ADF in Europe

[Ron Rosenfeld]

Are ADF's required outside of the United States?

I had a demo flight in a new Mooney Ovation2GX the other day. Quite a nice
airplane, by the way. Afterwards, looking at the price list, I noted an
ADF add-on for the Garmin G1000 panel as $15,500 (it's a Becker ADF, for
those who are interested; supposed to be accurate to 3° at some specified
signal strength).

Since the technology seems to be becoming outdated in the US, I wondered if
it was required elsewhere.

Thanks.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:07:54 +0100, Peter > wrote:

>Yes, the *carriage* of an ADF is mandatory for European airways flight
>- usually this means Class A which in many places extends all the way
>down.

Thank you for that information. And I'll guess that the ferry pilot was
probably flying an N-registered a/c, so I'm guessing the regulation applies
to all.

No, I would not want a bolt-on box under a glass panel. However, if I
should ever be able to afford something like that, my local avionics shop
said he could install it for a lot less. They just happen to be a Becker
dealer, too.

The background:

My wife is from the Azores, and it is possible we may go there for extended
periods (e.g. several months). If we do, from what I have read, I would be
able to fly IFR (and night) in my N-registered a/c with my FAA license;
where I would not have those privileges in a Portugese registered a/c
unless I took some onerous tests.

The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough
range to make that flight. Now I just have to figure out how to pay for it
:-).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Thomas Borchert]

Ron,

> Are ADF's required outside of the United States?
>

In Germany, ADFs are required for IFR training aircraft. This is
different from the UK, as Peter posted.

DMEs are required for IFR flying. No substitution by GPS. Yes, I
know...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:09:10 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Ron,
>
>> Are ADF's required outside of the United States?
>>
>
>In Germany, ADFs are required for IFR training aircraft. This is
>different from the UK, as Peter posted.
>
>DMEs are required for IFR flying. No substitution by GPS. Yes, I
>know...

So do the Diamond a/c with the G1000 being sold in Europe have both DME and
ADF as part of the package? For the Mooney Ovation2GX, that's $9,900 +
$15,500 USD for something that's of marginal utility outside the country.

Of course, that's the factory installed price. It can be quite a bit
cheaper to have those units installed after-market.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

> Maybe in Germany but not everywhere.
>

Which is pretty much what I said, isn't it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

I'v flown a couple of Austrian-registered Diamond Stars here in the US.
They had ADF and DME. My Star was built in Austria and has DME, but I
didn't have them install the ADF (although the ground plane and
attachment pad for the ADF antenna are there).

Steve
N432SC

[gwengler]

>> Even in the USA, no-DME restricts the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.

How so?

Gerd

[gwengler]

>> The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough range to make that flight.

How much fuel would you have in total including the long range tanks?

Gerd

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/25/2005 11:37, gwengler wrote:

>>> Even in the USA, no-DME restricts the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.
>
> How so?
>
> Gerd
>

If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.

Keep in mind that I did not cite all the rules/regs concerning this
issue, just the part that illustrates this point.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/25/2005 14:33, Peter wrote:

> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
>>airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
>>then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
>
> Thank you for saving me looking this up :) However, I get the
> impression that Americans worry about this detail about as much as
> Europeans worry about carrying an ADF when doing NDB approaches :)
>

Well, as a student, I have to worry about all the rules equally ;-)

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/25/2005 14:33, Peter wrote:

> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
>>airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
>>then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
>
> Thank you for saving me looking this up :) However, I get the
> impression that Americans worry about this detail about as much as
> Europeans worry about carrying an ADF when doing NDB approaches :)
>

Also note that this is a consideration for the selection of the
airport as an alternate. Once you get to the airport, you land
any which way you want (using GPS, etc.).

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/25/2005 14:49, Peter wrote:

> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>Well, as a student, I have to worry about all the rules equally ;-)
>
> You can imagine the fun that a European pilot has at the FAA IR oral
> :) Or indeed the FAA PPL oral.
>
> The examiner of course knows that no matter how many hours the pilot
> has, he won't know anything about roughly 40% of the material unless
> he has been reading the books over and over and over.
>

I was coming to that conclusion after listening to this thread today.
I guess I'm lucky that I can't afford to fly outside of the U.S. ;-)

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Newps]

Peter wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>
>>If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
>>airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
>>then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
>
>
> Thank you for saving me looking this up :) However, I get the
> impression that Americans worry about this detail about as much as
> Europeans worry about carrying an ADF when doing NDB approaches :)

If your GPS is WAAS capable then the requirement goes away in the US.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 25 Aug 2005 11:39:37 -0700, "gwengler" > wrote:

>>> The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough range to make that flight.
>
>How much fuel would you have in total including the long range tanks?
>
>Gerd

With the long range tanks, the total fuel capacity is 130 gallons. That
gives a maximum range (with reserves) of 2400NM. Although I could make it
non-stop from my home base, I would plan a fuel stop at CYYT (St. John's,
NF), from which LPL is "only" about 1250 NM.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:44:01 +0100, Peter > wrote:

>A DME is IMHO a lot more important than an ADF - again in the event of
>a GPS failure, or a RAIM failure. Even in the USA, no-DME restricts
>the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.

I don't believe there is any restriction for destinations, so long as the
location of the DME fix is in the GPS receiver's database.

For alternates there is some kind of requirement for a non-GPS approach if
one is using a TSO129 box. But the TSO146 (WAAS) boxes have no requirement
for a non-GPS approach at alternates. My experience has been with a
CNX80/GNS480 so I'm not really up on the non-WAAS stuff.

>
>Americans must be really taking the **** reading all this crap... but
>in Europe, one spends most of the time without any radar service (even
>when IFR, in the UK) so it's different to the USA.

I don't mind non-radar at all. But it sure seems as if European GA has a
lot more restrictions than we do.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:35:35 -0700, Mark Hansen >
wrote:

>On 8/25/2005 11:37, gwengler wrote:
>
>>>> Even in the USA, no-DME restricts the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>
>If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
>airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
>then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
>
>Keep in mind that I did not cite all the rules/regs concerning this
>issue, just the part that illustrates this point.

Mark,

That's true for most GPS receivers certified under TSO 129, but not true
for WAAS enabled units certified under TSO 146.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:07:07 +0100, Peter > wrote:

>
> Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>
>>Thank you for that information. And I'll guess that the ferry pilot was
>>probably flying an N-registered a/c, so I'm guessing the regulation applies
>>to all.
>
>Yes, the SR20 is EASA certified but the SR22 isn't (yet).
>
>The SR20 got certified only over the dead body of some of the European
>CAAs, whose view is that a parachute isn't something a proper pilot
>should be provided with :)
>
>>My wife is from the Azores, and it is possible we may go there for extended
>>periods (e.g. several months). If we do, from what I have read, I would be
>>able to fly IFR (and night) in my N-registered a/c with my FAA license;
>>where I would not have those privileges in a Portugese registered a/c
>>unless I took some onerous tests.
>
>To fly IFR in a Portugese reg aircraft you will need the JAA IR.
>
>You can get that from the FAA IR with a (minimum) of 15hrs additional
>flight training, plus the entire JAA PPL/IR ground school; approx 10
>of the 14 ATPL ground exams.
>
>You will also need a JAA PPL to attach it to; a few hours' flying and
>a checkride, plus probably all the 6 (7?) PPL ground exams.
>
>You could file an IFR-VFR flight plan; so long as you are VFR at the
>European FIR boundary and thereafter, you are legal.
>
>In practice, as any European "VFR" pilot with actual instrument skills
>and a suitable aircraft knows, you've got to be VFR where you might
>get caught, so an IFR approach (ILS etc) is out of the question given
>you aren't on an IFR FP by then. So you have to make sure you are VFR
>say 10-20 miles out, and preferably out of CAS, and definitely below
>Class A :)
>
>I've done this sort of thing 100% legally off Italy, flying some 100
>miles at 1000ft above the sea, 30 miles offshore so out of VHF radio
>contact. Americans have it pretty good!
>
>>The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough
>>range to make that flight. Now I just have to figure out how to pay for it
>>:-).
>
>Marry a richer woman :)
>
>It will go across the Atlantic?? What about the winds when going East?

I don't believe folk fly in the winter, when the winds are strongest. But
there are no legs to Europe longer than CYYT-LPL (St. John's, NF --> Lajes
Field, Azores) and that's only 1/2 the maximum range of the a/c.

I may have missed this bit, so let me ask again: Is it a true statement
that, so long as I have the required equipment, I can exercise my FAA IFR
privileges in Europe so long as I am flying an N-registered a/c?

Thanks.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Thomas Borchert]

Ron,

> Is it a true statement
> that, so long as I have the required equipment, I can exercise my FAA IFR
> privileges in Europe so long as I am flying an N-registered a/c?
>

Yes.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

> I'v flown a couple of Austrian-registered Diamond Stars here in the US.
> They had ADF and DME. My Star was built in Austria and has DME, but I
> didn't have them install the ADF (although the ground plane and
> attachment pad for the ADF antenna are there).
>

Yes, but did they also have the G1000?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:14:03 +0100, Peter > wrote:

>
>Ron Rosenfeld > wrote
>
>>I may have missed this bit, so let me ask again: Is it a true statement
>>that, so long as I have the required equipment, I can exercise my FAA IFR
>>privileges in Europe so long as I am flying an N-registered a/c?
>
>Yes.
>
>This link might have useful info for European IFR
>
> http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr-flying/ifr-flying.html

Thank you for that link.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:18:19 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Ron,
>
>> Is it a true statement
>> that, so long as I have the required equipment, I can exercise my FAA IFR
>> privileges in Europe so long as I am flying an N-registered a/c?
>>
>
>Yes.

Thank you for that information.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[[email protected]]

No, they were steam gauge models. The DA42 (european diesel version)
with the G-1000 does have an ADF box - JAA IFR certification was
delayed a bit because of it.

Steve

[gwengler]

Are those long range tanks factory installed or do you need a ferry
permit? I am amazed about the range! With 160KTS you can fly 2400NM
in 15 hrs. by using 8.7gph (no reserves). Is that realistic?
Gerd

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 26 Aug 2005 06:39:51 -0700, "gwengler" > wrote:

>Are those long range tanks factory installed or do you need a ferry
>permit? I am amazed about the range! With 160KTS you can fly 2400NM
>in 15 hrs. by using 8.7gph (no reserves). Is that realistic?
>Gerd

The standard tankage is around 102 gallons. With the long-range tanks that
is increased to 130 gallons. They are an integral part of the wing --
basically an extra fuel tank bay outboard of the normal fuel tanks. I
believe the STC for this is held by Monroy, but the factory will do the
install on a new airplance; or it can be done aftermarket. In neither case
is a ferry permit required.

The longest trip I could see myself planning would be CYYT-LPL which is
about 1232 NM. However, once factoring in the distance to possible
alternates; and possible headwinds; it'd be nice to have the extra fuel.

A local surgeon took his O2 around the world. He had both the long-range
tanks as well as a ferry tank. He did require the permit for the ferry
tank.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Julian Scarfe]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...

> In Germany, ADFs are required for IFR training aircraft. This is
> different from the UK, as Peter posted.
>
> DMEs are required for IFR flying. No substitution by GPS. Yes, I
> know...

Related question then...

Some German airports (with class F) appear only to have GPS approaches,
which, according to the plates, require some sort of qualification. Is
there a practical way for a foreign pilot not based in Germany to get that
qualification?

Julian

[gwengler]

Wow! What a great airplane!
Gerd (T182T)

[Thomas Borchert]

Julian,

> Some German airports (with class F) appear only to have GPS approaches,
> which, according to the plates, require some sort of qualification. Is
> there a practical way for a foreign pilot not based in Germany to get that
> qualification?
>

Excellent question. I'm just starting on my German IR, so I don't know. I
believe it is a simple check out/endorsement from a CFI.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 27 Aug 2005 05:50:22 -0700, "gwengler" > wrote:

>Wow! What a great airplane!
>Gerd (T182T)

And if I only had a spare $500,000 USD ...


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)