ metirc instruments in the USA. As I have a
Cambridge L-NAV I set the altitude to feet.
....Toby