A title problem, but I want to buy. How handle?

[Michael Horowitz]

I located a plane I'd like to buy; unfortunately somewhere along the
way the FAA didn't get some paperwork and the current owner didn't get
clear title.
Is there anything I can do to 'buy' the a/c and start working on it,
or do I have to sit on my hands? - Mike

[Darrel Toepfer]

Michael Horowitz wrote:

> I located a plane I'd like to buy; unfortunately somewhere along the
> way the FAA didn't get some paperwork and the current owner didn't get
> clear title.
> Is there anything I can do to 'buy' the a/c and start working on it,
> or do I have to sit on my hands? - Mike

AOPA...

[Juan Jimenez]

You have any idea how hard it can be to clear up some of these problems? You
can't 'buy' something that doesn't belong to the person selling it to you.

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>
> I located a plane I'd like to buy; unfortunately somewhere along the
> way the FAA didn't get some paperwork and the current owner didn't get
> clear title.
> Is there anything I can do to 'buy' the a/c and start working on it,
> or do I have to sit on my hands? - Mike
>

[BTIZ]

sometimes it is a matter of incomplete paperwork or no paperwork filed by
the lender to the FAA to release a lien.

I found a glider with the same problem, a lien more than 25 years old that
was not cleared. (Thanx AOPA) Luckily I was able to find the original bank
based on the lien papers that AOPA found and it was still at the same
address and phone number although it had changed names a few times over the
years. I spoke directly (long distance) with the loan officer and explained
the dilemma. I sent him the FAA Forms, he signed them and sent the ORIGINALS
to the FAA and the copy to me. The lien was released and we received notice
that the title was clear.

A mechanics lien would have been tougher.

THEN we went and bought the glider.

Trying to do that after buying the glider is risk on your part. Not a good
idea. And without a clear title you may not be able to get a loan.

BT

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>
> I located a plane I'd like to buy; unfortunately somewhere along the
> way the FAA didn't get some paperwork and the current owner didn't get
> clear title.
> Is there anything I can do to 'buy' the a/c and start working on it,
> or do I have to sit on my hands? - Mike
>

[RST Engineering]

Find a willing attorney, put the money into his escrow with both buyer and
seller giving him instructions as to what will happen to the money at what
point in the title clearup and what will happen if the title doesn't clear
in some reasonable (a month or two) time.

More problematic is what to do with the "working" you want to do in the
meantime if the title doesn't clear. You say the improvements are worth a
thousand dollars. The current "owner" says the improvements have damaged
the aircraft in the amount of two thousand dollars. Now the fight begins.

I'd suggest that the two of you draft language as to what "working on it"
means and let the attorney draft it into legalese that keeps both of your
butts out of a sling.

Jim



"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>
> I located a plane I'd like to buy; unfortunately somewhere along the
> way the FAA didn't get some paperwork and the current owner didn't get
> clear title.
> Is there anything I can do to 'buy' the a/c and start working on it,
> or do I have to sit on my hands? - Mike
>

[OtisWinslow]

Don't buy it until all the issues are worked out and the seller
has a clear chain of title. It will cause you trouble when you go
to sell it.

Call Aero Space Reports in OKC. They're a title and escrow
company. They can help you work through the title problems
and they can also sell you title insurance.

What specific title problem is it?


"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>
> I located a plane I'd like to buy; unfortunately somewhere along the
> way the FAA didn't get some paperwork and the current owner didn't get
> clear title.
> Is there anything I can do to 'buy' the a/c and start working on it,
> or do I have to sit on my hands? - Mike
>

[Robert M. Gary]

The FAA does not keep title for aircraft. They only register them. Are
you just saying the current owner never changed the registration or are
you saying that someone has a lean against the plane?
An aircraft registration is NOT the same thing as a certified title of
a car from DMV. The FAA does not establish ownership (and it says so
quite clearly on the reg app).

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Why not just use the AOPA escrow service instead. Seems a lot cheaper
than using an attorney.

[Dave Stadt]

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
...
> Don't buy it until all the issues are worked out and the seller
> has a clear chain of title. It will cause you trouble when you go
> to sell it.
>
> Call Aero Space Reports in OKC. They're a title and escrow
> company. They can help you work through the title problems
> and they can also sell you title insurance.
>
> What specific title problem is it?

What title?

[Michael Horowitz]

"OtisWinslow" > wrote:

>What specific title problem is it?
>

The FAA Registry shows ownership in the name of the person who owned
it three 'generations' ago. We believe we have a collection of Bills
of Sale, but no one told the FAA. - Mike

[Juan Jimenez]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The FAA does not keep title for aircraft. They only register them. Are
> you just saying the current owner never changed the registration or are
> you saying that someone has a lean against the plane?
> An aircraft registration is NOT the same thing as a certified title of
> a car from DMV. The FAA does not establish ownership (and it says so
> quite clearly on the reg app).
>
> -Robert

Yes, it does. By refusing to process a registration that does not meet their
requirements, they are essentially doing the same thing.

[OtisWinslow]

I believe if you have the sequential original BOS's to establish the chain
to the last owner that you can file them all together along with the one
transfering
legal ownership to you. Sounds like it just hasn't been reregistered each
time.
Have you visited with your local FSDO?


"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> "OtisWinslow" > wrote:
>
>>What specific title problem is it?
>>
>
> The FAA Registry shows ownership in the name of the person who owned
> it three 'generations' ago. We believe we have a collection of Bills
> of Sale, but no one told the FAA. - Mike
>
>

[OtisWinslow]

AOPA no longer does escrow. They do have a service where they
will provide you with all the records on it though: accident/incident,
airworthiness history, registration history, lien search. It's $95 if
I remember correctly. I've used it each time I've bought a plane.



"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Why not just use the AOPA escrow service instead. Seems a lot cheaper
> than using an attorney.
>

[OtisWinslow]

There is no "title" as such. FAA maintains a recording of filed
documents that establish the chain of ownership and they maintain
registration records.


>
> What title?
>
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

This I know. Their 'established chain of ownership' really isn't. It's
more a registration of the person claiming to be the owner.

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
m...
> There is no "title" as such. FAA maintains a recording of filed
> documents that establish the chain of ownership and they maintain
> registration records.
>
>
> >
> > What title?
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Michael Horowitz]

The FSDO offered to give me a number in OKC. - Mike
You're probably correct that it just hasn't been re-registered each
time - Mike


"OtisWinslow" > wrote:

>I believe if you have the sequential original BOS's to establish the chain
>to the last owner that you can file them all together along with the one
>transfering
>legal ownership to you. Sounds like it just hasn't been reregistered each
>time.
>Have you visited with your local FSDO?
>
>
>"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
>> "OtisWinslow" > wrote:
>>
>>>What specific title problem is it?
>>>
>>
>> The FAA Registry shows ownership in the name of the person who owned
>> it three 'generations' ago. We believe we have a collection of Bills
>> of Sale, but no one told the FAA. - Mike
>>
>>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

No, they do not establish ownership. There is no title on an aircraft,
no pink sheet, no title to sign over. You can put any name on the
registration you want. You cannot sue to change a registration, etc.

[Robert M. Gary]

Sounds like a no brainer. From your original post it sounded like
someone had a cliam or lean against the plane. The FAA doesn't try to
establish who owns the plane. There is no title.

[Robert M. Gary]

But since FAA registration tells you NOTHING about who owns the plane,
what is your point?

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> But since FAA registration tells you NOTHING about who owns the plane,
> what is your point?

Hard to know what your point is as nobody has any idea who you are
replying to. Three posts in a row from you that make no sense at all.

[Juan Jimenez]

By refusing to process a registration application and bill of sale they
essentially do the same. Try to convince a finance company the airplane is
yours and they should give you money against it when you can't put your name
on the registration. And try to get a registration change from an estate
without a legal document saying the people signing are the estate executors,
for example. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> No, they do not establish ownership. There is no title on an aircraft,
> no pink sheet, no title to sign over. You can put any name on the
> registration you want. You cannot sue to change a registration, etc.
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Under what situation will they refuse to handle the change of
registration? I've never heard of this before. I've bought airplanes
from people who have never been on the registration before, the FAA
doesn't care.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Gee, on deja.com they are all lined up (the reply box does not provide
the option to quote original". So Juan said..

"You have any idea how hard it can be to clear up some of these
problems? You
can't 'buy' something that doesn't belong to the person selling it to
you."

Which makes no sense because there is nothing regarding the FAA
registration that determins ownership.

Newps, you might want to check your news browser. All the replys show
up nicely under the original post to me in a tree layout.

[Dave Butler]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Newps, you might want to check your news browser. All the replys show
> up nicely under the original post to me in a tree layout.

You shouldn't depend on everyone having the same view of the ordering of
postings that you have. Each news *server* is independent and may receive
postings in different order. This fact has nothing to do with the choice of news
*client* software.

Please include a little context (as I have above, for example) so we can see
what you are replying to.

Thanks.

Dave

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
> Newps, you might want to check your news browser. All the replys show
> up nicely under the original post to me in a tree layout.

They would for me too if I had all the posts displayed. I only display
new posts. Who wants to wade thru all that crap?

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/29/2005 06:31, Dave Butler wrote:

> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Newps, you might want to check your news browser. All the replys show
>> up nicely under the original post to me in a tree layout.
>
> You shouldn't depend on everyone having the same view of the ordering of
> postings that you have. Each news *server* is independent and may receive
> postings in different order. This fact has nothing to do with the choice of news
> *client* software.

Yes it does. News postings are threaded. Each posting retains a headers
which identifies it's thread and parent posting. Most news reader clients
look at these headers and provide the user the option of organizing the
posts accordingly.

I've only used 4 or 5 different news reader clients over the years, but
they've all provided this feature. I wouldn't consider using one that
didn't, but that's perhaps just personal preference.

>
> Please include a little context (as I have above, for example) so we can see
> what you are replying to.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dave


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Dave Butler]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 8/29/2005 06:31, Dave Butler wrote:

>> You shouldn't depend on everyone having the same view of the ordering
>> of postings that you have. Each news *server* is independent and may
>> receive postings in different order. This fact has nothing to do with
>> the choice of news *client* software.
>
> Yes it does. News postings are threaded. Each posting retains a headers
> which identifies it's thread and parent posting. Most news reader clients
> look at these headers and provide the user the option of organizing the
> posts accordingly.

Not wanting to start a ****ing context here, but your direct contradiction of my
statement is wrong. Your choice of news client *does* have exactly nothing to do
with the fact that news servers are independent and may receive postings in
different orders.

> I've only used 4 or 5 different news reader clients over the years, but
> they've all provided this feature. I wouldn't consider using one that
> didn't, but that's perhaps just personal preference.

That's my preference, too. If the posting that is replied to hasn't been seen
yet by my news server, no news client software can show it. I'm not sure whether
that's what happened here, though.

>>
>> Please include a little context (as I have above, for example) so we
>> can see what you are replying to.

....and I still think this is good advice.

Anyway, this meta-discussion is off topic and I'd like to bring it to a close.

Dave

[Mark Hansen]

On 8/29/2005 07:53, Dave Butler wrote:

> Mark Hansen wrote:
>> On 8/29/2005 06:31, Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>> You shouldn't depend on everyone having the same view of the ordering
>>> of postings that you have. Each news *server* is independent and may
>>> receive postings in different order. This fact has nothing to do with
>>> the choice of news *client* software.
>>
>> Yes it does. News postings are threaded. Each posting retains a headers
>> which identifies it's thread and parent posting. Most news reader clients
>> look at these headers and provide the user the option of organizing the
>> posts accordingly.
>
> Not wanting to start a ****ing context here, but your direct contradiction of my
> statement is wrong. Your choice of news client *does* have exactly nothing to do
> with the fact that news servers are independent and may receive postings in
> different orders.

True, but the order with which the news server receives the posting is of
less consequence when the client threads the postings in the correct order.

>
>> I've only used 4 or 5 different news reader clients over the years, but
>> they've all provided this feature. I wouldn't consider using one that
>> didn't, but that's perhaps just personal preference.
>
> That's my preference, too. If the posting that is replied to hasn't been seen
> yet by my news server, no news client software can show it. I'm not sure whether
> that's what happened here, though.

I've never experienced that problem (in 15 years, anyway).

>
>>>
>>> Please include a little context (as I have above, for example) so we
>>> can see what you are replying to.
>
> ...and I still think this is good advice.
>
> Anyway, this meta-discussion is off topic and I'd like to bring it to a close.
>
> Dave


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Montblack]

("Dave Butler" wrote)
[snip]
> Please include a little context (as I have above, for example) so we can
> see what you are replying to.


The key word here is "little." <g>

Wait a minute. R.M.G. actually "over-trimmed" ...a first!

Forget the (gentle) rebuking - give that man a medal instead :-)


Montblack

[Juan Jimenez]

If an airplane is owned by a person who dies and the registration is changed
to the estate of the deceased based on a court order, the only way the
registration can be changed when the aircraft is sold is if the legal
executors of the estate sign the bill of sale -- all of them if there are
more than one. I know this first hand because a man who is being sentenced
this week in Arizona tried to steal an aircraft this way. He kept the money
and then tried to do a change of registration with only one of the estate
executors' signatures. Then he tried it again, this time signing it himself.
Both times the FAA refused to process the change of ownership. They most
certainly do care.

Juan

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Under what situation will they refuse to handle the change of
> registration? I've never heard of this before. I've bought airplanes
> from people who have never been on the registration before, the FAA
> doesn't care.
>
> -Robert
>

[[email protected]]

Michael Horowitz > wrote:
> "OtisWinslow" > wrote:

> >What specific title problem is it?
> >

> The FAA Registry shows ownership in the name of the person who owned
> it three 'generations' ago. We believe we have a collection of Bills
> of Sale, but no one told the FAA. - Mike

Simple... ask a lawyer first. :-)

Find that person, and have them "quit claim" it to you.


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 233 Young Eagles!

[Gig 601XL Builder]

> wrote in message ...
> Michael Horowitz > wrote:
>> "OtisWinslow" > wrote:
>
>> >What specific title problem is it?
>> >
>
>> The FAA Registry shows ownership in the name of the person who owned
>> it three 'generations' ago. We believe we have a collection of Bills
>> of Sale, but no one told the FAA. - Mike
>
> Simple... ask a lawyer first. :-)
>
> Find that person, and have them "quit claim" it to you.
>
Yep, A couple of years ago someone bought a Cessna 195 my Grandfather had
owned back in the early 50's. He called tracked me down and called and asked
if I would sign a quit claim. I said sure but you owe me a flight after you
ever in the area. About six months later I got a call from him and he flew
in and we went up for about 45 minutes. A very cool plane.