Dimensions NEEDED

[jerry wass]

Anybody know how the cylinder studs/ thru-bolts are located on the old

E-185-225 series Cont. Engines ?? Usually one of 2 ways, either a bolt
circle diameter with so many degrees offset from a horiz or vert C/L of
the bore of the cylinder-----Or, rectangular measurements from a horiz.
and /or vert. line .

Thanx ahead 'o time,

muddled motor man

[Scott Derrick]

I have a pusher airplane with a nose oil cooler.

I am replacing the existing heavy hydraulic type(rubber/braided steel)
oil cooler lines with lighter metal lines. Either soft Aluminum or soft
copper 1/2 lines.

First question. I would like to use the lines as my ground return and
remove the 2 AWG wire I have now. Good idea?

Second question. Which would be better, or possibly which would be
worse and why? Copper or Aluminum.. Aluminum would be lighter but
copper offers a better ground return(less resistance). I have a big
engine and the starter needs all the current I can muster.

Scott

[abripl]

> Think about replacing your 2 AWG with 1AWG aluminum instead.

Aluminum wire has a bad habit of forming an insulative oxidation layer.
But you could use the anti oxidant paste they sell for that problem.

[RST Engineering]

"bashir salamti" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:19:03 -0600, Scott Derrick >
> wrote:
> :
> :First question. I would like to use the lines as my ground return and
> :remove the 2 AWG wire I have now. Good idea?
>
> Strikes me as a Bad idea.

Strikes me as a double unplus BAD idea.


>
> The problem, as I see it, is the posibility of a small short creating
> an ark,

I'm sure Noah could use the ark.



> (Most engine fires are fueled by oil, not by gas.)
>
> How much weight are you going to save going this route? Think about
> replacing your 2 AWG with 1AWG aluminum instead.

And I'd also do the calculation to see just how much weight loss there is
between #2 copper and #1 aluminum. I'd bet you aren't saving a hell of a
lot and getting the aluminum oxidation problem on top of it.

Jim

[[email protected]]

also look at early o-470s. Share the same cylinders.

jerry wass wrote:
> Anybody know how the cylinder studs/ thru-bolts are located on the old
>
> E-185-225 series Cont. Engines ?? Usually one of 2 ways, either a bolt
> circle diameter with so many degrees offset from a horiz or vert C/L of
> the bore of the cylinder-----Or, rectangular measurements from a horiz.
> and /or vert. line .
>
> Thanx ahead 'o time,
>
> muddled motor man

[jerry wass]

jerry wass wrote:
> Anybody know how the cylinder studs/ thru-bolts are located on the old
>
> E-185-225 series Cont. Engines ?? Usually one of 2 ways, either a bolt
> circle diameter with so many degrees offset from a horiz or vert C/L of
> the bore of the cylinder-----Or, rectangular measurements from a horiz.
> and /or vert. line .
>
> Thanx ahead 'o time,
>
> muddled motor man

Well it is on a bolt circle, 6.375 " to be exact---NOW if I just knew
the degrees of separation, I could make me some shims..

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Scott Derrick > wrote:
>I have a pusher airplane with a nose oil cooler.
>
>I am replacing the existing heavy hydraulic type(rubber/braided steel)
>oil cooler lines with lighter metal lines. Either soft Aluminum or soft
>copper 1/2 lines.
>
>First question. I would like to use the lines as my ground return and
>remove the 2 AWG wire I have now. Good idea?

*DAMN*STUPID* one!

Consider the cross-section area of #2 wire,
then compare with the cross-section area of the walls of the tubing.

Without considering what happens if/when a line _breaks_.

"Instant" spark across the gap, With a ready supply of fuel being delivered
to the scene.
>
>Second question. Which would be better, or possibly which would be
>worse and why? Copper or Aluminum.. Aluminum would be lighter but
>copper offers a better ground return(less resistance). I have a big
>engine and the starter needs all the current I can muster.

For the same current load, you need (minimum) 1 gauge larger wire, if AL,
vs what you need for Cu. That equates to circa 30% more material, by
volume. Which negates a fair bit of weight difference.

Your last statement *should* answer your question. for max current
transfer efficiency, use the best conductor you can, at the largest size
you can justify.


>
>Scott

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
karel > wrote:
>
>"Robert Bonomi" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Scott Derrick > wrote:
>>>I have a pusher airplane with a nose oil cooler.
>>>
>>>I am replacing the existing heavy hydraulic type(rubber/braided steel)
>>>oil cooler lines with lighter metal lines. Either soft Aluminum or soft
>>>copper 1/2 lines.
>>>
>>>First question. I would like to use the lines as my ground return and
>>>remove the 2 AWG wire I have now. Good idea?
>>
>> *DAMN*STUPID* one!
>
>Perhaps, yes.
>Careful consideration is required, at least.
>Which is exactly what O/P is doing.
>
>> Consider the cross-section area of #2 wire,
>> then compare with the cross-section area of the walls of the tubing.
>>
>> Without considering what happens if/when a line _breaks_.
>
>Agreed.
>But is this any worse than a dedicated electrical ground cable breaking
>loose?

HELL YES it is!!

The difference being the proximity of flammable materials to the point
where the sparks are being generated.

>The point might be that oil lines are more prone to vibration
>than a length of cable of whatever gauge.
>
>> "Instant" spark across the gap, With a ready supply of fuel being
>> delivered
>> to the scene.
>
>The fuel being lubricating oil, I fancy a tremendous lot of sparks
>would be required to actually make it fire.

You, sir, "don't know what you DON'T KNOW" about the size of the sparks
that get generated when a conductor carrying multiple tens of amps
is unexpectedly severed. (#2AWG copper is rated for in excess of 125 Amps.)

OR how easily 'lubricating oils' can be "convinced" to combust. No, they
are not very 'volatile' -- so they don't vaporize by themselves -- but
they 'atomize' fairly easily, which can, and often does, make for an explosive
mixture.

>
>>>Second question. Which would be better, or possibly which would be
>>>worse and why? Copper or Aluminum.. Aluminum would be lighter but
>>>copper offers a better ground return(less resistance). I have a big
>>>engine and the starter needs all the current I can muster.
>
>Like all other respondents, I feel copper must be preferred.
>No arguments to add, though, just agree with all given.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:46:37 -0000, "karel" >
wrote:

>
>"Robert Bonomi" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> karel > wrote:
>>>
>>>"Robert Bonomi" > wrote in message
...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Scott Derrick > wrote:
>>>>>I have a pusher airplane with a nose oil cooler.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am replacing the existing heavy hydraulic type(rubber/braided steel)
>>>>>oil cooler lines with lighter metal lines. Either soft Aluminum or soft
>>>>>copper 1/2 lines.
>>>>>
>>>>>First question. I would like to use the lines as my ground return and
>>>>>remove the 2 AWG wire I have now. Good idea?
>>>>
>>>> *DAMN*STUPID* one!
>>>
>>>Perhaps, yes.
>>>Careful consideration is required, at least.
>>>Which is exactly what O/P is doing.
>>>
>>>> Consider the cross-section area of #2 wire,
>>>> then compare with the cross-section area of the walls of the tubing.
>>>>
>>>> Without considering what happens if/when a line _breaks_.
>>>
>>>Agreed.
>>>But is this any worse than a dedicated electrical ground cable breaking
>>>loose?
>>
>> HELL YES it is!!
>>
>> The difference being the proximity of flammable materials to the point
>> where the sparks are being generated.
>>
>>>The point might be that oil lines are more prone to vibration
>>>than a length of cable of whatever gauge.
>>>
>>>> "Instant" spark across the gap, With a ready supply of fuel being
>>>> delivered
>>>> to the scene.
>>>
>>>The fuel being lubricating oil, I fancy a tremendous lot of sparks
>>>would be required to actually make it fire.
>>
>> You, sir, "don't know what you DON'T KNOW" about the size of the sparks
>> that get generated when a conductor carrying multiple tens of amps
>> is unexpectedly severed. (#2AWG copper is rated for in excess of 125
>> Amps.)
>
>I'll gladly allow I've much to learn,
>that's why I'm hanging around here.
>
>Yet it seems clear to me that, in the average GA aircraft,
>tens of amps will only be drawn during starting
>(which admittedly is a strong moment for vibration)

Actually make that HUNDREDS of amps.
>
>> OR how easily 'lubricating oils' can be "convinced" to combust. No, they
>> are not very 'volatile' -- so they don't vaporize by themselves -- but
>> they 'atomize' fairly easily, which can, and often does, make for an
>> explosive
>> mixture.
>
>On this point I'm grateful to learn from you.
>KA
>

[Smitty Two]

In article >,
Bashir Salamti > wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:01:47 -0000, "karel" >
> wrote:
> :
> :The fuel being lubricating oil, I fancy a tremendous lot of sparks
> :would be required to actually make it fire.
>
> Actually, no.
>
> It is not just lubricating oil, it is hot - around the temperature of
> boiling water. And it is under 50 PSI, or so. So a small leak may
> not be a drip, it is rather an atomizing spray. If there is a small
> arc present at the same time it will certainly catch fire. Because it
> is heavy bodied, there will be a percentage that adheres to the
> surrounding surfaces, like napalm, rather than vaporizing and blowing
> away - although in side the cabin the wind will be rather less than in
> an engine compartment.
>
> The same is true with cooling lines for a liquid cooled engine.
> Glycol will burn nicely if you give it half a chance.

I'm not disagreeing with anything that you or anyone else has said on
this topic, but I will point out what appears to me to be a small hole
in your logic. If the oil line were to develop a pin-hole -- as opposed
to severing -- there might well be an "atomizing spray," but there won't
be an arc, because, obviously, the electrical path would still be
continuous.

[Morgans]

"Scott Derrick" > wrote in message
...
> I have a pusher airplane with a nose oil cooler.
>
> I am replacing the existing heavy hydraulic type(rubber/braided steel)
> oil cooler lines with lighter metal lines. Either soft Aluminum or soft
> copper 1/2 lines.

I would NEVER use copper for an important thing like an oil line, on
anything that has a motor, and vibration. Copper will work harden from the
vibration, and fail. Not "if" but "when." It will happen, if there is any
possibility of flexing.
--
Jim in NC

[Don Hammer]

>
>I would NEVER use copper for an important thing like an oil line, on
>anything that has a motor, and vibration. Copper will work harden from the
>vibration, and fail. Not "if" but "when." It will happen, if there is any
>possibility of flexing.


That's two things you shouldn never do. Copper lines and use any
fluid line as a ground.

[Morgans]

"Don Hammer" > wrote in message
news:1126039198.a572e3b81309f32dba604a668d4c9128@t eranews...
>
> >
> >I would NEVER use copper for an important thing like an oil line, on
> >anything that has a motor, and vibration. Copper will work harden from
the
> >vibration, and fail. Not "if" but "when." It will happen, if there is
any
> >possibility of flexing.
>
>
> That's two things you shouldn never do. Copper lines and use any
> fluid line as a ground.

Yep. One reason is all would need, and either one of ours would do it.
--
Jim in NC

[Smitty Two]

In article >,
Bashir Salamti > wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:48:06 -0700, Smitty Two
>
> :
> :I'm not disagreeing with anything that you or anyone else has said on
> :this topic, but I will point out what appears to me to be a small hole
> :in your logic. If the oil line were to develop a pin-hole -- as opposed
> :to severing -- there might well be an "atomizing spray," but there won't
> :be an arc, because, obviously, the electrical path would still be
> :continuous.
>
> I posted this elsewhere but somehow I think this thread is split in
> two parts so I will again.
>
> He's talking about using the tube as a ground. Imagine a small
> positive wire, to a position light for example, rubs on it.
> Eventually it rubs a small hole in the insulation, and creates a small
> electrical arc to the grounding tube. The arc slowly erodes the
> copper, like an EDM (Electric Discharge Machining) arc would.
> Eventually you get that pinhole, spraying hot oil right into your
> electric arc.
>
> Think of what happens when you spray WD-40 into a cigarette lighter.
> Kind of like that.
>

Ah, yes, now that I've reread the whole thread, I see my confusion. By
golly, you did originally speculate on the EDM concept. However, another
respondent, Mr. Bonomi, offered that if the line broke completely
through, there would be sparking across the gap. It was his scenario
that I was envisioning when I wrote the above. I guess there's more than
one way for an airplane to catch on fire.

[John Halpenny]

Smitty Two wrote:

> In article >,
> Bashir Salamti > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:48:06 -0700, Smitty Two
> >
> > :
> > :I'm not disagreeing with anything that you or anyone else has said on
> > :this topic, but I will point out what appears to me to be a small hole
> > :in your logic. If the oil line were to develop a pin-hole -- as opposed
> > :to severing -- there might well be an "atomizing spray," but there won't
> > :be an arc, because, obviously, the electrical path would still be
> > :continuous.
> >
> > I posted this elsewhere but somehow I think this thread is split in
> > two parts so I will again.
> >
> > He's talking about using the tube as a ground. Imagine a small
> > positive wire, to a position light for example, rubs on it.
> > Eventually it rubs a small hole in the insulation, and creates a small
> > electrical arc to the grounding tube. The arc slowly erodes the
> > copper, like an EDM (Electric Discharge Machining) arc would.
> > Eventually you get that pinhole, spraying hot oil right into your
> > electric arc.
> >
> > Think of what happens when you spray WD-40 into a cigarette lighter.
> > Kind of like that.
> >
>
> Ah, yes, now that I've reread the whole thread, I see my confusion. By
> golly, you did originally speculate on the EDM concept. However, another
> respondent, Mr. Bonomi, offered that if the line broke completely
> through, there would be sparking across the gap. It was his scenario
> that I was envisioning when I wrote the above. I guess there's more than
> one way for an airplane to catch on fire.

Of course, if the line did not break completely, it would be a higher
resistance point which would get hot, just where the oil is coming out.


--

John Halpenny

Truth is stranger than fiction.
This is why writers and readers are more comfortable with fiction.